Gran Turismo Physics(Poll)

[super_gt]

A drift car ?

No
My car is little more tail happy at the corner exit then the real one because it has 94 horsepower more(335 BHP is too little for me )
Decrease the power and you will get car behavior very close to this:

That's your opinion.

It's the way some of the "sim features" in Pcars seem to be programmed that seems to be the problem. For example, you seem to be able to crash your car fairly heavily one time without suffering any performance issues, but a few much lighter wall hits and your car is undrivable. Pcars has car damage, but seems to be programmed very poorly. Same with engine failures. I had a mid engine race car that I increased boost on and it blew the engine on the 3rd lap. I restarted and drove much more conservatively (part throttle and shift in mid RPM) and it still blew up with the same amount of laps. So I tried to blow the engine on first lap by carving up but couldn't. It's like engine failures are defined by engine boost and distance. It feels like there is this "one line of code approach" right through the game that spoils it for me.

Project CARS vs GT6 is here

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

No
My car is little more tail happy at the corner exit then the real one because it has 94 horsepower more(335 BHP is too little for me )
Decrease the power and you will get car behavior very close to this:




Project CARS vs GT6 is here

I tried stock power before going over 400HP. I have seen many 1M videos and reviews, and on CS, my replica already good enough. Increasing more front tire grip using sports tire is overkill IMO.

 

[Kurei]

There is no 'tire model' in GT, just a 'grip multiplier' which correlates to what tires you equip, tires which can 'boost' a cars handling performance well beyond what the chassis and/or drivetrain could normally cope with.

How can you have proper physics simulation with such a basic tire-factor influencing the relation between car & track ?

Knowing this from the days of GT5-Hybrids, along with the experience of never having the 'grip run-out' in GT (PC-sim players should understand this), my opinion is that GT falls to the simcade side of the scale. Yes you may lose grip if you over-turn the wheel into a corner, but still having minor control of the car, while sliding through grass towards a wall, thanks to a pre-programmed 'grip multiplier' just doesn't come across as realistic physics for me. (I could link to videos of cars sliding through grass like it was ice, but just can't be bothered atm)

And Yes, you can change the tires and aim to get closer to the realistic cornering performance of a vehicle within the games physics, just like you can unplug your system from the internet and 'enjoy' the COD ModernWarfare solo-campaign with the right mentality, but it doesn't change the fact that the underlying physics aren't full-simulation.

/end rant, just my 2 cents

 

[Johnnypenso]

That's your opinion.

It's the way some of the "sim features" in Pcars seem to be programmed that seems to be the problem. For example, you seem to be able to crash your car fairly heavily one time without suffering any performance issues, but a few much lighter wall hits and your car is undrivable. Pcars has car damage, but seems to be programmed very poorly. Same with engine failures. I had a mid engine race car that I increased boost on and it blew the engine on the 3rd lap. I restarted and drove much more conservatively (part throttle and shift in mid RPM) and it still blew up with the same amount of laps. So I tried to blow the engine on first lap by carving up but couldn't. It's like engine failures are defined by engine boost and distance. It feels like there is this "one line of code approach" right through the game that spoils it for me.

So GT has no engine damage model at all and you drove on car in PCars that has one aspect of engine damage potentially flawed so the entire game of GT is better because of a single flaw in PCars in a feature that doesn't exist in GT?

 

[super_gt]

I tried stock power before going over 400HP. I have seen many 1M videos and reviews, and on CS, my replica already good enough. Increasing more front tire grip using sports tire is overkill IMO.

Ridox I made test with your setup and here is the result:

My lap with Ridox BMW E82 1M Coupe Replica 135i Coupe version
Time 8:08.387
All AIDS and ABS OFF
Steering wheel Logitech Driving Force GT with DIY Brake pedal mod

My lap with my setup
Time 7:34.055
All AIDS and ABS OFF

Lap times of the both setups can not be compared because my car is more powerful and I use sports tires.
But the car behavior can be compared.
The good news is that your setup feels realistic when I drive normal(not on the limit)
The bad news is when I reach the limit your car starts to feel as a toy.
For example:
I can brake till mid corner in(with brake balance front 4 rear 5):Flugplatz,Schwedenkreuz,Fuchsrohre(the left corner right after the uphill)car remains stable in the first two cornes, there is little oversteer in Fuchsrohre but it is easy to correct.
In real world braking till mid corner in these corners would lead to a unavoidable crash.
Also the real cars suffer from lift off oversteer in Schwedenkreuz and as a whole at the Nordschleife,but the lift off oversteer in your car is a mirage(zero)



Final thoughts
Your real world data is probably absolutely correct but you can not Copy and Paste in GT6 and expect cars to be exactly as in real world.
Yes your setup is much better then the stock setup.

