Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[ScottPuss20]

On AC, you can drive on the limit or slightly beyond and control the car with steering/throttle modulation in a very similar way to that example video. And you can feel what the tyres are doing in the FFB, WAY more than you can in GT7. That’s why people are using sims like AC as the benchmark, because it is a lot closer to real life.

It's closer to AC than GT Sport ever was.

 

[extreme car]

The GT86 certainly still has a loose rear end. From other videos on the channel, the guy either has Pilot Sport 4 or 4S. There was no clutch dump of such. He was simply giving it gas in 2nd to break rear traction and starting a slide.

So more assumption on what tyre equipped on his car? Video you posted is a guy who has no idea what he's doing hence the title, his steering and throttle control to initiate the drift is all wrong. All i see in that video is him losing control than drifting.

I asked him to recreate it on other cars. I'm sure the GR86 has similar capabilities to brake traction and drift on higher grade tires since its extremely easy to do so in 3rd gear on Pilot Sport 4. Also, any car can exit a corner at high speed and slide wide. If cars had unlimited grip at higher speeds, no one would be crashing.

I'm sure he can in 3rd gear but, @tedaxe did it in 5th gear low RPM not 3rd. Show me a low hp low torque car with higher grade tyre that can break their traction on power at high gear low rpm.

I saw the video, you were bogging down and not overpowering the tires.

If you enter and exit the corner in 5th gear. I'll concede. Power sliding is exiting at high speed. Drift is holding and maintaining rpm and being able to rev out the engine.

Well it better be bogging down by the end or GT7 would have another major flaw with their physics.

Power sliding is a form of a drift, it's one of the many different techniques to initiate your drift. I'll record the GR86 doing the full drift in 5th I reckon I can do it in GT7.

 

[Skinny McLean]

Your times are on level of person who never played racing game. Maybe Im missing something here.

Reminds me of that Stephen Hawking guy that couldn't stop talking about black holes while never having been inside one.

 

[SPOOLMAN]

Speaking of physics. Anyone else having issue driving the Porsche Carrera GT on the limit? Damn car kept me on knifes edge. The car will snap out with the slightest blip of the throttle.



On the other hand. The physics in the rain feel absolutely spot on.

 

[dabz343]

I'm no physics expert, but if you ask my opinion, they got their base physics for RWD production car mostly correct until you reach the mid point of a corner and start applying throttle, and to me the mid point to exit is where RWD car suppose to shine compared to their AWD and FF counterpart.

Sry, I forgot to reply to this. Yes, you are so right...the only disconnect I have is that some AWDs are beastly on exit...it just depends on how you have settled the car mid corner...a 993 turbo has startling grip on exit,...if you've managed that rear on entry!

 

[driftnick13]

You mention real life, yes, but your statement regarding the list of experiences implies that AC is a sort of benchmark to go by. When I mentioned my troubles in AC, other forum members challenged me on it and later down the line you were making arguments for it.

Just like your previous post about not be able to slide the car in AC like the videos you linked I can easily break traction in second gear.

I saw the video, you were bogging down and not overpowering the tires.

If you enter and exit the corner in 5th gear. I'll concede. Power sliding is exiting at high speed. Drift is holding and maintaining rpm and being able to rev out the engine.

It's hilarious you look at that video and think it looks normal.

I defend GT because my real world experience and it line up. Understeer in AC is a major flaw holding it back. You can tune it out, but it's suffering with the same issues ppl are accusing GT7 oh having.

No amount of tuning in GT7 can fix the flaws in the physics and FFB, you can change how the car behaves but it still won't behave in a realistic way not to mention you can't change the FFB at all.

 

[SlugsterOne]

More sim and less cade please. That is all 👍

I'm on the wrong thread - but need help please.
I lost everything after the great 1.08/9 update. I've registered my complaint with the form and sent it off - but nothing in reply? Do I have to uninstall and reinstall again? I was up to Menu Book 37 before it all went. I can't even start again! I'm left with the cafe, the used car showroom and the garage - nothing else. All the cafe has is archive files and trophies. So far, all I have to show for my purchase is now a $100 beer coaster! Can anyone please help? Much appreciated.

