Gran Turismo Sport vs. Assetto Corsa

[Saidur_Ali]

Driving to the limit in Assetto is easy? Dont think so. Tell me that with P1 in nordschleife with no assists.

I say again the kerb thing. In Assetto and in real life you avoid the kerbs. In GT seems it doesnt take no time and no risk to hitting them.

When the game releases, we will see. But GT Sport cant be as sim as assetto for multiple reasons: what we have seen in videos, it is a casual game meant to sell a lot, they never havent made a single simulator, YAMAUCHI HIMSELF said it wasnt going to be a sim, that graphics are probably incompatible with sim physics and what people say. I saw one fanboy saying it is better than PC, John Sabol saying it remembers him a little bit to assetto and another guy saying it was better than GT6 but no so much (all of that talking about the last build).

They behave really well. With a steering wheel and with the FFB and physics being so good, the cars sort of drive themselves.

Think the P1 would be quite easy to drive with no assists. 98T with full boost and qualifying tyres with no assists is quite scary though trying to push to limits due to tyre temperatures becoming so high and they keep on rising even on straights!

From what I've seen, I think AC has faster AI drivers. I haven't done a GT SPORT race against AI yet and only done a few on AC against hardest difficulty and it wasn't super easy to win IIRC.

 

[TS050]

Ignore what? He is confirming what I was saying. You are acting like a proper fanboy

"Ignore" as in I made a mistake with the post, and as posts can't be deleted, I'd rather people just ignore it instead.

Also, GT fanboy? Far from it. Sit down and stop jumping to conclusions.

 

[FPV MIC]

Difficulty: In easy, from 12 to 1 in 3 minutes in the ring driving like 🤬. Try to do that in Assetto.

Difficulty: The AI speed varies greatly at the moment for the current version of AC. Yes there are some races that are impossible for me to win set on Medium (Career>N1>Quick Race - Giulietta QV @ Magione) but there are also races set on Alien where I can hit the lead early on lap 2 in less than 3 minutes and win by 17+ seconds (Special Events>500 Race @ Magione).

I have hardly driven on AC so far and not at all on GT Sport but I do think a more complete and accurate comparison can only be done when AC is updated to more like the current PC version, and GT Sport is actually released (and then maybe tweeked).

Edit: I have PS 4 version of AC.

 

[GTEFGHA]

When the game releases, we will see. But GT Sport cant be as sim as assetto for multiple reasons: what we have seen in videos, it is a casual game meant to sell a lot, they never havent made a single simulator, YAMAUCHI HIMSELF said it wasnt going to be a sim, that graphics are probably incompatible with sim physics and what people say. I saw one fanboy saying it is better than PC, John Sabol saying it remembers him a little bit to assetto and another guy saying it was better than GT6 but no so much (all of that talking about the last build)..

I wouldn't consider GTS a very "casual" game since it is kind of revolving around e-Sports competitions, although it is advertised to be approachable by anyone...

Anyways could you provide a link to where: "...YAMAUCHI HIMSELF said it wasnt going to be a sim..."
Or atleast say what interview it was on

 

[The Stig Farmer]

I say again the kerb thing. In Assetto and in real life you avoid the kerbs.

OK

 

[SlimCharles]

They behave really well. With a steering wheel and with the FFB and physics being so good, the cars sort of drive themselves.

Think the P1 would be quite easy to drive with no assists. 98T with full boost and qualifying tyres with no assists is quite scary though trying to push to limits due to tyre temperatures becoming so high and they keep on rising even on straights!

From what I've seen, I think AC has faster AI drivers. I haven't done a GT SPORT race against AI yet and only done a few on AC against hardest difficulty and it wasn't super easy to win IIRC.

I told you because i did it and it was terrifying (and with ABS), i know the track quite a bit and it felt like a rally stage. Yes, you can drive the P1. Real supercars and hypercars are easy to drive, but very difficult to drive fast (i probably did a 7:19 in the normal layout, way far from the 6:59 the P1 probably did).



Agree with the force feedback and physics. I feel the physics to be deeper than PCars (very similar both games in difficulty) but the car handles more intuitive thanks to the force feedback.

"Ignore" as in I made a mistake with the post, and as posts can't be deleted, I'd rather people just ignore it instead.

Also, GT fanboy? Far from it. Sit down and stop jumping to conclusions.

Ignore my comment then.

