Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[JDMKING13]

I've just spent a few hours running a GT86 at Willow in AC, PC2 and GT7.

Of the three, only one has almost no progressive loss of traction over the limit. Now I've never driven a GT86 as Willow, but I gave driven one at MIRA, and over the limit its loss of traction is progressive unless you've done something really stupid.

Over the limit isn't a digital switch, yet in GT7 it's lack of progression at that pointbis at odd with those who gave driven the cars in reality, track test reviews, other sim and the fundamentals of vehicle dynamics.

So what your telling me is that once you go over the limit you should feel the loss of traction through some type of progression… My question to you is I can feel the car about to go outta wack and 8/10 I can save the car. When I play AC/Acc and I start to loose the car it’s over I can never catch it. Wouldn’t you say that’s a me problem and not Ac/ACC? I remember some saying how the New Mercedes in GT7 was a beast to handle with its aids off.. you said you driven one with no aids and it was easy for you… But if I drove the car with the Electronic aids off I’m betting I would of spun out. Going off your experience the car is easy to handle vs mines I would say it’s a handful…

Your opinion because of the work you have put in your lifetime is extremely valid, to me at least. So I honestly take your word on the GT7 physics being off once you go over the limit.. My biggest thing is how do we distinguish people just not having the skill vs it being a physics problem. I am not having any trouble with the cars even going past the limit.. sometimes I catch it sometimes I don’t and depending on the car performance can also make it easier or harder to catch. Ok Scaff I’m going to leave you alone now sorry 😂

 

[photonmonkey]

I have played most racing titles on PS and I am convinced that GT7 physics are a step above GT Sport which to me were border line boring.

Obviously the physics are limited by the lack of an advanced tyre model, no heat cycles or tyre pressure adjustment but it’s still a step in the right direction.

All these experts on GT Planet surely should be working for PD if they are so convinced they know what’s wrong with the physics!!!

I am enjoying the game, of course there is room for improvement but hey ACC still feels a bit off to me so no ‘game’ is 100% realistic, after all it’s only a handful of 0’s and 1’s trying to relay what a ‘real’ car feels like.

 

[///M3]

I think it might be by design…watching all the GT intros again

 

[Johnnn]

I am enjoying the game, of course there is room for improvement but hey ACC still feels a bit off to me so no ‘game’ is 100% realistic, after all it’s only a handful of 0’s and 1’s trying to relay what a ‘real’ car feels like.

Interesting thing about ACC is they had "weird" tires and they changed them in 1.8. I am still not sure why. So the game was unrealistic for two years before? Or different manufacturer?

 

[danardif1]

The more I drive the faster mid-engined cars the more I find that more of the issues seem to come from what steering lock seems to be automatic in-game. I'm quite familiar with the Audi Evo now and I actually enjoy how it drives practically all of the time I'm above 40mph, and when I'm below in tight corners like the new hairpin at Deep Forest, it feels like I've put too much lock in the way the car will just lazily give up the rear. Also when the car is feeling lighter at the rear in some faster corners, it can feel like I cannot put more than a very small amount of steering lock in before the car then... oversteers in the truest sense of the word.

I think this is what is happening with the example of the Peugeot 908 at the LM Circuit Experience missions. The steering rack feels so fast that it's more like too much lock is being put in despite small inputs from the driver.

I have the steering lock on my wheel set to automatic for my GT profile settings.

 

[Pfei]

Interesting thing about ACC is they had "weird" tires and they changed them in 1.8. I am still not sure why. So the game was unrealistic for two years before? Or different manufacturer?

Yeah the previous model was even praised by real GT3 drivers. I haven't tried the new model yet.

