GT5 Sound Thread

  • Thread starter Marry_Me_GT
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DaveTheStalker
Let me remind you, you flew off the handle when someone wanted to know how you know "the reason" the sounds are as such.

Quite unprofessional if you ask me ;)

Oh I quite agree mate.

I wonder if I was from a third world country and he had made those remarks would he even still be here.
 
Oh I quite agree mate.

I wonder if I was from a third world country and he had made those remarks would he even still be here.

I doubt YOU would still be there to be realistic judging by the way you seem to post on every motorsport and gaming forum known to man, with conflicting claims, or shall i say lies, of what car you own.
 
brainfade
I doubt YOU would still be there to be realistic judging by the way you seem to post on every motorsport and gaming forum known to man, with conflicting claims, or shall i say lies, of what car you own.

Right you HAVE to show proof of that.
If your calling me out I want it shown.

Don't worry I don't work for Microsoft. There will be no lawyers on your ass.
 
Right you HAVE to show proof of that.
If your calling me out I want it shown.

Don't worry I don't work for Microsoft. There will be no lawyers on your ass.

The list goes on and on....

http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=ps....,cf.osb&fp=8ea6e6af506b86c3&biw=1099&bih=658

...oh and also I'm pretty certain you can never afford a lawyer.... oh and before you say "it could be anyone on those accounts... they all trail to your IP, not surprised to see that you act like a total arsewagon on those forums too.

Oh, and again, seeing as you occasionally post in Welsh on other forums, heres a translation for you:

"Mae'r rhestr yn mynd ymlaen ac ymlaen ....

.. oh a hefyd dwi'n eithaf sicr y gallwch byth [/ U] fforddio cyfreithiwr .... oh a chyn i chi yn dweud "y gallai fod yn unrhyw un ar y cyfrifon hynny ... maent i gyd yn llwybr at eich IP, nid yn synnu o weld eich bod yn gweithredu fel cyfanswm arsewagon ar y rhai fforymau hefyd."

I've also noticed how you're kronies names are at the bottom of the page as viewing because you've instructed them to click "report" ...how sad, you seem to think this is a school-yard gang-fight ...goes to show how stable an individual you are Edwin.
 
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What proof. I don't see anything.
Please post up my lies.

Now PMing with insults. As if it's not enought to do it publically.
 
mj_popcorn.gif
 
This proves my point, they do the external sounds too close to the car in a totally half-arsed attempt.

In my opinion if you want a proper external sound then you need a rig that can be locked onto the roof of a car which holds 4-8 microphones on beams/rods 5meters away from the car in a 'spider' layout, if you do it to close to the car then you will catch the whirring sounds which aren't meant to be heard and not catch the correct sounds of the cars.

Well, I think Forza's method is about as good as it's going to get. You absolutely do want it to be close mic'd. What's more important, though, is where those mics are placed - ever tried recording an acoustic guitar?
If you read the article I linked to about Forza's sounds, you'll see they often have to resort to drastic measures to get the sounds they need, and there are usually several mics very close to different things making sound, with a few for overview of the middle-distance to make sure mixing is accurate.

I.e. put a microphone by the intake opening, put one by the wastegate / screamer pipe, one by the blow off valve, one above the valve cover or under the oil pan, one by the exhaust manifold, one in front of the radiator, one by the windscreen and finally one about three metres away for the full mix. Just for the "engine sound".
That way you can blend the individual recordings to match the distant recording or the close one (radiator, firewall) depending on what your needs are. With experience and practicality in mind, you could probably cut that number down significantly, but the idea would still be the same.

Why wouldn't you use the 3m recording directly? Colouration, from the environment reverb, and from background noise. You want your samples to be as clean as a whistle, ready to put your own localisation effects onto it depending on what's going on in the game.

I'm thinking that PD just needs the right tools with the right techniques to nail the car sounds.

This company shown below uses some high-end microphones to record accurate sounds of a race car. I'm thinking that PD can use those tools to record the interior and exhaust sounds while a car is either racing or on the RINO. That way, they can create authentic car sound effects without them being forced to use artificial sound mods to remove unnecessary noises.



