GT4 vs Forza [Let the battle begin]

[Chris1990]

I agree with you Swift. I often play 2 players with my brother on racing games with damage. He gets so involved with damage and crashing while I get on with it.
Guess who wins and who ends up not finishing the first lap?

 

[Dave A]

Again, if I want to smash cars, I'll got to burnout. Sims are supposed to be about racing or drifting. Smashing cars doesn't fit into either of those categories. However, if you can "total" your car because of lack of control, that is certainly a good thing.

It's not always about wanting to smash your car, it's about simulating motorsport, in motorsport crashes happen and cars get smashed, broken and totalled. As a result, cars in Forza get smashed, broken and totalled much like in Toca RD2.

 

[kinigitt]

It's not always about wanting to smash your car, it's about simulating motorsport, in motorsport crashes happen and cars get smashed, broken and totalled. As a result, cars in Forza get smashed, broken and totalled much like in Toca RD2.

hmmm...I'm noticing a pattern here. Every racing game I can think of that was released last year except ONE had some form of damage incorporated.

some have very good damage models (CMR2005, though I dislike the "central-axis" floaty physics.)

it's not a gimmick, it's a part of racing.

p.s. anybody know what car this is? I think it's a Callaway, but I'm not sure.

http://media.xbox.ign.com/media/682/682857/img_2573999.html

 

[Swift]

I agree with you Swift. I often play 2 players with my brother on racing games with damage. He gets so involved with damage and crashing while I get on with it.
Guess who wins and who ends up not finishing the first lap?

Thanx

It's not always about wanting to smash your car, it's about simulating motorsport, in motorsport crashes happen and cars get smashed, broken and totalled. As a result, cars in Forza get smashed, broken and totalled much like in Toca RD2.

Here's the challenge my friend. What constitutes totalled? We all know that if you slam into a wall or a car at 120mph you're done. But what about all the gray areas? What happens at 35mph when you graze the wall or another car? how severe is it? What systems are effected? I think you see where I'm going with this. Damage is a part of motorsport and should be incorporated in some way, I agree. I especially like the fact you can total the car. But how to you rate the damage level for all the fender benders and what not. That's my main concern. It's a sim, so it should be close to real life. But not all cars are made of the same material, react the same at collision, etc.... That's what I'm saying.

hmmm...I'm noticing a pattern here. Every racing game I can think of that was released last year except ONE had some form of damage incorporated.

kinigitt could you list some of those games please? I'd like to try them out to see what kind of progress they've been making. Thanks

 

[Symtex]

Some people prefer the OS, and they whole apple thing too I guess

It's an old myth that Mac computer are only good for video / photoshop thingy. I tend to disagree. It's funny to see all the anti-microsoft on these board but they all running Windows XP on their machine. Way to go champ....

As far as Forza, It will be a good title. There is no doubt about that. Forza drivers differently and it's not GT. Thank God for it. We didn't need a GT Clone but a brand new experience.

 

[Swift]

It's an old myth that Mac computer are only good for video / photoshop thingy. I tend to disagree. It's funny to see all the anti-microsoft on these board but they all running Windows XP on their machine. Way to go champ....

As far as Forza, It will be a good title. There is no doubt about that. Forza drivers differently and it's not GT. Thank God for it. We didn't need a GT Clone but a brand new experience.

Hmm...Well, I look at the Mac thing this way. They do media SO much better then a PC that it's not funny. However, if you never plan on getting into the graphic design side of things, I really can't see a practical reason to spend the extra money.

Yep, Forza will be at the very least decent. I just hope it's fun as well!

 

[kinigitt]

Hmm...Well, I look at the Mac thing this way. They do media SO much better then a PC that it's not funny. However, if you never plan on getting into the graphic design side of things, I really can't see a practical reason to spend the extra money.

Yep, Forza will be at the very least decent. I just hope it's fun as well!

they have better security, they're easier to operate, they have neat design features, and they get you a certain snob appeal because they look so spiffy.

and about racing games that incorporated damage:

Rallisport challenge 2
GTR
RBR
Xpand Rally
Colin Mcrae 2005
ProRace Driver 2 (toca 2)
Burnout 3
Test Drive: Eve of destruction
Flatout
Indycar series
Nascar 2005: chase for the cup
dstruction derby arenas (avoid at all costs)
more than I can remember.

oh yeah, I was exagerating when I said only 1 game that came out with no damage. NFS:U 2 and SRS didn't have damage. NFS Hot pursuit 2 had damage though.

 

[Maven]

Code_kev : it's almost useless to even debate anymore. Their mind has been set and nothing is going to change it. The anti-microsoft crowd will never like an xbox game no matter how good it is.