OK

Do you really think i m so stupid to say that? I was talking about Nordschleife kerbs.

I have hardly driven on AC so far and not at all on GT Sport but I do think a more complete and accurate comparison can only be done when AC is updated to more like the current PC version, and GT Sport is actually released (and then maybe tweeked).

True. But like I said, some things can be compared, some better than others. AI is hard to compare right know, but there are some details that can be pointed.

Anyways could you provide a link to where: "...YAMAUCHI HIMSELF said it wasnt going to be a sim..."
Or atleast say what interview it was on

Was posted on general discussion. How can i serch for key words in that thread?

 

[CarreraGT]

Two people said it was better to different degrees. I'm sure you wouldn't believe a sample size that small saying it was bad so similarly you shouldn't base anything positive on such a small sample size.

It wouldn't be hard for the AI to be better that GT6... When talking AI (or sound) with regards to the Gran Turismo series, "better" often means "less terrible".

And yes, you can get a good feel for how the AI behaves from youtube videos. It's a bit like how people argue that you can't judge how a game sounds from youtube videos...

 

[FPV MIC]

True. But like I said, some things can be compared, some better than others. AI is hard to compare right know, but there are some details that can be pointed.

But isn't this a comparison?

I dont know if AI is downgraded or not from PC, but it is light years apart from GT Sport AI. Very, very good AI.

And also this?

I have watched videos of the IA. Unlike other things like physics, IA can be judge (not enterally) by videos.

Edit: The AI in AC has some very strange behavior at times (unrealistic grip for one) but IMO both games will be standouts in their own right. It's a great time to be a console racer.

 

[SlimCharles]

But isn't this a comparison?

Yes... but there are some things that can be compared with more accuracy than others by watching gameplays.

Edit: The AI in AC has some very strange behavior at times (unrealistic grip for one) but IMO both games will be standouts in their own right. It's a great time to be a console racer.

AI works with same physics as you (not like PCars). They do race with traction control, and when you hit them, they disable it for a moment. Like that, they dont have a big advantage and they can loose control (you cant disable traction control for all the time because the AI would be drifting all the time ).

And yes, awesome generation. Best one for me: first simulator in console (Assetto), first time a game (if what they say is true) will have online reputation and online fair competition (GT Sport), 2º and 3º rally simulators of console history, an almost sim like PCars, one of the best arcades ever made for me (Driveclub)...

Yes, I think is a notable generation.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I told you because i did it and it was terrifying (and with ABS), i know the track quite a bit and it felt like a rally stage. Yes, you can drive the P1. Real supercars and hypercars are easy to drive, but very difficult to drive fast (i probably did a 7:19 in the normal layout, way far from the 6:59 the P1 probably did).



Agree with the force feedback and physics. I feel the physics to be deeper than PCars (very similar both games in difficulty) but the car handles more intuitive thanks to the force feedback.

You should try it without ABS, get a better feel for the track then. Doesn't look too difficult to drive looking at your video. I think last hypercar I drove in AC was a LaFerrari a while back and without ABS, it was quite easy to drive and you can ride the kerbs a lot. Probably a bit too easy really but they're always changing things so hopefully it is better in latest update.



I think it is quite magical how the force feedback is as it seems to give so much detail while not overheating the wheel too much. GT they need to improve it as since a GT6 update, it's been quite weak. Hopefully will give both a go with the direct drive Thrustmaster wheel when out, will be interesting to compare.

 

[Mike_grpA]

AI works with same physics as you (not like PCars).

Why is it that everyone has just gobbled up this PR line and believed it? Regardless of evidence to the contrary.

Pretty sure the player's physics in AC aren't this unrealistic:





It's pretty obvious the AI runs very simplified physics compared to the player, as they do in every sim. It would actually be concerning if the AI did run the exact same physics as the player, because in order to make the physics for 17 odd cars all the same, and have it run on a PS4 or XB1, the physics would have to be pretty basic.

 

[Rich S]

The graphics on console dont seem to be up to snuff with PC, I haven't played Assetto yet but my impression was the old PS3 GT5 had about the same or better than Corsa on PS4 and XB1, a bit off.

Physics though are something us PS3 GT5/6 racers wanted for PS4 so maybe it can deliver in that department. I just wish the trees were not 2D as show early in one vid.

 

[Ameer67]

The graphics on console dont seem to be up to snuff with PC, I haven't played Assetto yet but my impression was the old PS3 GT5 had about the same or better than Corsa on PS4 and XB1, a bit off.

