Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[Voodoovaj]

With the shaft shake thing ignoring the nuance of feel and grip limits, steering weight and noise.

We are talking shake that is strong enough to rattle the internals of the wheel base and wheel. We are talking deliberately controlled over rotation for a fraction to timed to accelerating where I'm very much wanting the characteristics of very slight slip at the front to give a slightly better line to wind off steering angle. It is an overkill in how the FFB over amplifies this behaviour and whilst I get for gameplay reasons doesn't make it any less jarring or worrying.

It's more pronounced in the Gr3 cars I think because of the weight and forces are greater. I'm not the fastest guy on the planet but for dailies I can usually land in the top 500-750 which is fairly competitive and have some degree of understanding my inputs and the games outputs quite well.

If I get round to it I'll record a clip and post it.

FYI, it is happening with the controller as well, just in case anyone thought it was just a wheel issue. It seems to me that what is happening is chatter. This happens with motorcycles quite often. It's a case of the tires gripping too much, then releasing because it has no where to go. So, it basically grips, and releases, over and over, causing chatter.

Here's a vid from motogp



It does happen with f1, etc., but it's difficult to see unless you watch the super slow-mos. it shows up in the wings or mirrors shaking.

Still, it shouldn't be rattling the cars (or the wheels from the sounds of it) the way it is at the moment. Also, yes, it's an issue that needs to be fixed. More evidence that the Michelin partnership changed the tires/suspension.

 

[newmedia_dev]

Wow, that's bad. It feels and sounds awful on my TGT-2, let alone something like that. Proper dreadful implementation of it and I didn't exactly think it was good before. Wouldn't wake the neighbours like now though!

I agree, I understand the want/need to provide some form of feedback (audio and mechanical) but it's overkill especially as I'm trying to push on or just over the grip levels deliberately. How else do you drive on the limit if you aren't pushing to it and beyond in a controlled way.

It's like the Hammer Drill setting on a cordless drill or sounds that way. What it is not is buttery and natural feeling. Also my mechanical sympathy means it really hurts/worries me

 

[PirovacBoy]

It's more pronounced in the Gr3 cars I think because of the weight and forces are greater. I'm not the fastest guy on the planet but for dailies I can usually land in the top 500-750 which is fairly competitive and have some degree of understanding my inputs and the games outputs quite well.

It's actually nothing to do with the car class itself, it can and does happen to any car in any class no matter what.
It's only that in high downforce cars which we usually tend to race on racing tires, that both, mechanical as well as aerodynamical grip are much stronger providing far superior grip levels.
These tires have a far more narrow operation windows between grip and grip loss.
Hence if you happen to loose traction in these machineries, of course the intensity and impact will be more severe and pronounced.
On the other hand though, these tires provide so much lateral grip that it takes quite a lot of carelessness and ignorance to not react appropriately way earlier due to prior communicated FFB which if ignored leads to your aforementioned results.
So in the end it's always a driver error not responding accordingly to what the car was trying to tell you.

And to be clear, this has nothing to do with how fast of a driver we are or what DR or TT Leader board or Dailies Leader board Position we have.

It happens because of bad driving habits and inappropriate inputs.
Personally, I don't do TTs' or Daily TTs' because it doesn't represent how good of a driver you are.
It just shows how quick you managed to complete a lap.
Look, me for example I'm currently at around 75000DR in EMEA Region.
But it doesn't mean that I'm a quick driver.
It's a representation of how good of a driver I probably am because usually I'm more or less a second if not a second and a half slower then the fastest guys on this game, But... When I race these guys I can hold my own against them.
Quite often I welcome some of the fastest Guys in my open Lobbies and I'm always astound to notice that our pace is more or less equal.
I have many Replays where I race and win against Szotyi42 and many other people sitting way above my DR Rank.

What I'm saying is that no matter what rank we are, you either know how to drive a car appropriately to its limits and not over its limits or not.
We are all more or less fast drivers, the nuance though lies in the way how and with what precision we can do it.

 

[newmedia_dev]

@PirovacBoy the reason I mention ranks/leaderboard position is because it's indicative of control and ability.