This is brilliant proof of what I was talking about. They are all close mic'd recordings (one of them is a contact recording!) with excellent quality and not too much colouration (except in the cabin, where you want it, and the contact recording where it's band limited by the structure and the transducer). However, the engine noise is saturated with that ridiculously loud exhaust sound. I'm not sure that would be easy to fix, but it does reflect the cabin sound well enough; however, I wouldn't be so sure about the sound on the exterior.
They're missing a dedicated intake recording (probably hard to obtain) which will show up on any attempt at an exterior reproduction, but that doesn't seem to have been the aim of this video. The mix at the end takes a good deal of artistic licence and doesn't really represent the interior mix taken from behind the driver. Not that it matters, since you can't really use this for samples for a game - it's too transient. They'd serve as excellent reference recordings, though. I'm also really pleased at the vindication of an idea I had to record vibrations from the car's structure, and was even more pleased to hear the combustion pulses through that rollcage. :)

A final note: compare the high quality interior recording with that off the camera and remember the fan-made sound packs for certain games whose sounds clearly came from YouTube videos.

EDIT: It seems this car has a particularly quiet intake / particularly loud exhaust.
EDIT: It also runs intake restrictors, which act as high-pass filters for sound, so the intake sound is now competing directly with that incredible exhaust noise.
 
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Griffith500
Well, I think Forza's method is about as good as it's going to get. You absolutely do want it to be close mic'd. What's more important, though, is where those mics are placed - ever tried recording an acoustic guitar?
If you read the article I linked to about Forza's sounds, you'll see they often have to resort to drastic measures to get the sounds they need, and there are usually several mics very close to different things making sound, with a few for overview of the middle-distance to make sure mixing is accurate.

I.e. put a microphone by the intake opening, put one by the wastegate / screamer pipe, one by the blow off valve, one above the valve cover or under the oil pan, one by the exhaust manifold, one in front of the radiator, one by the windscreen and finally one about three metres away for the full mix. Just for the "engine sound".
That way you can blend the individual recordings to match the distant recording or the close one (radiator, firewall) depending on what your needs are. With experience and practicality in mind, you could probably cut that number down significantly, but the idea would still be the same.

Why wouldn't you use the 3m recording directly? Colouration, from the environment reverb, and from background noise. You want your samples to be as clean as a whistle, ready to put your own localisation effects onto it depending on what's going on in the game.

This is brilliant proof of what I was talking about. They are all close mic'd recordings (one of them is a contact recording!) with excellent quality and not too much colouration (except in the cabin, where you want it, and the contact recording where it's band limited by the structure and the transducer). However, the engine noise is saturated with that ridiculously loud exhaust sound. I'm not sure that would be easy to fix, but it does reflect the cabin sound well enough; however, I wouldn't be so sure about the sound on the exterior.
They're missing a dedicated intake recording (probably hard to obtain) which will show up on any attempt at an exterior reproduction, but that doesn't seem to have been the aim of this video. The mix at the end takes a good deal of artistic licence and doesn't really represent the interior mix taken from behind the driver. Not that it matters, since you can't really use this for samples for a game - it's too transient. They'd serve as excellent reference recordings, though. I'm also really pleased at the vindication of an idea I had to record vibrations from the car's structure, and was even more pleased to hear the combustion pulses through that rollcage. :)

A final note: compare the high quality interior recording with that off the camera and remember the fan-made sound packs for certain games whose sounds clearly came from YouTube videos.

EDIT: It seems this car has a particularly quiet intake / particularly loud exhaust.
EDIT: It also runs intake restrictors, which act as high-pass filters for sound, so the intake sound is now competing directly with that incredible exhaust noise.

All of this care to fine tune sound is turned on its ear when you put on a Sports, Semi Racing, or Racing muffler. And then headers, with or without any of the above. And then a performance air filter. Etc, etc, etc., for over 1000 cars...
 
All of this care to fine tune sound is turned on its ear when you put on a Sports, Semi Racing, or Racing muffler. And then headers, with or without any of the above. And then a performance air filter. Etc, etc, etc., for over 1000 cars...

