GT4 vs Forza [Let the battle begin]

[Symtex]

I just wish people would keep an eye open. When GT4 Prologue came out the game had some little bug and concern regarding the games and everyone was positive how those problem would be solved by the time GT4 comes out.

When Forza has some little bug and concern, everyone jump on the bandwagon : FORZA the suxxor !!!!!. That is not being very objective. I think Forza will be an awesome racing sim for the xbox. It offers a different product and I thank Microsoft for that. I do not want a GT clone but a difference approach. Microsoft will suceed by doing so.

 

[98cobra]

not only giant, but seemingly well varied. not 40 of the same car, the list really does look pretty respectable

 

[MailMan]

Ok, im quite new here so my opinion might not matter to some of the people. Nonetheless I need to say this.

There's a huge and I mean HUGE difference between something looking prettier and something looking more "real". I've a bit of a computer art background if I can say that at my age. Lightwave 3d and stuff like 3d Studio max are common programs for me. When it comes down to making something look good (as in realistic), it's 75-80% about the lighting.

Modelling something in 3d is all about the effecient use of Polygons, like many of you guys probably know. The more you have, the more detailed you can make something look. You can make curves more smooth and add more 3d surfaces to a model. In that, Forza has the advantage over GT4.

Second is the texturing. The higher resolution of the textures, the more detail can be seen at close range. Stuff like brands, stickers, leafs can look more convincing at close range. Again, Forza has the ability to surpase GT4 on that, simply based on the hardware specs.

Last but not least, the lighting. This is by far the most important aspect. You can ask any 3d artist this question. You can make a perfect modelled and textured car look horrible with bad lighting. While you can make a bad model with bad textures look convincingly real with good lighting.
Lighting effects everything. Propper lighting doesn't give a car more detail, it just makes sure it doesn't lose any. With really bad lighting detail gets lost, textures will look dull, polies will be wasted since you can't even see it's modelled in 3d because of the lack of light etc.
Now Forza doesn't have bad lighting. But in my view, it's just not as good as GT4's.
Forza's screenshots generally look nicer, prettier. But not more realistic. Ofcourse that's just my opinion, but I think Cobragt sorta means the same.

Maybe I can give a few examples. These models were all made and lighted by me a while ago.

The first link shows a wooden barrel I made. It has high resolution textures and bump mapping on its surface to make it look like it has dents and cracks. It is lighted by 2 bright yellowish lights.
http://members.home.nl/rgj.post/ton.jpg

As you can see, it looks fairly nice. You can clearly see the little holes in the wood surface reflecting by the lights shining on them.

Now, the same barrel, but lighted with HDRI. HDRI stands for High Dynamic Range Imaging. This means the barrel is lighted by the background picture, just like in real life. Everything in real life reflects light, from the walls of your room to the fingers on your hand. All of light reflected of walls, humans, trees etc, have their own color. So instead of lighting the barrel with 2 yellowish lights, it now get's lighted by the entire environment. As a result:

http://members.home.nl/rgj.post/tontest0001.jpg
(Discard the background pls )

Now, this picture looks far more real than the 1st barrel picture. The reflections are way better. It might not look as pretty as the first picture, since you can barely see the nice bump-mapping used. But it's far more accurate to the real thing.

What im trying to say is that in alot of games and alot of computer art (even movies), special effects are overused. Stuff looks way too pretty. Colors are too bright, reflections too perfect, shadows too dark. So in Forza's (and A LOT of other cases) instead of the lighting making sure the perfect models and textures are as real as possible, it does the opposite and makes it look less realistic. In all the videos and pictures I have seen, I am not convinced Forza looks better.

Ofcourse, this is just my opinion like I stated before, but I felt like giving it anyway

Im sorry if it's a bit hard to understand, since my english is far from perfect. And if anyone needs more explanation or examples, just ask.

[edit] A perfect example: http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/lw-gallery/albums/Transportation/302.jpg

Highly detailed, close to perfect model. But really really bad lighting. Tho there are still some ppl that say: "Whoa look at that, that's really pretty n stuff. Look at those colors!"