 

[VBR]

I just realised that this poll is not adequate enough regarding GT6, let me explain.


When Skid Recovery Force is forced on, GT definitely becomes Simcade. When it's not forced on, & we can choose what driving aids we want, we can set it up to be a simulation.

GT6 License Tests = Simcade.

Goodwood Special Events = Simcade.

My online lobbies = Simulation!


I think GT was a simulator, simply because they used to try to simulate reality. Whether they did it as accurately or as detailed for some peoples liking is neither here nor there, the fact that that is what they were aiming for is the important thing. However, as soon as they started forcing on an unrealistic driving aid like SRF, that's the point GT stopped being a proper simulator & started becoming a semi Simcade game.

 

[FerrariF1GT]

I think GT's physics are simcade but it doesn't matter to me if it's sim or not.

 

[nocturnalgrey]

In my opinion, Gran Turismo only needs to do two things to be perfect in my eyes.

1 - It pains me to admit it, but I am afraid it all begins with the Standard cars. Get rid of them and I believe if and when that happens we will see full damage system across all vehicles not only from a mechanical standpoint but from an individual body panel and vehicle frame one.

2 - Give us a complete and accurate tire model that allows me to adjust the tire pressure. I would imagine that many people wouldn't/don't even care about this feature but it should be available to the users. After all, tire pressure while a small part of the equation, it makes up one piece of the tuning puzzle.

 

[Pseudopod]

Spoiler

If there's anything the Cell would *not* be bad at, it is physics calculations. I'm sure PS4 will allow for better physics, because it does have a much newer and better CPU, but "pound-for-pound", compared to its competitor in the previous gen (xb360), the PS3 performs very well at tasks similar to physics simulation.

GT6 is attempting to simulate reality, that makes it a simulator. It is not a perfect sim, but no game is. There are also better sim games, but not on PS3, which could indicate that it's not easy to get a lot more accurate physics on PS3 than what GT6 offers. There are some elements in the game that makes it less serious as a racing game, but this isn't part of the physics model, but rather a series of dumb game design choices put on top of them. This includes no easy way to practice with tire wear and fuel consumption, poor vehicle selections for other AI drivers, rubberband AI, and so on.

Sorry to quote myself and bump the thread. Just wanted to say something I've had on my mind for some time that I didn't mention earlier.

What is limiting the PS3's ability to simulate racing games as well as much older PC games might not just have to do with the CPU anyway. A significant limitation of the PS3 is the system RAM. It has 512MB in total and 256 of those is reserved for the GPU. Compare this to the amount of system RAM of PCs from 2005, and you'll see that it is less than 1/4th of what was common for even a mid-tier gaming PCs back then.

I would imagine that this has a pretty direct effect on how many things you can make your physics engine keep track of. It might have to omitt some features simply because there was no space for the data needed to calculate it in RAM.

With that in mind, I don't think we have to worry about the physics for GT7. With 5 GB usable by games, it's at the level of what new PC games actually use today anyway. New games today rarely use more than 2-3GB for the core game, and 2-3 GB used for graphics if they have very high graphical fidetly. Considering the PS4 GPU is weaker, they probably won't need to use more than 2 GB for the graphics, leaving 3GB for the core features of the game.

 

[sk8er913]

Sorry to quote myself and bump the thread. Just wanted to say something I've had on my mind for some time that I didn't mention earlier.

What is limiting the PS3's ability to simulate racing games as well as much older PC games might not just have to do with the CPU anyway. A significant limitation of the PS3 is the system RAM. It has 512MB in total and 256 of those is reserved for the GPU. Compare this to the amount of system RAM of PCs from 2005, and you'll see that it is less than 1/4th of what was common for even a mid-tier gaming PCs back then.