 

[GTboyz]

Speaking of physics. Anyone else having issue driving the Porsche Carrera GT on the limit? Damn car kept me on knifes edge. The car will snap out with the slightest blip of the throttle.

Yeah it's a scary car, then again it lives up to it's real life counterpart lol

 

[Johnnn]

I'm on the wrong thread - but need help please.
I lost everything after the great 1.08/9 update. I've registered my complaint with the form and sent it off - but nothing in reply? Do I have to uninstall and reinstall again? I was up to Menu Book 37 before it all went. I can't even start again! I'm left with the cafe, the used car showroom and the garage - nothing else. All the cafe has is archive files and trophies. So far, all I have to show for my purchase is now a $100 beer coaster! Can anyone please help? Much appreciated.

You can't blame physics for that.

Yeah it's a scary car, then again it lives up to it's real life counterpart lol

I think all RWD cars are almost the same. You need to be careful with your throttle. Which sounds correct, right? I am pretty sure I've never played anything so sensitive but from physics perspective, it makes sense. I am not sure what could be wrong with the physics, you step on the throttle and rear wheels starts to spin. It's not completely bad, right?

I am not sure what could be broken with the physics. More gradual grip loss could be better but it's not necessary. ACC had terrible fall off for more than 2 years and nobody cared. Maybe bigger slip angle window? Or something else is broken? Overall it's first GT with dream physics to me but it's very hard to play, which is completely new in this series and I like it.

What people would fix in the current framework? If some people compare it with old iRacing, I understand what is the main problem. Still, iRacing worked with it for years. Why they even created it that way?

And Doug with sport mode.

 

[NikNakTobasco]

In this video (1.40 ) Tidge says PD current priority is the snap oversteer issue. So it is an issue then.

 

[Klik]

 

[nfsp2kTW]

So it was... In AC, it fulfilled people's dream of being Ayrton Senna ;
Back in the GT7, it dawned on me that I was just an ordinary person.

 

[kilesa4568]

In this video (1.40 ) Tidge says PD current priority is the snap oversteer issue. So it is an issue then.

Nah, he's wrong. Snap oversteer is just a simple case of operator error.

How strange is the excuse, though? They didn't want to touch the physics because of the BoP, even though the BoP is a long way from being fair for the lion's share of cars? It looks like they'll be doing some extra long hours working on marrying them all up to newer physics.

Either way, it looks like I'll finally get another crack at the game.

 

[synon]

You mean when I said this...


...the one in which I clearly list reality? The same post in which I went into this much detail on the actual physics involved...

"You need to factor in both the driven gear (1st in this case), the final drive, and the wheel itself. which for a GT86 would be as follows:

Assuming Peak Torque. 205Nm * 3.63 (1st) * 3.43 (Final) = 2,552 and then divide that by 2 for the single wheel, which would be 1,276 Nm

You then multiply that by the wheel radius (which means you have to work that out as well), which for a GT86 is 0.312m so 1,276 Nm * 0.312m = 398 Nm

However, that's not the end of it, as you also then need to know the vertical load at each corner to see how much grip it has to overcome.

A GT86 weighs 1,258kgs and has a static weight distribution of 53:47, and if we assume a tyre/surface mU value of 1.0 and that you getting to 50:50 distribution under acceleration (because I really can't be doing that math that early), it's 624kgs at the rear, between two tyres, that's 312kgs of load to overcome on each corner.

At 398 Nm, they are generating at peak torque, in first gear, enough force to overwhelm the tyre, from static they will smoke the tyre as it overcomes rolling resistance, however, the GT86 is also a peaky little bugger and that peak torque is generated right at the top of the rev range and only literally as you are above to change up.

Also worth noting is that while the loading will remain the same as you change gear, the wheel torque will reduce.

