Gran Turismo Sport: General Discussion

[Samus]

Sales are not a direct indication of quality. They never have been for any product. High quality products can sell very poorly, poor quality products can sell very well. For example Starbucks is not good coffee. It sells very well.

I'm not saying GT5 and GT6 were outright bad products but likewise the fact they sold well is not a direct indication they were good products either.

 

[Imari]

Despite the stigma at launch...

What stigma at launch? People were falling over themselves to get their hands on it. And rightly so after what we'd seen in GT5P and the GTA demo.

The only stigma at launch was the long development time, but at that point people still believed that Polyphony were unwilling to deliver a game that was anything less than incredible and mostly assumed that because it took five years it must be five years worth of awesome.

Instead it turned out to have been more like three years of constant restarts and rebuilds and two years of scrambling to get something playable together. The game was pretty good, after a year of patches and bug fixes, but not really something that lived up to the Gran Turismo name and certainly not something that I'd hold up as an example of good game design.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Its also indicative of GT's quality.

The Corolla and Camry were the two best-selling cars in the US in 2015. The Corolla is widely considered one of the worst cars in its sector. The Camry fairs a bit better, but still isn't a class-leader in terms of reviews.

Sales numbers are not indicative of quality.

 

[GT6mebe]

Actually one could argue that the brandname is the draw, as such it isn't undeniable at all (unless you claim to speak for everyone who purchased GT 5 & 6).

Its undeniable due to GT's sustained success. If the games were so badly received by fans the sales would not have tremendous legs.

Absolute perfection.

You really need to learn to accept criticism of your favourite when it's warranted.

posting a pointless image like you

And you really need to learn that not all criticism is valid.

 

[PzR Slim]

Its undeniable due to GT's sustained success. If the games were so badly received by fans the sales would not have tremendous legs.

posting a pointless image like you

And you really need to learn that not all criticism is valid.

So you think the image I posted is indicative of perfection? And I didn't say all criticism was valid, I said you need to accept criticism when it's warranted. Reading comprehension not your strong suit?

 

[Scaff]

Its undeniable due to GT's sustained success. If the games were so badly received by fans the sales would not have tremendous legs.

posting a pointless image like you

And you really need to learn that not all criticism is valid.

So you are actually claiming that no one has ever bought a GT title based on the name only?

Oh and you need to learn that you don't get to determine what is and isn't valid.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Its undeniable due to GT's sustained success. If the games were so badly received by fans the sales would not have tremendous legs.

It's interesting you consider a game selling a bit over 40% of its predecessor "sustained success".

Again, sales numbers are not indicative of quality. See above Toyota car comparison.

 

[TS050]

Its undeniable due to GT's sustained success. If the games were so badly received by fans the sales would not have tremendous legs.

posting a pointless image like you

And you really need to learn that not all criticism is valid.

Firstly, that's a GIF.

Secondly, pointless?

You said that GT5 and GT6 were the definition of quality. @PzR Slim then posted the dreaded picture of the Alto Works, which is the complete antithesis of quality.

He's proving a point.

I don't see what the issue is here?

 

[PzR Slim]

Firstly, that's a GIF.

Secondly, pointless?

You said that GT5 and GT6 were the definition of quality. @PzR Slim then posted the dreaded picture of the Alto Works, which is the complete antithesis of quality.

He's proving a point.

I don't see what the issue is here?

The issue is that @GT6mebe can not accept that GT5 & 6 are not the second and third coming

 

[harrison1476]

Hmm I really stirred up some conversation with the GT5/GT6 remaster I just feel like that would be relatively easy to produce and put out, hell if it was being done this year I'd pay 60 for it 👍

 

[GT6mebe]

So you think the image I posted is indicative of perfection? And I didn't say all criticism was valid, I said you need to accept criticism when it's warranted. Reading comprehension not your strong suit?

And where did I ever say GT was perfection? Go on. Show me.
Why would I accept criticism when it is invalid? Don't blame my reading comprehension on your inability to put 2 and 2 together.

So you are actually claiming that no one has ever bought a GT title based on the name only?

Oh and you need to learn that you don't get to determine what is and isn't valid.

Wrong, I'm saying continued support of GT games is due to their being aspects of quality. If such quality did not exist then such support would not be continuously ongoing.

It's interesting you consider a game selling a bit over 40% of its predecessor "sustained success".

Again, sales numbers are not indicative of quality. See above Toyota car comparison.

And its been said numerous times that many factors such as the collapse of PS3 software sales and the collapse of the racing genre affected that.

Continued success does show its pleasing a lot of people though.

Firstly, that's a GIF.