Have you watched my clip? I've done over 6k daily races since launch and not had anything remotely feel or sound like this across a G29, TGT2 and DD Pro

Edit: as we cross posted, I'm aware of where the limits are and using that to my advantage and stepping fractionally over them to optimise my time, line and reduce other inputs, we are talking fraction of a second stuff here.

I feel the car up to the limits and deliberately push briefly beyond them especially in QT or TTs sure in race you don't aim to drive as hard but you have to react in the moment.

I'll also be honest, some of your tone is quite patronising and condescending. And I'm not sure why.

 

[PirovacBoy]

the reason I mention ranks/leaderboard position is because it's indicative of control and ability.

Yes but that's just one side of the medal.
It doesn't show how long it took one to achieve this time.
It also doesn't show how often one has crashed or lost control over the car.
TTs' are just for bragging rights or ego pushing which I'm absolutely fine with.
Been there, seen it... We cool.
I still remember these times, driving for hours just to find that tenth or whatever it was to put me above others...
But did that make me a better driver... Hell no 😅

Have you watched my clip?

Yes I just watched it.
Is that a PlaySeat Trophy your Base is attached to?
I have a PlaySeat Trophy and I can confirm that it sounds exactly the same like in your video.
So nothing to worry about other then indeed it makes me wonder how good it is for the internals.
Though I'm not sure if it's just the resonance of the attachment points the base is mounted to.
I might eventually try to put swap the metal washers with some shock absorbing rubber washers... Might be worth a try.
Because I can't imagine that this horrific sounding vibration is actually happening internally.

 

[newmedia_dev]

Is that a PlaySeat Trophy your Base is attached to?

No, it's a GT Omega Titan on a Sim Floor Matt. I'm not going to post another video but the rig doesn't move or flex at all in fact I have a YT video somewhere showing how solid the base deck is and the pedal plate, it just lacks the adjustability of the Prime

Because I can't imagine that this horrific sounding vibration is actually happening internally.

It's definitely happening internally in litterally FEELING it at the wheel and shaft, my shaft clamp is also upgraded to an O clamp.

Also TTs aren't for bragging rights, they are about how well you can control the car to extract the maximum for your ability. Being fast at them means you are good at testing your own ability vs the car track combination.

 

[PirovacBoy]

I'll also be honest, some of your tone is quite patronising and condescending. And I'm not sure why.

And I'm not sure why you think or feel that way.
I'm not aware what exactly might have triggered you to get that vibe but let me assure you that I 100% didn't meant to make it come across the way it did to you.
I respect you the same was as I do with all of the other people around here.
I'm just trying to provide some feedback and support and reach out a helping hand to the ones struggling with certain things on this game.

I got the impression from your questions that you might be looking for some answers so I tried to be as polite as I could to answer them and provide some useful information.

Unfortunately you apparently got me wrong so I hope we cool and please don't think that way about me, ok.
Because I'm the last person on earth who has bad intentions in mind.
And surely not over here either.
Cheers 🙂

 

[newmedia_dev]

And I'm not sure why you think or feel that way.
I'm not aware what exactly might have triggered you to get that vibe but let me assure you that I 100% didn't meant to make it come across the way it did to you.
I respect you the same was as I do with all of the other people around here.
I'm just trying to provide some feedback and support and reach out a helping hand to the ones struggling with certain things on this game.

I got the impression from your questions that you might be looking for some answers so I tried to be as polite as I could to answer them and provide some useful information.

Unfortunately you apparently got me wrong so I hope we cool and please don't think that way about me, ok.
Because I'm the last person on earth who has bad intentions in mind.
And surely not over here either.
Cheers 🙂

It would have been nice if you'd taken on board that:

1: it was happening and the video proof
2: tell me that because I'm fast doesn't mean I'm good at understanding what I'm feeling, hearing and seeing
3: that my rig is the problem, or my "bad habits" "not knowing what the limits are" implying a poor driving style
4: whacking on some hubris for good measure about DR numbers etc I only mentioned it because you didn't ask and it sets a gauge to someone that is comfortable with a wheel vs someone just getting used to one and all the control fidelity.

We are all good, and I came to report a problem and discuss it especially as it's a considerable difference from a week ago.

 

[NevilleNobody]

Here is a quick video of the noise it's making when there is wheel slip.

