GT5 Article

[Solid Lifters]

Peter Lyon's column

Peter Lyon plays games with the creator of Gran Turismo
09th October 2006

When I cornered Kazunori Yamauchi, the creator of the Gran Turismo video game, into co-driving with me in his first-ever 'real world' race - a one-hour Mazda MX-5 endurance event - he ummed and aahed for a day or so before giving me a definite "Yeah, why not?!" I guess no one had really asked him before, because he is, in reality, a very good driver. But if I thought that my propositioning was anything special, it pales into insignificance when compared to what Yamauchi has been through.

"GT might never have seen the light of day. What a boring world that would be"


Back in 1997, he asked car makers for permission to include their vehicles in his original Gran Turismo game, only to be turned away with dubious glances. He tells me if it wasn't for visionary companies such as Aston Martin, which allowed him to use its cars to make that first pilot version, then who knows...? GT might never have seen the light of day. What a boring world that would be.

And now, nine years on, Yamauchi has become a true industry heavyweight, admired and idolised by millions of gamers all over the globe. For this perfectionist, nothing was ever good enough. He strove to make the game as real as possible, and each generation got better and better.

When a World Rally Championship star such as Sebastien Loeb uses GT4 to learn the famed Sarthe circuit at Le Mans, and qualify for the actual 2005 event thanks to several hours in front of a console, I think you can say Yamauchi has succeeded. But the man himself is still not satisfied. "The best is yet to come. And it will all be done online," he says. After a sneak preview of his all-new Gran Turismo HD (High Definition) - a prelude to GT5 - at the Tokyo Game Show a couple of weeks ago, I see what he means. GT HD's clarity, impact and visual fidelity are simply mind-boggling.

Online, of course, means you'll be able to play anyone, anywhere, making it the world's first true global game. Based on Sony's new PlayStation3 platform, the new GT HD will be pushing 12 times the amount of information the current Gran Turismo 4 handles on the PS2. And because of the detail, each car takes a lot longer to program - in fact, around six months each! That's why he's split the game in two; there are Premium and Classic versions, with the former featuring only 30 cars and two tracks. You download vehicles, parts and circuits when they become available, later on.

And that's the beauty of the game. New items will be offered online every so often, keeping GT up-to-date forever! In yet another coup, Yamauchi beamed as he revealed a deal had finally been struck with Ferrari, on the same day Michael Schumacher won the Italian GP at Monza. That's the power of this guy and his creation. At first, no one would go near him. Now, no one can ignore him.

So, how did he do in his first race? As expected, having done more than 2,000 virtual laps of Tsukuba Circuit, Yamauchi needed only a dozen laps of 'real world' driving before he was posting identical times to me. And I've been circling that same track on and off for five years!

But then Kaz was only a second off Loeb's Sarthe lap time when they battled it out at GT's Tokyo HQ recently. This is the brilliance that goes into creating the game. Just don't be surprised to see Yamauchi's name, or Loeb's or Schumacher's, popping up online, challenging all-comers to a couple of hot laps.

Peter Lyon is Japan editor of Auto Express and writes for a number of influential titles worldwide

 

[Cobra_UK]

1 car takes 6 months to create? That's either a lie or completely crazy.

It would be lazy even if only 1 developer worked on 1 car. It's pathetic that after waiting more than 4 years for GT4, GT5 may be 4 years after. But, at 6 months per car it won't have more than a few of cars. After so many promises for GT4 (online for example) that never came true, constantly changing franchise strategies (GTHD first demo, now beta which we actually have to pay for) and ignorance of GT fans wishes I'm starting to think KY is a con man. A very good con man, he has thousands under his spell, but I'm not one of them.

GT4 was released in early 2005 and now in late 2006 there is no damage, no improved physics or AI, no skid marks, car flipping and just one of the trio people have been asking for (Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche). Preposterous money making schemes selling demos (GT4 Prologue/Beta), now re-selling GT4 content online at shocking prices for PS3, trying to also sell at full price GTHD (Premium/GT5 Beta). It's funny.

I also love the way it went from 2007 release date to 2008, 2009 is not out of the question. I love the way it went from GT5 being 100 times better than GT4 to 12 times. I love the way it went from having incredible and most realistic damage in a driving game in GT5 to "aiming" for damage in GT5 (as in-it may not happen).

A clever developer, and genius and perfectionist, as apparently KY is, would have made super detailed and high polygon versions of the cars in the GT games and then scaled them down to what the respective console can handle. But apparently these cars are re-modelled every time, this time it will take 6 month per car. I guess by GT6 it will take a year per car, oh joy.