Secondly, pointless?

You said that GT5 and GT6 were the definition of quality. @PzR Slim then posted the dreaded picture of the Alto Works, which is the complete antithesis of quality.

He's proving a point.

I don't see what the issue is here?

I said GT5/6 were quality games.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

And its been said numerous times that many factors such as the collapse of PS3 software sales and the collapse of the racing genre affected that.

Unless you have numbers to show how much of an impact either of those had on the sales numbers — which I'm quite sure you don't — all we can do is assume. I doubt many deny either of those issues had some level of affect on GT6's sales, but none of us know precisely how much.

Regardless, the bald numbers are there: less than half as many people that bought GT6 bought GT5.

Continued success does show its pleasing a lot of people though.

No it doesn't. 5 million sales show 5 million copies of the game found their way into players' hands. It in no way shows us how many people were satisfied with it, or how many people decided it'd be their last GT purchase.

 

[Scaff]

Wrong, I'm saying continued support of GT games is due to their being aspects of quality. If such quality did not exist then such support would not be continuously ongoing.

No you said "There is an undeniable draw to the GT games that supersedes brandname.", for it to be undeniable that this 'draw' supersedes brandname, then no one would have ever bought a GT title based just on the brand name.

I challenge the claim its undeniable based on the fact you have failed to support that claim with a single bit of evidence, hence my question to you "So you are actually claiming that no one has ever bought a GT title based on the name only?", which you have failed to answer.

You can say that 'for you' GT has a draw that supersedes brandname, you can't make that claim for everyone else who has ever purchased it (which would be required for it to be undeniable).

This can be quite easily proven, tell me why I bought every GT title? Explain in detail for each title. Lets see how you do.

 

[PzR Slim]

And where did I ever say GT was perfection? Go on. Show me.
Why would I accept criticism when it is invalid? Don't blame my reading comprehension on your inability to put 2 and 2 together.

Criticism that is warranted is by it's very nature valid. You really do need to brush up on your reading comprehension

 

[Imari]

And you really need to learn that not all criticism is valid.

And its been said numerous times that many factors such as the collapse of PS3 software sales and the collapse of the racing genre affected that.

Ah, so when it suits your argument sales aren't representative of game quality. Only when it makes your point for you.

Gotcha.

 

[Scaff]

And where did I ever say GT was perfection? Go on. Show me.
Why would I accept criticism when it is invalid? Don't blame my reading comprehension on your inability to put 2 and 2 together.

Please describe what criticism of GT is valid?

I said GT5/6 were quality games.

And the other member disagreed with an example of why he feels its not, do you not consider the example he showed to be valid? Is it of the same quality as the example you used?

 

[cjr3559]

Sales are not a direct indication of quality. They never have been for any product. High quality products can sell very poorly, poor quality products can sell very well. For example Starbucks is not good coffee. It sells very well.

I'm not saying GT5 and GT6 were outright bad products but likewise the fact they sold well is not a direct indication they were good products either.

Coffee expert now?

 

[PzR Slim]

Coffee expert now?

You don't have to be a connoisseur to realise Starbucks serve rank coffee

 

[Imari]

Coffee expert now?

It's all brown in a cup to me.

 

[05XR8]

*raises hands*
Thing that gets me, PD were able to get about 5 games(some for JDM use only. Good thing I had a chipped PS2) out from 2001-2006.

I mean Tourist Trophy was a game where they had to photograph all bikes and program the riders. I guess they just loaded the tracks already made in GT4.

Thing of it is, GTHD came out the same time TT was out. How'd they do that with a small team?

The build*achoo-demo-sniff* they are letting people play at each gaming event, could easily be a download for us all. I'd pretty much buy a PS4 just for that.

 

[PzR Slim]

*raises hands*
Thing that gets me, PD were able to get about 5 games(some for JDM use only. Good thing I had a chipped PS2) out from 2001-2006.

I mean Tourist Trophy was a game where they had to photograph all bikes and program the riders. I guess they just loaded the tracks already made in GT4.

Thing of it is, GTHD came out the same time TT was out. How'd they do that with a small team?

The build*achoo-demo-sniff* they are letting people play at each gaming event, could easily be a download for us all. I'd pretty much buy a PS4 just for that.

To be fair to PD games were less complex back then but their work in recent times has been painfully slow at times. It's a lot of factors at work but for me the one over riding problem is a lack of a management structure to allow deadlines to be met.

 

[05XR8]

I can agree with that. When PD did certain demos for manufacturers at car launches, they surely had deadlines.

