GT5 Physics - Spec 2.0

[Bigbazz]

Well, I can push the brake pedal to about 95% before I get locking with Comfort Softs on a stock DC2 Integra with my brake bias set to 5 / 3.
What pedals are you using?


Anyway, some physics thoughts:

Can't say I felt any real difference, but I didn't A -> B it. However, I have noticed the suspension do cool things, like I felt the rear-end hop up behind me over a bump. And perhaps cars are a little more peppy on the steering now that I think about it.

Sadly, the ridiculous drivetrain physics are the same, so clutch engagement only happens when the revs are matched, meaning your pulling away is stunted until that point, usually by which time the revs have dropped to below the point of any appreciable torque output. It seems a certain amount of power is required, simply to get the wheels spinning and the engine singing just to pull away.
Small cars still have stupid flywheel inertia issues. Low speed physics are still the same, switching grip levels on the driven wheels to aid with pulling away, as above.

Let the clutch transmit more torque when it is slipping, and see about that flywheel, please PD.

G27 - stock.

 

[Griffith500]

stop driving hondas.

The humour.

G27 - stock.

Ever think to try some other pedals? Mine (G25) were a bit over-sensitive stock, too. I put a load-cell in it, and now most of my braking without ABS is done in the 20%-80% range, and I can even brush the brakes at less than 5% or so. It's much easier.

However, you should still easily be able to adjust the brake bias to the point that you cannot actually lock the brakes on some cars. Also, if you were getting tank slappers all the time, that suggests an overly rearward (even if it's technically forward...) bias. I can get everything from snowplough to gyroscope behaviour on the brakes by tweaking the bias, as well as controlling the point in the brake-pressure range that lockup occurs. It's not perfect, and each car seems to have a different sensitivity.

To be fair, it'd be much better if we could set a master brake pressure / force and then a bias number that splits the between front and rear axles accordingly, as that's more intuitive to some.

 

[Sampyla20plus]

Its less about the computer power and more about the maths. The maths are wrong and the data available isnt complete, computers are more than powerful enough to accurately simulate driving in real time. Racing teams have access to all the data they need, and don't have to in any way cater for the needs of a gamer, so they generally have more accurate simulators.

Companies like iRacing try to simulate driving and do a decent job, but the racing teams don't allow them full access to data for modelling the cars, and the maths are just not complete to solve the problems (especially with the tyre model), which is why the simulator is not accurate.

GT5 physics are far behind that of iRacings.

Been driving iRacing some time and I really dont see your point, is it
A.Playing iRacing is same than driving actual car ?
B.iRacing has more data so it's more accurate because everything is pre-calculated ?
C.Have you EVER, ever driven a car found in iRacing in real life itself ?
D.If not, how can you compare how much more "simulation" it is
E. If yes, then why the laptimes achieved in both games comes to close with real life laptimes with given restrictions ?
(in both a player can achieve better time than in real life)

and finally

F.If a real life champion barely reaches iRacing leaderboards spot 2-20, wouldnt that make everyone else above him actually better in actual racing ?

 

[yukicore]

Put track edge grip to real.

It's on A-Spec Extreme series. No options like that there, i wish all race series would have tire wear. (Extreme doesn't have, only for B-Spec)

What were the grip settings set to? How much standing water was on the track?

Keep in mind that unless there is enough water to aquaplane then a slick tyre will always be faster if you can keep temperature in them.

It was 100% all the time. You may be right about speed but they should definitely skid more, but rain tires skid more, but those grooves on Rain tires should make car skid less...

With that temperature did you mean keep 'em cool or mid or hot?

How much rain? Check the rain gauge, it's possibly it's only light water on the track, in which case racing softs will be much faster than racing rain tires. You see this in F1 all the time when it rains, teams will try to figure out the perfect wet/dry point to switch back to full slicks, and when they do they are 5+ seconds a lap faster which causes everyone to run for the pits.

it was 100% all the time, no i think this is a problem, it can't be right that on very wet track completely slick tires skid less than tires optimized for rain with grooves.