Physics though are something us PS3 GT5/6 racers wanted for PS4 so maybe it can deliver in that department. I just wish the trees were not 2D as show early in one vid.

Visuals never were/are a strong point for Assetto Corsa even on PC. At times it can look pretty good but most of the time I would say the graphics are acceptable for this day and age. You have to hand it to Polyphony; they REALLY know how to make their games shine.

 

[freedom1104]

The only differences are Assetto Corsa on consoles is currently without 1.8 patch which I believe it brings Tyre model 10.

1.8 patch arrives to consoles next week.

Actually i think the AI in AC ps4 are still in Pre 1.7 before the Huge AI update in AC PC. There are discussion about this in the assetto corsa section here.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Yes... but there are some things that can be compared with more accuracy than others by watching gameplays.



AI works with same physics as you (not like PCars). They do race with traction control, and when you hit them, they disable it for a moment. Like that, they dont have a big advantage and they can loose control (you cant disable traction control for all the time because the AI would be drifting all the time ).

And yes, awesome generation. Best one for me: first simulator in console (Assetto), first time a game (if what they say is true) will have online reputation and online fair competition (GT Sport), 2º and 3º rally simulators of console history, an almost sim like PCars, one of the best arcades ever made for me (Driveclub)...

Yes, I think is a notable generation.

Why would computer needs traction control ? AI have inhuman reaction times and ability to adjust input at least at physics tick rate, unless the AI programmer reduce these parameter to make it more human ( slow reaction, imprecise input ), but adding traction control so the AI won't drift is counter intuitive approach in AI routines.

The same physics maybe global physic simulation like gravity/mass, engine, drivetrain, suspension, and these might not be 100% the same, and I doubt tire physics are 100% same as the player from what I've seen from this :

Why is it that everyone has just gobbled up this PR line and believed it? Regardless of evidence to the contrary.

Pretty sure the player's physics in AC aren't this unrealistic:





It's pretty obvious the AI runs very simplified physics compared to the player, as they do in every sim. It would actually be concerning if the AI did run the exact same physics as the player, because in order to make the physics for 17 odd cars all the same, and have it run on a PS4 or XB1, the physics would have to be pretty basic.

Have anyone ever seen AI cars telemetry ? Tire pressure/temp readings, throttle/brake inputs, suspension travel, steering inputs ? That would easily give way if the physics are indeed the same 100% or not. From the video with the blue BMW, I have seen it posted before, I suspect stability control or real time physics adjustment may be applied when needed to the AI, the way it recover lost grip instantly as it understeered and then took off ... The grey BMW video shows this well , air time on 2 wheel stunt FTW Reminds me of GT6 AI stoppie while braking

 

[Mike_grpA]

.... Reminds me of GT6 AI stoppie while braking

Exactly my thoughts. It's not some driver aid that's been enabled, unless the driver aids in AC defy physics. The AI obviously have massive grip multipliers added to them to get them out of trouble. Like the super duper mega grip the GT AI had that led to the hilarious stoppies, it's the same thing happening here.

Seriously, if the AI's physics are identical to the player's in AC, the physics aren't very complex.

 

[Imari]

OK

Just because you can find pictures of it doesn't mean it's a good idea. How much control do you have over the car while it's on two wheels? How much does it unstabilise the car when it lands from that height.

The truth is that it goes both ways. There are kerbs that you hit and kerbs that you don't. It depends on the car, the speed, and what comes before and after it on the track. But as a rule of thumb, especially on the Nords where a lot of the kerbs are quite high, it's probably better to stay off them if possible.

Why is it that everyone has just gobbled up this PR line and believed it? Regardless of evidence to the contrary.

Pretty sure the player's physics in AC aren't this unrealistic:





It's pretty obvious the AI runs very simplified physics compared to the player, as they do in every sim. It would actually be concerning if the AI did run the exact same physics as the player, because in order to make the physics for 17 odd cars all the same, and have it run on a PS4 or XB1, the physics would have to be pretty basic.

The physics are in many ways very basic, especially the tyre model. But it's a very good representation of real physics still. Kunos make good physics by being clever rather than adding more lines of code, similar to how Reiza have made an incredible sim on the geriatric gMotor2 engine.

Sim racers like to say that harder physics aren't always better. More complicated physics aren't always better either.

