Gran Turismo Car Models Now Made in Three Months, Outsourced to India

[RandomCarGuy17]

I'm not too surprised by this, I recall hearing PD starting to outsource back when GT Sport started getting DLC cars. Now it's completely confirmed and it explains how PD was able to add multiple dlc cars to GTSport for months on end.

Though my predictions are still the same, 500 cars at launch is the max I see being possible for GT7. This is based on the amount of cars PD was able to add to GTS in 2018 & 19.

 

[ImaRobot]

Good news: we can expect more cars.
Bad news: we can probably say goodbye to the free updates...

I wouldn't necessarily say that. T10/PG still release a good amount of free content.

Other bad news: Probably the quality of the cars will be lower (look at forza and driveclub for example)

What exactly are we supposed to look at? Like mentioned, The best car models in Forza are actually the outsourced, newer vehicles, like @TheAdmiester noted. The ones with major inconsistencies are the ones that have lingered since the first few games.

It's interesting to see the general consensus has totally shifted from what it used to be years ago, concerning outsourcing. It used to be the devils work.

 

[PSN:And-War]

personally I think this is bad, outsourcing you lose quality, I hope PD are doing some finishing touches to the models.

great more jobs going to India, sorry im just bitter as I was laid off and my job went to India.

 

[Robin]

Remember when PD's employees were sleeping under their desks?

Yeah, I can see why they now outsource. Given the size and scope of games these days it's not uncommon for multiple studios to be working on assets. It will all still go to head office for quality control and signing off so there shouldn't be any noticeable decline. If anything the quality might improve if more people are working on it. However, why India? Could they not have outsourced to a developer in Japan? Is it literally a case of development costs?

 

[Nowax]

Surely some good news, I was worrying about the car list since now we'll have used cars and new cars.

 

[Freeman_Cruz]

Perhaps the 6 months that they mentioned previously were not only of modeling but included the negotiation with the owners of the cars and the brands that intervened, the organization of the trip, the taking of measurements, photographs, recording the sound of the engine, the consolidation of data, etc

 

[Faultier]

Kaz said it takes 6 months. That probably includes everything to get it in the game.

I did not believe that when he said it.
These days its all about 3d scan.

I say - a talented designer has one 3d model finished within a work week.
3 or even 6 months is ridicolous.

 

[Dave A]

I did not believe that when he said it.
These days its all about 3d scan.

I say - a talented designer has one 3d model finished within a work week.
3 or even 6 months is ridicolous.

While you probably can create a fairly detailed 3d model in a week or two, the 3d scans can't go straight into the game and you have the different LOD's to make and tweak. The interior and exterior needs modelling, all the texture work needs doing and that's before you have to start any actual coding and preparing any animations, sound and colision detection.

Including the really fiddly work of tuning the cars physics and sound etc. and getting it working exactley how PD want in game, I'd say that 6 months is about right from having no model to the end of the process and I'm pretty sure it tallies with the work that goes into each new car model that appears in Forza games as well. The sound work alone can take a while.

 

[Samus]

personally I think this is bad, outsourcing you lose quality, I hope PD are doing some finishing touches to the models.

great more jobs going to India, sorry im just bitter as I was laid off and my job went to India.

Why would you automatically lose quality? Do you believe only PD employees can model quality cars?

 

[Sage Ages]

I say - a talented designer has one 3d model finished within a work week.

Yeah.... no.

 

[Dave A]

Yeah.... no.

A talented 3d modeller who makes 3d cars could make a reference model in that time frame, no reason to think they couldn't. But to make a model work in a game engine there's a lot more work to do than just that one mesh at whatever level of detail was chosen. Obviousely the more detailed a model the longer it will typically take, but some people can pull off some seriousely good mesh work in 20-30hrs.

It makes sense to me for the 3-6 months time frame is for the whole process of modeling to the car at all it's LOD's and implemeting it to work as intended into the game.

 

[Shingo_civic]

I wouldn't necessarily say that. T10/PG still release a good amount of free content.


What exactly are we supposed to look at? Like mentioned, The best car models in Forza are actually the outsourced, newer vehicles, like @TheAdmiester noted. The ones with major inconsistencies are the ones that have lingered since the first few games.

It's interesting to see the general consensus has totally shifted from what it used to be years ago, concerning outsourcing. It used to be the devils work.

Take any car on frza,even the newer ones and do a comparison with the ones made by Polyphony themselves and you will notice many detail are missing or are incorrect on forza (same thing for driveclub or project cars)

 

[ImaRobot]

Take any car on frza,even the newer ones and do a comparison with the ones made by Polyphony themselves and you will notice many detail are missing or are incorrect on forza (same thing for driveclub or project cars)

I figured since you made the claim that you'd be able to show otherwise. I'm guessing it's just an assumption? It would make more sense to use real life as a bench mark, not GTS.

As far as I've seen, it's far from being a major thing with the vast majority of the car list. It's the exception, not the rule. The Major offenders have always been the ones that have been lingering for far too long, rather than all the new one's that are produced. Seeing as GTS has had it's own issues it's possible that it's not just an outsourcing issue - either way, it'll all depend on the standard they set themselves for the company they choose to use for outsourcing.

