Gran Turismo 7 Tuning Shop & GT Auto

[XSquareStickIt]

I realise this is unrealistic, but with how Kaz made special mention of roll cages and wide body kits, I'm personally hoping that we can take any production road car and turn them into Gr. 4 or Gr. 3 eligible specs. I'm fantasising about making my own RX-7 Gr. 4 or recreating the Amemiya RX-7 that won GT300 in 2006.

Which would of course, mean that I hope the suspension, brakes, LSD, gearbox, and aero tuning parts would give us enough flexibility to achieve that. The current system we have in GTS doesn't allow us to stiffen the spring rates enough, nor allows us to play with the torque curves of cars.

 

[CoopR_26]

I realise this is unrealistic, but with how Kaz made special mention of roll cages and wide body kits, I'm personally hoping that we can take any production road car and turn them into Gr. 4 or Gr. 3 eligible specs. I'm fantasising about making my own RX-7 Gr. 4 or recreating the Amemiya RX-7 that won GT300 in 2006.

Which would of course, mean that I hope the suspension, brakes, LSD, gearbox, and aero tuning parts would give us enough flexibility to achieve that. The current system we have in GTS doesn't allow us to stiffen the spring rates enough, nor allows us to play with the torque curves of cars.

This is what I'm hoping for as well. Maybe they won't fit in the same category as the cars that are in the Gr.3 class right now, but being able to make them look and perform like one would be awesome!

 

[05XR8]

Suspension tuning has definitely lacked in Gran Turismo. We just can’t get stiff enough springs for normal cars. If people look back to GT4 and compare the Amuse Street Version, Amuse R1 Titan and S2000 GT1, the normal S2000 can’t be stiffened enough with the racing suspension. I do hope PD can offer the same suspension adjustments as tuned cars from real life.

 

[o000o]

I realise this is unrealistic, but with how Kaz made special mention of roll cages and wide body kits, I'm personally hoping that we can take any production road car and turn them into Gr. 4 or Gr. 3 eligible specs. I'm fantasising about making my own RX-7 Gr. 4 or recreating the Amemiya RX-7 that won GT300 in 2006.

Which would of course, mean that I hope the suspension, brakes, LSD, gearbox, and aero tuning parts would give us enough flexibility to achieve that. The current system we have in GTS doesn't allow us to stiffen the spring rates enough, nor allows us to play with the torque curves of cars.

Probably unrealistic now, but that's what PS1 GTs have, a racing modification for almost every car in the game:

 

[dacc10]

I realise this is unrealistic, but with how Kaz made special mention of roll cages and wide body kits, I'm personally hoping that we can take any production road car and turn them into Gr. 4 or Gr. 3 eligible specs. I'm fantasising about making my own RX-7 Gr. 4 or recreating the Amemiya RX-7 that won GT300 in 2006.

Which would of course, mean that I hope the suspension, brakes, LSD, gearbox, and aero tuning parts would give us enough flexibility to achieve that. The current system we have in GTS doesn't allow us to stiffen the spring rates enough, nor allows us to play with the torque curves of cars.

Turning a road car into Gr.4 is theoretically possible, as all Gr.4 cars in GTS are normal road cars, with some basic body kits. The internal specs are easy to do, as they are just stats at the end of the day, the problem is the interior, which wouldn't me modeled like the other Gr.4 cars have.

This raises the question: what about creating a separate class (Gr.5), for custom race cars? Instead of trying to mimic the cars of any existing classes, just create another, where it's "acceptable" to keep the road car interiors. Everything balanced by the PP system.

 

[syntex123]

This raises the question: what about creating a separate class (Gr.5), for custom race cars? Instead of trying to mimic the cars of any existing classes, just create another, where it's "acceptable" to keep the road car interiors. Everything balanced by the PP system.

Or just call it what they used to call it in GT1. RM.

 

[dacc10]

RM is not a class. And there are already classes in the game where those original RM cars would fit (Gr.3 or Gr.4).

What I mean is, picking up road legal cars, tuning them so they become "makeshift" race cars (without bothering with changing the interior), so they can actually fit into a class. So technically, almost any road car could become a race car with an actual class to race in (Gr.5).

 

[CBH]

RM is not a class. And there are already classes in the game where those original RM cars would fit (Gr.3 or Gr.4).

What I mean is, picking up road legal cars, tuning them so they become "makeshift" race cars (without bothering with changing the interior), so they can actually fit into a class. So technically, almost any road car could become a race car with an actual class to race in (Gr.5).

I prefer a RM type class than a Gr.5.