I would imagine that this has a pretty direct effect on how many things you can make your physics engine keep track of. It might have to omitt some features simply because there was no space for the data needed to calculate it in RAM.

With that in mind, I don't think we have to worry about the physics for GT7. With 5 GB usable by games, it's at the level of what new PC games actually use today anyway. New games today rarely use more than 2-3GB for the core game, and 2-3 GB used for graphics if they have very high graphical fidetly. Considering the PS4 GPU is weaker, they probably won't need to use more than 2 GB for the graphics, leaving 3GB for the core features of the game.

I have a computer from 1999 that has twice the ram as the PS3.

 

[sk8er913]

I mean seriously. Why only 256 MB of RAM in the PS3 It would've cost them like 10 dollars per machine to make it 768 MB. (-_-) Then they could've just increased the price 25$ and everything would be solved RAM IS CHEAP!

 

[Pseudopod]

Because they were already losing money on the machine. Another 25 dollars here, another 25 dollars there, multiply that with all units sold over the first few years and you get quite a few million dollars of extra loss.

The RAM not being unified was probably a bigger problem.

 

[Voodoovaj]

In my opinion, Gran Turismo only needs to do two things to be perfect in my eyes.

1 - It pains me to admit it, but I am afraid it all begins with the Standard cars. Get rid of them and I believe if and when that happens we will see full damage system across all vehicles not only from a mechanical standpoint but from an individual body panel and vehicle frame one.

2 - Give us a complete and accurate tire model that allows me to adjust the tire pressure. I would imagine that many people wouldn't/don't even care about this feature but it should be available to the users. After all, tire pressure while a small part of the equation, it makes up one piece of the tuning puzzle.

I don't know what the big deal about tire pressure is. You know how often I adjusted tire pressure in real life? Never. the Pirelli rep told me what pressure to run and I ran it. You know what pressure I ran in my Michellins? The pressure the Michellin rep told me to run.

Personally, it seems like the "tire model" that we were promised prior to release never made it into the game. I can't even find the video that showed it. Maybe I remember it wrong. I could swear they showed the tires deforming, although it definitely isn't a game feature.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I just realised that this poll is not adequate enough regarding GT6, let me explain.


When Skid Recovery Force is forced on, GT definitely becomes Simcade. When it's not forced on, & we can choose what driving aids we want, we can set it up to be a simulation.

GT6 License Tests = Simcade.

Goodwood Special Events = Simcade.

My online lobbies = Simulation!


I think GT was a simulator, simply because they used to try to simulate reality. Whether they did it as accurately or as detailed for some peoples liking is neither here nor there, the fact that that is what they were aiming for is the important thing. However, as soon as they started forcing on an unrealistic driving aid like SRF, that's the point GT stopped being a proper simulator & started becoming a semi Simcade game.

Thankfully, I am seeing more CS and SH lobbies out there. 500pp on CS is a fun experience. Still way too many people on RS tires though.

 

[VBR]

Thankfully, I am seeing more CS and SH lobbies out there. 500pp on CS is a fun experience. Still way too many people on RS tires though.

All my lobbies were Tuning Prohobited & used CH through to SH, usually 350 to 550PP (tyres changed every 50PP). I miss the online racing in GT6!

 

[Voodoovaj]

All my lobbies were Tuning Prohobited & used CH through to SH, usually 350 to 550PP (tyres changed every 50PP). I miss the online racing in GT6!

Tuning prohibited eliminates a MASSIVE portion of the game. What I would prefer to see if more control over the server filters. They all or nothing approach is just asinine. It might take more time to set up, but since you can save the room settings, who cares?

Give me the ability to turn off certain modifications. For instance, only allow stage 1 or stage 2 weight reduction. As it stands, does anyone ever use stage 1 or stage 2?

How about the manufacturers? Why can I only select 1 country and five manufacturers? It's obviously just an xml file, so allow users to turn off what they prefer.

 

[super_gt]

Guys please this is off topic.

 

[ugotnothin]

This


Plus this

http://vid1128.photobucket.com/albums/m490/littlelearners101/MOV_00171_zpszq08gvwo.mp4

Surely equals a fail... In anyone's book.