 

[Astro_BS-AS]

Been driving iRacing some time and I really dont see your point, is it
A.Playing iRacing is same than driving actual car ?
B.iRacing has more data so it's more accurate because everything is pre-calculated ?
C.Have you EVER, ever driven a car found in iRacing in real life itself ?
D.If not, how can you compare how much more "simulation" it is
E. If yes, then why the laptimes achieved in both games comes to close with real life laptimes with given restrictions ?
(in both a player can achieve better time than in real life)

and finally

F.If a real life champion barely reaches iRacing leaderboards spot 2-20, wouldnt that make everyone else above him actually better in actual racing ?

Quite Simple. The majority of people have NEVER played iRacing, or any other "so-called-serious-sims".

The name "iRacing" became almost a "mantra" to some people...

If the laps in GT5 are so close to those IRL, there has to be something "sim-like" in the "game"....

But no... it has to be worse than iRacing... Why? Because it has an "i" in front of "Racing"...

 

[Bigbazz]

Been driving iRacing some time and I really dont see your point, is it
A.Playing iRacing is same than driving actual car ?
B.iRacing has more data so it's more accurate because everything is pre-calculated ?
C.Have you EVER, ever driven a car found in iRacing in real life itself ?
D.If not, how can you compare how much more "simulation" it is
E. If yes, then why the laptimes achieved in both games comes to close with real life laptimes with given restrictions ?
(in both a player can achieve better time than in real life)

and finally

F.If a real life champion barely reaches iRacing leaderboards spot 2-20, wouldnt that make everyone else above him actually better in actual racing ?

Hell no, I never said iRacing was realistic. I said if I drive like I do in iRacing then I lock the brakes left right and centre. You need to read the post more carefully before jumping to conclusions. I was saying (i'm not sure if it was that post tho) that iRacing doesnt have all the data and the maths are wrong, so therefor it is not realistic, but either way GT5 is even further behind (by quite some margin) in that department.

Infact I was arguing against iRacing on their forums about various things being unrealistic. But not to get into a long post, but I feel with my various experience of driving cars that driving in iRacing feels more natural and more realistic. Not in every aspect, but certaintly in braking (which I find is less realistic than NetKars braking, but that is another story).

But no, I am under no illusion, I don't think any of the sims available today are like racing a real car.


To your last question tho F. Racing in sims is pro gaming, racing in real life is a physical workout... Guys who practice sitting on their asses playing a game are going to be good at it, but in a car you get thrown around and many more factors come to play. I absolutely expect a good sim racer to beat a good race driver in a sim, unless the race driver spends considerable time with the sim.... Its likely that he won't be able to do that, because he will be too busy racing real cars.



If you haven't tried iRacing, don't knock it. There is a reason it is better, do some of your own research. There is no doubt that as much as i do love GT5, as a simulator it is not even close to iRacing. You go in career mode in F1 2010 on expert mode, you will see realistic laptimes, but those are not realistic physics.

 

[CodeRedR51]

GT5 physics are far behind that of iRacings.

And I think it will remain that way. GT5 is still a console game, and therefore is produced in such a manner that the everyday person can pick it up and play. Unfortunately I think this will remain the way it is, but it's certainly not a bad thing. GT5 does have the best console physics of any driving game I have ever played...

 

[shirakawaa]

If the laps in GT5 are so close to those IRL, there has to be something "sim-like" in the "game"....

GT4 had a "grip level" fudge value for each car, people discovered when disassembling the game files to hack them. It cannot be excluded that something similar isn't used in GT5 in order to obtain comparable track times with real life in some cars.

 

[Astro_BS-AS]

GT4 had a "grip level" fudge value for each car, people discovered when disassembling the game files to hack them. It cannot be excluded that something similar isn't used in GT5 in order to obtain comparable track times with real life in some cars.

I respect your opinions, because I´ve followed your posts in the "tire testing" thread, but you can´t say that everything that GT5 have in common with real life driving is because of a "tire grip hacking".

Come on, man... I´ve never driven an Audi R8, as many of us, but my Jetta 1.8 Turbo (with 220 hp) drives very close to the VR6 "standar". And my old Peugeot 206, was quite close in terms of "feeling".

And I have to test the improved physics model.

I´ve "raced" GTR and it was almost "quirurgical" in terms of simulation. A lot of parameters... but no feeling. No sense of feedback.

I´ll stick to the facts. GT5 does a lot of things "wrong" in many aspects, but what´s done good, is amazingly well done.