 

[Samus]

The point of groups and classes is to, well, group similar performing cars together. Granted it doesn't do that very well right now but a RM class would be utterly useless, like Gr.X. It would be full of vastly different performing cars, so what would be the point? RM is not a class, as dacc10 says. But mind you neither would a Gr.5, it would be the exact same problem.

If they're going to persist with only a handful of classes they're going to have to continue mixing real world racing classes to try and achieve some sort of parity.

 

[05XR8]

Which GR.4 is pretty much Super Taikyu that needs to be separated and into those ST-classes.

Or just call it what they used to call it in GT1. RM.

For sure. However, in the OP, Kaz is calling "widebody" the sort of racing modification of GT7.
A widebody modification can be just a widening of the fenders and/or bolt-on overfenders, through to a full on chassis widening.

If there is to be a new version of the GT4 Tuning Grand Prix, the PP system(if programmed properly) should sort any modifications. Custom Race options, should then allow players infinite choices to place vehicles how they wish.

 

[Dave A]

Why does the class have to be RM, why do the race modified road cars have to be Gr.4. If the PP rating is an accurate enough rating of a cars performance then there's no need to shoehorn race modified road cars into a single class. They can be whatever class thier PP rating puts them into.

Having a system where all race tuned road cars fit neatly into Gr4 or Gr3 would be dull. There's no reason to fit them into a label, just manage the events correctly to the event restrictions keep the races close.

I think @fordlaser was suggesting that RM be a catch all label for race modified cars in exactly the same way it was in GT1 and 2, that didn't mean that all RM cars qualified for the same events. I've said it before, it should be the events that create the restrictions and not the cars themselves.

 

[CBH]

The point of groups and classes is to, well, group similar performing cars together. Granted it doesn't do that very well right now but a RM class would be utterly useless, like Gr.X. It would be full of vastly different performing cars, so what would be the point? RM is not a class, as dacc10 says. But mind you neither would a Gr.5, it would be the exact same problem.

If they're going to persist with only a handful of classes they're going to have to continue mixing real world racing classes to try and achieve some sort of

Racing Modifications classes sounds good, but I be happy in there were no classes and use your RM in any PP regulation race in GT7.

 

[syntex123]

RM + PP makes more sense than Gr4,3,2 etc. for the street cars turned race car indeed. I’m too tired to explain but I agree with those who agreed with me. Strong points.

 

[Samus]

Well I still think Gr. has gone anyway, that's what they said in the interview for GTP. It was seen in the early footage but it wasn't in the latest stuff, just PP.

So I think PP is all we're going to have in the final game. Which is fine. The limited groups will never work.

 

[snc]

Oh for sure there will be proper bop with similar gr1-4 as in gt sport at least in fia and some daily races (as Kaz said when there is need bop can be used), cant imagine mayhem and silines when only pp are used for fia races

 

[Samus]

Indeed that's what the interview insinuates. PP for most uses, but when they want to bring similar real life cars from the same category together, they'll use BOP.

 

[Islaygaz]

Hope the tuning shop can help recreate this bad boy!

 

[dacc10]

Relying on PP only, is strange. A Bugatti Veyron may have a similar PP value to a GT3 car, yet their performance is completely different. Without Gr.3 classification for example, they will have to filter out everything that has a similar PP, but different "purpose" than those cars originally intended for that Group. I still think the best system would be a combination of both PP and Gr.# system (N-classes and Gr.X should be entirely ditched though).

As for RM, that concept is obsolete. If in GT1 it was fairly easy to make an RM for any car, now it's not. Now it takes as much time to make a full RM (like in GT5) as it takes to make any of the Gr.3 fictional cars. If we are able to do to road cars something similar to what RMs did in GT5 (which I doubt, but we will see), then those cars would fit like a glove either in Gr.3 or Gr.4, instead of being paired up against road cars that happen to have a similar PP.

The question I ask is, if there are events that are limited to road cars, at what point does a modified road car (similar to RM) is considered a race car? RMs were automatically considered race cars, but what about a road car slowly becoming a race car? What's the threshold of said classification? A specific part being added (or a combination of certain parts)? Or everything is thrown into the same bag? Unless the PP system is done for each individual track, a general PP system won't be accurate for every track.

 

[Dave A]

Relying on PP only, is strange. A Bugatti Veyron may have a similar PP value to a GT3 car, yet their performance is completely different. Without Gr.3 classification for example, they will have to filter out everything that has a similar PP, but different "purpose" than those cars originally intended for that Group. I still think the best system would be a combination of both PP and Gr.# system (N-classes and Gr.X should be entirely ditched though).

