Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[AlexWilmot]

Thanks, but that's all based on the assumption the suspension modelling on a PS4/PS5 has any connection to real suspension behaviour.

Real car / racing teams use simulations to aid design and predict how their own car will behave with far far far more sophisticated computation software, and even so there is a chance that the computer got it wrong...

... much less a sim racer sliding the anti-roll back stiffness on his G27 steering wheel...

You can make changes to the car in GT7 with results you'd expect to have regardless if it's not as sophisticated as what real/race teams use.
I make a lot of tunes for Daily races when tuning allows and for the LeMans 700pp race and trust me suspension changes in GT7 do indeed have an affect on how a car behaves, I will bet you cannot get the same lap times with a car setup that has 0.5 toe out on the front wheels vs 0.5 toe in on the front wheels.

Your claim of it having no bearing on the car's handling and that it is all psychological is just wrong. attached is a WIP guide I'm making on settings so maybe it can help you understand how to tune a car,

 

[anh165]

Come on man... the suspension bug? You mean when your wheels get jammed in the fenders because they cannot physically turn? Yeah, real buggy. Absolutely not realistic at all.

That's the thing though, the tyres/tires strictly are not 'jammed' in higher speed turns, there would be tyre to wheel arch contact from the get go... so not only does PD fail to warn that you slammed y0 ride too low brah, but it allows you to still steer/corner the car until you go beyond 45 degrees of steering angle.

The FFB should have given a clue that something is wrong too ...

The problem occurs with wider tyres and using any suspension height that is lower than factory standard. I driven many cars IRL that have been lowered with wide tyres and low offsets, we never had steering angle lock out like that

...realistic? I don't think so

 

[anh165]

You can make changes to the car in GT7 with results you'd expect to have regardless if it's not as sophisticated as what real/race teams use, I make a lot of tunes for Daily races when tuning allows and for the LeMans 700pp race and trust me suspension changes in GT7 do indeed have an affect on how a car behaves, I will bet you cannot get the same lap times with a car setup that has 0.5 toe out on the front wheels vs 0.5 toe in on the front wheels.

Your claim of it having no bearing on the car's handling and that it is all psychological is just wrong. attached is a WIP guide I'm making on settings so maybe it can help you understand how to tune a car,

You are using subjectivity coupled with expectation bias as evidence, which is not the same as tweaking an actual real car and a professional driving the car with measuring equipment/telemetry to validate any improvements.

Also you can understeer/oversteer into a given corner through misjudgement of steering, brakes, acceleration i.e human error - or let the fantastic inconsistency of the GT7 tire physics model decide for you lap vs lap.

If someone told you that they tweaked your computer generated car for less understeer but actually left the settings stock, chances are you probably would understeer less when driving it as you are subconsciously adjusting your driving based on the belief there was a change in the suspension.

 

[AlexWilmot]

You are using subjectivity coupled with expectation bias as evidence, which is not the same as tweaking an actual real car and a professional driving the car with measuring equipment/telemetry to validate any improvements.

Also you can understeer/oversteer into a given corner through misjudgement of steering, brakes, acceleration i.e human error - or let the fantastic inconsistency of the GT7 tire physics model decide for you lap vs lap.

If someone told you that they tweaked your computer generated car for less understeer but actually left the settings stock, chances are you probably would understeer less when driving it as you are subconsciously adjusting your driving based on the belief there was a change in the suspension.

ok so this is a YOU problem, not the setup or the game, a human error as you say, not being able to 1) know how settings affect a car and its handling and 2) how to drive

Edit: Theres a share function on a controller, please record these issues and share here via a YouTube video with driving because we can then easily determine if it's the game or your driving thats at fault

 

[anh165]

ok so this is a YOU problem, not the setup or the game, a human error as you say, not being able to 1) know how settings affect a car and its handling and 2) how to drive

Edit: Theres a share function on a controller, please record these issues and share here via a YouTube video with driving because we can then easily determine if it's the game or your driving thats at fault

I am quite happy to drive/race without tweaking the suspension, I leave it stock and just worry about enjoying the race instead.

PD have failed to improve the basics such as engine sounds since GT2 on the PS1, so I suspect they have nothing to offer on the suspension modelling front. As it stands, it's only height adjustment and a bunch of clicky sliders and drop down items to give gamers some degree of that race day prep immersive feeling.

 

[AlexWilmot]

I am quite happy to drive/race without tweaking the suspension, I leave it stock and just worry about enjoying the race instead.

How do suspension changes not doing anything then if you're only running stock...