 

[05XR8]

The car models have come so far since Atari 2600. I mean, if the casual player spends enough time, I'm sure they can pick out things that aren't quite right. However, the casual player won't notice any flaws. They'll enjoy driving cars that look and feel as realistic as can be in a virtual world.

If someone checks any one car model made in its domestic market and one "outsourced" in a different factory, there may be differences in quality. Anyway, no need to fret. We're not getting PS2 quality cars ever again. Relax.

 

[ImaRobot]

The car models have some so far since Atari 2600. I m an, if the casual player spends enough time, I'm sure they can pick out things that aren't quite right. However, the casual player won't notice any flaws. They'll enjoy driving cars that look and feel as realistic as can be in a virtual world.

If someone checks any one car model made in its domestic market and one "outsourced" in a different factory, there may be differences in quality. Anyway, no need to fret. We're Wet getting PS2 quality cars ever again. Relax.

If anything, I'm wondering if the differences people are finding boil down to things like shaders and lighting. In comparison to PD, T10 aren't on that same level of quality being put into that department. Even without that, both games are producing great models, but neither are excused from their own issues.

 

[05XR8]

If anything, I'm wondering if the differences people are finding boil down to things like shaders and lighting. In comparison to PD, T10 aren't on that same level of quality being put into that department. Even without that, both games are producing great models, but neither are excused from their own issues.

I'm not against people noticing differences. Its as when Drive Club came out. A game I've never played. Some said the cars look good and the rain graphics are better than what PD have given us. That's fine.

However, thinking that since the cars are outsourced and really, noone had complained about the S660 or Tundra, all of a sudden there's a big march for equal rights...err, deatailing for car models. We saw in the demo how the reflections have improved on the RX-VISION bonnet.

If anything, I can't wait to read more about how people are upset with trees, than why does the Lancer have floor mats and the 458 doesn't.

 

[PSN:And-War]

Why would you automatically lose quality? Do you believe only PD employees can model quality cars?

Let's wait and see, but forza models don't look great they look good.

 

[ImaRobot]

Let's wait and see, but forza models don't look great they look good.

I'm sure if I ask you to put forward at least one example of an outsourced car from Forza that looks bad, you wouldn't have one available. I'm also willing to bet if we had the CAD models available in front of us with no shaders or lighting, anyone would have a hard time telling which is which. It seems like this is said with not to much knowledge on what they actually look like, and people are associating it as an outsourcing issue when it's likely one of the hot items in Forza that have been in the game, wrong, for over a decade - before all the outsourcing.

That's not to say that an issue like that wont pop it's head in, but for over 800 vehicles, the issue is actually a lot rarer than people are making it seem.

 

[Samus]

Let's wait and see, but forza models don't look great they look good.

Examples? You're probably going by the less realistic lighting engine which makes the models look less realistic, not the models themselves. If you put most of the Forza models into GT lighting engine and scapes I bet you'd see a big difference.

Also if the difference between PD and other modellers is so obvious you should have no trouble telling us the entire list of outsourced cars in GTS, because it is certainly more than the dozen or so we've had confirmed.

 

[Tornado]

Man I was all set and ready to say "WOE IS US NOW PD CARS WILL ALL LOOK LIKE THE FORZA IMPREZA" but I see people are saying pretty much exactly that as if it was true. Oh well.









And since I by and large didn't bother paying attention to GT Sport since it was a game I wasn't interested in on a system I didn't own, but did PD abandon adaptive tessellation after all the hooplah about how important it was to the future of the series after GT6? Some of this discussion seems weird if that's still in the series.

I did not believe that when he said it.
These days its all about 3d scan.

PD have mentioned that they've gotten actual CAD reference materials used for manufacturing from the car makers; and they are on such a level of detail that they are essentially useless beyond being a better reference for when PD makes their own models than photographs. I'm sure 3D scanning is the same way.

 

[ArR29]

This thread will probably turn into an old boring GT vs Forza. Why even bother? Don't take the bait. Pretty much the same people baiting people for comparison. Why?

 

[TheAdmiester]

Here is a shot of Forza 7 and a shot of Driveclub, which, without context, look completely unrelated.

However they have something in common. Both cars were modelled by GlassEgg, a popular outsourcing studio for 3D vehicle assets. Both games (besides Forza's lingering 6th-gen models) are known for their model accuracy. I haven't seen a single instance of someone singling out Forza's 919 or Driveclub's CX-75 as bad quality - do you see what I'm getting at here?

Additionally, I sincerely doubt anybody would've noticed any difference in quality between GTS' 993 Carrera and TRD Tundra and PD's in-house models. The point I'm trying to make here is that we need to end the automatic judgement of "outsourcing = bad". The contracting devs still have control over the final product and the outsourcing studio will without a doubt always be given a spec that they must fit (poly budgets for each LOD level, key areas most likely to be seen by players, and even potential corrections from the manufacturers). Any discrepancies between games isn't automatically down to outsourcing vs in-house but rather the differences in tolerances between development studios and their licencing agreements.

