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[20832]

Rare species like the people who camp out at Flugplatz?

There are no camping grounds near the Flugplatz. At least none that are allowed that is.

 

[rono_thomas]

Because the track is known for it "nature" origin. It's not a "planned" race track like most of F1 courses. You also have large national parks with some very rare animals, some of which only live in the Eifel, very close to the track. Increasing the run off area or altering the track layout would not only cost a lot of money, which the new investor and the Nürburgring GmbH does not really have nor want to spend, and it would also mean potentially destroying forests to either make the track wider or add a run off area. It's a very fine balance, which makes it close to impossible, but also makes up the charme of the track.

The whole nature aspect is also the reason, why there is a jump in the first place. Adding higher fences or closing down the spectator area at this corner are the only, relatively cheap options to improve safety and prevent such accidents with human casualties, which were (until today) none at Flugplatz/Quiddelbacher Höhe. Other areas of the track have many more casualties to report, especially turns like Wippermann, Brünnchen and Eiskurve.

I cant understand why removing spectators would be the best thing to do, when simple modifications are all that is needed. That seems a way that will kill off an event.

 

[Omnis]

There are no camping grounds near the Flugplatz.

Well at least I know you're really German. I was talking about the area where the spectators gather.

 

[20832]

I cant understand why removing spectators would be the best thing to do, when simple modifications are all that is needed. That seems a way that will kill off an event.

Because removing a spectator "area" would cost nothing, whereas altering the layout or adding more runoff would cost money, which again the Nürburgring GmbH does not have. And killing off an event is taking it very far. At most 200 people watch at Flugplatz. Areas like Brünnchen, Eiskurve, Wippermann, Adenauer Forst and Pflanzgarten have MUCH more spectators, although these areas aren't as dangerous, except for Wippermann.

Another decent and not so expensive solution would be to just have steel barriers like at Wippermann there with higher fences, because the tyres are simply not the best solution for the speeds these cars are going.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I cant understand why removing spectators would be the best thing to do, when simple modifications are all that is needed. That seems a way that will kill off an event.

I can't work out how you can think that something a major as circuit modification is somehow magically easier than stopping people from spectating from there.

You do realise that no one on the actual 'Ring pays to watch racing don't you? You only pay to watch from the GP stands.

 

[20832]

Well at least I know you're really German. I was talking about the area where the spectators gather.

Not only am I really German, but I grew up next to track and lived 13 years of my life in Adenau. So maybe I'm a little bit more passionate about the Nordschleife than others

 

[G.T.Ace]

So you're the CFO now? In case you haven't noticed, there is no drop-off on the outside of flugplatz. All they would need to do is drive a shovel and a bulldozer down the road and dig out the side of that hill to create more runoff. They could pave it or at least put enough space to add a secondary tire/foam barrier.

There's no money currently for that. They spent too much on the whole Nürburgring experience bullcrap, we can be glad that the place still exists. Locking up the place for spectators would be cheaper, easier and had the same effect. By the way, they already lowered the hill some years ago, or at least flattened it slightly.

 

[20832]

You do realise that no one on the actual 'Ring pays to watch racing don't you? You only pay to watch from the GP stands.

And you pay to camp on the official camping grounds @ the 24h. But the VLN and other events are free, yes.

 

[G_Parrilla]

Instead of more running off area, maybe they should consider higher and stronger fences.
Should be cheaper than bulldozing a hill.

 

[rono_thomas]

Because removing a spectator "area" would cost nothing, whereas altering the layout or adding more runoff would cost money, which again the Nürburgring GmbH does not have. And killing off an event is taking it very far. At most 200 people watch at Flugplatz. Areas like Brünnchen, Eiskurve, Wippermann, Adenauer Forst and Pflanzgarten have MUCH more spectators, although these areas aren't as dangerous, except for Wippermann.

Another decent and not so expensive solution would be to just have steel barriers like at Wippermann there with higher fences, because the tyres are simply not the best solution for the speeds these cars are going.

I would agree with the cost issue but I would think it naïve that after all is said and done that only spectator safety at one corner is going to come under scrutiny and change.

I can't work out how you can think that something a major as circuit modification is somehow magically easier than stopping people from spectating from there.

You do realise that no one on the actual 'Ring pays to watch racing don't you? You only pay to watch from the GP stands.

A simple chicane to slow the cars before the hill would not be that difficult - whilst keeping the charm and spectators - there is obviously something needed as the safety measures in place failed to work as they were expected to. The FIA specs don't meet the needs at that corner.