 

[Pebb]

1 car takes 6 months to create? That's either a lie or completely crazy.

It would be lazy even if only 1 developer worked on 1 car. It's pathetic that after waiting more than 4 years for GT4, GT5 may be 4 years after. But, at 6 months per car it won't have more than a few of cars. After so many promises for GT4 (online for example) that never came true, constantly changing franchise strategies (GTHD first demo, now beta which we actually have to pay for) and ignorance of GT fans wishes I'm starting to think KY is a con man. A very good con man, he has thousands under his spell, but I'm not one of them.

GT4 was released in early 2005 and now in late 2006 there is no damage, no improved physics or AI, no skid marks, car flipping and just one of the trio people have been asking for (Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche). Preposterous money making schemes selling demos (GT4 Prologue/Beta), now re-selling GT4 content online at shocking prices for PS3, trying to also sell at full price GTHD (Premium/GT5 Beta). It's funny.

I also love the way it went from 2007 release date to 2008, 2009 is not out of the question. I love the way it went from GT5 being 100 times better than GT4 to 12 times. I love the way it went from having incredible and most realistic damage in a driving game in GT5 to "aiming" for damage in GT5 (as in-it may not happen).

A clever developer, and genius and perfectionist, as apparently KY is, would have made super detailed and high polygon versions of the cars in the GT games and then scaled them down to what the respective console can handle. But apparently these cars are re-modelled every time, this time it will take 6 month per car. I guess by GT6 it will take a year per car, oh joy.

The whole 6 months thing is not crazy, but I reckon the 6 months thing is true. Also you got to remember there team has grown ever since GT1, which is why the cars have so many polygons.

 

[Cobra_UK]

The whole 6 months thing is not crazy, because that’s they have a big team.

I'm not trying to be funny or anything, but your post makes no sense to me.

 

[Pebb]

I'm not trying to be funny or anything, but your post makes no sense to me.

I have edited it now, but sorry about that.

 

[Famine]

It means 6 man-months - it would take 1 man 6 months to model one car. With 6 men it's one month. With 60 men it'd be 3 days.

Put a woman in there though and all bets are off, as they'll spend 3 days each trying to impress her instead.

 

[Cobra_UK]

Put a woman in there though and all bets are off, as they'll spend 3 days each trying to impress her instead.

Haha, so true.

But listen, seriously. There are such things as 3D laser scanning, a lot of software that makes the modelling time a lot shorter and shaders that reduce the need for very intricate polygon modelling. This makes the whole process much quicker than 10 years ago. 10 years ago I modelled a whole Star Wars imperial fleet comprising of over 30 objects, made an animation that lasted over 14 minutes in 6 episodes and all of this on an Amiga 060 70Mhz. Don't want to gloat or anything but it rivalled the rendered intros to the X-Wing games and sequels. That took me less than 4 months. And I'm no big talent, plus I was only doing it in my spare time. Put that into perspective and one car, interior or not, in 6 months is fishy.

Also, there is no way PD could afford something like 60 professional modellers in it's team just on cars, with many more things to worry about. Some quick loose maths would make 300 cars in GT5, which is released after 4 years of development, with 100 modellers (there will be other things to models apart from cars) equal over 20 million £. That's just modellers. Add coders, sound department, physics department, AI department, PR, production and testing (I know that wont's cost much as there can't be many of theseGT4).

EDIT: Here is another perspective, when PGR3 was in development, it's car models were far more detailed than GT4 car models, yet they were about 2 weeks man hours modelling as stated by the lead developer. The PGR3 cars have a lot of polygons. An experienced developing team responsible for so many GT games, will take more than 10 times longer to model the cars, apparently. It sounds crazy to me...

 

[cudadude2]

its not just how the cars looks, they have to do all th performence peramiters, and then redo them for each power and handling mod. they have to do engine sounds and acceleration changed for each mod, there is more to cars than bodywork

b

 

[Cobra_UK]

its not just how the cars looks, they have to do all the performance perimeters, and then re-do them for each power and handling mod. They have to do engine sounds and acceleration change for each mod, there is more to cars than bodywork.

b

Yes you’re perfectly right. I'm fully aware of that fact. I just concentrated on modelling because Famine mentioned it. So we were just going on that tangent… This whole process still only took 2 weeks for PGR3 so why does it take more than 10 times longer for GT5? Is it just me or does that sound a bit extreme.