 

[Scaff]

So what your telling me is that once you go over the limit you should feel the loss of traction through some type of progression… My question to you is I can feel the car about to go outta wack and 8/10 I can save the car. When I play AC/Acc and I start to loose the car it’s over I can never catch it. Wouldn’t you say that’s a me problem and not Ac/ACC? I remember some saying how the New Mercedes in GT7 was a beast to handle with its aids off.. you said you driven one with no aids and it was easy for you… But if I drove the car with the Electronic aids off I’m betting I would of spun out. Going off your experience the car is easy to handle vs mines I would say it’s a handful…

Your opinion because of the work you have put in your lifetime is extremely valid, to me at least. So I honestly take your word on the GT7 physics being off once you go over the limit.. My biggest thing is how do we distinguish people just not having the skill vs it being a physics problem. I am not having any trouble with the cars even going past the limit.. sometimes I catch it sometimes I don’t and depending on the car performance can also make it easier or harder to catch. Ok Scaff I’m going to leave you alone now sorry 😂

It depends on the car, I did a post on this back in Thursday.

Something like a GT86 is going to be, in most circumstances very progressive, most FR road cars will be to a greater or lesser degree.

The stiffer the suspension the less progressive it will be (stiff road car suspension isn't as stiff as the softest race suspension), the same with race tyres.

One of the snappiest things I've driven is a Formula Ford, stiffly sprung, cross ply tyres, light weight, MR layout, short wheelbase, low polar moment, zero aero, and so on. Its still possible to catch one, but you need to be quick and they will not catch it easily if you get any sizable angle on one.

Right now GT7 has FR road cars that are snappier than that.

Interesting thing about ACC is they had "weird" tires and they changed them in 1.8. I am still not sure why. So the game was unrealistic for two years before? Or different manufacturer?

Version 1.07 was when they carried out the main tyre model change, back in 2019.

PHYSICS - Introducing the 5 point tyre model for ACC!

In modern computing, collision detection is still one of the most resource consuming operations a physics engine has to do. It needs to be very fast,...

www.assettocorsa.net

1.8 dud bring improvements to the tyre model, but 1.07 was the one that fixed the curbs of death and insta spins off track.

Assetto Corsa Competizione PC Update v 1.8 OUT NOW

We are pleased to announce that PC update v 1.8 has just released on Steam! Take a look on our Keynote to discover all the new features!

www.assettocorsa.it

 

[JDMKING13]

The more I drive the faster mid-engined cars the more I find that more of the issues seem to come from what steering lock seems to be automatic in-game. I'm quite familiar with the Audi Evo now and I actually enjoy how it drives practically all of the time I'm above 40mph, and when I'm below in tight corners like the new hairpin at Deep Forest, it feels like I've put too much lock in the way the car will just lazily give up the rear. Also when the car is feeling lighter at the rear in some faster corners, it can feel like I cannot put more than a very small amount of steering lock in before the car then... oversteers in the truest sense of the word.

I think this is what is happening with the example of the Peugeot 908 at the LM Circuit Experience missions. The steering rack feels so fast that it's more like too much lock is being put in despite small inputs from the driver.

I have the steering lock on my wheel set to automatic for my GT profile settings.

I can’t call it but something with the steering is definitely different especially with the RR and MR.. I got use to it, before I was kinda over Turing the car… I beat the championship with the Audi evo but the learning process was extremely hard.

 

[Silver Arrows]

It's truly amazing how someone who has admitted, time and time again, that he has real world experience in handling and vehicle dynamics being told by dishonest people that no, his points are wrong because (strawman videos and arguments) and him repeating his points, again and again and again.

Evidently Kaz takes his 996 GT3 or whatever else he owns to track days, and has raced in real world events and probably has an idea on how both those types of vehicles operate. Yes, this game is meant to be played both on pads and on wheels.

That doesn't excuse in the slightest the snap oversteer issues found on vehicles that are known for being otherwise planted and easy to drive over the limit, and being changed in GT7 to be death killers on the level of the original Viper or the Shelby Cobra. And it certainly doesn't excuse the absolute reeking of copium from some in this thread that can't even take someone who knows a thing or two about the subject saying 'hey, this is really not right' and instead take it as a way to argue and try to posit that they don't know anything, that Kaz's supposed knowledge triumphs over all.