And that's just driving in a straight line

 

[Lain]

No matter how you slice it, GT is simulation. It may not be the best simulation, and you can complain all you want about the tyre model, the SRF or other driving aids, or the fact that some of the more over-the-top VGTs can break the physics model... but calling GT "simcade" is a fundamental misunderstanding of what "simcade" is supposed to mean.

Simcade games are arcade games with physics models that are loosely based in realism. These games use realistic physics principles as a base to make the driving have a more satisfying feel than, say, sliding around in Mario Kart or autodrifting around every corner in NFS with your handbrake, but they're not aiming for deep realism in the driving physics. You might have to actually brake to make a turn on occasion in these types of games, but they're greatly more forgiving than an actual sim due to the simplicity of the physics model. The main simcade game that comes to mind for me is Project Gotham Racing.

Simcade is not an insult you hurl at a simulation whose physics you don't think are up to snuff.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Guys please this is off topic.

OK, back on topic

No matter how you slice it, GT is simulation. It may not be the best simulation, and you can complain all you want about the tyre model, the SRF or other driving aids, or the fact that some of the more over-the-top VGTs can break the physics model... but calling GT "simcade" is a fundamental misunderstanding of what "simcade" is supposed to mean.

Simcade games are arcade games with physics models that are loosely based in realism. These games use realistic physics principles as a base to make the driving have a more satisfying feel than, say, sliding around in Mario Kart or autodrifting around every corner in NFS with your handbrake, but they're not aiming for deep realism in the driving physics. You might have to actually brake to make a turn on occasion in these types of games, but they're greatly more forgiving than an actual sim due to the simplicity of the physics model. The main simcade game that comes to mind for me is Project Gotham Racing.

Simcade is not an insult you hurl at a simulation whose physics you don't think are up to snuff.

Based on this point of view, then GT6 is DEFINITELY simcade.

300 hp cars behave like a 600-700hp real world equivalent. The grip levels are unobtainable in the real world. 450hp road cars FAR exceed the performance of state of the art real world race cars.

I got a 400pp 2000GT to 270kph - that should have taken 300+ horsepower.

Generally speaking, it seems that all the cars are behaving like their horsepower has been doubled.

Let's use the 24 Nurb as benchmark. A GT3 car should do less than 8:30 on full slicks. That's an average 575pp time on SS tires. A 550pp RX7 and RX8 can beat 8:30 on SS tires.

Man, those GT3 guys are wasting TONS of money building race cars when all they need to do is buy a used RX7.

GT6 is TOO GRIPPY and, especially, TOO FAST! It's also way too inconsistent from car to car.

I would agree with option 4, that it's sim but the sim could be better, if the sim were even CLOSE to being in the ball park. GT5 was closer to a sim.

This leaves no other option but #2 - It is a simcade. I'm even easy to please. I DON'T want a hyper realistic simulator...I just want what I was promised. A simulator.

They've differentiated the tires so much that tire strategy is completely pointless. They've created massive imbalances to the point where racing without strict limitation is an exercise in frustration. In general, They've phoned this game in and I will NOT be rushing to by GT7 when it's released. I'll wait to see what calamity they've created with that first.

 

[Rotorist]

Tuned RX7s in Tsukuba beat all the road cars Porsche's ever produced. Minus the 918 since it hasn't been rested there. And a 300HP lightly RX8 did the same time to R35 GTR there just by using semi-slicks. Rotery engine offers race-car handling due to low center of gravity and 50:50 balance of weight.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Tuned RX7s in Tsukuba beat all the road cars Porsche's ever produced. Minus the 918 since it hasn't been rested there. And a 300HP lightly RX8 did the same time to R35 GTR there just by using semi-slicks. Rotery engine offers race-car handling due to low center of gravity and 50:50 balance of weight.

You missed the point entirely. Cars in the game in tuned street configuration are as fast as full blown, purpose built, race cars, in real life and on full slicks. They are too grippy and their top speed is way too high.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Tuned RX7s in Tsukuba beat all the road cars Porsche's ever produced. Minus the 918 since it hasn't been rested there. And a 300HP lightly RX8 did the same time to R35 GTR there just by using semi-slicks. Rotery engine offers race-car handling due to low center of gravity and 50:50 balance of weight.