Now this is nice: http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/lw-gallery/albums/Transportation/319.jpg

Fairly simple model, yet really convincing lighting 👍

 

[tiptopcream]

Yes Forza doesn't look realistic compared to GT4.

I am only impressed by GT4´s car moddels. The track environment is pretty bad. (Low res textures, blurry)

Those Forza pictures have been photoshopped mate.

GT4 Prologue on my tv which looks miles better than that GT4 capture.

 

[kinigitt]

Those Forza pictures have been photoshopped mate.

GT4 Prologue on my tv which looks miles better than that GT4 capture.

photoshopped.... derrrrrrrrrr.



Anyway, to the guy who posted above you, I completely agree with him. Forza has more ressources but doesn't look as real, and probably never will. The backgrounds, however, are miles ahead of GT4's. Just the demo version of Laguna was much more convincing than GT3's.

 

[Front]

http://xbox.ign.com/articles/582/582014p1.html pt2

This article is about the Drivatar technology that Forza Motorsport will be using and it sounds quite interesting

What's impressive, once you're done with the training, is to observe and test your vehicle. Here, in a mode called Observe and Test, you simply watch your Drivatar race laps as…YOU! It's pretty weird to see how your driving is emulated, mistakes, successes, and all. To take it up a notch, you can Select Head to Head, a mode in which you race against a field of your own Drivatars, or AI that's set to easy, medium and hard difficulty. If you think watching your own Drivatar is weird and tingly, wait until you actually race against a fleet of cars that supposedly drive just like you. It's wild indeed.

Sounds like crazy fun

 

[kinigitt]

http://xbox.ign.com/articles/582/582014p1.html pt2

This article is about the Drivatar technology that Forza Motorsport will be using and it sounds quite interesting



Sounds like crazy fun

sounds like B-spec mode, but actually interesting!

No offense to people that enjoy B-spec mode, I haven't tried it, but it looks boring as hell.

 

[Front]

sounds like B-spec mode, but actually interesting!

No offense to people that enjoy B-spec mode, I haven't tried it, but it looks boring as hell.

It's sounding very impressive I guess dirty or bad drivers need not apply for this drivatar lol

I can just imagine a fleet of cheating bastard drivatars all trying to cut corners and hit each other off track

That would be GT4

Joking

 

[cobragt]

mail, I completely agree man. Lighting is what matters for realistic looking games and right now, gt4 is superior to forza in that. http://www.gamesmediamirror.com/leech_1070_en.html
Just look at gt4 in that link, look at how convincing the light around the track looks, forza doesn't have lighting that realistic looking. Lighting is gt4's advantage over xb racers but if ms can actually get some developers with skill like PD's artists, then gt4 could be blown away.

 

[Front]

mail, I completely agree man. Lighting is what matters for realistic looking games and right now, gt4 is superior to forza in that. http://www.gamesmediamirror.com/leech_1070_en.html
Just look at gt4 in that link, look at how convincing the light around the track looks, forza doesn't have lighting that realistic looking. Lighting is gt4's advantage over xb racers but if ms can actually get some developers with skill like PD's artists, then gt4 could be blown away.

I have no idea how many times you have posted this paticular video but it's been a few I've just downloaded it and it looks good as does most GT4 shots/videos.

The only real videos we have seen of Forza Motorsport have been on Laguna Seca which visually is a barren track but an excellent track, it's certainly not a track to showcase graphical superiority

These recent screenshots from the Beta build and showing Forza Motorsport in a whole new light, the refelctions look much better as doe's the general lighting and shadowing.

I'm waiting until some high quality videos are posted to see what the graphics are REALLY like until then you can go ahead and post your little video all you like because everyone knows Gran Turismo 4 looks superb.

But these recent shots from Forza have a certain polish that was not there before and please remember this is a beta and not the finished article like Gran Turismo 4 .

is it just me or did the car backfire too much.

 

[Maven]

Sheeesh!! C'mon guys, just because your other thread got shuffled off to its proper place doesn't mean you have to dig this one up!