PD have failed to improve the basics such as engine sounds since GT2 on the PS1, so I suspect they have nothing to offer on the suspension modelling front. As it stands, it's only height adjustment and a bunch of clicky sliders and drop down items to give gamers some degree of that race day prep immersive feeling.

No you're wrong again, you can adjust a lot more than just ride height and some clicky sliders,

Again it sounds like you don't know what you're doing and instead of accepting that it's easier to say the game is wrong.

Failed to improve sounds from GT2... ok so this is a distraction from the original point? have you actually played GT7? it sounds a lot better than GT2, far from a failure, it's quite the success.

 

[danardif1]

You can make changes to the car in GT7 with results you'd expect to have regardless if it's not as sophisticated as what real/race teams use.
I make a lot of tunes for Daily races when tuning allows and for the LeMans 700pp race and trust me suspension changes in GT7 do indeed have an affect on how a car behaves, I will bet you cannot get the same lap times with a car setup that has 0.5 toe out on the front wheels vs 0.5 toe in on the front wheels.

Your claim of it having no bearing on the car's handling and that it is all psychological is just wrong. attached is a WIP guide I'm making on settings so maybe it can help you understand how to tune a car,

The attached quick guide is well put together. 👍

 

[AlexWilmot]

The attached quick guide is well put together. 👍

Cheers! Still a WIP as there are some explanations for Springs and LSD missing, Toe settings, Gearbox and Aero not done yet, also want to have it in a structure of starting your tuning process with Gearing first then LSD, then actual suspension settings to get a car how you want etc.

 

[danardif1]

Whilst a lot of the problems have been mitigated if not fully solved as such, I still find that mid-engined cars especially are really struggling with corners like The Dipper at Bathurst. Using the Audi R8 LMS Evo as my baseline given I use it on both GT and ACC, in ACC I can roll the car quite easily through that corner using the mechanical grip of the car, whilst being sensible on throttle application. In GT7 it's kind of a lottery as to whether I make it through barely, by slowing to a near crawl and inching the car through, or trying what would be a normal line and having the rear just break away from me with no reasonable cause or warning.

Maybe I need to play with the damping more, or soften the rear a bit, but as I'm running the translated Coach Dave race setup from ACC on the car it's not the setup fundamentally that's the problem...

 

[danardif1]

Cheers! Still a WIP as there are some explanations for Springs and LSD missing, Toe settings, Gearbox and Aero not done yet, also what to have it in a structure of starting your tuning process with Gearing first then LSD, then actual suspension settings to get a car how you want etc.

I've been working on incorporating basic centre of pressure calculations into suspension settings too. A lot of the Gr3 cars especially on the fixed setups have the centre of pressure way too far to the back, obviously to make them 'safer' to drive but at the cost of near-terminal understeer in cars like the Jaguar.

 

[Tenacious D]

PD have failed to improve the basics such as engine sounds since GT2 on the PS1

I haven't posted in a while, but this made me chuckle. You almost sound like a Microsoft employee. Stuff like this is impossible to take seriously.

 

[anh165]

How do suspension changes not doing anything then if you're only running stock...

No you're wrong again, you can adjust a lot more than just ride height and some clicky sliders,

Again it sounds like you don't know what you're doing and instead of accepting that it's easier to say the game is wrong.

Failed to improve sounds from GT2... ok so this is a distraction from the original point? have you actually played GT7? it sounds a lot better than GT2, far from a failure, it's quite the success.

Hmm...simply telling me 'no no no I'm wrong, I don't know what I am doing @##*' as a response to my points does not make your position true.

The onus on you is to prove that the settings makes any difference, let alone differences in-line with how real suspension dynamics works which even real engineers & racing software cannot get right. I used the ps1 sound quality that haunts the game to this day as an example of how PD have struggled with accuracy, yet I'm supposed to buy into that they nailed accurate suspension dynamics?

You carry on shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic with your slider bars, I prefer to not waste time on tuning unless the racing PP limit enforces that I do.

 

[Saargasm]

Hmm...simply telling me 'no no no I'm wrong, I don't know what I am doing @##*' as a response to my points does not make your position true.

The onus on you is to prove that the settings makes any difference, let alone differences in-line with how real suspension dynamics works which even real engineers & racing software cannot get right. I used the ps1 sound quality that haunts the game to this day as an example of how PD have struggled with accuracy, yet I'm supposed to buy into that they nailed accurate suspension dynamics?

You carry on shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic with your slider bars, I prefer to not waste time on tuning unless the racing PP limit enforces that I do.

You must be a hit at parties

 

[AlexWilmot]

Hmm...simply telling me 'no no no I'm wrong, I don't know what I am doing @##*' as a response to my points does not make your position true.