If the PP is the same/similar but the performance is vastly different then the PP is broken. The whole point of it is to grade cars by their performance. I understand performance similarities on one track might be more different on another though.

As for RM, that concept is obsolete. If in GT1 it was fairly easy to make an RM for any car, now it's not. Now it takes as much time to make a full RM (like in GT5) as it takes to make any of the Gr.3 fictional cars. If we are able to do to road cars something similar to what RMs did in GT5 (which I doubt, but we will see), then those cars would fit like a glove either in Gr.3 or Gr.4, instead of being paired up against road cars that happen to have a similar PP.

The way I see it, PP would be a general performance figure to indicate what cars will compete with others. It shouldn't be the only form of classification. You can combine PP with BHP, power to weight, weight, the cars dimensions etc. You can even revert to the "you need this car, that car or the other car to enter this event" restrictions for certain events as needed. It's all about variety and being clever with the different types of restrictions you use for different events.

The question I ask is, if there are events that are limited to road cars, at what point does a modified road car (similar to RM) is considered a race car? RMs were automatically considered race cars, but what about a road car slowly becoming a race car? What's the threshold of said classification? A specific part being added (or a combination of certain parts)? Or everything is thrown into the same bag? Unless the PP system is done for each individual track, a general PP system won't be accurate for every track.

I would say a good idea would be to have stock spec car events and tuned events, the tuned events could be limited so any semi-racing, racing or extreme parts are not allowed, only stock and sports. Maybe you could allow semi-racing parts, but there are plenty of ways.

As for the PP system, you're right, you couldn't have a single perfroamnce rating that would give you a match on any track, it would have to be a balance. I wouldn't want it to be track specific, that creates it's own problems. For example, your 400pp car maxed out to compete in a 400pp event sudenly is a 420pp car in race 2 and you have to start the championship over. So it should only be a good indicator, but by combining it with other restrictions for each event you can create whatever rules you want.

 

[Samus]

If the PP is the same/similar but the performance is vastly different then the PP is broken. The whole point of it is to grade cars by their performance.

Exactly, but as you say they really should be dynamic by track. A Veyron is probably going to be better than a GT3 car around Monza but something tight and twisty it's going to be far slower.

 

[05XR8]

As I posted with Keiichi Tsuchiya's GT86, he says now his car can compete with a stock GR86. Depending on the tyre he chooses(from the choices he mentioned), he can change the performance. Aided with camber adjustment, in theory, that should change PP as well.

Now, just because I mod my car exactly like Tsuchiya's FT86(his engine is stock bar the air filter and exhaust), I shouldn't be able to battle M4s. I'm talking AI using M4s.

Getting the PP right won't mean much if the AI still aren't up to the task( I'll take this concern to discuss in the AI thread, of course). However, hopefully the balance is done well for Lobby and personal testing.

 

[snc]

If the PP is the same/similar but the performance is vastly different then the PP is broken.

with pp system you can have very different behaving car on track with similar time laps, and it will be mayhem in online racing when one car has totaly different breaking point than other, I think this pp system is ok for singleplayer and maybe some additional new gt sport daily race and thats all

 

[Samus]

with pp system you can have very different behaving car on track with similar time laps, and it will be mayhem in online racing when one car has totaly different breaking point than other, I think this pp system is ok for singleplayer and maybe some additional new gt sport daily race and thats all

That's how Gran Turismo has always been until Sport though.

 

[05XR8]

The PP doesn't even have to come into play. We already see how an FF is slower at mid-corner & corner exit, when ahead of an MR, FR and 4WD.

The characteristics of cars can't be balanced via PP, per say. Look at the Goodwood videos. Or any classic car racing video. The Mini decimates cars twice and three times its weight. Some Minis aren't that slow on the straights either.
Does a casual player care about different characteristics over multiple different vehicles? Are they going to understand or work out why their car b haves the way it does? As mentioned above, it's been this way from the jump.

 

[snc]

The PP doesn't even have to come into play. We already see how an FF is slower at mid-corner & corner exit, when ahead of an MR, FR and 4WD.

The characteristics of cars can't be balanced via PP, per say. Look at the Goodwood videos. Or any classic car racing video. The Mini decimates cars twice and three times its weight. Some Minis aren't that slow on the straights either.
Does a casual player care about different characteristics over multiple different vehicles? Are they going to understand or work out why their car b haves the way it does? As mentioned above, it's been this way from the jump.

Thats why people playing online would like to see polyphony creating additional groups to separate even better cars tough its polyphony so not happen

 

[dacc10]

The PP system, no matter how good it is, will always be flawed. Group system combined with PP system, would be better in my opinion. Atleast there would be a division between race car and road car PP.