 

[Dave A]

People want to compare GT4 to Forza, so let them do it here it's the only thread in this section on it.

 

[kinigitt]

Sheeesh!! C'mon guys, just because your other thread got shuffled off to its proper place doesn't mean you have to dig this one up!

maybe this one will get properly sifted as well. It could be a blessing in disguise that somebody brought it up.

 

[Dave A]

Only this thread is clearly about comparing GT4 to Forza, so this is it's proper place.

 

[kinigitt]

Only this thread is clearly about comparing GT4 to Forza, so this is it's proper place.

righto.

 

[cobragt]

Dont care if forza isn't finished. It has great visuals but the game just doesn't look realistic.

 

[kinigitt]

Dont care if forza isn't finished. It has great visuals but the game just doesn't look realistic.

we heard you the first 600 times, and I don't see anybody challenging that either, so let it go.

 

[MailMan]

I have no idea how many times you have posted this paticular video but it's been a few I've just downloaded it and it looks good as does most GT4 shots/videos.

These recent screenshots from the Beta build and showing Forza Motorsport in a whole new light, the refelctions look much better as doe's the general lighting and shadowing.

I'm waiting until some high quality videos are posted to see what the graphics are REALLY like until then you can go ahead and post your little video all you like because everyone knows Gran Turismo 4 looks superb.

But these recent shots from Forza have a certain polish that was not there before and please remember this is a beta and not the finished article like Gran Turismo 4 .

If im right this is a pretty recent screenshot

That reflection on the top of the car looks like alot of eyecandy, but infact it's really really wrong. Noway a reflection on a car is that bright, or shines that much in real life. The only way the car could look like that in real life, would be to paint the bottom part of the car black and the upper part white .
Im not at all dissing how Forza looks, im just looking at the screenshots and giving my opinion compared to GT4. GT4's reflection is far from perfect, yet closer to the real thing.

It's just that when you see a moving vehicle, it's so important you get the reflections at least a bit right to give an idea of speed, depth and realism. GT3 does this pretty damn nice, I haven't seen any pc game surpas it and I have played a few

And I don't believe you need a very high detailed video to judge if the reflections are off or on the spot, at least I don't

I agree that Forza's tracks look more detailed, yet they do have that "unrealistic" look on it...

 

[Dave A]

Actually the reflections on my mums Clio which is a similar colour can get that bright.

 

[Front]

If im right this is a pretty recent screenshot

That reflection on the top of the car looks like alot of eyecandy, but infact it's really really wrong. Noway a reflection on a car is that bright, or shines that much in real life. The only way the car could look like that in real life, would be to paint the bottom part of the car black and the upper part white .
Im not at all dissing how Forza looks, im just looking at the screenshots and giving my opinion compared to GT4. GT4's reflection is far from perfect, yet closer to the real thing.

Is just that when you see a moving vehicle, it's so important you get the reflections at least a bit right to give an idea of speed, depth and realism. GT3 does this pretty damn nice, I haven't seen any pc game surpas it and I have played a few

And I don't believe you need a very high detailed video to judge if the reflections are of or on the spot, at least I don't

I agree that Forza's tracks look more detailed, yet they do have that "unrealistic" look on it...

These screenshots are Xbox frame dumps from the XBox dev kit, which does not represent the final result on say a HDTV.

So i'd sit tight and wait for some proper screenshots until then it's all speculation but from these shots they look as if they have addressed quite a few of the issues concerning the earlier sceenshots.

mainly: lighting, shadowing & Reflections

which is very encouraging

 

[MailMan]

These screenshots are Xbox frame dumps from the XBox dev kit, which does not represent the final result on say a HDTV.

So i'd sit tight and wait for some proper screenshots until then it's all speculation but from these shots they look as if they have addressed quite a few of the issues concerning the earlier sceenshots.

mainly: lighting, shadowing & Reflections

which is very encouraging

How's any HDTV gonna improve reflections?
Other than higher resolutions and maybe a bit better display of color, virtually everything stays the same.
I do agree Forza's looking better than before, just saying they could do alot better.