2nd: 240 NM

So from 2nd gear onwards, it can only generate enough force to overwhelm the tyre if it's partially unloaded, and that will reduce for each and every gear."

This is incorrect, the torque on the driven wheels doesn't depend on the wheel radius, and you can't directly compare the torque with the force required to overcome grip, they are different things.

 

[venancio]

You got it wrong @kilesa4568, they didn't want to touch the BoP because of weird snap overesteer (Like @Klik exemple on the Porsche) that they are looking into. What I understand from Tidgney is that they will fix weird oversteer without changing the physics and then work on BoP.

 

[Gabe777]

In my opinion PD should step up the physics in the next GT. With titles like ACC and GTR 3 coming to console, the competition is going to be hard

The next ...? That's 5 years away.

They need to fix this 70 buck game now !

 

[kilesa4568]

You got it wrong @kilesa4568, they didn't want to touch the BoP because of weird snap overesteer (Like @Klik exemple on the Porsche) that they are looking into. What I understand from Tidgney is that they will fix weird oversteer without changing the physics and then work on BoP.

I'm not shooting the messenger here but that doesn't make much sense. The snappiness (among other things) is a result of the physics and is compounded by a general lack of feedback.

Fixing it (or attempting) like you say would be putting the cart before the horse.

 

[Scaff]

This is incorrect, the torque on the driven wheels doesn't depend on the wheel radius,

Not on its own, but as a factor in gearing yes it does.

How to calculate wheel torque from engine torque – x-engineer.org

Method to calculate the wheel torque and force function of engine torque and transmission's gear ratios

x-engineer.org

and you can't directly compare the torque with the force required to overcome grip, they are different things.

I'm not, I quite clearly said I was simplifying the overall calculations, please feel free to run the detail as required.

 

[tedaxe]

A Rx-8 got 125hp and 170nm (125ft lb) of torque at 5000rpm and can still pull a powerslide with SH tires in 5th gear.
Awesome!

 

[Johnnn]

In this video (1.40 ) Tidge says PD current priority is the snap oversteer issue.

Tidge works for PD? The game is one month old and PD didn't see it before?

 

[FerrariF40]

Physics are a step up compared to GTS, but FFB feels worse.

They need to upgrade FFB urgently.

I go over curbs or grass at high speed and just feel nothing.

 

[extreme car]

The RX-8 spirit R seemed to have one of the worst snap oversteer on throttle when being pushed, definitely not a beginner friendly car in GT7. tried matching the time with the real life counterpart but no one seems to have bought one IRL, so I had to use the old type S Tsukuba lap time which is around 1.09.7xx and made an assumption Mazda did a performance revision since ie. improved their chassis, better tyre, better brakes. I think I got around the 1.08.9xx mark with the RX-8 spirit R with CS tyre. then there is the drift in 5th gear.



somehow I managed to hold the drift at around 4.5k-4.8k RPM, and when I tried to drift the 1st corner of tsukuba in 5th gear it has enough torque to spin the car at 3k RPM with full opposite lock.

 

[Td04]

The RX-8 spirit R seemed to have one of the worst snap oversteer on throttle when being pushed, definitely not a beginner friendly car in GT7. tried matching the time with the real life counterpart but no one seems to have bought one IRL, so I had to use the old type S Tsukuba lap time which is around 1.09.7xx and made an assumption Mazda did a performance revision since ie. improved their chassis, better tyre, better brakes. I think I got around the 1.08.9xx mark with the RX-8 spirit R with CS tyre. then there is the drift in 5th gear.



somehow I managed to hold the drift at around 4.5k-4.8k RPM, and when I tried to drift the 1st corner of tsukuba in 5th gear it has enough torque to spin the car at 3k RPM with full opposite lock.

Just a thing: rx8 in game has 240 hp,as Mazda claim. In real Life the car is really slow and doesn't have more than 180 hp on serious dyno. I saw some rx8 irl, doing some roll on drag against car with less than 160hp and i can assure you that Rx8 has not 240 hp.