The onus on you is to prove that the settings makes any difference, let alone differences in-line with how real suspension dynamics works which even real engineers & racing software cannot get right. I used the ps1 sound quality that haunts the game to this day as an example of how PD have struggled with accuracy, yet I'm supposed to buy into that they nailed accurate suspension dynamics?

You carry on shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic with your slider bars, I prefer to not waste time on tuning unless the racing PP limit enforces that I do.

The onus on me? You’re the one claiming they don’t do anything, prove that!
Oh wait you said you only do stock settings so how do you know suspension setting changes do nothing then?

If settings did nothing howcome we have a entire sub thread dedicated to tunes and setups, people posting videos about grip and drift tunes etc.

You’re out of your depth here, you are wrong and it’s quite clear the issue is your driving, post that video and of your driving and the inconsistency of the understeer/oversteer you mentioned, come on then hotshot

The queens a man prove me wrong then!

 

[FPV MIC]

PD have failed to improve the basics such as engine sounds since GT2 on the PS1

You do realize you lose all credibility when you make statements like this?

I used the ps1 sound quality that haunts the game to this day as an example of how PD have struggled with accuracy, yet I'm supposed to buy into that they nailed accurate suspension dynamics?

And then to double down on it

No developers for console have ''nailed'' accurate suspension physics on console games but some games are better than GT 7 and some are worse, and some it's better FFB moreso than actual physics. GT has it's faults with tuning but it can certainly help with taming unruly cars and dialing some understeer out of others.

 

[anh165]

You do realize you lose all credibility when you make statements like this?

And then to double down on it

No developers for console have ''nailed'' accurate suspension physics on console games but some games are better than GT 7 and some are worse, and some it's better FFB moreso than actual physics. GT has it's faults with tuning but it can certainly help with taming unruly cars and dialing some understeer out of others.

At the end of the day GT7 is a game, it is not a computational simulation of a vehicle with easy to use sliders and drops downs to change an given vehicle's handling behavior in a realistic way.

There is simply not enough power from game consoles nor there are any sophisticated coding to accurately reproduce the understood changes in handling/grip bourne from change in spring rates, damper compression or decompression bell curves ... and I am scratching the surface at that.

The best way to find more speed (faster laps) in a racing game is to exploit the coding and flaws of the game, this normally is acheived through practice and following the techniques of better gamers than you. The fastest sim racers do this and do it consistently, it is not done by tweaking the suspension parts as they have no scientific connection to vehicle/suspension dynamics.

 

[Scaff]

At the end of the day GT7 is a game, it is not a computational simulation of a vehicle with easy to use sliders and drops downs to change an given vehicle's handling behavior in a realistic way.

There is simply not enough power from game consoles nor there are any sophisticated coding to accurately reproduce the understood changes in handling/grip bourne from change in spring rates, damper compression or decompression bell curves ... and I am scratching the surface at that.

The best way to find more speed (faster laps) in a racing game is to exploit the coding and flaws of the game, this normally is acheived through practice and following the techniques of better gamers than you. The fastest sim racers do this and do it consistently, it is not done by tweaking the suspension parts as they have no scientific connection to vehicle/suspension dynamics.

A point in time occurs when one really should stop digging...

 

[Omiyup]

Physics definitely changed now. I like them more.
Rear of the cars now have proper grip I think. Before they didnt have enough grip, they were a bit too tail happy.
Of course for some this will result in understeer, but that can be solved by setup.


Turn off TCS


If you say you use a controller and TCS on then... Just try a wheel and TCS off and then realise the understeer is only due to your setup

Wow, I'm shocked. Soooo basically you said "stop being poor"?
My point was, it's possible to do before the update and now it's impossible. Both on controller and TCS 1, so controller and TCS factor is already eliminated

I know GT7 isn't perfect and not a sim, that's why it should be possible for casual player to play JUST using the controller
Also thanks for people making guide on setups.

 

[ScottPuss20]

You probably did not drive the car hard enough ...

Take a car and drive it at 8/10ths or more, the AI cars become faster, and GT7 tire zero-grip physics kicks-in at random times ...

I'm driving it pretty hard alright.

 

[Firestone]

Was doing circuit experience with Huracan GT3 at Barcelona and the game is really edging towards the ACC feel. A lot more oversteer; the back end will kick on you with too much throttle, but is even more progressive than the previous update and can be recovered with counter steer when the back end starts to slip out. The game feels more like the aggressive preset in ACC. There's enough slip in the rear which allows you to maintain momentum if you don't get too greedy, which allows you to push the car at the limit throughout the lap. If you get to greedy on throttle, you get punished. Also I found that the FFB unloads similar to ACC when you push on the limit into oversteer conditions. The traction control works better and doesn't totally compromise your driving. It's probably needed now for better consistent laps. In the end, it feels very satisfying to drive.