 

[boiltheocean]

I cant understand why removing spectators would be the best thing to do, when simple modifications are all that is needed. That seems a way that will kill off an event.

It's cheap, it's easy, it's fast and it has no environmental impact. Tell me why it isn't a good idea? People are cut off from spectating all sorts of areas on the Nordschliefe yet they still come in their thousands year after year. Not many people actually go to Flugplatz during the N24, it's not a great place to watch from and cars getting airborne gets old pretty quick. Pflanzgarten is better for that sort of thing anyway, you can stand in relative safety and it's far more accessible.

As a note this thread has really gone to 🤬 in the last few hours. Plenty of armchair experts who've never visited the damn place making all sorts of ludicrous suggestions on what is best, or calling for all sorts of things to be banned.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Instead of more running off area, maybe they should consider higher and stronger fences.
Should be cheaper than bulldozing a hill.

Stronger fences could be dangerous for the drivers and also throw the cars back on the track, which isn't optimal either.

EDIT: @boiltheocean made another good point: It's not even a great and common place to spectate. Flugplatz is usually quite empty. Schwedenkreuz and Pflanzgarten are much better places.

 

[rono_thomas]

It's cheap, it's easy, it's fast and it has no environmental impact. Tell me why it isn't a good idea? People are cut off from spectating all sorts of areas on the Nordschliefe yet they still come in their thousands year after year. Not many people actually go to Flugplatz during the N24, it's not a great place to watch from and cars getting airborne gets old pretty quick. Pflanzgarten is better for that sort of thing anyway, you can stand in relative safety and it's far more accessible.

As a note this thread has really gone to 🤬 in the last few hours. Plenty of armchair experts who've never visited the damn place making all sorts of ludicrous suggestions on what is best, or calling for all sorts of things to be banned.

Because the safety measures in place failed both the driver and spectators. Changes will inevitably happen - its naïve to think that just by banning spectators from certain areas is all that's or will be needed.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Because the safety measures in place failed both the driver and spectators. Changes will inevitably happen - its naïve to think that just by banning spectators from certain areas is all that's or will be needed.

How did it fail the driver? Jann is okay, without spectators there and the death of one, we wouldn't even discuss this yet. If the cars cannot race on the Nordschleife, the cars need to be changed, just as back then in Le Mans. If spectators stand on dangerous places, they need to move. It's pretty simple.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I would agree with the cost issue but I would think it naïve that after all is said and done that only spectator safety at one corner is going to come under scrutiny and change.

A simple chicane to slow the cars before the hill would not be that difficult - whilst keeping the charm and spectators - there is obviously something needed as they safety measures in place failed to work as they were expected to. The FIA specs don't meet the needs at that corner.

Mutually incompatible terms to me. The spectators don't pay to watch from there. No one loses money from stopping them from standing there.

 

[20832]

I would agree with the cost issue but I would think it naïve that after all is said and done that only spectator safety at one corner is going to come under scrutiny and change.

That's because Flugplatz is the only corner where spectators could potentially be in danger. Quiddelbacher Höhe, Flugplatz, the Hill before Schwedenkreuz, Pflanzgarten 1 and 2 are the only places where the card gets air. Flugplatz is the only place where it could be potentially dangerous, any other corner has more than enough safety through metal barriers, fences and no spectator areas. THAT'S why it only needs to be done there.

Do you really think that even if the Nürburgring GmbH had the money they alter the whole layout and/or add runoff areas? Never. The track is known for it's challenging layout, for it's drastic elevation changes, it's lack of runoff areas. If you'd change that, the whole track would become just "one of the rest", it's the reason why it's still being used today. It's the reason why people from all over the world come there to drive their cars over the track challenging themselfes.

And then you also have another, VERY important factor that would be lost by altering the layout. The whole region is depended on the Nordschleife and Nürburgring. Without the Nürburgring and the Nordschleife, the whole area would be dead, most of the jobs would be lost.

I don't see your point, and clearly you don't really have much of a clue how the track really looks like, when you drive on it, what the "hot spots" are, because if you knew the track at least a little bit in real life and not just from video games, then you would know that your idea is frankly utter crap. What am I saying, even if you don't know the track, you should know that banning the spectators from this very specific area is a much better solution for safety than altering an entire, 21km long track.

 

[G_Parrilla]

Stronger fences could be dangerous for the drivers and also throw the cars back on the track, which isn't optimal either.