That last video is definitely player physics. How it's done that is by upping the grip modifier. I did it once on the PC version when I was tinkering around with the files. Same physics, but if I gave the tyres enough grip you could roll it really easily. It was actually a nightmare to drive.

Just because they're on the same physics doesn't mean that they have exactly the same car or tyres that you do.

The first two I don't see anything that's impossible with the player physics. Impossible with the car, tyres and reactions that a player has, sure. But possible by simply messing with car parameters, not the physics.

Why would computer needs traction control ? AI have inhuman reaction times and ability to adjust input at least at physics tick rate, unless the AI programmer reduce these parameter to make it more human ( slow reaction, imprecise input ), but adding traction control so the AI won't drift is counter intuitive approach in AI routines.

Unless it's easier and quicker simply to use your TC routine than it is to try and program an AI to modulate the throttle.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Unless it's easier and quicker simply to use your TC routine than it is to try and program an AI to modulate the throttle.

I think AI ability to modulate throttle is the basic core AI function to drive a car, it can use the car traction/grip value at any given moment (same rate as physics calculation) to decide how much throttle to apply, if the TC routine used by player needs to be applied to the AI, the AI may have been programmed with much lower physics refresh rate while driving, and that also raises the question if the AI car physics also downgraded ( at least in tick rate/calculation per second )

 

[Imari]

I think AI ability to modulate throttle is the basic core AI function to drive a car, it can use the car traction/grip value at any given moment (same rate as physics calculation) to decide how much throttle to apply, if the TC routine used by player needs to be applied to the AI, the AI may have been programmed with much lower physics refresh rate while driving, and that also raises the question if the AI car physics also downgraded ( at least in tick rate/calculation per second )

Maybe so. I dunno exactly how these things work. All I meant is that I can imagine a situation in where it might be easier or more efficient or whatever to just have the AI decide whether the throttle is open or closed and let the TC deal with the rest.

Maybe it turns out that trying to get the right throttle modulation from the physics is really hard. Maybe it just doesn't deal well with kerbs, car to car contact, grass and different surfaces, and so on. I'm not saying it's the best way, but they're a little team and I can see a bunch of ways that this might be a reasonable hack that gives them 95% of the performance that they want for a fraction of the time invested.

When you've got a dozen people or however many there are I'm guessing that you go for easy solutions as often as possible so that you can spend your time on the big problems.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Maybe so. I dunno exactly how these things work. All I meant is that I can imagine a situation in where it might be easier or more efficient or whatever to just have the AI decide whether the throttle is open or closed and let the TC deal with the rest.

Maybe it turns out that trying to get the right throttle modulation from the physics is really hard. Maybe it just doesn't deal well with kerbs, car to car contact, grass and different surfaces, and so on. I'm not saying it's the best way, but they're a little team and I can see a bunch of ways that this might be a reasonable hack that gives them 95% of the performance that they want for a fraction of the time invested.

When you've got a dozen people or however many there are I'm guessing that you go for easy solutions as often as possible so that you can spend your time on the big problems.

How good is the TC in AC ? Better than real TC system ( which have various ways to achieve same objective, limiting wheel slip ) ? Does the TC in AC also used brake ?

Do the AI suffers the same damage as players do, if the damage is on ? Things like engine wear, driveline wear ( rough shifting etc ) ?

 

[Imari]

How good is the TC in AC ? Better than real TC system ( which have various ways to achieve same objective, limiting wheel slip ) ? Does the TC in AC also used brake ?

Do the AI suffers the same damage as players do, if the damage is on ? Things like engine wear, driveline wear ( rough shifting etc ) ?

I don't know any of these things. Your guess is as good as mine.

 

[Scaff]

Ignore what? He is confirming what I was saying. You are acting like a proper fanboy.

Don't do this again.

Fanboy is a derogatory term and the staff have no patience for this kind of behavior.

 

[freedom1104]

How good is the TC in AC ? Better than real TC system ( which have various ways to achieve same objective, limiting wheel slip ) ? Does the TC in AC also used brake ?

Do the AI suffers the same damage as players do, if the damage is on ? Things like engine wear, driveline wear ( rough shifting etc ) ?

Maybe i would try to race for awhile with alien AI and bang the hell out of it later tonight to get some results for you guys.

 

[SlimCharles]

So... the proof is a couple of random videos? Some weird moves could be explain to that on/off tracction control or simply a bug.