I'm not going to edit the driving in because I don't know how 🤣

But this was me doing sector 1 at Nurberg GP in the Gr3 McLaren 650 (in VR not that it matters)

You'll hear the rattle grating is quite loud and doesn't feel nice either. This is me adding a fraction more lock at the apex to straighten the car a little for a sharper exit angle.

Edit: watching it back around 38 seconds in is quite pronounced and brutal.

Wheel FFB 100 and game set at 6 game sensitivity 1

Yep, that's i'm getting. It cannot be god for the unit surely. You should send that to Fanatec.

There's no freaking way it's the rig, I have the same one, it is ROCK solid. I don't really care if it only makes the sound over the limit, if you're racing hard, sometimes you will go over the limit and i dead set honestly feel it is damaging the unit.

 

[LSFDRX]

Yes but that's just one side of the medal.
It doesn't show how long it took one to achieve this time.
It also doesn't show how often one has crashed or lost control over the car.
TTs' are just for bragging rights or ego pushing which I'm absolutely fine with.
Been there, seen it... We cool.
I still remember these times, driving for hours just to find that tenth or whatever it was to put me above others...
But did that make me a better driver... Hell no 😅

While I get that TTs aren't the only way to assess car control/pace or whatever, when you're in the top 1000 or so you don't get there without running consistent laps, learning from mistakes, and sharpening inputs. Nobody is accidentally falling into a top 0.001% lap. It also doesn't matter at all how long it took anyone to get there, as the same applies for races as well. MANY people practice for their races A LOT, turning many laps before they ever enter. When you get beat by someone who practiced more than you do you look down on them for it? I highly doubt it.

TTs are for egos, yet races aren't? Haha, I don't agree at all, and would argue it's way more of the opposite. I think I can see why @newmedia_dev feels a way about your tone. You're disregarding relevant driving skills and insinuating the issue with his wheel is a product of him driving poorly which is likely not the case at all.

I don't see how you practicing a TT doesn't make you a better driver... makes no sense at all. It may not improve your race-craft, but it will absolutely inform you on how to better control your car, learn nuances in the handling model, and improve your own inputs, all things that play out in big ways when you're racing against anyone. Racing isn't only about race-craft, it has a lot to do with DRIVING A CAR QUICKLY, haha.

Newmedia is having a clear issue, and you questioning his skills and the way he or anyone drives isn't helping him to figure anything out.

@newmedia_dev , is there a chance something either externally or internally is loose on your setup? I recognize the vibrations as similar to what I'm feeling on my T300RS (though my vibrations are very minor and assumingly normal), but it's clear there is something more going on with you. It sounds like two solid objects coming in contact with each other, like in an impact gun. I'm sure you've looked it over, but just thought I'd give my 2 cents based on your video.

 

[TheWeapon874]

Here is a quick video of the noise it's making when there is wheel slip.

I'm not going to edit the driving in because I don't know how 🤣

But this was me doing sector 1 at Nurberg GP in the Gr3 McLaren 650 (in VR not that it matters)

You'll hear the rattle grating is quite loud and doesn't feel nice either. This is me adding a fraction more lock at the apex to straighten the car a little for a sharper exit angle.

Edit: watching it back around 38 seconds in is quite pronounced and brutal.

Wheel FFB 100 and game set at 6 game sensitivity 1

And it’s even worse on the DD1…

Definitely isn’t the rig either (I have the NLR GT-Elite).

Like others have said, it only happens when you push the front end way too hard, but it isn’t a great feeling and can’t be good for the equipment

 

[newmedia_dev]

@newmedia_dev , is there a chance something either externally or internally is loose on your setup? I recognize the vibrations as similar to what I'm feeling on my T300RS (though my vibrations are very minor and assumingly normal), but it's clear there is something more going on with you. It sounds like two solid objects coming in contact with each other, like in an impact gun. I'm sure you've looked it over, but just thought I'd give my 2 cents based on your video

There is nothing to rattle, I've double checked and triple checked I can stand on the wheel deck if people really need to see that 🤣

It's definitely the wheel base and I'll concede maybe a bit of me abusing the understeer for pace reasons, so definitely stepping briefly outside of the grip envelope. That is deliberate and definitely not something that was happening 1/2 weeks ago. I've raced using an ironing board so know what it feels like when things are less than planted 🤣

I'll go back through and check my wheel settings but honestly I've had them for nearly a year and it's all been fine and communicative, I deliberately dial down feedback sensitivity as it's distracting when you want to push, too much detail has you correcting slides that aren't there or slip that is only minor (RWD)

I can set it all back to default and see how we go but that shaft shudder regardless if I am ham fisted or have the finesse of Senna should not be that pronounced.