 

[Bandit6]

Skinning the rumble strips feels just right now, a great improvement. Also It's a bit easier to point the nose of the car in corners, it always felt a bit jerky to me before.

Also what's up with the G27 loosing it's button assignments?

 

[Motor City Hami]

Been driving iRacing some time and I really dont see your point, is it
A.Playing iRacing is same than driving actual car ?
B.iRacing has more data so it's more accurate because everything is pre-calculated ?
C.Have you EVER, ever driven a car found in iRacing in real life itself ?
D.If not, how can you compare how much more "simulation" it is
E. If yes, then why the laptimes achieved in both games comes to close with real life laptimes with given restrictions ?
(in both a player can achieve better time than in real life)

and finally

F.If a real life champion barely reaches iRacing leaderboards spot 2-20, wouldnt that make everyone else above him actually better in actual racing ?

I just signed up for iRacing to drive MX5 Miatas at Mid Ohio. I also race in the real world in an MX5 Miata... guess where... at Mid Ohio. No video game or sim can accurately simulate the real world. You just can't properly simulate the g forces. You feel the handling of a real world car through your butt and hips then your eyes and ears. In all sims and video games you only have your eyes first, then maybe some force feedback in a wheel. Still not realistic.

What I have found in a couple of weeks using iRacing on my favorite real world track is this. Race tracks are realistic in that all of the turns go exactly where they should and the bumps are in the right places, but the graphics are not as good as GT5. Also, wheel and pedal settings have alot to do with being fast in iRacing. I am currently 8 seconds off of my real world times in the same car. The sim brakes are an issue. One other difference to GT5 is that I think iRacing has done a better job at programming the wheel FFB.

GT5 though I think has a better physics model, comparing game to game. Again, the real world cannot be simulated without the g forces. GT5 has a wider range between grip, maximum grip, slightly over the limit and spinning into the weeds. Tire smoke in GT5 and the red tire indicators give you a chance to see/hear an issue and correct for it. iRacing seems to be either you are on the limit or spinning (may be my wheel settings). In real life, I have more feedback to tell me when I'm on the limit or stepping just over it. I think GT5 does a better job at simulating that.

 

[Astro_BS-AS]

I just signed up for iRacing to drive MX5 Miatas at Mid Ohio. I also race in the real world in an MX5 Miata... guess where... at Mid Ohio. No video game or sim can accurately simulate the real world. You just can't properly simulate the g forces. You feel the handling of a real world car through your butt and hips then your eyes and ears. In all sims and video games you only have your eyes first, then maybe some force feedback in a wheel. Still not realistic.

What I have found in a couple of weeks using iRacing on my favorite real world track is this. Race tracks are realistic in that all of the turns go exactly where they should and the bumps are in the right places, but the graphics are not as good as GT5. Also, wheel and pedal settings have alot to do with being fast in iRacing. I am currently 8 seconds off of my real world times in the same car. The sim brakes are an issue. One other difference to GT5 is that I think iRacing has done a better job at programming the wheel FFB.

GT5 though I think has a better physics model, comparing game to game. Again, the real world cannot be simulated without the g forces. GT5 has a wider range between grip, maximum grip, slightly over the limit and spinning into the weeds. Tire smoke in GT5 and the red tire indicators give you a chance to see/hear an issue and correct for it. iRacing seems to be either you are on the limit or spinning (may be my wheel settings). In real life, I have more feedback to tell me when I'm on the limit or stepping just over it. I think GT5 does a better job at simulating that.

Man, if you somehow go to Laguna Seca, please open a Thread. The 8 seconds difference says A LOT about the driving model... It´s not 2 seconds... 8 seconds is a lifetime in racing.

Hope you can add more about the topic.
👍

 

[Bigbazz]

And I think it will remain that way. GT5 is still a console game, and therefore is produced in such a manner that the everyday person can pick it up and play. Unfortunately I think this will remain the way it is, but it's certainly not a bad thing. GT5 does have the best console physics of any driving game I have ever played...

I agree, I love GT5, it is without doubt one of my favourite games, ever. But that doesnt mean I don't have problems with it?

People never seem to understand how I can love something, but take such issue and be so vocal over its problems? I'm the same with any game, including iRacing, which has many of its own problems.