EDIT: @boiltheocean made another good point: It's not even a great and common place to spectate. Flugplatz is usually quite empty. Schwedenkreuz and Pflanzgarten are much better places.

The tire wall should be kept as well, and I don't know what the chances of a car bouncing into the track again at that distance and angle are, but the fence is in the extreme case of a car flying, a "normal" accident should be absorbed by the tyre wall.
I thought remembering the 2011 Le Mans crash (although there was a big runoff area anf the wall and fence were separate)

A simple chicane to slow the cars before the hill would not be that difficult - whilst keeping the charm and spectators - there is obviously something needed as the safety measures in place failed to work as they were expected to. The FIA specs don't meet the needs at that corner.

Changing the layout is a terrible idea from a spectator standpoint (not the ones sitting at Flugplatz, the ones watching the race on TV and Internet).

 

[rono_thomas]

The safety measures in place were inadequate to the task this is plain as day for all to see - the follow on will be that the whole course will be assessed to meet any new standards that are required this will all cost more money as it is retrospectively being done now.

 

[CodeRedR51]

How did it fail the driver? Jann is okay, without spectators there and the death of one, we wouldn't even discuss this yet. If the cars cannot race on the Nordschleife, the cars need to be changed, just as back then in Le Mans. If spectators stand on dangerous places, they need to move. It's pretty simple.

Not to mention it appears that the spectators were not behind the secondary fence like they should have been.

 

[20832]

The safety measures in place were inadequate to the task this is plain as day for all to see - the follow on will be that the whole course will be assessed to meet any new standards that are required this will all cost more money as it is retrospectively being done now.

You could do that if it were a race track, but it's not a race track. It's a country road.

This whole discussion wouldn't have occured if spectators wouldn't have been injured (and one killed).
How do you most effectively fight and prevent this from happening in the future? DON'T HAVE SPECTATORS IN THIS SPECIFIC AREA!

I don't get how someone can be so ignorant and naive to the fact and suggest a much more costly alteration instead of a much cheaper solution, that would fight the problem just as and even more effective without having any sort of impact to the overall layout, charme, enviroment and spectator numbers. I just don't get it.

 

[20832]

I'm sorry, but there has had to be some kind of problem with the setup. There isn't ANY other car that gets airbourne like that at Flugplatz, no GT3, no GT4 or any other car for that matter.

I think that's also a very effective way to prevent something like this, asking Nissan to fix their car. Since it already happened back in 2013 (not with nearly the same dramatic outcome), there clearly has to be something wrong with either the car turning into a huge canvas and/or the setup.

Neither GT3 cars get nearly as much air as the GT-R

Spoiler

 

[Terronium-12]

Do not post videos of the incident.

 

[HKS racer]

I'm sure you're an aerodynamic expert and can immediately evaluate all variables, including complete unknowns, to reach a solid and infallible conclusion on how this car took off.

I'm sure your post add nothing useful to the thread.

 

[sems4arsenal]

Weirdly the car looked to be airbourne before the crest finishes.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Take Inoue may get a lot of stick, he's decided to blame Jan on twitter. Classy NOT

THIS Take Inoue? Classy guy.

 

[super_gt]

Weirdly the car looked to be airbourne before the crest finishes.

This probably means that he drives too fast.

 

[sems4arsenal]

This probably means that he drives too fast.

Nah not buying it, at first I thought maybe the Porsche created turbulance which caused this freak lift -off but looks like he cleared it before, could they have gotten the setup that badly?

Maybe it's a combination of all three but don't see Jann at fault at all.

 

[cnd01]

It's all that extra power they had at the Bathurst 12H coming back to bite them

 

[MatskiMonk]

Don't be a knob. It's never a driver's fault if a spectator dies. That's bad course design and a failure of safety considerations. The drivers race on the assumption that the circuit is safe. Do you think anyone would race if the spectators could have a picnic on the rumble strips?

I suppose with the flat bend in your rhetorical question, you may think that Ayrton Senna killed himself?

Don't be a knob Omnis, and read my posts again, the only blame I've laid for the death in this thread was with the person that died IF they were in an area where they shouldn't have been. However I 'm not subscribing to the idea that getting air off a crest because you were going to fast is some kind of mystical, impossible to understand, set of circumstances.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Take Inoue may get a lot of stick, he's decided to blame Jan on twitter. Classy NOT

Here IS Inoue's tweet, pretty disgusting I'm afraid. Shows his understanding of racing (as demonstrated over the years, in my opinion).