 

[RS60NR]

@newmedia_dev not feeling/hearing anything so severe on DD+ so unless something weird in your settings, something is off w the base.

The A_S setting on the wheel is actually quite good - PD did try and tune for the DD Pro/+ so might try that just to see any diff

 

[newmedia_dev]

@newmedia_dev not feeling/hearing anything so severe on DD+ so unless something weird in your settings, something is off w the base.

The A_S setting on the wheel is actually quite good - PD did try and tune for the DD Pro/+ so might try that just to see any diff

Just about to go back to default A_S settings and see how that is, it might be my damper setting and I have it lower so I can countersteer quicker but I'd expect less shake on the shaft rather than more? 🤷‍♂️

Will try and see

 

[LSFDRX]

It's definitely the wheel base and I'll concede maybe a bit of me abusing the understeer for pace reasons, so definitely stepping

This makes total sense as GT7s model often rewards pushing into understeer more than seems appropriate.

I often find myself pushing more into understeer and finding more time because staying within the limits of the carcass/traction/tire squeal doesn't always equal maximal front end grip. The model rewards excessive understeer, so it's understandable that you exploit that.

Good luck with the rig.

 

[PirovacBoy]

When you get beat by someone who practiced more than you do you look down on them for it? I highly doubt it.

Why should I look down on them. Makes no sense what you say.
It's actually the opposite.

TTs are for egos, yet races aren't? Haha, I don't agree at all,

You not agree on what? Where did I compare TT VS Races...?!
There literally is nothing to agree with or not. Funny 🙃

and would argue it's way more of the opposite

Again I never said anything remotely close to what you're trying to argue, so actually who is now insinuating...,?! Crazy. 😅

You're disregarding relevant driving skills and insinuating

Wait, what...?! Where...?. Insinuating...?!
You definitely interpret a tad bit too much here.
And again, don't know where I insinuate as I literally didn't say anything which should lead to such an assumption.

Racing isn't only about race-craft, it has a lot to do with DRIVING A CAR QUICKLY, haha.

Well but I think it's safe to say power is nothing without control.

Newmedia is having a clear issue, and you questioning his skills and the way he or anyone drives isn't helping him to figure anything out.

I'm not questioning his or anyones skills who is having an issue with this specific update and the introduction of this new “vibration" feature.
Who am I to question anyone.?!
I'm just pointing out WHAT habits or driving approach does trigger this effect.
Of course it's up to anyone but them what they make of that information which I clearly described how it happens and how to avoid it.
I don't see how that can be negative or unuseful.
Quite the opposite if you ask me.

On the other hand, in the DD Extreme Subthread I just recently described more or less detailed how to technically and Wheelbase Settings wise to tone down this effect to a less unpleasant feeling.
So actually my only intentions are ALWAYS and only to help and provide useful information.

But apparently my tone gives some people room for interpretation, which again is each ones personal decision how to react.
Sometimes it really makes me belive I'm talking to... Very insecure people.
Otherwise I don't understand how one can think the way they do.

 

[newmedia_dev]

Ya see @PirovacBoy its that sort of response that feels less than helpful.

 

[Nebuc72]

Why should I look down on them. Makes no sense what you say.
It's actually the opposite.

You not agree on what? Where did I compare TT VS Races...?!
There literally is nothing to agree with or not. Funny 🙃

Again I never said anything remotely close to what you're trying to argue, so actually who is now insinuating...,?! Crazy. 😅

Wait, what...?! Where...?. Insinuating...?!
You definitely interpret a tad bit too much here.
And again, don't know where I insinuate as I literally didn't say anything which should lead to such an assumption.


