Scaff
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- ScaffUK
Gran Turismo 7 Physics
- Thread starter Shingo_civic
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- 696
- Austria
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On one hand driving is nothing but a bunch of second hand vibrations, oscillations, and the like. Passed through plastic, foam, rubber, and metal. So, one one hand it feels as if it should be a straight forward deal. However, it seems the cockpit matters, rig, stand, whatever.. its all relevant..and annoying in so much that it really does require a very fine touch to dial in something which triggers muscle memory when im using vr. Flat doesn’t seem as relevant. Much easier to do flat and buy it, or at least not have it mess with my normal driving. Its weird.
Ps c- on the satirical, very long, not really funny, more awkward. Maybe next time.
Also…lol that you think dude’s using ai. His prose has been like that since long before you guys got your chat subs
Ps c- on the satirical, very long, not really funny, more awkward. Maybe next time.
Also…lol that you think dude’s using ai. His prose has been like that since long before you guys got your chat subs
- 2,330
- Germany
They could all present different wheels, materials, complete rigs with seats or whatever they could think of, but the FFB itself as a function of the hardware and software would have to be standartized among all competitors (and then it would also be the same for all games).
That is quite possible, but I guess just not welcome for some reason or the other.
- 1,209
- Canada
there's several reasons probably. I mean as good as Iracing and ACC (and even GT7) are, they aren't perfect. They still all take liberties with physical reality, and they each do things in slightly different ways. But even if a sim was theoretically "perfect," it would likely still be problematic to just lock in a given wheel configuration with no ability to adjust it. As a dev, you want to try and make the product as accessible as possible (assuming we're talking about any sort of mass market endeavor that is) and if you don't allow any customizability you're invariably going to end up with a bunch of people who say your sim 's FF "sucks! Feels like crap! Is totally wrong! Completely un-useable!" etc etc, and the fear would be that that would get to be the accepted view of your product. Otoh, as soon as you do allow some customizability - even if as the dev you state outright that certain settings are the "correct" ones - you're invariably going to end up with you-tubers and so forth who land on other settings that they say are "more realistic." It's sort of a no-win situation. But at least with options available individuals can try and arrive at their own happy place lol...
But also, it's important to remember that these are still products meant to appeal to a wide audience. I like realism and I want a good amount of it in my sim, but at the end of the day I'm still just a 58 year old guy sitting in a beach chair in my living room. I maybe don't necessarily want to feel all the actual FF that a real driver of say a Group C car feels. Maybe I only want 60% of that workload. So there needs to be some way to adjust for that.
I'd be happy if devs would just put together more detailed instructions regarding what all the different settings actually do and how they relate to the real forces of a car's steering wheel rather than stuff like "Centering Spring --- Adjusts the centering spring effect"
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- 699
- Austria
Oh yeah, that must be the reason why all pro sim racing is done on GT7 and not on iRacing or ACC.
scnr
- 737
- United States
Man, the last few pages have been... interesting. @Scaff , you're giving waaay too much time and credit to irrational rambling. I can't bear to read those posts, much less dissect them.
I'll speak to my own experience with my T300rs 599.
I forget off the top of my head, but I typically keep FFB at 4, and bump it up to 5 or 6 for the open wheeled cars that have had their steering weight neutered post 1.49. I don't honestly remember where my sensitivity has been set, but it's been where it's at for a long time now.
Through my wheel there is a progressive increase in weight as the tire reaches it's grip limit, then when traction is exceeded the wheel begins to go light. Weight will return if I get back into traction, but will lighten further if turned more into understeer.
If I continue to push there will be vibrations, which to me feels like a representation of tire chatter as the carcass is pushed more and more against its trajectory. Something that happens in reality. It rarely happens to me because pushing into an already understeering tire is right up there with nails on a chalkboard on the scale of uncomfortable things, but it can happen!
GT7 does not perfectly emulate steering behavior, but no sim I've ever played does. ACC and iRacing are both definitely more communicative experiences, but all of them have shortcomings when compared to reality, especially when it comes to the level of torque most people think is "realistic".
That said, GT7 steering feel is not just "noise". The feedback and cues I receive is close enough to the behavior I would experience in a real car that my ability to feel, learn, adjust, and improve is fine. Grip levels, understeer, weight transfer, reduced traction from elevation drops, increased grip during compression, and many other nuances are relayed well enough to be usable, rewarding, and fun.
That's how it goes for me. Of course I can't speak for anyone else. Finding agreement can be difficult in here at times. Every wheel is different, peoples settings are different. Some here are informed by real world experience, some don't know what it feels like to aggressively drive a car, some have never driven a car at all.
Hope this adds something constructive to the discussion.
I'll speak to my own experience with my T300rs 599.
I forget off the top of my head, but I typically keep FFB at 4, and bump it up to 5 or 6 for the open wheeled cars that have had their steering weight neutered post 1.49. I don't honestly remember where my sensitivity has been set, but it's been where it's at for a long time now.
Through my wheel there is a progressive increase in weight as the tire reaches it's grip limit, then when traction is exceeded the wheel begins to go light. Weight will return if I get back into traction, but will lighten further if turned more into understeer.
If I continue to push there will be vibrations, which to me feels like a representation of tire chatter as the carcass is pushed more and more against its trajectory. Something that happens in reality. It rarely happens to me because pushing into an already understeering tire is right up there with nails on a chalkboard on the scale of uncomfortable things, but it can happen!
