- 15,855
- QLD, Australia
- Small_Fryz
DittoCFMReduce the rear toe setting and you'll probably find getting clean laps will be a bit easier...if not I'll give you your money back.
GT4 WRS Week 27: "Formula For Success"
- Thread starter CFM
- 338 comments
- 12,634 views
- 8,191
- Southern Louisiana
- GTP_Kent
Hey all,
and VEXD,
Anyway,
I ran some laps, even put in a full clean race.
Unfortunately I was slower than cold molasses.
But on the better side of things, I've found a few tricks to keeping my car from acting like a top.
First step I've taken has been to leave the settings at "stock" without any aids, then pull the front downforce down a bit.
Then get rid of some rear toe and everything seems to fall into place quite well.
My only problem is getting the car to brake with a bit of drift... I'm thinking some rear-ward bias on the brake balancer is just what I need.
After today I should have more news about that but for now it will suffice to say that I am going to try using "3/4" instead of "3/3" on the brake balancer.
With a bit of work I might get that rear end to swing out a little under braking.
I'll be back later with any updates worth mentioning.
Till then,
-
and VEXD,
Anyway,
I ran some laps, even put in a full clean race.
Unfortunately I was slower than cold molasses.
But on the better side of things, I've found a few tricks to keeping my car from acting like a top.
First step I've taken has been to leave the settings at "stock" without any aids, then pull the front downforce down a bit.
Then get rid of some rear toe and everything seems to fall into place quite well.
My only problem is getting the car to brake with a bit of drift... I'm thinking some rear-ward bias on the brake balancer is just what I need.
After today I should have more news about that but for now it will suffice to say that I am going to try using "3/4" instead of "3/3" on the brake balancer.
With a bit of work I might get that rear end to swing out a little under braking.
I'll be back later with any updates worth mentioning.
Till then,
-
- 703
have been royally screwed by this car so far... haven't managed a clean lap, will take CFM's comments into consideration... i have found that it is also a hell of a lot easier to drive with the aids off... (i tend to lose concentration with them on and crash)... have seen a 10.7 and a 16.8... but no clean laps yet...
- 2,670
- Portland, OR
- GTP_KLR142
I hate how it is in GT4 with toe settings... I could've sworn last week that positive settings for toe were toe out. Made my Jag turn better anyway, or so it appeared when I tried things and that's how I finished the race out, with toe at 4/3. *sigh* Negative toe in RL is usually toe in... Isn't it? I dunno. But thanks CFM, and I'll probably have another go at this, I guess my splits weren't as bad as I thought. I had tried rear toe of 0 too, but I don't think I tried enough with it because I don't remember it handling nicer, we'll see!CFM
- 9,742
- Portland, OR
- Jump_Ace
- JUMPxACE
I'm gonna try no tcs tonite and start in 3rd and see where that gets me. I had my toe angle at -3 last nite and it seemed to do fine, I like timbrad only have one turn to really worry about 
. However I am a whole second behind Fasj on lap 2, but I am faster than him on lap 1 at t2...strange. If there is one thing I HATE/DESPISE about these 2 lap piles of garbage, is that I have no ghost to help judge my speed thru turns!!!
. However I am a whole second behind Fasj on lap 2, but I am faster than him on lap 1 at t2...strange. If there is one thing I HATE/DESPISE about these 2 lap piles of garbage, is that I have no ghost to help judge my speed thru turns!!!
- 1,575
- GTP_T13R
If you look at a car from the top view, toe out would look like this ( a little exaggerated, consider the dotted line as the axle, the slashes being the top view of the rear tires ):
\ ------ /
And toe in would look like this ( again exaggerated ):
/ ------ \
I don't know what negative toe represents, whether it's toe out or toe in, but I know that to help with turning, a slight toe out is good in RL.
\ ------ /
And toe in would look like this ( again exaggerated ):
/ ------ \
I don't know what negative toe represents, whether it's toe out or toe in, but I know that to help with turning, a slight toe out is good in RL.
- 703
what a difference that toe in/out makes... reset it back to 0 and promptly took over 4 seconds off of my previous best...
anywayz some splits to start me off
Lap 1
T1: 17.495
T2: 47.826
Lap 2
T1: 10.830
T2: 40.995
anywayz some splits to start me off
Lap 1
T1: 17.495
T2: 47.826
Lap 2
T1: 10.830
T2: 40.995
- 8,191
- Southern Louisiana
- GTP_Kent
The toe all seems to make sense for me. 
Using T13R's example... (only with the assumption that "toe in" is "negative")
Toe-In on the rear and Toe-Out on the front would mimic 4-wheel turning systems. 👍
I don't think we really need that on this car but all the same, I do think that is how it works in real life as well as the game.
