Gran Turismo Sophy: Sony AI x Polyphony Digital

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If you watched the team behind GT Sophy videos, they actually did show Sophy running on PS4s. That was how it was trained in the first place, so it has always been able to run on PS4.
Well, there is a retweet about Sophy being developed since 2016. That would be running on PS4. The problem is, will it run on its own? Meaning, the way Sophy runs now, it needs so much computing power that’s just no doable at the moment. As pointed out how Sophy may run, we won’t see it like the videos in this thread. It’ll be more as a learning/helping tool, than an outright competitor.
 
Well, there is a retweet about Sophy being developed since 2016. That would be running on PS4. The problem is, will it run on its own? Meaning, the way Sophy runs now, it needs so much computing power that’s just no doable at the moment. As pointed out how Sophy may run, we won’t see it like the videos in this thread. It’ll be more as a learning/helping tool, than an outright competitor.
I think you are misunderstanding how neural networks work. The first part of it is training, which is what requires huge amounts of resources. What does it mean to do this training? It means running the Sophy agent on a computer connected to a console and then feeding those results back into the agent so it constantly improves its decisions with whatever heuristics it is making decisions based on. They talk about going from 4 playstations to hundreds or thousands of playstations in the cloud to do training of the network. That is the part that is not doable on your home console, simply because training a neural network requires hundreds of thousands of runs, which would take way too long to do on a single machine. Once the model is trained, they are straightforward to run - Sophy only makes 10 decisions per second, which is not very much at all. You can imagine that Sophy probably needs to be trained on a per track basis (so multiply those hundred of thousands of training runs by number of tracks), but that depends a lot on how they designed the network in the first place.
 
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Well, there is a retweet about Sophy being developed since 2016. That would be running on PS4. The problem is, will it run on its own? Meaning, the way Sophy runs now, it needs so much computing power that’s just no doable at the moment. As pointed out how Sophy may run, we won’t see it like the videos in this thread. It’ll be more as a learning/helping tool, than an outright competitor.
From what I understand, it won't learn anything near the rate it currnetly does (if at all) running on my PS4, but it should be able to run fine as an AI in a non-learning or low learning configuration. The raw computing power required during testing and development is primarily for testing and development.
 
The Sophy client in the game will not be a machine-learning AI, but will be a machine-educated one; it's not doing any further learning, and won't need the processing power of 40,000 PS4s/PS5s in parallel.
 
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The Sophy client in the game will not be a machine-learning AI, but will be a maching-educated one; it's not doing any further learning, and won't need the processing power of 40,000 PS4s/PS5s in parallel.
...question is when, and if it'll come to GT7 at all
 
There was no "promise". It was a chat message almost certainly posted by someone at Sony Italy with only a bit of vague information or even just guessing.

Besides, even if it does arrive, it's just going to be a set of missions. If you're hoping for Sophy to revolutionise the entire AI throughout the game, you're going to be in for a disappointment I'm afraid. GT8 at the earliest for that.
So how our WT players were able to face this AI in a real race despite it being offline

Forget that, I want to know when Gran Turismo 8 is coming?!
2026 on Ps6

If you watched the team behind GT Sophy videos, they actually did show Sophy running on PS4s. That was how it was trained in the first place, so it has always been able to run on PS4.

We had to do this type of AI in the direct game as we see on other games. Running Sophy AI with the Ps4 is a dubious choice for me
 
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So how our WT players were able to face this AI in a real race despite it being offline
This question makes no sense. The World Tour event in Austria was LAN, using a dedicated game build, with dozens of high-performance PC servers to manage it. It wasn't an "offline" event using the public build of GT7 and 12 consoles connected to each other.

Sony AI brought along a few versions of a finalised GT Sophy client for the race event. Same as it did when Race Together 1 was held at PD's head office.
 