 

[ScottPuss20]

To be fair to PD games were less complex back then but their work in recent times has been painfully slow at times. It's a lot of factors at work but for me the one over riding problem is a lack of a management structure to allow deadlines to be met.

You'd think after such a long time using the same software PD would be able to churn out content rather quickly. It is so hard to believe that their progress could've decreased so much after the PS2 days. They've been in the business longer than any other competitor and yet they're the worst when it comes to efficiency. I know Kaz is a perfectionist but that shouldn't be an excuse to churn out games slowly.

 

[1241Penguin]

You'd think after such a long time using the same software PD would be able to churn out content rather quickly. It is so hard to believe that their progress could've decreased so much after the PS2 days. They've been in the business longer than any other competitor and yet they're the worst when it comes to efficiency. I know Kaz is a perfectionist but that shouldn't be an excuse to churn out games slowly.

I think that's part of Kaz's insistence that GT remained in-house. If I remember right, I believe that Kaz mentioned the PD team as "one big family" or something to that effect, and while I can understand and appreciate the dedication Kaz has to his own team, I think it also implies that there's a lax atmosphere within PD. This could potentially be why PD refuses to outsource, but I'm concerned that it also means that workers who are not being efficient will not get weeded out. A lack of competition within PD can generate an excessively wide comfort zone in which the workers never feel the rush to do their best within a certain time frame.

Just my assumption.

 

[PzR Slim]

You'd think after such a long time using the same software PD would be able to churn out content rather quickly. It is so hard to believe that their progress could've decreased so much after the PS2 days. They've been in the business longer than any other competitor and yet they're the worst when it comes to efficiency. I know Kaz is a perfectionist but that shouldn't be an excuse to churn out games slowly.

I know this is a commonly held belief but is it actually true? Would a perfectionist have allowed the previous two games to be released? I agree he has some perfectionist tendencies but I think he's much more a dreamer who flitters from idea to idea and never quite manages to see one through to completion. What he needs in my opinion is someone above him who can direct and cajole him into fully completing his ideas.

 

[jm79]

Feels like @GT6mebe is getting done over. Relax.
Also, I have to agree with his general sentiment. I bought a PS3 for GT, expecting it to be quality. Guess what? It was.

GT5P is the best entry in the series, IMHO, and GT5 was a good game. So from 1998 to 2016, they have constantly delivered a quality experience. That's a decent track record (pun intended).

I can't wait for GTS, basically because of this. Nowt wrong with that.

 

[PzR Slim]

Feels like @GT6mebe is getting done over. Relax. I have to agree with his general sentiment. I bought a PS3 for GT, expecting it to be quality. Guess what? It was.

GT5P is the best entry in the series, IMHO, and GT5 was a good game. So from 1998 to 2016, they have constantly delivered a quality experience. That's a decent track record (pun intended).

I can't wait for GTS, basically because of this. Nowt wrong with that.

That is categorically untrue and no matter how many time you lot say it is it wont make it so. GT5 & 6 are the very definition of inconsistent quality.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that they are not good games and that at times they can be truly brilliant. However, is that what we all want from GT, does the GT name not deserve more? For me it does, it deserves to be the best out there. And doubly so when we have been told in recent times that delays are so the game can be flawless, perfect or what ever word Kaz or PD choose to use. The last couple of games have been anything but that. Posters like @GT6mebe refuse to accept any criticism of GT even though it's warranted and that's why they get such a hard time.

 

[Nato_777]

That is categorically untrue and no matter how many time you lot say it is it wont make it so. GT5 & 6 are the very definition of inconsistent quality.

In terms of assets, absolutely! In terms of overall experience - well it depends on your expectations and what standards you hold it to so will differ from person to person but certainly some will see 5 & 6 as quality games and others not.
Neither are wrong in my opinion.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Feels like @GT6mebe is getting done over. Relax.
Also, I have to agree with his general sentiment. I bought a PS3 for GT, expecting it to be quality. Guess what? It was.

GT5P is the best entry in the series, IMHO, and GT5 was a good game. So from 1998 to 2016, they have constantly delivered a quality experience. That's a decent track record (pun intended).

I can't wait for GTS, basically because of this. Nowt wrong with that.

Yes. GT5P. Why couldn't they have launched GT7P last year with 6-7 tracks and 50-60 cars? Sell it for a Prologue price and then build on it with reasonably regular expansion packs.....

 

[PzR Slim]

In terms of assets, absolutely! In terms of overall experience - well it depends on your expectations and what standards you hold it to so will differ from person to person but certainly some will see 5 & 6 as quality games and others not.
Neither are wrong in my opinion.

It's not subjective when standard cars exist.