You're kidding right?

Re-read your statement - "Tuned RX7" beat Porsche - I am assuming not tuned Porsche. "Lightly (tuned?) Rx8" vs Stock GT-R. How about tuned versus tuned? Because that's what we see in the game. And even at that, did you forget there is supposed to be a system that negates any advantage? The PP System is supposed to bring cars in check, but instead, it's been perverted.

A "lightly tuned" smart car can beat a Ferrari. Drop a 1300cc 200hp Hyabusa inline 4 into any small car and watch it scream, but what does that say about the laptimes in the game versus their real life counterparts? Or are you actually suggesting that the entire GT3 category is oblivious to the fact that they can go to their local used car dealer, pick up an Rx7 or Rx8, "Lightly tune them" and completely dominate FIA GT3?

If I had known this when they were brand new, I SO would have gone racing and won world championships!

 

[Voodoovaj]

The problem is even worse than just some folks wanting to see more realism, it goes much deeper to the core of the franchise.

By catering to ham-fisted arcade players that want lightspeed and magnetic grip, the game loses the element that made it successful. The best games in the world adhere to "Easy to learn, hard to master". It's an aspect that compels people to keep coming back.

It's easy to hop into a Dino and easy to win a race with it. That's counter productive to the franchise.

The best races I've had in this game have been with slower cars on harder tires. So by speeding everything up and making it stickier, they've made a worse game.

 

[Rotorist]

You missed the point entirely. Cars in the game in tuned street configuration are as fast as full blown, purpose built, race cars, in real life and on full slicks. They are too grippy and their top speed is way too high.

Replied about rotary-powered ones as facts in real life prove that what Voodoovaj posted to prove a flaw in physics is just a plus to GT6 realism. You speak in general and I don't fully agree to your words either. Top speed problem is a drag calculation problem indeed which is hurting laptimes in big tracks for sure. In Tsukuba though, grip in GT6 is proven totally in accordance to real life if you put the correct tires on and drive as in real life without too much risk. Just a few cars are over 1" off their true laptimes therea and mainly the ones who were expensive and driver was too cautious (McLaren F1 and Gallardo LP560-4 for example).

 

[Johnnypenso]

Replied about rotary-powered ones as facts in real life prove that what Voodoovaj posted to prove a flaw in physics is just a plus to GT6 realism. You speak in general and I don't fully agree to your words either. Top speed problem is a drag calculation problem indeed which is hurting laptimes in big tracks for sure. In Tsukuba though, grip in GT6 is proven totally in accordance to real life if you put the correct tires on and drive as in real life without too much risk. Just a few cars are over 1" off their true laptimes therea and mainly the ones who were expensive and driver was too cautious (McLaren F1 and Gallardo LP560-4 for example).

How is it a plus to realism when a 550pp car with no downforce on supposed street tires laps a well known circuit in the game at the same lap time as a full blown race car?

 

[Rotorist]

How is it a plus to realism when a 550pp car with no downforce on supposed street tires laps a well known circuit in the game at the same lap time as a full blown race car?

Do I need to say again about the top speed bug in GT6 which changes muchly the laptimes in big tracks in favour of non-racing cars in GT6? Green hell is the worst of all in this aspect. Miles of parts of it going full on gas is deducting many seconds of what a realistic laptime should be. That's why I talked about Tsukuba in my previous post, something you didn't pay attention. Because there, only grip matters. And you talked about problems in grip levels in GT6 which is proven totally wrong in Tsukuba.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Do I need to say again about the top speed bug in GT6 which changes muchly the laptimes in big tracks in favour of non-racing cars in GT6? Green hell is the worst of all in this aspect. Miles of parts of it going full on gas is deducting many seconds of what a realistic laptime should be. That's why I talked about Tsukuba in my previous post, something you didn't pay attention. Because there, only grip matters. And you talked about problems in grip levels in GT6 which is proven totally wrong in Tsukuba.

Are you even playing the same game?

A track with a 1 minute laptime will obviously minimize the issues in the game. That said here's the laptimes.