It's quite the problem, isn't it? ;)

I'll continue to argue that detailed synthesis is the future for any attempt at a wide variety of car sounds, but that very word evokes such emotion from people that it'd probably have to be called something else. Look at the uproar about BMW's playing the engine note through the sound system of the F10 M5 (despite most people having never even heard it), or their plan to play a six-cylinder engine note through the sound system of an upcoming turbo four (I think a Z4). To quote BMW: "Noise dampening is mandatory, sound design is freestyle." Expect synthesis to become a big thing in real cars, let alone their digital re-creations.


My hope for games is that you'd only need to do this recording (perhaps only for reference, eventually) for the standard car, develop a synthesis model for it and then modify the input parameters to generate the modified sounds as the parts and level of tune are changed.

It's already possible "offline" (i.e., not in real-time) so it's perfect for a game, so long as you've got somewhere to put all the samples.
 
brainfade
Well seeing as you want to be sarcastic, buy a microphone from Maplin (if they have that in Wales, your nearest one would probably be over the nearest dale or valley). Strap it to the bonnet of your car connected to a recording device and go on abit of a drive, then listen to what it's recorded, providing your car isn't the average shopping trolley which I presume it is anyway. Or, if you have a life (which I doubt) take that microphone to your nearest drum&bass rave and put the microphone next to the speaker.

And just incase you deliberately decide to mis-interpret that, I understand that English is not the 1st language of Wales, so luckily our friends at google have made a translater for your assistance!:

"Wel gweld wrth i chi am fod yn coeglyd, prynu microffon gan Maplin (os ydynt wedi bod yng Nghymru, byddai un sydd agosaf atoch mae'n debyg fod dros y Dale agosaf neu cwm). Nid yw strap i'r bonet car eich cysylltu â dyfais recordio ac yn mynd ar abit o ymgyrch, yna gwrando ar yr hyn ei gofnodi, ar yr amod eich car yn y troli siopa chyfartaledd yr wyf yn tybio ei fod yn beth bynnag. Neu, os oes gennych bywyd (yr wyf yn amau) gymryd y meicroffon i'ch drwm bas agosaf a brwd a ​​rhowch y meicroffon wrth ymyl y siaradwr."

Oh, and before you go to the AUP to go quote what you're blatantly going to quote:

1) My post is in English, I have merely translated it to assist you with your 2nd language difficulties.

2) My post is not bullying or targeting, it is merely eliminating any possibility of deliberate misinterpretation seeing as you and a few of your friends love doing that these days.

Oh, and pretty much every drum&bass producer is on facebook and twitter and I'm pretty sure if you ask them an audio related question they're be rather keen to reply, if not then they will just copy and paste your message into a status/tweet and embarrass you Edwin.

My thoughts exactly, must be Mike Penny who got fired by One Nation for muting the MC's audio at an event.

^^^I'm aware a certain welsh fellow who likes spagetti may ask me to provide proof of this, well here is the set in question, listen and enjoy: http://www.filestube.com/16258e11c69083a803e9/details.html

This is correct if true........ My GoPro camera for my moto when I go to the track and film go home and watch my track vid...my bike cbr 600rr sounds like a huge blender... If I put my camera on my helmet then it sounds fine....lol
 
brainfade
Oh, and before you go to the AUP to go quote what you're blatantly going to quote:

1) My post is in English, I have merely translated it to assist you with your 2nd language difficulties.

2) My post is not bullying or targeting, it is merely eliminating any possibility of deliberate misinterpretation seeing as you and a few of your friends love doing that these days.

Oh, and pretty much every drum&bass producer is on facebook and twitter and I'm pretty sure if you ask them an audio related question they're be rather keen to reply, if not then they will just copy and paste your message into a status/tweet and embarrass you Edwin.

To quote the AUP at you, you just sent me a PM stating that my views aren't valid as I come from Brighton now there are two very narrow minded views in there, one of which is more serious than the other.