As usual, I have a sneaking suspicion that if this were Forza Motorsport that had these exact handling characteristics (God, no), these same people would be crying foul and calling it a cartoonish arcade racer. And, yes, I'm the one that brought up Forza because I've been here long enough to know it's true.

This truly is an evergreen quote, and it really speaks to some on this forum's outlook on the series not only in physics, but in general too. It's frustrating because it's ultimately better for the series as a whole to confront the problems it has (and believe me, they are many, especially with 7) and fix them, instead of burying heads in the sand and trying to make other series (but especially the big, green bad guys up in Redmond) the boogeyman compared to sweet, delicate Polyphony and GT.

 

[Peter.]

We are a week in and I’m getting a great feel for the cars… However with powerful cars I’m still running TCS unless it’s tuned and still depend on the class I still might run it!

@Peter. I drove the car in stock from and it was pretty easygoing.. you can’t really smack the track with it with its soft suspension and tires but it was manageable.

This is the Camaro At Trial Mountain, nice Track in the Americas! Again not going for lap times just getting a feel for the car.

Stock CM No ABS No TCS

You can see during one turn I go in hot with a little bit of entry oversteer during second lap, but I catch it. I also locked up the brakes coming down the S hill on the first lap. I was just getting a feel for the brakes and went too far. 😆 Second lap I was good! ABS off is also better in GT7 vs GTS.

Edit: the miss shift during the long straight in the tunnel happened because I forgot it’s only 4 gears. 😂

To be fair this was well within the limit compared to what I was doing trying to complete the Cafe menu. I should have mentioned that I had enhanced the power and shaved off a bunch of weight with no other additions besides Sport Hard tyres. It was a killer once you break traction. The situation didn’t change after customizeanle suspension and a LSD until I tweaked it a lot, and it was still having the same issue.

Point remains though that for all rear drive cars I’ve driven so far, from the Ruf 370Z Yellowbird to the yellow casket that is the Camaro, you basically have to micromanage the hell out of your throttle inputs just to not break traction at all mid corner, or else your car will instill the fear of God into you, no matter the car, no matter the decade, no matter the alterations to the suspension.

I’ve praised them heavily for the other changes making this the best GT yet physics wise, but they are almost taking an equal amount of steps back with this unforgiving behavior. The limit is not to be feared like this, it’s to be danced with and managed. My only other proper sim experiences, Rfactor and RRE, werent this bad.

 

[Terronium-12]

I just experienced snap oversteer in a Mini. Not progressive power sliding (LOL, what power?), but full on jerk movement that saw me wind up in the kitty litter. With sport tires on!

A 1965 Mini Cooper just barreled through a corner like it was doing 186 mph. Yes, it hardly weighs more than a US quarter but that's utterly ridiculous.

Then there's the AMG GT Black. Handles fairly well more often than not and I genuinely like it, but at times the steering just... doesn't work.

The loveliest car I've driven thus far is the E92 M3. That thing is with it.

 

[///M3]

I just experienced snap oversteer in a Mini. Not progressive power sliding (LOL, what power?), but full on jerk movement that saw me wind up in the kitty litter. With sport tires on!

A 1965 Mini Cooper just barreled through a corner like it was doing 186 mph. Yes, it hardly weighs more than a US quarter but that's utterly ridiculous.

Then there's the AMG GT Black. Handles fairly well more often than not and I genuinely like it, but at times the steering just... doesn't work.

The loveliest car I've driven thus far is the E92 M3. That thing is with it.

Trail breaking is really really hard now, and a coin toss.

Grip recovery rates and engine braking just aren’t what you’d expect. The snap oversteer thing I’m getting a handle on how it works and you have to ride it out a little more and correct less than feel natural but you do have to ease the drive out.

The understeer thing treats everything like a full lock up and it’s punishing to correct, I know I went deep or to hot but lifting off with plenty of time for my grip to return but on a deep line and much slower speed doesn’t happen. You can meter it out to a degree but it is not consistent and not reflective of how cars come back on to grip at slow to slowing speeds for me.