One person is telling me the physics in PC can be proved that they are the same in AI cars and player by using developers apps that you cant handle if you mod a .ini . Kunos itself says the physics are the same so does the community of steam (for example).

edit:

Why would computer needs traction control ? AI have inhuman reaction times and ability to adjust input at least at physics tick rate, unless the AI programmer reduce these parameter to make it more human ( slow reaction, imprecise input ), but adding traction control so the AI won't drift is counter intuitive approach in AI routines.

Dont know why Stefano did it like that. The TC thing is what he explained in one of his videos

 

[Scaff]

Ẁell having played both I can say that the GTS AI is better than the AC AI, and that's something I never thought I would say about GT AI in comparison to a competitor.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

So... the proof is a couple of random videos? Some weird moves could be explain to that on/off tracction control or simply a bug.

One person is telling me the physics in PC can be proved that they are the same in AI cars and player by using developers apps that you cant handle if you mod a .ini . Kunos itself says the physics are the same so does the community of steam (for example).

edit:



Dont know why Stefano did it like that. The TC thing is what he explained in one of his videos

Saying physics is the same is very general statement, it can be that the law of gravity physics is the same, the same collision physics, the same aero physics, but may not be all of them. Could you explain clearly about .ini file ? I have tinkered with AC files before helping someone here with a mod car, those are parameter ini files that define the car, not the physics ( physics here are the formulas, the calculations that simulate the whole works and only accessible in the source codes of the program )

One can say AI are governed by the same physics, but may not cover alteration in real time ( certain trigger routine like when a car is going to roll over, and it gets fixed back to the ground ) or different set of parameter used when certain condition reached - past grip limit for example ( different tire curves - slip, camber, SAT, heat ) or assist that can be triggered on demand when conditions are met ( understeer, brake lock ups, wheel spin ) - stability control is good example here that I have been told is exaggerated in AC in terms of effectiveness.

Can you roll over the cars in AC ? Have you seen what happens when several AI crashes to each other or intentionally hit them, push them slowly off track or hit them hard, real hard to get them off track ? What are their reaction, do they steer back or slow down, any assist engaged in these situation ?

The only definite way is to see the AI cars real time telemetry ( steering, throttle/brake, tire pressure/temp, suspension travel ) when they are in conditions like on those videos I quoted ( the 2 wheels, the instant recovery etc )

I would love to see someone upload a video of player doing PIT maneuver on AI car Wonder how that would go

 

[nocturnalgrey]

Ẁell having played both I can say that the GTS AI is better than the AC AI, and that's something I never thought I would say about GT AI in comparison to a competitor.

I don't know what to say... haha

With the delay of GT Sport, I may just pick this game up now. I was going to pass on it, but I need a sim type game on my PS4.

 

[Mike_grpA]

The physics are in many ways very basic, especially the tyre model. But it's a very good representation of real physics still. Kunos make good physics by being clever rather than adding more lines of code, similar to how Reiza have made an incredible sim on the geriatric gMotor2 engine.

You mean ISIMotor2? gMotor is just the graphics component of ISIMotor. Also, despite ISIMotor2 being 11 years old now, it's still very complex, and the later sims, like Automobilista , that use ISIMotor2, are using versions that have been considerably modded.

Sim racers like to say that harder physics aren't always better. More complicated physics aren't always better either.

That last video is definitely player physics. How it's done that is by upping the grip modifier. I did it once on the PC version when I was tinkering around with the files. Same physics, but if I gave the tyres enough grip you could roll it really easily. It was actually a nightmare to drive.

Just because they're on the same physics doesn't mean that they have exactly the same car or tyres that you do.

Well if the AI are using grip modifiers, they're not using the exact same physics as the player really. If all the rest of the physics are identical, then it indeed must be very basic for the PS4 and XB1 to run the game. Not that that's a bad thing, but to be honest I was expecting AC to have quite a lot modeled in the physics, after reading all the hype people have built around it.

 

[BoneSawTX]

GTS forfeited, AC takes the win.

 

[Mike_grpA]

GTS forfeited, AC takes the win.

Yeah just saw it's been delayed, and they haven't even given a more specific release date than "some time in 2017" lol. At this rate, we'll be playing Pcars2 before GTS.

I do find it kind of funny that PD still haven't learned from the past, but I feel sorry for people who have pre-ordered a game they now have no idea when they'll get. For all we know, we might not see it 'till this time next year.