 

[Galvston]

Was doing circuit experience with Huracan GT3 at Barcelona and the game is really edging towards the ACC feel. A lot more oversteer; the back end will kick on you with too much throttle, but is even more progressive than the previous update and can be recovered with counter steer when the back end starts to slip out. The game feels more like the aggressive preset in ACC. There's enough slip in the rear which allows you to maintain momentum if you don't get too greedy, which allows you to push the car at the limit throughout the lap. If you get to greedy on throttle, you get punished. Also I found that the FFB unloads similar to ACC when you push on the limit into oversteer conditions. The traction control works better and doesn't totally compromise your driving. It's probably needed now for better consistent laps. In the end, it feels very satisfying to drive.

Facts. This is a new thing. GT3 cars now have oversteer, when the 1.13 patch made them understeer machines. If you turn of TC you can have them flip on you now, much better in my opinion and more realistic.

 

[RacingFan1]

Wow, I'm shocked. Soooo basically you said "stop being poor"?
My point was, it's possible to do before the update and now it's impossible. Both on controller and TCS 1, so controller and TCS factor is already eliminated

I know GT7 isn't perfect and not a sim, that's why it should be possible for casual player to play JUST using the controller
Also thanks for people making guide on setups.

Dont put things on my mouth and dont make things up. You dont need to be rich at all to buy wheels that cost 200€.
I strongly suggest you turn TCS off because it usually slows you down, even more so with a 4WD.
Anyway, if you want oversteer with TCS at 1 you should harden the rear suspension, and place the torque most at the rear, all this stuff...

 

[mynameis66]

You probably did not drive the car hard enough ...

Take a car and drive it at 8/10ths or more, the AI cars become faster, and GT7 tire zero-grip physics kicks-in at random times ...

So you are saying if i potter around slowly the ai will be slow until i put my foot down then they up the pace?Ive never noticed that before since playing the game,i might be mistaken.

 

[Scaff]

So you are saying if i potter around slowly the ai will be slow until i put my foot down then they up the pace?Ive never noticed that before since playing the game,i might be mistaken.

Why its not true to that degree (the members main issue was destroying some valid observations with absurd hyperbole), it is true that GT as a series has always had rubberbanding to one degree or another in its AI. The pace of the car you have just overtaken will drop off once you get ahead of them enough, only for them to speed up dramatically on the last lap.

What it's being mixed up with is what's known as 'adaptive AI' (which GT doesn't have) which aims to adapt the pace of the AI to your ability, removing the need for you to set an AI skill level (RaceRoom for example has this option).

 

[mynameis66]

Why its not true to that degree (the members main issue was destroying some valid observations with absurd hyperbole), it is true that GT as a series has always had rubberbanding to one degree or another in its AI. The pace of the car you have just overtaken will drop off once you get ahead of them enough, only for them to speed up dramatically on the last lap.

What it's being mixed up with is what's known as 'adaptive AI' (which GT doesn't have) which aims to adapt the pace of the AI to your ability, removing the need for you to set an AI skill level (RaceRoom for example has this option).

I see,the way you describe it makes a lot more sense.I have noticed for example on Tokyo,when i get past Gallo he will be persistant until i get s few seconds ahead then he doesnt seem to get any closer.Never played race room or any proper sim,my laptop just wont even think about it .

 

[ScottPuss20]

Was doing circuit experience with Huracan GT3 at Barcelona and the game is really edging towards the ACC feel. A lot more oversteer; the back end will kick on you with too much throttle, but is even more progressive than the previous update and can be recovered with counter steer when the back end starts to slip out. The game feels more like the aggressive preset in ACC. There's enough slip in the rear which allows you to maintain momentum if you don't get too greedy, which allows you to push the car at the limit throughout the lap. If you get to greedy on throttle, you get punished. Also I found that the FFB unloads similar to ACC when you push on the limit into oversteer conditions. The traction control works better and doesn't totally compromise your driving. It's probably needed now for better consistent laps. In the end, it feels very satisfying to drive.

You've actually made a sensical post for once.

 

[extreme car]

Wow, I felt a major change with 1.20 physics update. I tested the GR86 around tsukuba on comfort soft tyre and compared it to the 1.13 physics and I'm quite impressed with what PD did. here's what I found when I tested the GR86 around tsukuba on 1.20 update.