How about, the LMP2 car that in real life has traction control, but since the racing team would not give away the data for the TC, iRacing decided to just release the car without it. However accurate they may (or may not) have got the rest of the car, it would never be accurate or drive like the real thing without having traction control.

A real life race driver of the car (A benefit of iRacing, is that many real race drivers use it) complained heavily about the way the car drove, and expressed that his real car was easier to drive in the rain, than the iRacing version was in the dry.

It has its issues, I just think GT5 is further behind, and i'm pretty sure anybody who has tried it would agree. That doesnt mean I don't like GT5, I love GT5.

 

[Sampyla20plus]

I just signed up for iRacing to drive MX5 Miatas at Mid Ohio. I also race in the real world in an MX5 Miata... guess where... at Mid Ohio. No video game or sim can accurately simulate the real world. You just can't properly simulate the g forces. You feel the handling of a real world car through your butt and hips then your eyes and ears. In all sims and video games you only have your eyes first, then maybe some force feedback in a wheel. Still not realistic.

What I have found in a couple of weeks using iRacing on my favorite real world track is this. Race tracks are realistic in that all of the turns go exactly where they should and the bumps are in the right places, but the graphics are not as good as GT5. Also, wheel and pedal settings have alot to do with being fast in iRacing. I am currently 8 seconds off of my real world times in the same car. The sim brakes are an issue. One other difference to GT5 is that I think iRacing has done a better job at programming the wheel FFB.

GT5 though I think has a better physics model, comparing game to game. Again, the real world cannot be simulated without the g forces. GT5 has a wider range between grip, maximum grip, slightly over the limit and spinning into the weeds. Tire smoke in GT5 and the red tire indicators give you a chance to see/hear an issue and correct for it. iRacing seems to be either you are on the limit or spinning (may be my wheel settings). In real life, I have more feedback to tell me when I'm on the limit or stepping just over it. I think GT5 does a better job at simulating that.

Aye, I didnt mean iRacing is crap, more like similar to GT5 than actually hugely better what comes to "realism" which, like you said, cannot be "realistic" in a videogame, it needs more than visual sense from a driver.
I've been racing on iRacing for some time and thinking about leaving it once and for all. Because I can do pretty much same in a game I've purchased once and no need to pay by month.

 

[Tenacious D]

I have to question the adoration for iRacing over any other PC sim too. And I have to question whether it's worth the cost of all that content and a year's "rental" over a good PC sim like the GTRs or LFS. Or even GT5. I've played Prologue, which isn't as good as GT5 in most areas, and felt remarkably like I was racing in one of my sims. Some people say the same thing about Forza 4.

As for braking, I only race in my stocking feet, and have to practice at it. Every game has their own math on car physics, so I simply adjust to whatever the car is doing in any particular game, and so far, GT5 and my sims are fairly similar to each other. I think this is just another example of where taste and feelings strongly slant a person's impressions of an experience they can't feel directly, as in real life. With all the experienced racers here playing all these games, they have to be doing most things right, really right, or no one would have a good thing to say about them.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Also It's a bit easier to point the nose of the car in corners, it always felt a bit jerky to me before.

This is the biggest thing I am happy with...

 

[sokira]

For me the new physics looks like the physics on the old TT demo do you remember guy ? I was so dissapointed when GT5 came out and find that wasn't the same physics... But I'm so happy now !

 

[Bigbazz]

The humour.


Ever think to try some other pedals? Mine (G25) were a bit over-sensitive stock, too. I put a load-cell in it, and now most of my braking without ABS is done in the 20%-80% range, and I can even brush the brakes at less than 5% or so. It's much easier.

However, you should still easily be able to adjust the brake bias to the point that you cannot actually lock the brakes on some cars. Also, if you were getting tank slappers all the time, that suggests an overly rearward (even if it's technically forward...) bias. I can get everything from snowplough to gyroscope behaviour on the brakes by tweaking the bias, as well as controlling the point in the brake-pressure range that lockup occurs. It's not perfect, and each car seems to have a different sensitivity.

To be fair, it'd be much better if we could set a master brake pressure / force and then a bias number that splits the between front and rear axles accordingly, as that's more intuitive to some.