I think you are misunderstanding how neural networks work. The first part of it is training, which is what requires huge amounts of resources. What does it mean to do this training? It means running the Sophy agent on a computer connected to a console and then feeding those results back into the agent so it constantly improves its decisions with whatever heuristics it is making decisions based on. They talk about going from 4 playstations to hundreds or thousands of playstations in the cloud to do training of the network. That is the part that is not doable on your home console, simply because training a neural network requires hundreds of thousands of runs, which would take way too long to do on a single machine. Once the model is trained, they are straightforward to run - Sophy only makes 10 decisions per second, which is not very much at all. You can imagine that Sophy probably needs to be trained on a per track basis (so multiply those hundred of thousands of training runs by number of tracks), but that depends a lot on how they designed the network in the first place.
Oh, there was no misunderstanding. When you mentioned the PS4 bit, it reminded me of a retweet about the development since 2016. I just added what was already discussed about how Sophy was developed and unless someone has seen it currently operating on PS5, we Can only know how it’ll run by what we’ve being told(as a companion, etc.).
Then, like you’re saying in the later half of your post and what Famine posted, I understand that. 👍
From what I understand, it won't learn anything near the rate it currnetly does (if at all) running on my PS4, but it should be able to run fine as an AI in a non-learning or low learning configuration. The raw computing power required during testing and development is primarily for testing and development.
 
So, where are we with Sophy and GT7? Do we know any further details about how it intends to role out, will we be able to populate 15-20 Sophy AI's and adjust their profiles accordingly to actually have a meaningful single player race?

Is it not possible for GT Planet to arrange an interview so that we can find this information out? Thanks! :)
 
So, where are we with Sophy and GT7? Do we know any further details about how it intends to role out, will we be able to populate 15-20 Sophy AI's and adjust their profiles accordingly to actually have a meaningful single player race?

We don't know yet.

Is it not possible for GT Planet to arrange an interview so that we can find this information out? Thanks!:)

Probably not.
 
will we be able to populate 15-20 Sophy AI's and adjust their profiles accordingly to actually have a meaningful single player race?
Pretty sure that is going to be a no. According to someone data mining the game Sophy is being implemented as a group of pre-defined missions. It is not coming to completely replace the current AI across the board.

Can't say for certain since not everything they're planning is going to be data minable but between that and the presentation slideshow describing it's planned implementation as a "friend" and "learning tool", it seems unlikely we're going to be getting any intense single player races against Sophy in GT7.
So, where are we with Sophy and GT7?
PD haven't broadly talked about it since they conveniently promoted it just before GT7 released. We've seen the odd video direct from Sony AI, but nothing on the progress or when it's coming direct from PD.
 
If you watched the team behind GT Sophy videos, they actually did show Sophy running on PS4s. That was how it was trained in the first place, so it has always been able to run on PS4.
No, it wasn't. The PS4 was running the Gran Turismo instance. The Sophy's were running on server hardware. If you read the paper that came out with the research it even tells you what it is. I've posted on this before in this thread.
It should do. It's currently running on completely separate hardware though,

View attachment 1112871

A V100 is a significant piece of hardware, and 8 CPUs and 55GB memory is substantial for the training hardware. In an environment where the agent is no longer being trained presumably that bit could be omitted and the rollout worker's compute node would handle "driving" the AI, but two CPUs and 3.3GB of RAM is still a fair bit compared to what modern consoles have available.

However, I'd assume that they've made next to no effort to optimise this. It's far easier in research to just throw extra hardware at the problem rather than waste time trying to optimise the agent. It's entirely possible that significant improvements can be made, but even so they'd have to be massive in order to get say, 10+ AI into a race. Still, even if they can't do it for PS5 that sort of hardware requirement is something that is potentially reasonable for hardware within the next 5-10 years (PS5Pro or PS6 maybe).

Based on the above, there's no way it seems like a PS4 could run a game like GTS and this agent. Let alone multiple copies of it. PS5 maybe if they optimise, simplify, and run a limited number of agents but it's hard to say.
If you've got evidence of Sophy actually running on PS4 rather than just giving commands to a PS4 that is running GTS/GT7 then please link it because I'd like to see it. But my understanding at this point is that they're still running the AI off server hardware and linking it into Playstations for the simulation environment.
So, where are we with Sophy and GT7? Do we know any further details about how it intends to role out, will we be able to populate 15-20 Sophy AI's and adjust their profiles accordingly to actually have a meaningful single player race?
We don't know, but given what we do know the bolded section is highly unlikely for GT7. Maybe GT8, but even then it's possible it would require more power than the PS5 has available to run that many instances of Sophy.
 
What do you mean ?
PD promised an extensive set of features and post-release support for GT6 that were in the end ultimately just lies to get people to buy a game that at launch was worse than the one they had spent two years building up from its own disastrous launch (alongside almost immediately announcing the server closure for that older, better game). For a couple of them Kaz went out of his way to specifically note they were going to come to the game as announced when people initially reacted with skepticism to the claims.