Well but I think it's safe to say power is nothing without control.

I'm not questioning his or anyones skills who is having an issue with this specific update and the introduction of this new “vibration" feature.
Who am I to question anyone.?!
I'm just pointing out WHAT habits or driving approach does trigger this effect.
Of course it's up to anyone but them what they make of that information which I clearly described how it happens and how to avoid it.
I don't see how that can be negative or unuseful.
Quite the opposite if you ask me.

On the other hand, in the DD Extreme Subthread I just recently described more or less detailed how to technically and Wheelbase Settings wise to tone down this effect to a less unpleasant feeling.
So actually my only intentions are ALWAYS and only to help and provide useful information.

But apparently my tone gives some people room for interpretation, which again is each ones personal decision how to react.
Sometimes it really makes me belive I'm talking to... Very insecure people.
Otherwise I don't understand how one can think the way they do.

Just so you're aware mate, insinuating ( ) everyone else is insecure because people constantly have problems with your tone is the problem that people have with you.

If everywhere you go smells of dog crap, check your own shoes.

 

[Vule]

I'm just pointing out WHAT habits or driving approach does trigger this effect.

This "effect" was triggered by the latest update.

His driving habits or skills have nothing to do with it. His wheelbase didn't rattle before the GT7 update, his wheelbase doesn't rattle on AC, ACC, Forza, WRC, iRacing or any other sim, even though his driving style is the same.

So it's not the skill, style, tires, car class or anything of sorts, it's just the effect PD implemented in attempt to amplify the understeer feedback, and they broke it, again, like only they know how.

I can bet any money there will be a fix for this in some of the next updates, meaning they will admit it was not implemented in a correct way.

 

[PirovacBoy]

Ya see @PirovacBoy its that sort of response that feels less than helpful.

What exactly you mean? Response on what exactly?
I don't get what you trying to say.
Sorry...

Just so you're aware mate, insinuating ( ) everyone else is insecure because people constantly have problems with your tone is the problem that people have with you.

If everywhere you go smells of dog crap, check your own shoes.

Well saying people having constantly issues with me is to say the least a tiny bit exaggerated but ok that's your opinion.
Some people would have been more precise but, ok... If you say so.

Apparently you can't please em all so yeah it is what it is I guess.

My tone is my personality and I definitely won't betray myself just to be everybody's darling 😅

I was never disrespectful or rude to anyone here.
I never actively or on purpose tried to bash someone or ridicule one.
I always try to act as grown up as possible or within the rules.
Hence it's actually... Strange, that some people get that vibe out of my tone.

 

[LSFDRX]

@PirovacBoy

"It's actually nothing to do with the car class itself, it can and does happen to any car in any class no matter what." Said directly in response to newmedia saying that in GR3 on slick tires the effect is more pronounced. You fundamentally agree in concept, yet felt the need to try and minimalize/invalidate his statement.

"On the other hand though, these tires provide so much lateral grip that it takes quite a lot of carelessness and ignorance to not react appropriately way earlier due to prior communicated FFB which if ignored leads to your aforementioned results." Again, said in response to newmedia, clearly telling him, not insinuating, that he is being careless and ignorant in the way he is driving. That all goes hand-in-hand with ignoring the fact that GT7 REWARDS pushing into understeer quite a bit.

"So in the end it's always a driver error not responding accordingly to what the car was trying to tell you." Again, in response to newmedia... how could one NOT see this as a direct response to them? Don't be delusional.

"It happens because of bad driving habits and inappropriate inputs." See above.

"Who am I to question anyone.?!... I'm just pointing out WHAT habits or driving approach does trigger this effect." You're overexplaining concepts like he doesn't know. Condescending.

"Why should I look down on them. Makes no sense what you say...You not agree on what? Where did I compare TT VS Races...?!" What ELSE could you be referencing when you say that "being fast in a TT doesn't mean you're fast" and literally saying you're "faster than them in races"?!

"I'm not questioning his or anyone's skills who is having an issue with this specific update and the introduction of this new “vibration" feature... Who am I to question anyone.?!" You are ONE-HUNDRED PERCENT questioning someone's skills when you reply directly to them and tell them that it can only be due to "carelessness", "ignorance", or "not reacting properly". How could it be interpreted as any different?!