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/tsukuba.html

I can get under 1 minute on sport tires at 450pp (less than 300hp) and a street car (about 1100kg)

Here's the record http://www.worldtimeattack.com/index.php/suzuki-fastest-at-tsukuba/ 52.649. That car sure doesn't look like your average street car to me, but I bet I could smash that record with a streetcar, reasonable horsepower, and sport tire...no downforce. In fact, I will give it a try and post the results.

That's not much to ask. To need to have a car be all in can be in order to be fast. GT cars don't need to be much at all to be fast.

 

[Rotorist]

Are you even playing the same game?

A track with a 1 minute laptime will obviously minimize the issues in the game. That said here's the laptimes.

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/tsukuba.html

I can get under 1 minute on sport tires at 450pp (less than 300hp) and a street car (about 1100kg)

Here's the record http://www.worldtimeattack.com/index.php/suzuki-fastest-at-tsukuba/ 52.649. That car sure doesn't look like your average street car to me, but I bet I could smash that record with a streetcar, reasonable horsepower, and sport tire...no downforce. In fact, I will give it a try and post the results.

That's not much to ask. To need to have a car be all in can be in order to be fast. GT cars don't need to be much at all to be fast.

Your irony is humoristic so I don't have any problem with that.

Truth is that you didn't read my last post carefully. And in most cases (90% of the cars tested) laptimes' difference in Tsukuba from GT6 to RL is a few tenths (2-4) when driving without taking much risk.

 

[Tenacious D]

They've created massive imbalances to the point where racing without strict limitation is an exercise in frustration.

Apparently, people seem to have no problem hosting all kinds of racing series in GT6, whether with race cars or tuners. I suppose the most finicky of racers will have fits over any number of issues in GT6, but after more than a year and a half of GT6 being on the market, those guys seem to be in the minority.

I know that people have gripes with all kinds of things in GT6. On user managed leaderboards floating around GT Planet, there are some crazy fast times, and some will use this as a basis to argue that the game is utter rubbish or that it only halfway resembles reality. Strangely enough, I have yet to be on a forum in which everyone is happy with any racing game. Some are calling Project CARS, Assetto Corsa and RaceRoom simcade, so sim fiends seem to be a tough crowd to please.

Just to see what I could do, I took my own RX7 loaded with racing parts, weight reduced and tuned to 551PP on SS tires, and on the Nurburgring 24Hr course pulled out a 9:19.336. After three weekends of racing in RaceRoom, GT6 feels safe and calm and well planted, as I have said before. It's so much nicer and sedate than RR, and the tracks are flatter. The sims are definitely good for honing the skill of attacking turns well. However, this doesn't make it possible for me to pull off laps with insane times. Or most people. The kids with space alien skills who can figure out how to abuse and take advantage of any game are few and far between. The rest of us simple humans who do laps in Gran Turismo have times which resemble the real world more closely. You still have to drive a car like a car, and Time Trials are unforgiving. While GT6 isn't perfect, we somehow manage to find something realistic and satisfying in the game, and we enjoy edging closer to those real world lap times in a car we own or covet.

Some will say that if you can't achieve those warp speed lap times that you're a bad racer. Well, in some cases that is likely true. But when I compare my lap times to those of the GT Planet WRS, I'm in line with those in the second tier. In RaceRoom, I've done 64 some odd time trials and on the leaderboards, my average place is 4th. I've bested a professional race car driver. I think I'm a pretty okay racer.

But I agree with everyone who wants GT7 to be a sublime simulation racing experience. Making it as realistic as the average racing sim, something in the realm of P CARS, RaceRoom and Assetto Corsa shouldn't cause any more problems with the usual gamer than GT5 and 6 have. For those who would struggle with it, there are assists. I would think that most people would be happy with a GT7 which has a strong family resemblance to P CARS or RaceRoom. While I can only claim experience in RR and AC, those games do provide quite a satisfying, downright exciting run, and I'm hoping that Kaz and those in the team with on-track experience will do everything they can to instill that in the game. And yes, absolutely yes, make the bots fast, close and competitive so that we don't have to go online or cheat like I do with a weaker car to enjoy a race.

One more thing. If you can't enjoy running any kind of performance car with Comfort tires around a track in GT6, especially The Green Hell, you seem to me to be stubbornly hard to please.