Heh, well, it's kinda like Forza fans who will never admit that Forza has any flaws at all. Personally, I will be willing to state that Forza will be a better game than GT4 solely on the aspect that it has a more balanced carlist. Hopefully, PD will notice that.

I would think that even the staunchest Forza fan would admit that these latest pictures are a bit underwhelming. The Ferrari from the 'sparks' picture looks like it was made out of clay. However, I have seen some outstanding visuals from Forza, so hopefully in the finished game, it will have a consistently high level of graphics.

So, Symtex and Code_kev, is there anything that you don't like about Forza?

 

[kinigitt]

Heh, well, it's kinda like Forza fans who will never admit that Forza has any flaws at all. Personally, I will be willing to state that Forza will be a better game than GT4 solely on the aspect that it has a more balanced carlist. Hopefully, PD will notice that.

I would think that even the staunchest Forza fan would admit that these latest pictures are a bit underwhelming. The Ferrari from the 'sparks' picture looks like it was made out of clay. However, I have seen some outstanding visuals from Forza, so hopefully in the finished game, it will have a consistently high level of graphics.

So, Symtex and Code_kev, is there anything that you don't like about Forza?

the graphics look stunning in motion, when the framerate can keep up.

just like PGR2, screens make the game look terrible. GT is the opposite; it looks better in screens than in motion.

GT4 has a startlingly low level of detail on the car models, but they look better than Forza's in all screenshots. In fact, Enthusia seems to have more detailed 3d models, but people critisise the graphics to no end because the textures aren't as sharp as GT's. These are the same people that say (namely about forza) that hi res textures and more polygons don't mean a thing. Go figure.

 

[_aj]

As far as Forza, It will be a good title. There is no doubt about that. Forza drivers differently and it's not GT. Thank God for it. We didn't need a GT Clone but a brand new experience.

Well said mate. Something that is different from GT but should already be in GT and hopefully Forza and other games will make PD and Sony see this too.

 

[Chris1990]

The problem with incorporating damage is it has to be done well, and I mean very well. It has to remain realistic. If GT4 had damage but it didn't look life-like, you'd be the first people to complain. It is very difficult to accurately show damage to all of the many parts on a car at different speeds and in different scenarios etc. And if you think about the number of cars in GT4 and the number of destructible parts on each car, that's a lot of work.

(by the way "you" is a collective you for people who whine about lack of damage)

 

[cobragt]

No, gt4 looks better in motion than screens. any game looks better in motion.

 

[kinigitt]

No, gt4 looks better in motion than screens. any game looks better in motion.

gt4 looks better in the photomode pics posted (photo-travel, not the replay photos; they look exactly like the gameplay). Almost picture-perfect.

watching vids, you notice the blurry backgrounds more, the lack of realtime shadowing, the wierd reflections on the cars, and the plethora of jaggies.

 

[Dave A]

I can in fact confirm that 90% of the GT4 pics out there look better than GT4 does in motion. Not that GT4 looks bad at all, it looks great but the use of photomode (photodrive and travel) has distorted many peoples perspective of what GT4's graphics are really like.

 

[cobragt]

Jaggies really aren't a prob now, that 1080i should work things out but I dont awe to pm pics because I know the deal. Instead, I'm more amazed by vids I see. But you can see the lack of real time shadowing in pm pics =| pm doesn't make textures clearer, pm filter outs jags and makes the image huge. Do you honestly believe vids online are perfect representation of how clear the game looks? sven, a member here suggests gt4 looks as bright and clear as the pm pics but shimmering and jaggies are of course present. Hell, in 1080i, the ingame display will be at a bigger res.

 

[Dave A]

1080 doesn't do much to the graphics Cobra, it improves them it doesn't make them a whole level better. As for the photomode, you'll find the car models and textures are higher res and higher in detail than in the races, in photodrive the screen is anti-aliased and has the jaggies removed.

 

[kinigitt]

Jaggies really aren't a prob now, that 1080i should work things out but I dont awe to pm pics because I know the deal. Instead, I'm more amazed by vids I see. But you can see the lack of real time shadowing in pm pics =| pm doesn't make textures clearer, pm filter outs jags and makes the image huge. Do you honestly believe vids online are perfect representation of how clear the game looks? sven, a member here suggests gt4 looks as bright and clear as the pm pics but shimmering and jaggies are of course present. Hell, in 1080i, the ingame display will be at a bigger res.

the difference between regular 480i and "1080i" in GT4 isn't huge. It's a nice addition, but the jaggies remain. strange that you mention shimmering...that's one thing I haven't seen in GT4 vids.

but the fact is that GT4 looks nicer in the photomode pics, understandably.