GT7 does not perfectly emulate steering behavior, but no sim I've ever played does. ACC and iRacing are both definitely more communicative experiences, but all of them have shortcomings when compared to reality, especially when it comes to the level of torque most people think is "realistic".
That said, GT7 steering feel is not just "noise". The feedback and cues I receive is close enough to the behavior I would experience in a real car that my ability to feel, learn, adjust, and improve is fine. Grip levels, understeer, weight transfer, reduced traction from elevation drops, increased grip during compression, and many other nuances are relayed well enough to be usable, rewarding, and fun.
That's how it goes for me. Of course I can't speak for anyone else. Finding agreement can be difficult in here at times. Every wheel is different, peoples settings are different. Some here are informed by real world experience, some don't know what it feels like to aggressively drive a car, some have never driven a car at all.
Hope this adds something constructive to the discussion.
Scaff
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- ScaffUK
Both (and others) are capable of outputting realistic levels of torque; however, you also require a wheelbase that can reach those levels.
Very roughly a few real-world numbers are:
Road Car (power-steering): 2-4Nm
Road Car (no power-steering): 6-10Nm
GT4 Car (power-steering): 4-8Nm
GT3 Car (power-steering): 5-10Nm
Prototypes (power-steering): 10-15Nm
Open-Wheel (no power-steering): 12-20Nm
Open Wheel (power-steering): 10-15Nm
Indy Car (no power-steering): 25Nm
Keep in mind these would be peak figures, and theoretically any car with power-assisted steering could be dialled in to lower levels if a driver was willing to accept a loss of feel.
I've driven non power-steering open-wheel race cars (Formula Ford, Formula Renault, and Formula 4) and can confirm that my 9Nm Moza R9 can reach realistic levels in RaceRoom, PC2, AMS2, AC, etc.
Source:
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- 517
- United States
Just to be clear I'm not one of these folks who will say GT7 has the worst FFB on the planet lol. When I praise ACC, I'm only referring to its expression of tire adhesion... The game does a good job expressing what I perceive to be adhesion and elasticity of the tire. I'm able to more easily feel where the limit of grip is in contrast to GT7.
Also, I feel like the road surface is better expressed via FFB, another critical element that's a bit more numb in GT7 comparatively so. Or maybe I'm misremembering and need to play it again.
I agree that in totality (as a game) ACC doesn't hold a candle to GT7. I also give PD credit for creating a FFB system that works across a variety of classes.
Lastly. I appreciate your posts, insight and your willingness to share settings and assist others in enjoying this game.
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Cap'n Jack
Premium
- 10,129
- South of the South
- GoldMineGutted
I don’t play ACC anymore, but that’s the one thing I miss from my short stint with the game. It just feels absolutely glorious once the tyres are up to temperature, with a wheel at least (can’t speak for controller).
- 517
- United States
Absolutely!! That's exactly what I hope PD can implement into GT7 at some point. I just need a little bit more visceral feeling in some areas. I found it really satisfying in ACC to navigate the tire warmup process and seeing it reflected via the UI.
- 699
- Austria
Noah Eder, a German sim racer (Team Nitro until about a month ago, now driving for Veloce) , just released a video where he is driving online in GT7 for the first time. He's doing Suzuka and Trial Mountain:
He is talking about how GT7 feels for him compared to what he usually drives, ACC and iRacing.
Unfortunately the video is in German and it looks like there are no English subs available. So here's a short summary of what he says:
He says that GT7 is perfect for what it wants to be, but if "physics are important to you and you wanna be as close to the real thing as possible, then GT7 isn't the way to go".
Overall he enjoyed the experience a lot. He praises the graphics, the atmosphere and the huge pool of cars. He had a lot of fun on Race A because events like this aren't available on the more serious sims. He said that he may play GT7 more often in the future.
He is talking about how GT7 feels for him compared to what he usually drives, ACC and iRacing.
Unfortunately the video is in German and it looks like there are no English subs available. So here's a short summary of what he says:
- The cars/FFB feel(s) a bit loose around the center
- When driving on curbs you can loose the car without really feeling much
- When going off track and you get on the throttle you can quickly spin without getting much feedback
- The FFB feels like "nothing". Sometimes you enter a turn, there's no oversteer, no understeer, you're just sliding with all wheels. You don't really feel or understand what the car is doing
- Sometimes you just don't feel the car enough and the car sometimes does things that would never happen in ACC or iRacing
- GT7 doesn't aim to be a real simulation. It's a mix of game and sim but the priority is on gaming.
- It's much more accessible than ACC and iRacing and it's much better optimized for controllers.
- The target audience for GT7 is completely different from ACC and iRacing.
He says that GT7 is perfect for what it wants to be, but if "physics are important to you and you wanna be as close to the real thing as possible, then GT7 isn't the way to go".
Overall he enjoyed the experience a lot. He praises the graphics, the atmosphere and the huge pool of cars. He had a lot of fun on Race A because events like this aren't available on the more serious sims. He said that he may play GT7 more often in the future.
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- 677
- United Kingdom
A great write up for English and interesting to read but as soon as I started the video and saw the wheel being used this was my take away from it...
The main thing I took from this was that it seems to be about the new T598 wheel rather than GT7 physics, and although I am looking to get this wheel, we all know that the reviews are mixed with 'poor force feedback and feel' on GT7 as the wheel isn't fully supported on PlayStation yet, but the PC reviews are really good.
So don't really think this is a fair comparison between PC IRacing / ACC vs PlayStation GT7 physics.
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- 699
- Austria
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