I usually just avoid toe.
Too much mystery behind how handling is affected in the broader sense.
Usually I just leave toe at 0/0 but this week we start with 0/-6.
My first repsonse when I got the F1 was to move it "down" to 0/-2.
At this point I'm running with 0/-3.
(wait, I'm still slow ).
Anyway, y'all keep at it and try taking the advice given by these fast dudes, they know what they are doing.
Later.
Using T13R's example... (only with the assumption that "toe in" is "negative")
Toe-In on the rear and Toe-Out on the front would mimic 4-wheel turning systems. 👍
I don't think we really need that on this car but all the same, I do think that is how it works in real life as well as the game.
I usually just avoid toe.
Too much mystery behind how handling is affected in the broader sense.
Usually I just leave toe at 0/0 but this week we start with 0/-6.
My first repsonse when I got the F1 was to move it "down" to 0/-2.
At this point I'm running with 0/-3.
(wait, I'm still slow ). Anyway, y'all keep at it and try taking the advice given by these fast dudes, they know what they are doing.
Later.
- 1,111
- SHigSpeed
CFMA quick tip for people having trouble with spinning out:
The Formula 1 car is unique in GT4 as it is the only car to come standard with a negative toe setting for the rear wheels. (Wheels pointing away from each other) In fact the stock toe setting is something crazy like -6. This causes the car to turn very fast but it is highly unstable, resulting in spinning out when slowing down under braking. Set the rear toe angle to zero and then try a lap or two, you should notice a big difference. If you want to increase stability even more change it to a positive setting of 1 or 2. Any more than +2 is a waste really however. Once you get a feel for how this setting works, find the happy medium where the car acts repsonsively but is not out of control, you should be a happy camper. You can do the same for the fronts also. It is a useful setting to remember for all cars to adjust how easily each end of a car turns into the corners. After that, only a cuople dozen more settings to play with and adjust and you'll be golden.
Odd... According to this thread: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=56694, toe out is positive, in is negative... Which would make sense on this car as you'd want mega toe in for high speed turning stability.
This is another setting which has confounded me in the past like the "reversed" spring rates. Please, PLEASE someone clarify!!! :^)
-Scott
- 1,575
- GTP_T13R
According to this thread though, https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=948453&postcount=12, Toe out is negative, and toe in is positive, which actually makes sense since toe out brings about oversteer, and toe in brings about understeer ( on the rear wheels ). And in GT3 I used to often run -0.5 or -1.0 toe out to make turning easier.
Link is from no other than Duke himself taken from the OLRacing sub-forum.
Link is from no other than Duke himself taken from the OLRacing sub-forum.
- 2,756
- Carlisle,Cumbria,England!
- Ballstothewall1
Splits from me just to get on the board
16.881
47.455
11.151
41.132
mystery is i can run mid 1'13 's in Free run mode with the settings i'm using, but not in the cup.
Tyres are not getting warmed up till half-way through the second lap, therefor it's understeering on the power mid corner.
And i still can't get the first sector (1st corner) right, hense my pathetic T1's
EDIT
Just had a look at the board, and maybe i'm not doing as bad as i thought. For now that is!
Laters
Neil
16.881
47.455
11.151
41.132
mystery is i can run mid 1'13 's in Free run mode with the settings i'm using, but not in the cup.
Tyres are not getting warmed up till half-way through the second lap, therefor it's understeering on the power mid corner.
And i still can't get the first sector (1st corner) right, hense my pathetic T1's
EDIT
Just had a look at the board, and maybe i'm not doing as bad as i thought. For now that is!
Laters
Neil
MagpieRacer
Premium
- 17,444
- Wymondham, Norfolk
- Seagull_Racer
Ok, not my month, first GT4 broke, and now, MY ****ING PS2 BROKE! I wanna hit someone....or something..
- 1,111
- SHigSpeed
T13R
True that, but he was posting about toe in GT3 if I read it correctly. In GT4, things may have changed, and since a JDM version of GT4 apparently has a clearer explanation as reported in my originally referenced thread (which due to that clarification said that toe in was negative), Duke's comments may not apply. Of course if the JDM vs. domestic (US) versions of the game are coded differently when it comes to alignment specs, then all bets are off.
I'll have to go to the Gymkhana course tonight and play with toe to verify for myself one way or the other.
heh... maybe I should be racing, but who'se to say? :^)
-SHig
- 8,191
- Southern Louisiana
- GTP_Kent
I think part of the "Toe Question" is dependant on which set of wheels you are discussing.
Just a guess, but I think front and rear wheels probably react differently to - and + settings.
I say that because of how 4-wheel-steering systems work... That being front wheels angled out ward ( \====/ ) and rear wheels angled inward ( /====\ ).