Anyways even with real 240 hp should be impossibile powerslide on 5th Gear

 

[Monkey Man]

Tidge works for PD?

No, but he has a direct contact that he funnels feedback and potential bugs through.

 

[P_Lav]

Little video I found does a deep dive into GT7's handling. Pretty good comparison between Sport as well.

 

[chengman]

A Rx-8 got 125hp and 170nm (125ft lb) of torque at 5000rpm and can still pull a powerslide with SH tires in 5th gear.
Awesome!

I was told by people I was driving too aggressively to oversteer low power cars🤣🤣🤣🤣. 2 liter ND MX5 in real life is literally harder to drift than a 1.5 liter MX5 in GT7.

 

[extreme car]

Just a thing: rx8 in game has 240 hp,as Mazda claim. In real Life the car is really slow and doesn't have more than 180 hp on serious dyno. I saw some rx8 irl, doing some roll on drag against car with less than 160hp and i can assure you that Rx8 has not 240 hp.

Anyways even with real 240 hp should be impossibile powerslide on 5th Gear

which rx8 has 180hp dyno? series 1? cause mazda always tweak their car to make more hp every revision. first gen FD started from 250 the the power builds up to 276hp on the last series.

 

[Firestone]

So more assumption on what tyre equipped on his car? Video you posted is a guy who has no idea what he's doing hence the title, his steering and throttle control to initiate the drift is all wrong. All i see in that video is him losing control than drifting.

He has a video of his car on the lift and the tread pattern matches that of a PS4 or a PS4S. He has no idea what he's doing, but yet he is able to get the car to slide rather easily in 2nd gear without clutch dumps. I think we need to conclude that the GT86 is not a difficult car to get sideways.

I'm sure he can in 3rd gear but, @tedaxe did it in 5th gear low RPM not 3rd. Show me a low hp low torque car with higher grade tyre that can break their traction on power at high gear low rpm.

I don't know. The GR86 is pretty low torque but can be tossed around like a V8 on throttle application. People usually don't throw their cars in these conditions irl since it's inefficient and a waste of track time to do.

Just like your previous post about not be able to slide the car in AC like the videos you linked I can easily break traction in second gear.

In AC, you can only do it with a clutch dump. The example I gave was pure throttle application and steering angle. You can't do this in AC. Across the board, AC is flawed in their understeer aspect and cars that are a bit difficult to handle irl handle like a dream in the game since it's understeer centric.

It's hilarious you look at that video and think it looks normal.

I really don't know. Not many people irl are placing their cars in that position. People were calling me silly for saying a GT86 shouldn't be able to break traction on its own power in 2nd, or even 3rd. That's not the case. I think it goes back to the issue of ppl using AC as a benchmark.

you can change how the car behaves but it still won't behave in a realistic way

For example?

 

[extreme car]

He has a video of his car on the lift and the tread pattern matches that of a PS4 or a PS4S. He has no idea what he's doing, but yet he is able to get the car to slide rather easily in 2nd gear without clutch dumps. I think we need to conclude that the GT86 is not a difficult car to get sideways.

Yeah, nah.

I don't know. The GR86 is pretty low torque but can be tossed around like a V8 on throttle application. People usually don't throw their cars in these conditions irl since it's inefficient and a waste of track time to do.

*Citaton needed. also we were not discussing about what driving style is inefficient were we? we were talking about GT7 over the limit tyre physics and how unrealisticly easy it is to lose traction on RWD production cars in GT7.

 

[Klik]

Physics are a step up compared to GTS, but FFB feels worse.

They need to upgrade FFB urgently.

I go over curbs or grass at high speed and just feel nothing.

Yeah, most of us have same opinion. Im on Logitech G29 and feel like im just playing with controller attached to wheel.

FFB needs to be a lot better and feel what is car doing. If AC/ACC/PC2 and every other sim game can do it even on ****** G29 then its just Polyphony lazy work..