EDIT: I like your sig cudadude2.

 

[cudadude2]

.

EDIT: I like your sig cudadude2.[/QUOTE]

i forgot who wrote that, its from this board, but i didnt have enough room for the byline, was that you by chance?

b

 

[Cobra_UK]

EDIT: I like your sig cudadude2.

I forgot who wrote that, it's from this board, but i didn't have enough room for the by line, was that you by chance?

b

No, but it's along my lines of thinking.

 

[nathan_walls]

i think the 6 months refers to the entire process of creating a car, including sound, physics, etc., not just the modelling. That might even include the reasearch that PD did. if there are teams working on each car, then they could do several cars at once. 1 modeller, a physics coder or 2 (or 3), etc. per car. Look at GT4's credits to see how many people work on this stuff.

I don't think GT5 will have 700 cars. But if they keep making cars after it's released, then GT6 might. remember GT3 and GT4? I'm sure GT3 cars took longer to make then GT2 cars did, so PD couldn't make 700 cars for the GT3 launch because they didn't know the PS2 specs. When GT3 was released, they went ahead and started making cars to put in GT4. PD didn't have the PS3 specs/development tools, etc. early enough to make hundreds of these highly detailed cars. They had to know what the PS3 could do before they started making the game, and I'm pretty sure they worked on the core game engine and physics before they started modelling the cars. (also, you have to do research before you can model a car with that much detail.)

 

[Cobra_UK]

It sounds to me like you're making excuses. Why should you?

Also, these physics, and things you're referring to are not done either, this late in 2006. Once again NO IMPROVED PHYSICS, NO DAMAGE, NO CAR FLIPPING, NO SKID MARKS, NO DYNAMIC WEATHER, etc. These are "apparently" due to be released slowly over the next 2 years , maybe more.

Don't buy GTHD Premier, you'll be buying into promises, and we all know PD/KY's track record on promises. At least if you wait until GT5 you can make a decision if it's worth your cash or not. Oh, but you can say that you're buying GTHD for GTHD Classic, as in being forced to pay hand over fist for GT4 content you've already paid for.

It's all nice and everything, KY's usual crap, you can buy into it and get all excited or you can look at the real picture, "read between the lines".

 

[JohnBM01]

You can love the GT series or hate the GT series. You still have to admit that it's been a wild nine years (going on ten) for Polyphony Digital and their wonderful franchise. Every GT has had their glaring weaknesses. And for each GT that could have been better according to some people, it's why I'm pushing to bring on threads about what would most impress you about a future GT game. People make a game. People play games. People can make games better for other people to enjoy. The GT series doesn't have to be a crappy game if you just speak up.

My take on the GT4 vs. PGR3 issue is that PGR3 is on a next-gen system, so any comparison between this console of next-gen and the current-gen stuff is almost pointless. I don't think you can fit six cars from PGR3 onto the GT4 game engine and have everything running better. I'm more patient and tolerant of the time it takes modeling a car. I'm not getting a GTHD. So I'm not going to want to wait as long as possible just to have one car being worked on. If anything can speed up the process a bit, maybe have people from other Sony Computer Entertainment groups (for example, SCE Europe and SCE America) pitch in making certain cars. It will mean more people pitching in for making cars in GT, but at least there can be more models to be available for download.

Now on to the article. The most prestigious mark to first grace Gran Turismo was Aston Martin. Most people aren't going to agree with me initially on this, but Aston Martin has had a great deal of racing history. Ferrari, Porsche, and Lamborghini would be nice, but I think it's a great start to get Aston Martin. The GT series always had prestigious marques- just not the ones people keep petitioning for. Jaguar is prestigious as is Mercedes-Benz, Lotus, Audi, BMW, Renault, Alfa Romeo... just to name a few. But NOOOOO... people just look at me stupid and ready to flame me at any moment. Some sad stuff, eh? I think the GT series can only get better. The only letdown was GT2 (and maybe GT3 as well). I don't ask for too much or have expectations. PD has to challenge themselves and not have others make bogus challenges for PD.

It can be two years from now or two months from now... just take your time and get everything done right. Every GT (with the exception of GT Concept(?)) has been a Greatest Hit. GT5 will join that list if this becomes another sensational title. We're all different GT gamers complete with what we want to see and what we consider missing or in the game. I'm more forgiving than most other people. Sure like to see what PD will have planned next.