Now, with the tuned cars, IF we are able to turn road cars into effectively race cars (with track performance just like race cars) then the PP system will not be enough, as it would suffer the same problem as a GT3 car having a similar PP to something like a Veyron.
If they allow effectively race cars (tuned cars with race car performance) to face up against road cars, might as well open the floodgates and allow players to use Gr.3 cars. In the end, completely random car selections.

Even disallowing parts from the racing and extreme tabs isn't right, as some of those parts don't really make your car perform like a race car. A racing exhaust will make your car slightly faster due to the increase in power, but it won't make it drive like a race car. So at what point are they considered race cars, the same way RMs in GT5 were? This might create a balancing issue, mainly online.

 

[o000o]

The PP system, no matter how good it is, will always be flawed. Group system combined with PP system, would be better in my opinion. Atleast there would be a division between race car and road car PP.

Now, with the tuned cars, IF we are able to turn road cars into effectively race cars (with track performance just like race cars) then the PP system will not be enough, as it would suffer the same problem as a GT3 car having a similar PP to something like a Veyron.
If they allow effectively race cars (tuned cars with race car performance) to face up against road cars, might as well open the floodgates and allow players to use Gr.3 cars. In the end, completely random car selections.

Even disallowing parts from the racing and extreme tabs isn't right, as some of those parts don't really make your car perform like a race car. A racing exhaust will make your car slightly faster due to the increase in power, but it won't make it drive like a race car. So at what point are they considered race cars, the same way RMs in GT5 were? This might create a balancing issue, mainly online.

This'd be a harder task, but I think I'd prefer having individual stats for each car's aspects (with PP as overall) rather than group system especially the N-class. While GTS does have it, I don't quite understand the stats for some cars there tbh.

I don't think that you need for a car to be a 'race car' to be formidable, which is what the Extreme tab is about I guess. Fitting Turbo Kit Stage 4 can increase the car's hp into phenomenal amount, but it still doesn't make said car a race car, but it still can make the car dominant in races so yeah the disallowing is necessary based on the car's performance, not if it's road or race.

 

[MIE1992]

Not sure if I said it already in this particular thread, but I mentioned in at least one thread this idea I had. What if BoP only applied to stock N-Series cars, and if you modify one, it removes it from the group, leaving it with just its PP rating? That could also explain why some road cars in the trailers so far have a group as well as a PP rating, while some only have a PP rating.

It certainly seems like a good way to balance the N-Series cars when you factor in all these new ways you can modify the cars. Otherwise, I think trying to have the game apply BoP to modified cars would be a fool's errand. This would also likely eliminate "inter-class" cars like we saw in N-Series races within GT Sport.

We could even see online events that don't use BoP, but instead use a PP limit instead. This could also apply to Gr.X cars, like the classic racing prototypes that raced at Le Mans. And as I may've alluded to earlier, this could allow players to race their modified cars against each other, as they'd ultimately all comply with a PP limit.

 

[05XR8]

I don’t think we could use RM cars for the GT3 events in GT6. I do remember buying the Elise, upgrading to RM and trying to win the Dream Car championship.
In GTS, it would have made sense to categorise the Fantasy cars like any Gr.3 and VGT, while keeping GT3 separate. This would open it up to allow customised cars to compete versus Gr.3 and VGT. However, separating them from the homolgated GT3/GTE cars.

 

[dacc10]

This'd be a harder task, but I think I'd prefer having individual stats for each car's aspects (with PP as overall) rather than group system especially the N-class. While GTS does have it, I don't quite understand the stats for some cars there tbh.

I don't think that you need for a car to be a 'race car' to be formidable, which is what the Extreme tab is about I guess. Fitting Turbo Kit Stage 4 can increase the car's hp into phenomenal amount, but it still doesn't make said car a race car, but it still can make the car dominant in races so yeah the disallowing is necessary based on the car's performance, not if it's road or race.

The N-class made no sense in the first place. HP is not enough measure of performance for anything. For stock/slightly modified road cars, PP is enough, as their performance at a certain PP range, isn't that far apart, with the exception of "track toys" like the KTM. This is where track-based PP would be better, to help distinguish track performance between cars.

The thing is, a Turbo makes the car faster in a straight line, and that's about it. In a corner-heavy track, it will make little difference. A race car is an improvement in pretty much everything, except straight line performance. Not only are the lap times faster, they are more consistent, plus those cars are easier to drive. In GT6, no matter the setup you give to a car, it wouldn't behave like a proper race car.

How does PP measure downforce? It can be a benefit in some tracks and a drawback in others, so increasing downforce on a car raises or lowers the PP?