 

[Front]

How's any HDTV gonna improve reflections?
Other than higher resolutions and maybe a bit better display of color, virtually everything stays the same.
I do agree Forza's looking better than before, just saying they could do alot better.

I never said HDTV would improve the refelctions I said

they look as if they have addressed quite a few of the issues concerning the earlier sceenshots.

http://www.the-magicbox.com/0501/forza30.jpg


These new screenshots are XBox frame dumps which is no where near what it will look on a regular TV or HDTV. But it does look like they have improved the reflections in my opinion i'll wait for better screenshots until I make judgement.

 

[MailMan]

Actually the reflections on my mums Clio which is a similar colour can get that bright.

Im sorry but I seriously doubt that, why? Because reflections don't make a surface look more bright, they actually make surfaces look more dark. A reflection can only be bright white if a source as powerfull as the sun shines on it, and the sun alone won't brighten up the roof of a car like that. The roof should have looked like this: http://weareacamera.ilovegames.co.uk/data/5845.jpg

@Front: Sorry, I missinterpreted (sp?) your reply. Tho when comparing screenshots between GT4 and Forza im not comparing the resolution or texture detail, purely the reflections atm.
Btw, that screenshot isn't working for me.

 

[Dave A]

Yaeh, and the Clio shines bright like that when the sun is shining on it, that pic you posted was an overcast day, then again the pic of Forza looks like an overcast day, but the fact remains a cars hood and roof can shine that bright if it's a dark enough colour, it might not be right in the game given thoes conditions but all I said is it can shine like that.

 

[MailMan]

Yaeh, and the Clio shines bright like that when the sun is shining on it, that pic you posted was an overcast day, then again the pic of Forza looks like an overcast day, but the fact remains a cars hood and roof can shine that bright if it's a dark enough colour.

You say the "fact" remains... please show me on what kind of information you base that fact, because now I can only see this as your opinion.
I must add that when comparing pictures taken with a camera you should understand that you can't directly compare them with real life. Since camera's have a diafragma and shutter-time, colors will not look like real life most of the time.

 

[Dave A]

Btw, that screenshot isn't working for me.

I can't see it either.

 

[Dave A]

You say the "fact" remains... please show me on what kind of information you base that fact, because now I can only see this is your opinion.

The fact is during the odd clear and sunny day we have over here, my mums Clio shines quite bright. Then again I may be remebering it being brighter than it was, but it does reflect the sun quite a lot.

 

[MailMan]

The fact is during the odd clear and sunny day we have over here, my mums Clio shines quite bright. Then again I may be remebering it being brighter than it was, but it does reflect the sun quite a lot.

Ofcourse it reflects the sun quite a lot But a reflection of the sun will be fairly small, unless the sun is shining in at a very very low angle. Just like driving early at the morning or late at night, when it's sometimes very hard to see ahead, since the road is reflecting the sunlight in your eyes.

The hoods and roofs of forza's car are reflecting the sky and the sky isn't that bright at all, it's blueish. More like the GT4 screenshots posted a few pages ago.

added example, DTM Race driver 2 screenshot: http://www.mega-gaming.com/script/cms/gallerie/dtm2pc5.jpg

Way way to bright im sorry to say How can the roof of a car ever look brighter than the sky it's reflecting? That's impossible under normal circumstances.
The only thing that reflects light so hard is a mirror and even then, you can only equall the brightness of the sky not surpas it.

 

[McLaren]

Dont care if forza isn't finished. It has great visuals but the game just doesn't look realistic.

Like I said, comparing an acorn nut to an acorn tree.

 

[DevilGTx]

Shadows of the nature shown in the screenshot CAN exist.
If you are seeing a reflection of some clouds, especially on a dark/black car, the color of the car will not be apparent, but thecolor of the cloud would be. If it is a reflection of empty blue sky, even the blueness of the sky probably will not be apparent.

Really, it is impossible to tell from just a still shot.
If we could see that same shot in a moving vid, it might look pretty good.

(EDIT)
Basically, it is impossible to tell the color of the reflector just by looking at the reflection.