 

[zonekill]

Yes you’re perfectly right. I'm fully aware of that fact. I just concentrated on modelling because Famine mentioned it. So we were just going on that tangent… This whole process still only took 2 weeks for PGR3 so why does it take more than 10 times longer for GT5? Is it just me or does that sound a bit extreme.

EDIT: I like your sig cudadude2.

Yes, that sounds extreme but don't forget that it's PD : Polyphony Detailed.

No, seriously I played GT1-4 and enjoyed each because it has that certain "it" (if you know what I mean) It looks and feels as if it is made by carlovers. And KY wants it as best as it can get, thats his goal for each game.

I am not a 3d expert or game developer but it if you have the PS3 to develop for and must make a car from the ground-up and trying to make it as realistic as possible with ALL the details visually AND pshyics + maybe damage moddeling, there is a lot to program and tweak before 1 car is ready.

And I agree with you about the promises especially when it comes to release dates. Also GT4P was an unessecary game. And I think came not from KY or PD but from SCEI they want to earn money as everybody does.

I think there where really no new things in GT2 to 4. That's what I am dissapointed about. No online play, damage or "new" gamemodes and ehhh no Ferrari. There where simply more of the great things.

Yeah, The Nordschleife was the reason I bought GT4. And not because of some stupid B-spec or the ability to put a wing on a car or testing at the Las Vegas dragstrip....

...The Drive of Your Life...

 

[Tenacious D]

That was a rather curious rant. I think it, and my responses can be summed up in this misguided part right here:

I love the way it went from GT5 being 100 times better than GT4 to 12 times. I love the way it went from having incredible and most realistic damage in a driving game in GT5 to "aiming" for damage in GT5 (as in-it may not happen).

Kazunori-sama did NOT say it would be 12 times better. He said it had 12 times the information, which is NOT the same thing. Having 12 times the information can translate into an exponentially greater experience. Remember going from the 8 bit NES and Megadrive days to the 16 bit SNES/Genesis era, to the Saturn/PS1 era, to the Dreamcast/PS2/GameCube/XBox era... have you noticed how much greater each generation of games were to the ones before? How much more involving they were?

From the videos I've seen of GT HD, it does indeed look exponentially better. I would be more than happy with "12 times better" than GT4, but 100 times better isn't out of the question. Higher performance physics have already been experienced by game reporters, so I'm anticipating one heck of a drive.

As said, one reason that these cars are taking so long to model is because they're being designed meticulously to be ready for whatever damage system Polyphony implements. On top of that, interiors can just about double the modelling workload per car. That's why car interiors were left off of Forza 2.

By the way, they're "aiming" for damage in GT HD. The 2007 damage patch is their first shot, and there may be others. A.I. updates are already being mentioned in two stages.

In any case, you go buy your "flipping" game and enjoy yourself. No one is going to cry a river if you don't buy a PS3 and GT HD. That will just leave the goodies for someone who really wants it and won't have to miss out, thanks to your sacrifice.

 

[DraggingSlayer]

LOL! It takes less time to make a real car!

 

[MasterGT]

1 car takes 6 months to create? That's either a lie or completely crazy.

It would be lazy even if only 1 developer worked on 1 car. It's pathetic that after waiting more than 4 years for GT4, GT5 may be 4 years after. But, at 6 months per car it won't have more than a few of cars.

I wasn't sure just what to quote, so I cut it back to this, and will add...

It, essentially, took Ford about 10 months to develop the Ford GT, a real car, just as a comparison.

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[greenlightning]

I am going to state my position on the 6 months with this thought. That they are indeed working on the damage details and perhaps many other things for each car. What if they are actually making race mods for most cars also and this is included in the 6 month time frame. They could also or should also make sure that rear spoilers and other additional parts at least somewhat fit-up to the car. If on the slight chance that they are doing interior views, then with-out a doubt it would take 6 man months to get a car finished. Also I am sure that for instance the Skylines etc. that when they complete one model that it surely would not take as long to make very similar ones. So perhaps a 1/2 dozen skylines etc. in 6 months.

If GTHD comes out 1st half of 2007, and the demo GT5 part is as predicted where you can basically build your own GT5 game. With downloads comming for many years say 2007 to perhaps 2012. If GT5 code is written in away that it could be somewhat updated as better code is written then it would most likely be beyond 2012 before GT6 would ever come out. I also like the fact that online is continually being mentioned and focused on. Not to mention the fact of being able to race against anyone across the globe. The Online World of GT will be huge and a major part of the game. See you on the track sometime in 2007.