Anybody here see the enthusia vids going around? slick stuff. the wheels look so good, animation and model-wise.

 

[cobragt]

the different in 480i and 1080i is big.

 

[Dave A]

No, it's rather small, I play GT4 in 1080 most of the time I'm at my mates. It's better, but it's small, and as Kinigitt said, theres still jaggies too, like kinigitt said, it's a nice addition.

 

[Cosmic]

Image is posted bt 1twojay

You can see the difference now...

 

[Gek54]

I just found this GT3 VS. Forza video, sorry if old:

http://home.comcast.net/~leftturney/Forza_Motorsport_Differences.avi

I am really amazed by how much better the sound is in Forza.

 

[Dave A]

Yep and it's not that big a difference, and when it's seen runnni on a 28 inch TV the difference is even less than in thoes two small pics.

 

[Dave A]

I just found this GT3 VS. Forza video, sorry if old:

http://home.comcast.net/~leftturney/Forza_Motorsport_Differences.avi

I am really amazed by how much better the sound is in Forza.

I don'tknow who made that vid but it's a stupid comparison, it highlights Forza's good points while desperately trying to make GT3 look bad. But I do agree, Forza does have far, far better engine sounds than GT.

 

[Gek54]

I don'tknow who made that vid but it's a stupid comparison, it highlights Forza's good points while desperately trying to make GT3 look bad. But I do agree, Forza does have far, far better engine sounds than GT.

I dont think it was stupid. They show how Forza has better crash physics, sound and didnt waste their time with a bunch of little underpowered milk boxes on wheels. 👍

 

[Swift]

I dont think it was stupid. They show how Forza has better crash physics, sound and didnt waste their time with a bunch of little underpowered milk boxes on wheels. 👍

Man, you were looking so good till that last line.

 

[Gek54]

Am I wrong?

 

[kinigitt]

Am I wrong?

opinions aren't wrong. well...sometimes they are.

that video was in poor taste, that's what he's saying. it wasn't very truthful, it was one-sided and while some of the points were valid, they were presented childishly.

 

[Swift]

Am I wrong?

Yep, you are. There is a tremendous amount of skill to keep speed in underpowered cars. Who can't go fast in a 300+hp Porsche of Ferrari? What can you do in a little 115hp FF car? It's a different level of skills and in some cases, higher.

Also, that video was laughable. It compared a 4 year old game to a brand new one. Yeah, that's fair. He could've at least used a version of GT4 for the comparison. They weren't even the same model vette, so of course they didn't sound the same. (If it was they were modeled VERY differently). The only thing that was legitimate (as it is in GT4) was the crashes, but even those were stupid. Yep, I said it, stupid. Doing 110 mph into a brick wall and the front end it still attached and steering still works? Give me a break. A head on collision at 80mph and both cars aren't instantly totaled to the point where they are hard to recognize...come on! That's just junk.

 

[BlackZ28]

Awesome vid!

 

[kinigitt]

Yep, you are. There is a tremendous amount of skill to keep speed in underpowered cars. Who can't go fast in a 300+hp Porsche of Ferrari? What can you do in a little 115hp FF car? It's a different level of skills and in some cases, higher.

Also, that video was laughable. It compared a 4 year old game to a brand new one. Yeah, that's fair. He could've at least used a version of GT4 for the comparison. They weren't even the same model vette, so of course they didn't sound the same. (If it was they were modeled VERY differently). The only thing that was legitimate (as it is in GT4) was the crashes, but even those were stupid. Yep, I said it, stupid. Doing 110 mph into a brick wall and the front end it still attached and steering still works? Give me a break. A head on collision at 80mph and both cars aren't instantly totaled to the point where they are hard to recognize...come on! That's just junk.

now you're showing your ugly side.

the damage isn't perfect. Granted. It's still much better than the dizzy-effects in GT4, so you really can't bad-mouth it by calling it junk.

The vette's were different models, but the LS2 is an evolution of the LS1, so they should sound similar. And this is another thing people side-step all the time: Gran turismo has BAD engine sounds, BAD exhaust sounds, TERRIBLE transmission sounds.

People still cling to the STUPID (yes, I said STUPID) belief that KY is a perfectionist and that everything in GT has the personal benediction of christ himself. GT4 has major flaws, so does everything. But since it's the benchmark, people put down any other games that try to close in on it, like it's a goddamn loyalty to one's country, or religion, or anything else that turns people into blathering idiots. I'm sick of it.