 

[SamTheMadMan]

The more I drive the faster mid-engined cars the more I find that more of the issues seem to come from what steering lock seems to be automatic in-game. I'm quite familiar with the Audi Evo now and I actually enjoy how it drives practically all of the time I'm above 40mph, and when I'm below in tight corners like the new hairpin at Deep Forest, it feels like I've put too much lock in the way the car will just lazily give up the rear. Also when the car is feeling lighter at the rear in some faster corners, it can feel like I cannot put more than a very small amount of steering lock in before the car then... oversteers in the truest sense of the word.

I think this is what is happening with the example of the Peugeot 908 at the LM Circuit Experience missions. The steering rack feels so fast that it's more like too much lock is being put in despite small inputs from the driver.

I have the steering lock on my wheel set to automatic for my GT profile settings.

Even trying to ever so gently turn the 908 it still snaps hard, I tried the R92CP license again and that's so good through those corners. Same as the Porsche 919 and both Audi r18s.

It's weird to me how bad the 908 is compared to other LMP

 

[Terronium-12]

Even trying to ever so gently turn the 908 it still snaps hard, I tried the R92CP license again and that's so good through those corners. Same as the Porsche 919 and both Audi r18s

I loved the R92 test so much... It was never an issue of getting gold, it was more about going through the corners quicker than you'd been conditioned to believe.

It has real grip and behaves much more like I would expect a purpose-built machine to behave.

 

[Dunderbolt]

So what your telling me is that once you go over the limit you should feel the loss of traction through some type of progression… My question to you is I can feel the car about to go outta wack and 8/10 I can save the car. When I play AC/Acc and I start to loose the car it’s over I can never catch it. Wouldn’t you say that’s a me problem and not Ac/ACC? I remember some saying how the New Mercedes in GT7 was a beast to handle with its aids off.. you said you driven one with no aids and it was easy for you… But if I drove the car with the Electronic aids off I’m betting I would of spun out. Going off your experience the car is easy to handle vs mines I would say it’s a handful…

Your opinion because of the work you have put in your lifetime is extremely valid, to me at least. So I honestly take your word on the GT7 physics being off once you go over the limit.. My biggest thing is how do we distinguish people just not having the skill vs it being a physics problem. I am not having any trouble with the cars even going past the limit.. sometimes I catch it sometimes I don’t and depending on the car performance can also make it easier or harder to catch. Ok Scaff I’m going to leave you alone now sorry 😂

Depends on the car you drive in GT7, some of the Porsches have more docile oversteer and allows you to "catch" the car. The problem is that many cars shouldn't begin to just oversteer, even if you can catch it. The car should begin to slip but still be controllable. There's nothing to "catch" as the car is still within available grip, even GT7s manual even stated that cars turn better under some slip as well, yet that doesn't happen. Many sims, many much older than GT7 illustrate the progressive loss in traction much better.
To give you an example, albeit an old one. Grand Prix Legends with the modeling of 1960's era race tires illustrates how tire slip angles should work before you begin to spin, albeit in a very exaggerated fashion.



But like I posted in page 61, even high downforce cars still snap oversteer at high speeds when it should be massive understeer.

 

[///M3]

Even trying to ever so gently turn the 908 it still snaps hard, I tried the R92CP license again and that's so good through those corners. Same as the Porsche 919 and both Audi r18s.

It's weird to me how bad the 908 is compared to other LMP

I think the hardcore race stuff just sits on a knife edge anyways to be honest.

 

[SamTheMadMan]

I loved the R92 test so much... It was never an issue of getting gold, it was more about going through the corners quicker than you'd been conditioned to believe.

It has real grip and behaves much more like I would expect a purpose-built machine to behave.