Of course, I could be wrong, but that makes sense to me.
Just a guess, but I think front and rear wheels probably react differently to - and + settings.
I say that because of how 4-wheel-steering systems work... That being front wheels angled out ward ( \====/ ) and rear wheels angled inward ( /====\ ).
Of course, I could be wrong, but that makes sense to me.
- 1,575
- GTP_T13R
Why did PD make this so complicated??? Has anyone spent any time reading what it says at the bottom of the screen when highlighting that part in the settings? Maybe they explain it somewhere in the manual?SHigSpeed
👎 PD, very unclear.
A nice link with nice pictures to understand toe-in and toe-out and camber ( too bad they don't refer to any of it as negative/positive toe ):
http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html
After having read this article, and the way that the F1 behaves in that right/left corner before T2, I would say that negative toe is the same as toe out. And it is the same in real life, and this is supposed to be the "real driving simulator".
- 996
GTmaniac
yes for sure, the practice mode was just a warmup. 👍
- 8,191
- Southern Louisiana
- GTP_Kent
I still say that toe out and toe in do different things depending on the where you use it (front vs back).
Again I must point to the idea of 4 wheel steering systems.
\-----/
/-----\
That pattern is the ideal for minimizing your turning radius in a 4 wheel steering system.
Not that you all don't know this, I am just trying to re-iterate that point.
I want to support my statement about toe having different affects on front and rear.
With that in mind, negative toe on the rear could create oversteer and positive toe on the front could create oversteer.
Like I've said, I could be wrong.
Question:
Has anyone taken the time to leave the front toe at 0 and put the rear toe at +6?
Let me know how that turns out if you do it... Later tonight after I get home from school I will test it out for myself.
In any case, it seems to me that reducing the negative toe on the rear contributes to reducing oversteer. 👍
However, on a side note...
I don't think the high speed turn in the middle of the back straight is harder to take with toe at any particular setting... I think that turn is all about down force.
Again I must point to the idea of 4 wheel steering systems.
\-----/
/-----\
That pattern is the ideal for minimizing your turning radius in a 4 wheel steering system.
Not that you all don't know this, I am just trying to re-iterate that point.
I want to support my statement about toe having different affects on front and rear.
With that in mind, negative toe on the rear could create oversteer and positive toe on the front could create oversteer.
Like I've said, I could be wrong.
Question:
Has anyone taken the time to leave the front toe at 0 and put the rear toe at +6?
Let me know how that turns out if you do it... Later tonight after I get home from school I will test it out for myself.
In any case, it seems to me that reducing the negative toe on the rear contributes to reducing oversteer. 👍
However, on a side note...
I don't think the high speed turn in the middle of the back straight is harder to take with toe at any particular setting... I think that turn is all about down force.
- 2,342
- Camboriu - Braz
- FASJ6418
CFMA quick tip for people having trouble with spinning out:
The Formula 1 car is unique in GT4 as it is the only car to come standard with a negative toe setting for the rear wheels. (Wheels pointing away from each other) In fact the stock toe setting is something crazy like -6. This causes the car to turn very fast but it is highly unstable, resulting in spinning out when slowing down under braking. Set the rear toe angle to zero and then try a lap or two, you should notice a big difference. If you want to increase stability even more change it to a positive setting of 1 or 2. Any more than +2 is a waste really however. Once you get a feel for how this setting works, find the happy medium where the car acts repsonsively but is not out of control, you should be a happy camper. You can do the same for the fronts also. It is a useful setting to remember for all cars to adjust how easily each end of a car turns into the corners. After that, only a cuople dozen more settings to play with and adjust and you'll be golden.
oh no, beat me to the post... i was goingo to give this present, but you were faster than me...
next time i´ll post something very good...
really, this toe at -6 is crazy...
- 2,342
- Camboriu - Braz
- FASJ6418
jump_aceI'm gonna try no tcs tonite and start in 3rd and see where that gets me. I had my toe angle at -3 last nite and it seemed to do fine, I like timbrad only have one turn to really worry about
well, i see... i really screw up my first lap, should be a 45 high, but i was doing so well that i want to put a split just to do well in the leaderboard...
my goals for the week are 45 low and 37 high...
wait until veil post his splits, we will be chasing him i´m sure...
but it is a great week, now to the fine tunning, i´ll post new splits today...
(sorry for the double post, i don´t know how to double quote)
- 616
Interesting discussion on toe guys! 👍
If I may, my 2 cents.
I think it all depends on the perspective of the observer as to what is defined as positive or negative. Some R/L car setups are based on the observer outside of the the car, facing the car from the front to the rear. Some are from the driving position. But usually the toe in R/L cars is referenced just as in GT using + and - in thousandths of an inch, or tenths of a millimeter of adjustment on the toe plate.