1) You assume everyone in Brighton is homosexual as assumed by the press and Brighton’s reputation well that’s not the case Brighton is just very multicultural,

2) You are then implying the if I was (which I'm not) homosexual (or if I come from a place with a dence population of homosexuals) my views aren't valid,

Now this is targeting against a whole group of people, plus it’s a wrongly accused assumption in my direction,

To clear things up I don't agree with you or Spaghetti (but unlike you he didn’t attack me), I just like talking about GT5's sound and hearing what Griffith and over proper users have to say.

At griffith but how complex would this model need to be and would you modify just the final sound of each individual componenet?
 
witham
At griffith but how complex would this model need to be and would you modify just the final sound of each individual componenet?

I'm not Griffith obviously. But, I know that even inexpensive mufflers from different companies can produce different tones. PD has their hands quite full with all of these variables. And then add engine break-in. The change is slight, nonetheless I have noticed a change since Spec 2.
 
I'm not Griffith obviously. But, I know that even inexpensive mufflers from different companies can produce different tones. PD has their hands quite full with all of these variables. And then add engine break-in. The change is slight, nonetheless I have noticed a change since Spec 2.

Ok I see what your saying, when you look at it like this creating accurate sounds for 1000 cars is a massive task!
 
They do get a fair bit more leeway in creating sounds for modified cars than they do for stock cars. A stock Miata needs to sound more or less like a real stock Miata. A Miata with a modified exhaust in-game doesn't need to sound like a Miata with any particular brand of exhaust fitted, it just needs to sound noticeably different in a way that would conceivably be accurate for some sort of exhaust, sometime, somewhere.

I'm unlikely to get up in arms about the sound being more like my mate's RSR exhaust than my own Fujitsubo system, as long as it sounds like some sort of exhaust upgrade. It doesn't even have to copy any real brand, it just needs to be believable. Which is what a lot of the mods at the moment are not.
 
I'm not Griffith obviously. But, I know that even inexpensive mufflers from different companies can produce different tones. PD has their hands quite full with all of these variables. And then add engine break-in. The change is slight, nonetheless I have noticed a change since Spec 2.

Except the mufflers etc. are the easy bit, they're very well understood acoustic structures that can be approximated satisfactorily with a set of ordinary filters. Besides, there's absolutely no way to spend the time matching the fictional parts up to real after-market ones, so they have absolute creative freedom as to the subtleties of the tuned sounds, but if the underlying model of the engine is accurate, then it shouldn't ever sound too far "wrong" with sensible settings, plus there's always CAD data. And the idea is the player can fine-tune their sound, if it's just filters. ;)

This is precisely what I was talking about, too, by the way. The perceived complexity is going to put everyone off (even those who aren't likely to be directly involved in the process), despite the fact that making the sounds in their current form is already very complex, given the samples aren't balanced for volume, they're not phase aligned etc. With synthesis, this layer disappears completely, since the system can easily be configured to normalise the samples and have them all start at just the right point to avoid those nasty phasing artifacts.

From that point, it's just a case of getting used to the new tools, and we all know people hate change. :P
The other difficulty is having artists who don't know how an engine works, but I suspect that's a problem common to any sound reproduction method.


As for how to do it, I suspect that a "first principles" physical model will be the best bet in the long run. Some current synthesis methods rely on classical synthesis techniques, which can at times show themselves. I expect physical modeling of the engine to be far superior in certain aspects, whilst lagging behind in others as compared to classical synthesis. That gap can be closed with a carefully balanced "best of both" approach, by filling in the sonic gaps where necessary, but the level of expression possible and the removal of guesswork that comes with the physical model (as long as you have the physical data) will pay dividends in the end.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained, and all that.
(I expect if PD are going to do this, they'd already have made a prototype or two. It won't happen on the PS3, though.)
 
I always drive with headphones on and sound equalized. Sounds good to me.

I used to study audio recordings. We were always recording instruments (drums, guitars, vocals...). Every instrument has its own characteristic and a certain type of mic for each recording technic. Its something you have to dominate for years to get a respectable sounding recording.