I'd be intrigued to see someone post a gold time on that sector to see how they did it

 

[NikNakTobasco]

I’ve just had a go at the LM circuit experience in the 908. I was really happy with how planted it was through the first 4 sectors. I could keep full throttle through some pretty severe turns and the thing is glued to the tarmac. It’s incredibly sensitive to steering inputs and requires tiny amounts of wheel rotation but it’s doable. But then sector 5. I urge everyone to look at sector 5 demonstration, through the first right turn he’s flat out but it’s a bit of a camber and elevation change and the weight shifts and you’re off when you try yourself. You can feel the weight come off and the grip go so it sort of makes sense but getting the time is beyond me.

 

[JDMKING13]

Depends on the car you drive in GT7, some of the Porsches have more docile oversteer and allows you to "catch" the car. The problem is that many cars shouldn't begin to just oversteer, even if you can catch it. The car should begin to slip but still be controllable. There's nothing to "catch" as the car is still within available grip, even GT7s manual even stated that cars turn better under some slip as well, yet that doesn't happen. Many sims, many much older than GT7 illustrate the progressive loss in traction much better.
To give you an example, albeit an old one. Grand Prix Legends with the modeling of 1960's era race tires illustrates how tire slip angles should work before you begin to spin, albeit in a very exaggerated fashion.



But like I posted in page 61, even high downforce cars still snap oversteer at high speeds when it should be massive understeer.

Have you played Ac/ACC before?

 

[Terronium-12]

I'd be intrigued to see someone post a gold time on that sector to see how they did it

I'd post mine if I saved the replay. Only one I saved is IA-10 because I was lead to think it'd be more of a headache than I actually found it to be.

 

[SamTheMadMan]

I'd post mine if I saved the replay. Only one I saved is IA-10 because I was lead to think it'd be more of a headache than I actually found it to be.

Sorry I meant the La Sarthe sector 5 😅

 

[danardif1]

Even trying to ever so gently turn the 908 it still snaps hard, I tried the R92CP license again and that's so good through those corners. Same as the Porsche 919 and both Audi r18s.

It's weird to me how bad the 908 is compared to other LMP

It's just like the steering ratio is like half of what it should be, but only in a select number of cars. The 917 from the S-10 test for example, another powerful mid-engined car that still has aero too, drove really well I found and wasn't on a knife edge on the rear. The Audi, that I keep referring to as I've used it a lot, is really good on traction and in the faster stuff is planted enough, it just has this very sensitive steering rack. I was able to do a 1.59 at Bathurst in it in the final championship so it's not slow or undriveable.

 

[Tenacious D]

Evidently Kaz takes his 996 GT3 or whatever else he owns to track days, and has raced in real world events and probably has an idea on how both those types of vehicles operate.

This is what baffles me. Kaz knows enough to make tuning suggestions to the team in real life races. Of all developers, he should be the one to wrist slap his team when physics are off. Take the physics coders out on track days and test areas when the game is being developed, and have them experience first hand how real cars behave, and use that to tweak what they're making. Sure, every game has patches, many related to physics and handling, some with tuning. But GT7 is... odd. I had to be schooled myself on what constituted realistical car physics, but I came around.

Maybe I'm just strange myself, and got dialed in on all these racers I've played, particularly GT Sport. I also have loads of time to devote to the game as an early retiree, so I have that advantage too. It's probably also thanks to my real life wrecks of which two were pretty bad but without injury, thank God, and only one my fault. The last was in the rain on a rather questionable curve when someone tried to unpolitely push into me and I ended up in someone's yard, with an old airbag punching me in the face when I hit a gravel pile. What a fun day. Because of that, driving in rain scared me for months afterward, and in games it's worse because of the lack of feel I need to know what the deal is from moment to moment. GT7 rain races really bug me.

But the above paragraph explains a bit of why every race I've done in every game has involved a good dose of tension. I hate wrecking or leaving the track, so I very carefully explore the performance envelope of every car in every game, and I learn them. I'm a novice at tuning so I fudge a lot, but I find what works. Because of this, GT7 isn't the horror show for me others are having. Again, I have loads of time to test every car on challenging courses.