 

[BrunusCL82]

Finally.

 

[ruestchiva]

I have a doubt: So, you know how cars are first built digitally by manufacturers. Is there a way to license the car with all the digital design coming from the manufacturer? I understand that formats and many things would be different but it could be an easier way to add more cars if some part of the job is already done. Or is this complete non-sense?

 

[ImaRobot]

This thread will probably turn into an old boring GT vs Forza. Why even bother? Don't take the bait. Pretty much the same people baiting people for comparison. Why?

bringing in references from games that outsource is a perfect way to show examples of why what people have issues with out-sourcing is likely going to be unfounded. It's not even about other games vs other games, it's about trying to put to rest that outsourcing is supposedly the devils work.

That you're incapable to make that distinction, while simultaneously adding nothing to contribute to the actual relevance to the thread is not anyone else's issue.

 

[Dave A]

I have a doubt: So, you know how cars are first built digitally by manufacturers. Is there a way to license the car with all the digital design coming from the manufacturer? I understand that formats and many things would be different but it could be an easier way to add more cars if some part of the job is already done. Or is this complete non-sense?

No, PD already have acess to the manufacturers CAD data and it's so highly detailed it's only useful as reference material and they cannot be rendered in real time.

You can see how long it takes to render highly complex and detailed 3d work takes yourself by downloading a blender benchmark or similar and see how long it takes your PC to renber the downloaded mesh.

It's not easy to take a model that detailed and scale it down, it takes less time to make your own model that is the right level of complexity in the first place.

 

[Castrol96]

It can take week to model a car in Alias but if you're working with Maya / Blender it can take pretty long.

Modelling a detailed car is tricky personally, been doing it for 5 years. Takes time managing where and how the vertices will be for positioned for a clean surface and to work with subdivision. It can become a mess if its not planned right.

 

[ScottPuss20]

We never jumped to the conclusion that the S660, 911 Carrera CS and the Tundra were outsourced when they were added to the game. Doesn't that put the "outsourcing = bad" mantra to bed? If we were never told about the outsourcing, we'd think that PD created the models.

 

[Silver Arrows]

bringing in references from games that outsource is a perfect way to show examples of why what people have issues with out-sourcing is likely going to be unfounded. It's not even about other games vs other games, it's about trying to put to rest that outsourcing is supposedly the devils work.

That you're incapable to make that distinction, while simultaneously adding nothing to contribute to the actual relevance to the thread is not anyone else's issue.

In a sense, he's right. For years it was obvious that GT fans that were looking to start **** circlejerked themselves silly about how everything was done in house at PD. They liked to post the 6th gen outlier models in Forza's case, and made it so that that all models in Forza were cut from the same cloth as if Polyphony wasn't stacking their car list for years with up-rez'ed PS2 models in order to inflate the car list. Now that the tables are now even again, apparently outsourcing is fine, which is a complete one eighty from the opinions held by some on this forum, but some people didn't want to listen to that. You see that in a couple of people bleating on about that 'argument' that outsourcing will lead to bad things like the lost cause argument that it is in this very thread, but now apparently Project CARS and Driveclub are being thrown under the bus (further proving my belief that to some of the hard core GT fans on this forum, and you know who you are, the success of Driveclub when Polyphony was trying to reinvent the wheel with little gains that ultimately pissed off a good chunk of the fanbase rankles them to their very core) even though both games listed are using firmly established 3D car modeling software that brings results, and aren't wasting their time modeling the fibers and fabrics of the seat in a car model like Polyphony has been doing for years, often times only serving as fuel for these pissing matches.

So yeah, of course this thread would turn into another GT vs. Forza slap fight. That's been the entire MO for some people on this forum since 2005. The battlelines might change, but it's all the same. The people may change, but it's still tribalism. The fact that Polyphony themselves are outsourcing car modeling, and often times have final say in what comes through, should be enough to end this argument dead. But some people still want to poke (or rather, beat) this dead horse that Forza (and apparently, Driveclub AND Project CARS) have crap car models rather then, like GT does, has some outlying models that need to be replaced yes, but do not make up the vast majority of the cars in any Forza game, Motorsport or Horizon, by any margin that isn't a handful.

And like you said, most people aren't bringing up any examples about how supposedly 'bad' Forza's (or especially Project CARS or Driveclub) modeling is. Hell, the only one to show *any* evidence was Admiester, and that was putting this entire argument to bed like it needed to the minute we learned the S660 was outsourced in GT Sport.

 

[ArR29]

bringing in references from games that outsource is a perfect way to show examples of why what people have issues with out-sourcing is likely going to be unfounded. It's not even about other games vs other games, it's about trying to put to rest that outsourcing is supposedly the devils work.

That you're incapable to make that distinction, while simultaneously adding nothing to contribute to the actual relevance to the thread is not anyone else's issue.

C'mon now, we all know that's how it's gonna end up if you let it continue. Endless argument of which one is the best is so tiring at this point.