I don't know if it's some cold, unwavering German adherence to emotionless fact, but your tone sucks. You CLEARLY have no idea how you come off, even when you're literally insulting someone directly. This isn't anyone being "insecure", it's you parading around here like a holier-than-thou expert, overexplaining concepts I don't feel you have the best understanding of, then pretending you were nice and helpful.

It's not us... it's you.

 

[newmedia_dev]

What exactly you mean? Response on what exactly?
I don't get what you trying to say.
Sorry...

The message directly above yours, you dissected a post about how you were and I'm paraphrasing here quite condescending. After being condescending to me.

I actually tried the default settings again as a base line and they were much better than yours for curing the issue I was talking about.

I don't actually agree with a lot of your setting suggestions especially on the torque settings as they aren't born in any reality, you can't get and useful resistance which is critical for feel in some cars because it's just too light so very difficult to balance the weight transfer when you can't feel the actual loading.

But this is off topic, and I'd rather take this to DMs if you want to carry on. But for complete transparency the holier than thou and knows everything vibe isn't cool dude.

Be humble, your settings aren't the best for all people and nor are they what the really fast guys are using, I'd also question wether it's even possible to carte blanche offer settings that offer the best experience to all people especially as with torque needing to be changed as a minimum depending on car.

 

[NevilleNobody]

This "effect" was triggered by the latest update.

His driving habits or skills have nothing to do with it. His wheelbase didn't rattle before the GT7 update, his wheelbase doesn't rattle on AC, ACC, Forza, WRC, iRacing or any other sim, even though his driving style is the same.

So it's not the skill, style, tires, car class or anything of sorts, it's just the effect PD implemented in attempt to amplify the understeer feedback, and they broke it, again, like only they know how.

I can bet any money there will be a fix for this in some of the next updates, meaning they will admit it was not implemented in a correct way.

Thi sis bang on, I have the EXACT same thing on my wheelbase, it's coming from the shaft.

 

[RS60NR]

for the bases with the heavy banging, is there play either left right or in/out with the wheel shaft relative to the base? even a very slight amount? there should be no play at all, just rotation - if there is then likely a bearing is worn or not seated properly

It would be triggered by the update because the update has significantly increased the vibration effect from almost none previously so any extra play could make that noise

 

[TheWeapon874]

Quick update - I was re-reading over old updates, and noticed that an earlier one (can't remember exactly, but pretty recent) mentioned to use 'AUTO SETUP' on the wheel for the DD1. I had never used this in the past, but thought I'd give it a quick try this morning (with in-game max torque on 8 and sensitivity on 8, which I think are the settings the world series guys have to use).... and the issue was gone*

*I say gone.....I only tested a Gr4 car. More to come.

 

[newmedia_dev]

for the bases with the heavy banging, is there play either left right or in/out with the wheel shaft relative to the base? even a very slight amount? there should be no play at all, just rotation - if there is then likely a bearing is worn or not seated properly

It would be triggered by the update because the update has significantly increased the vibration effect from almost none previously so any extra play could make that noise

I'll try tomorrow, but as we are only doing clock wise circuits on dailies at the mo, I'll go do some CEs that run reverse of some reverse layout TTs.

I'll be honest as it's a DD wheel less than 2 years old I'm not sure bearings are the issue, instinctively I'd expect them to be intermittent, but you can see my inputs aren't weird but some quick snatches to catch the oversteer.

The default base settings have done some work to dial out the most of the issue but it comes in a lack of fidelity, especially as I prefer a more direct feeling over more "noise" it's a preference thing.

 

[NevilleNobody]

for the bases with the heavy banging, is there play either left right or in/out with the wheel shaft relative to the base? even a very slight amount? there should be no play at all, just rotation - if there is then likely a bearing is worn or not seated properly

It would be triggered by the update because the update has significantly increased the vibration effect from almost none previously so any extra play could make that noise

Nope, mine is rock solid and a new unit with low miles. The grinding is brutal.

 

[RS60NR]

Nope, mine is rock solid and a new unit with low miles. The grinding is brutal.

I only mention as there have been QC issues over the past months, so worth checking