I believe that GT3/GT4 is based on the perspective of the observer in the driving position, facing the front of the car.
So:
+ or positive toe = \-----/
- or negative toe = /-----\
as viewed from the driver's position.
As I have always understood it, for a MR car, you want neutral or 0 toe in the front and slightly negative toe in the rear to reduce oversteer. BUT, the effect is that the car does not exit turns as quickly, and tire wear/scrub is increased.
That is why in my setup so far, I have 0 front toe, and a slight positive rear toe. I want to increase my exit speed thru the high speed turns, and don't mind a tiny bit of oversteer. Also with the enormous amount of downforce available on the F1, you can dial out some oversteer instability.
I also feel strongly that toe should not be used as the primary control of understeer or oversteer. That should be done with shocks, springs, and stab bars. Toe should be just a minor tweak at best, and the ideal toe in a perfect world race car would be, l----l front and back.
So I didn't view my changes to toe as affecting the stability of the car in the chicane just before T2. Instead, I felt that backing off a few clicks on the front wing reduced the front end loading, and allowed the front wheels to be less "grippy".
But as Kent put it so eloquently.........I could be wrong.
If I may, my 2 cents.
I think it all depends on the perspective of the observer as to what is defined as positive or negative. Some R/L car setups are based on the observer outside of the the car, facing the car from the front to the rear. Some are from the driving position. But usually the toe in R/L cars is referenced just as in GT using + and - in thousandths of an inch, or tenths of a millimeter of adjustment on the toe plate.
I believe that GT3/GT4 is based on the perspective of the observer in the driving position, facing the front of the car.
So:
+ or positive toe = \-----/
- or negative toe = /-----\
as viewed from the driver's position.
As I have always understood it, for a MR car, you want neutral or 0 toe in the front and slightly negative toe in the rear to reduce oversteer. BUT, the effect is that the car does not exit turns as quickly, and tire wear/scrub is increased.
That is why in my setup so far, I have 0 front toe, and a slight positive rear toe. I want to increase my exit speed thru the high speed turns, and don't mind a tiny bit of oversteer. Also with the enormous amount of downforce available on the F1, you can dial out some oversteer instability.
I also feel strongly that toe should not be used as the primary control of understeer or oversteer. That should be done with shocks, springs, and stab bars. Toe should be just a minor tweak at best, and the ideal toe in a perfect world race car would be, l----l front and back.
So I didn't view my changes to toe as affecting the stability of the car in the chicane just before T2. Instead, I felt that backing off a few clicks on the front wing reduced the front end loading, and allowed the front wheels to be less "grippy".
But as Kent put it so eloquently.........I could be wrong.
- 616
KentI still say that toe out and toe in do different things depending on the where you use it (front vs back).
Again I must point to the idea of 4 wheel steering systems.
\-----/
/-----\
That pattern is the ideal for minimizing your turning radius in a 4 wheel steering system.
Not that you all don't know this, I am just trying to re-iterate that point.
I want to support my statement about toe having different affects on front and rear.
With that in mind, negative toe on the rear could create oversteer and positive toe on the front could create oversteer.
Like I've said, I could be wrong.
Kent, my VERY limited understanding of 4 wheel steering in modern SUV's is that the front and rear wheels can only steer in 2 configurations.
Slow speed mode-
\-----\
/-----/
front and rear turn in opposite direction.
and
High speed mode-
\-----\
\-----\
where front and rear turn in the same direction.
So wheels on the same axle cannot turn opposite of one another as in your illustration.
\-----/
/-----\
I apologize if I am missing your point.
But you are absolutely correct in that toe in front and rear do different things. Toe also affects the vehicle differently depending on layout and configuration, i.e. FF, FR, MR, 4WD. What works for the F1 is definitely not going to work for a 500 HP Neon!
- 1,347
- The Netherlands
- GTP_Undutchable
@ Minorshunt: The wheels don't turn in the opposite direction. Kent just visualized which direction the wheels are pointing when you drive in a straight line. Of course the angle isn't that dramatically, but a slight adjustment can have a huge influence on the handling. Tyre wear will increase when you let the wheels point to the inside/outside, but stability/agility will increase too. It's up to you to find out what works best for you.
I hope this cleared things up for you
I hope this cleared things up for you
- 2,756
- Carlisle,Cumbria,England!
- Ballstothewall1
On top of this discusion about toe angles, you also have to remember that the figures are the TOTAL angle differential between that wheels!
I.E. a toe-in angle of 2 ( front wheels / \ ) is only a change of 1 degree per wheel.
Neil
I.E. a toe-in angle of 2 ( front wheels / \ ) is only a change of 1 degree per wheel.
Neil