Sophy coming to GT7 wouldn't at all surprise me to be another one that is fobbed off as "we can't get it to run on PS4 and we have to do feature parity" or somesuch (and they'd hope you ignore that PD were the ones that put it on both platforms and PD were involved with mentioning it in relation to GT7 in the first place) after the infamous amount of "placeholders" from GT6 that were actually permanent.


But it's unclear whether chase-the-rabbit came about as a way to make best use of a poor AI system, or whether the AI was made intentionally poor because that's what's required to make chase-the-rabbit beatable. If Polyphony is really keen on keeping chase-the-rabbit as the main race format, then even if they're given the best AI in the world they'll still have to neuter it to keep their chosen gameplay style functional.
Chase the rabbit was originally a crutch to try and salvage GT5's framerate after launch. I suspect it just morphed into PD using it as a crutch so they don't actually have to put effort into designing a single player game; since GT5's AI, at least in comparison to GT6's and what I've seen of GTS', was fine.
 
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yh bros its time to admit that PD lied to us and gt7 is not going to be "fixed"
They are definitely going to be adding features they just develop at the speed of molasses and covid seemingly slowed them down even more.
 
Will we get a better single-player experience when sophy is in? Like no more rolling start from the back? Or even some challenging qualifyings against the ai? Kinda bored with the races right now..
 
It was said to only be some mission challenges and likely won't be implemented anywhere else.
So why they created Sophy AI to put it for just the mission challenges which we don't even know if it will be level and this mode is designed to be completed in front of the AI
 
So why they created Sophy AI to put it for just the mission challenges which we don't even know if it will be level and this mode is designed to be completed in front of the AI
Sophy was a project for Sony AI with Polyphony, not the other way around.
 
So why they created Sophy AI
So far it seems to be a technical exercise by Sony AI for use outside of gaming that also doubled as a way to promote GT7 and trick less knowledgeable people into thinking that was what the game would be. Instead they got the same old rubbish AI and catch the rabbit "racing".

Good old misleading marketing, it's 100% not a coincidence they decided to show this off just before GT7 released.
 
They'll probably drop the car count to 6 in a race to make room for Sophy's overheads. Maybe then we'd get a proper race again.
 
Why GT7 is the only racing game where the AI is picking up despite this opus focusing more on the single player mode ?
 
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It was only shown briefly during the livestream, but there was another Sophy vs Pros race at the World Finals


If the pros can’t beat her then I don’t want her in the game.

What I would like is a more aware AI pack to compete against. Not the current ones that will just drive right through you if you’re in the driving line they want or need. As well, it would be nice to not have chase the rabbit. It’s dumb, it promotes reckless driving imo. Project cars you could dial in the difficulty by percentage and actually have a decent grid start race. If they can do it, why can’t PD?

It’s frustrating enough to have to chase down the leader that’s got a 30-40 second lead on you during the first lap. Why would I want to race against an AI that will kick my butt? How frustrating are some of the circuit experiences to get gold on? I think that’s what this sophy will feel like racing against. Again, pushing your limits beyond what you’re capable of, just like when you’re desperately trying to chase down the leader only to pass them on the last turn or whenever you manage to catch them.

Sometimes this game, the AI is either way too easy or way to hard. Just give us a slider from easy to difficult so we can access everything in between lol
 
If the pros can’t beat her then I don’t want her in the game.

What I would like is a more aware AI pack to compete against. Not the current ones that will just drive right through you if you’re in the driving line they want or need. As well, it would be nice to not have chase the rabbit. It’s dumb, it promotes reckless driving imo. Project cars you could dial in the difficulty by percentage and actually have a decent grid start race. If they can do it, why can’t PD?

It’s frustrating enough to have to chase down the leader that’s got a 30-40 second lead on you during the first lap. Why would I want to race against an AI that will kick my butt? How frustrating are some of the circuit experiences to get gold on? I think that’s what this sophy will feel like racing against. Again, pushing your limits beyond what you’re capable of, just like when you’re desperately trying to chase down the leader only to pass them on the last turn or whenever you manage to catch them.

Sometimes this game, the AI is either way too easy or way to hard. Just give us a slider from easy to difficult so we can access everything in between lol
If she's ever used ingame (likely she will not be) she's obviously not going to just be thrown in as is. That'd be asinine even by PD standards.

Sony AI is only pitting her against GTWS drivers to play up how impressive her tech is, a "look what we're capable of creating" type of deal - it's in no way representative of future updates or implementations.
 
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