Grip

• GR86 now understeers rather than random snap oversteer when you give it a light throttle through the high speed corner (YAY!)
• I can use the throttle to rotate the car on the tighter corner and use throttle control to quickly regain grip to power through the corner (the car is stuck to drifting when I try to rotate using throttle in 1.13)
• Overall car balance and grip is so much better, I can now go full throttle through the dunlop corner and the car won't snap oversteer (can't do that on 1.13).

Drift

• it's now a lot harder to initiate drift (as it should be on a stock car) I need to weight shift a lot more aggresive or use the hand brake and clutch to initiate my drifts.
• catching and maintaining drifts is a lot easier now, because grip level is a lot more predictable when you're on full throttle (GR86 does random snap oversteer on full throttle drifts on 1.13 physics)
• It's now almost impossible to drift on a high gear low RPM on a high speed corner (tried 4th gear on last corner and the car bogged down at the end)

I managed to beat my previous lap record by 8 tenths of a second with the new physics. overall I'm quite happy with what PD done with update 1.20, I think they're going in the right direction with the new physics update.

 

[anh165]

I see,the way you describe it makes a lot more sense.I have noticed for example on Tokyo,when i get past Gallo he will be persistant until i get s few seconds ahead then he doesnt seem to get any closer.Never played race room or any proper sim,my laptop just wont even think about it .

Try a 1 hour endurance race, if you are fast enough to be leading in P1, the CPU controlled cars in P2 will increase in pace dramatically. If the CPU car is in P1 you can expect to catch the car in a few laps if you drive reasonably cleanly.

It's very scripted and repeatable in an long enough race.

 

[Saargasm]

Wow, I felt a major change with 1.20 physics update. I tested the GR86 around tsukuba on comfort soft tyre and compared it to the 1.13 physics and I'm quite impressed with what PD did. here's what I found when I tested the GR86 around tsukuba on 1.20 update.

Grip

• GR86 now understeers rather than random snap oversteer when you give it a light throttle through the high speed corner (YAY!)
• I can use the throttle to rotate the car on the tighter corner and use throttle control to quickly regain grip to power through the corner (the car is stuck to drifting when I try to rotate using throttle in 1.13)
• Overall car balance and grip is so much better, I can now go full throttle through the dunlop corner and the car won't snap oversteer (can't do that on 1.13).

Drift

• it's now a lot harder to initiate drift (as it should be on a stock car) I need to weight shift a lot more aggresive or use the hand brake and clutch to initiate my drifts.
• catching and maintaining drifts is a lot easier now, because grip level is a lot more predictable when you're on full throttle (GR86 does random snap oversteer on full throttle drifts on 1.13 physics)
• It's now almost impossible to drift on a high gear low RPM on a high speed corner (tried 4th gear on last corner and the car bogged down at the end)

I managed to beat my previous lap record by 8 tenths of a second with the new physics. overall I'm quite happy with what PD done with update 1.20, I think they're going in the right direction with the new physics update.

Thanks for the share!

Random comment - video is in 720p quality and I'm old enough to remember how "revolutionary" it was when I bought my 42-inch Samsung DLP TV with it's spinning mirrors and HIGH-DEF 720p picture! Now I'm like, "why does this look like 480p!"

 

[danardif1]

Wow, I felt a major change with 1.20 physics update. I tested the GR86 around tsukuba on comfort soft tyre and compared it to the 1.13 physics and I'm quite impressed with what PD did. here's what I found when I tested the GR86 around tsukuba on 1.20 update.

Grip

• GR86 now understeers rather than random snap oversteer when you give it a light throttle through the high speed corner (YAY!)
• I can use the throttle to rotate the car on the tighter corner and use throttle control to quickly regain grip to power through the corner (the car is stuck to drifting when I try to rotate using throttle in 1.13)
• Overall car balance and grip is so much better, I can now go full throttle through the dunlop corner and the car won't snap oversteer (can't do that on 1.13).

Drift

• it's now a lot harder to initiate drift (as it should be on a stock car) I need to weight shift a lot more aggresive or use the hand brake and clutch to initiate my drifts.
• catching and maintaining drifts is a lot easier now, because grip level is a lot more predictable when you're on full throttle (GR86 does random snap oversteer on full throttle drifts on 1.13 physics)
• It's now almost impossible to drift on a high gear low RPM on a high speed corner (tried 4th gear on last corner and the car bogged down at the end)

I managed to beat my previous lap record by 8 tenths of a second with the new physics. overall I'm quite happy with what PD done with update 1.20, I think they're going in the right direction with the new physics update.

I've been testing out the racing cars mainly but I should give some of the road cars a go to see how they feel now, sounds promising!