Ideally I would rather about 5% deadzone in the brake pedal, or a much more non-linear (exponential increase) braking model, so that I can brush brake with ease and properly threshold brake, it seems that even a feathers ammount of brake movement (that would do nothing in a real car/other sims) causing some considerable brake pressure.



I've considered upgrading to Clubsport pedals. But firstly, i'm not sure if I can run them with my G27 in GT5, and secondly I'm not sure I can justify the price for what is just a hobby. I have no real issues in other games.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Man, if you somehow go to Laguna Seca, please open a Thread. The 8 seconds difference says A LOT about the driving model... It´s not 2 seconds... 8 seconds is a lifetime in racing.

Hope you can add more about the topic.
👍

I will be using iRacing to teach myself better left foot braking. I'm just not that good at it and learning at speed on practice days at the track is proving a bit dangerous. Lose it at 90mph coming out of Thunder Valley and very bad things can happen. You need to be ultra smooth to go through there foot flat to the floor with just a rub of braking at turn in. Hoping iRacing can help me get the feel for those smooth left foot inputs. Need to make the pedals and wheel feel like closer to the real car. Faaaarrrrr more adjustments in iRacing for the wheel settings.

 

[Bandit6]

This is the biggest thing I am happy with...

An excellent improvement, feels so much easier aiming the nose when it comes to the cork screw at Laguna Seca. 👍

 

[alucard0712]

For me the new physics looks like the physics on the old TT demo do you remember guy ? I was so dissapointed when GT5 came out and find that wasn't the same physics... But I'm so happy now !

Hey stop! TTDemo felt best to me, does Spec 2.0 feels somewhat the same? TTDemo was hard, but you feel the car at same time. GT5 feels at least easer than TTDemo. How is it now? Can you guys take Nissan 370Z into Indianapolis Road course once again?

 

[Nielsen]

It feels like they added a sense gravity. Before the update cars tended to feel like they were floating on the road.

 

[Stradivis]

Thank you Jesus 👍

I guess his name is still Kazunori.

 

[GTOne2Three]

How about the crash and rollover physics?

 

[CodeRedR51]

It feels like they added a sense gravity. Before the update cars tended to feel like they were floating on the road.

This describes it pretty well actually.

How about the crash and rollover physics?

Haven't tried yet.

 

[Christhedude]

F.If a real life champion barely reaches iRacing leaderboards spot 2-20, wouldnt that make everyone else above him actually better in actual racing ?

thats exactly what is happening with me. I can barely reach top 50, or sometimes top 100 and i race professionally in real life since 2002...

Im fast in sims, but there are way faster people then me..., guess its cause i setup the cars like i would in real life.

 

[Dr.Boss.]

i can't believe natalie portman is posting in this thread!

 

[sumbrownkid]

thats exactly what is happening with me. I can barely reach top 50, or sometimes top 100 and i race professionally in real life since 2002...

Im fast in sims, but there are way faster people then me..., guess its cause i setup the cars like i would in real life.

Sims can only replicate so much. I bet you can trash those guys in the a real race because of all the tangibles not felt in a sim (car heat, gravity, steering response, your own sweat...).

 

[sokira]

Hey stop! TTDemo felt best to me, does Spec 2.0 feels somewhat the same? TTDemo was hard, but you feel the car at same time. GT5 feels at least easer than TTDemo. How is it now? Can you guys take Nissan 370Z into Indianapolis Road course once again?

Maybe it's not the same but I feel the same ! Just try any road car with comfort soft tire. I tried the the old RX7 Savanna (premium) on the Nurb and I was more exhausted than before. It's not an impression it's the reality ! (I play with the T500rs)

 

[Andy89]

Sport tires seem to have a bit more grip and i've noticed faster lap times on sports soft than pre update, sport mediums are the new sport softs, hard the new mediums etc...

Definitely a positive improvement overall.

I found the opposite instead. Cars on Sport Hard Tires are a lot more twitchy and have less grip in the middle of a corner. Actually my fastest Lap Times on Nurburgring GP/F are 1,1 seconds slower with the stock McLaren F1 (pre patch was a 2:08.6, post patch is 2:09.7) and 1,6 seconds slower with the Enzo (pre patch was a 2:10.2, post patch is 2:11.8). The feeling of the car is improved in my opinion, and you have to be a lot more careful when braking and when you scale down gears. I obviously play with no assists except ABS=1.