I don't want to sound like everyone is right, but it really seems that way to me. Physics and handling are a bit off, but manageably off for me - note, I also have to use the driving assists to help with the management, that "know your limits" thing. When I lose a car, it seems like it's 96% my fault. I know physics patches are forthcoming, so hopefully we'll have something more like (insert your fave racer here / reality) in coming months. And then we can turn most or all of these assists off.

 

[Lord Protector]

Another thing I’ve learnt these past few days is that in GT7 it doesn’t matter what kind of tyres you equip, longitudinal grip (one that matters during acceleration/braking) is always much lower than lateral grip (one that matters during cornering). This means that stepping up 1 or 2 tyre grades isn’t very useful when you’re trying to have a realistic experience. You either get a kinda realistic cornering speeds or kinda realistic acceleration speeds, never both.

Also, the tyre’s grip after they’ve gone over their limit doesn’t seem to increase proportionally to the tyre grade. Meaning: there’s less gap between no spinning grip on comforts and spinning grip on comforts, ergo, it’s easier to catch a spin on comforts. On racing tyres, there’s much higher gap, therefore it’s much more snappier to catch.

You can test this yourself. Pick a car, buy more tyres, test differet tyres cornering speeds and acceleration speeds, then compare and you’ll see yoir acceleration improves only slightly, yet, cornering speeds increase dramatically.

 

[///M3]

That is very true, in converse logic but what we did in amateur racing was “the better the tyres the more we tweaked the suspension”

What that meant was tightening the anti roll bar, and for feel raising the front about 5/6 mil Just to allow for the loading and bite of the brakes to maximum braking. The transition loaded the weight and allowed for a smoother entry to full braking.

You got better braking and on most stuff/tracks it was ok but it was a compromise, mid corner grip could suffer but exit speed could massively suffer but we optimised for the drivers rather than the tracks

 

[extreme car]

Nice driving man, and that’s with a lesser tire! I put softs on my 86 also SH are way to grippy! I would like to see others take that same car and track combinations to see what they got because according to some what you did it’s not supposed to happen.. you were supposed to spin out. 😂

you should try it, maybe you'll have a new finding with GT7 physics. What I got from this test was that the car has an on off switch for tyre grip level over the limit, not fun at all. also that snap oversteering feeling at last corner really bugged me.

 

[BigSarj]

I finally did that Porsche Cup race at Spa using the '09 997. 612pp on IM in the dry. My gosh was that fun. I spun twice due to braking mistakes so I only managed third place but the way I was learning to control the car through my throttle input was a blast. And the way the suspension moves in the replays is beautiful.

It was my first time using a road car (albeit heavily tuned with oversteer in mind) since the update and I liked it a lot more. It could just be me getting more used to it, though.

 

[Mark folsom]

When I am braking in a straight line the rear just wants to snap a bit for no reason, and I don' think it should snap oversteer when braking in a straight line and that means there is something wrong with the physics.

The rear end will swing around if there's no ABS and the rear wheels lock up before the front.

 

[Mark folsom]

Just to make one more point that no one else has yet:

There is absolutely ZERO chance that GT7 can accurately simulate the realistic physics of over 400 cars, some that likely have little to no documentation on how it responded. It's just not possible.

Therefore, they are using a set of rules (or mathematical computations) to decipher handling of cars on a generic way.

This fact alone should be enough to prove that the physics are not realistic. They work for some cars, and don't work for others.

 

[AutumnalGlow]

Just to make one more point that no one else has yet:

There is absolutely ZERO chance that GT7 can accurately simulate the realistic physics of over 400 cars, some that likely have little to no documentation on how it responded. It's just not possible.

Therefore, they are using a set of rules (or mathematical computations) to decipher handling of cars on a generic way.

This fact alone should be enough to prove that the physics are not realistic. They work for some cars, and don't work for others.

They actually can fairly accurately simulate the physics of those cars, in terms of suspension and tires. There's only whatever tire compounds the game has, that part's easy enough. If they really can't get the exact suspension information they need, approximate with period-accurate suspension and it'd be good enough (considering no player would know the difference). It's not like they're a whole other type of machine.