So yeah, I respect PD very much for their effort.
 
The only thing is with synthesis, there are no overrun sounds, no backfire, gear crunching noises.

Why not? Those sounds are only in a game if someone put them there, so that the engine can synthesise them and send them to the sound hardware. A hint: if it's coming out of a computer game, it's synthesis, no ifs nor buts - it's not like you can package a car (or 1000) into the game's box and have it make the noises as you play the game!

Even I've semi-successfully created a very crude (and ever-so-slightly buggy) overrun effect - it's even procedural according to some contrived analogue to fuel accumulation, so it always sounds different. And I have the talent of a dead stoat when it comes to this sort of thing!
The professionals are more than capable of producing convincing, fully synthesised sound effects. GT5 is full of them: tyre squeal, turbo sounds, gear whine (an easy one), etc. It's not even the only option; you could have real-time fully-synthesised-from-first-principles engine noises (on some magical hardware somewhere) and still use real recordings of overrun, or gear whine. They aren't mutually exclusive, because it's all synthesis!
 
Why not? Those sounds are only in a game if someone put them there, so that the engine can synthesise them and send them to the sound hardware. A hint: if it's coming out of a computer game, it's synthesis, no ifs nor buts - it's not like you can package a car (or 1000) into the game's box and have it make the noises as you play the game!

Even I've semi-successfully created a very crude (and ever-so-slightly buggy) overrun effect - it's even procedural according to some contrived analogue to fuel accumulation, so it always sounds different. And I have the talent of a dead stoat when it comes to this sort of thing!
The professionals are more than capable of producing convincing, fully synthesised sound effects. GT5 is full of them: tyre squeal, turbo sounds, gear whine (an easy one), etc. It's not even the only option; you could have real-time fully-synthesised-from-first-principles engine noises (on some magical hardware somewhere) and still use real recordings of overrun, or gear whine. They aren't mutually exclusive, because it's all synthesis!

Ah ok I see what your saying I completely got the wrong end of the stick, real life overrun sounds would be amazing but I would imagine difficult because overrun sounds aren't always the same it depends on driver, the amount of geals your going down, how long you hold the gears etc, so I would imagiine you would need lots of samples to and lots of rules involing what samples to use etc, surely wouldn't it work best if these samples and the picking of them was controlled by the amount of braking etc.
 
Here's what ***** me about PDs and some posters on here approach about getting "good" car sounds in a game. Distortion happens to human ears as well. You shouldnt try to eliminate it in all occasions. in nature sounds do not flatline either. The sounds in the game are very artificial
they need to be raw and gruesome. Accuracy is actually one of the lesser important things to get a good sounding game.
 
Here's what ***** me about PDs and some posters on here approach about getting "good" car sounds in a game. Distortion happens to human ears as well. You shouldnt try to eliminate it in all occasions. in nature sounds do not flatline either. The sounds in the game are very artificial
they need to be raw and gruesome. Accuracy is actually one of the lesser important things to get a good sounding game.

You absolutely should eliminate distortion in recordings, and add it back in when it's appropriate (i.e. when the SPL would cause in-ear distortion in the same situation, not all the time). You can't synthesise exhaust sounds without the distortion effect (as far as the sound that comes out of the cylinder head is concerned) that comes from the exhaust pipes vibrating; or the scattering of higher frequencies in air, as another example. In that sense, all recordings of a car are full of distortion. The distortion to avoid is that due to the recording equipment, because they don't work like our ear-brain does.

Accuracy is everything, or else everyone would be satisfied with GT5's sounds. It all depends on how you define accuracy; clearly you've chosen a somewhat negative definition.

By the way, all game sounds are artificial. ;)
(In the same way that an electronic piano is artificial.)


@ witham: yes, the main obstacle to realistic and convincing sounds, irrespective of how you choose to generate them, comes down to the complexity and flexibility (as necessary) of the control scheme that drives that generation - at least assuming the sound you can generate is suitably convincing in the first place. The de-facto standard method for racing games is multi-sampling, which is itself pretty complex (a bit like that electronic piano, actually...)
 
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