Marry_Me_GT
(Banned)
- 180
- United Kingdom
4870 posts!? Thanks a lot, again, for keeping this thread alive for two years! 
GT5 Sound Thread
- Thread starter Marry_Me_GT
- 5,638 comments
- 545,785 views
- 973
- Gadbury / GTP_Gadbury
Check this teaser site for SimBin's just-announced GTR3.
Apparantly, all audio on the site is from the game - Kaz, pay attention
http://gtr3.com/
Apparantly, all audio on the site is from the game - Kaz, pay attention
http://gtr3.com/
- 8,725
Not bad, actually. There's a little bit of permanent distortion in the exhaust (it sounds like microphone distortion), but it's pretty good. I like that they're trying to use the reverb properly, but it still lacks depth, envelopment and "diffusivity" - I expect that's a preset issue mostly. Then again, the reverb lacks the band-pass characteristics of reflections from different materials, too, so who knows. Reverb generators are all over the place these days, so hopefully games can start making use of them properly.
Very promising. Without any video to go with it, though, there's no telling how well it all matches up just yet.
Very promising. Without any video to go with it, though, there's no telling how well it all matches up just yet.
- 712
- Athens
- GTP_Shaman
- Othershidapu
Check this teaser site for SimBin's just-announced GTR3.
Apparantly, all audio on the site is from the game - Kaz, pay attention
http://gtr3.com/
Was about to post this...
Those sounds are the most amazing i've ever heard in a game...
- 9,765
- OrlandoFL GMT-5
- GTP__Jav
Damn that's a beautiful melody!!!Check this teaser site for SimBin's just-announced GTR3.
Apparantly, all audio on the site is from the game - Kaz, pay attention
http://gtr3.com/
PD will we ever get sounds like this from you??
- 446
- Lusitânia
- Moontallico
That was beautiful! 
Someone please send that link to Kaz!
Maybe after he'll make PD work on the sounds for GT5 to make them as good as GTR3s'.
Someone please send that link to Kaz!
Maybe after he'll make PD work on the sounds for GT5 to make them as good as GTR3s'.
HKS racer
(Banned)
- 4,802
Come on, some people are perfectly ok using vacum cleaners in GT5 and someone else go fussy about GTR3 reverb... Are you kidding me??
Did you really hear that??? Seriously that's lights year better then the average vacum cleaner PD stuff. Now that's IMMERSIVE sound.Oh yeah baby!
Hooray for SIMBIN
Get REAL.
- 172
- K-Town
- Tintorera
Today I was using my BMW M Coupe '98 in the European hot hatch seasonal.
I was running in cockpit view, and I must say OMG! The car was sounding HORRIBLE. Like the engine noises was recorded inside a tin can.
I have always thought the BMW straight 6's have an avsome sound in real life. And after playing GT5 for a year now, this is the car I am most dissapoined in, sound wise
I was running in cockpit view, and I must say OMG! The car was sounding HORRIBLE. Like the engine noises was recorded inside a tin can.
I have always thought the BMW straight 6's have an avsome sound in real life. And after playing GT5 for a year now, this is the car I am most dissapoined in, sound wise
- 8,725
To be honest, all PD need to do to surpass that is improve their samples (so, re-record them, probably) and add a few more incidental effects, such as more expressive overrun, gear changes, dirt, gravel, creaks, bumps, bangs, tyre noise etc. Oh, and sort their reverb volumes out, too. But please, just don't forget the INTAKE! (You know, I'd consider making a twitter account just to tell Kaz that one thing - it would bring me great peace to know they're working on it.)
EDIT:
Why aim to equal? It's always better to surpass.
Who, exactly, is accepting of "vacuum cleaners" in GT5? It's OK that you don't understand, though; honestly, if you put those samples in GT5, you wouldn't need to understand.
The reverb in that clip is promising in terms of its use, but it's clearly just a preset. It doesn't sound like a real outdoor environment, and it's very muddy, whereas reverb of car exhaust tends to be much "brighter" sounding (band-pass, not low-pass). It's also missing other atmospheric effects, like the comb-filtering from the reflection off the ground that gives distant cars that "washing" sound, but that's probably taking it too far (despite it being incredibly easy to reproduce!)
EDIT:
Come on, some people are perfectly ok using vacum cleaners in GT5 and someone else go fussy about GTR3 reverb... Are you kidding me??
Oh yeah baby!
Hooray for SIMBIN
Get REAL.
Why aim to equal? It's always better to surpass.
Who, exactly, is accepting of "vacuum cleaners" in GT5? It's OK that you don't understand, though; honestly, if you put those samples in GT5, you wouldn't need to understand.
The reverb in that clip is promising in terms of its use, but it's clearly just a preset. It doesn't sound like a real outdoor environment, and it's very muddy, whereas reverb of car exhaust tends to be much "brighter" sounding (band-pass, not low-pass). It's also missing other atmospheric effects, like the comb-filtering from the reflection off the ground that gives distant cars that "washing" sound, but that's probably taking it too far (despite it being incredibly easy to reproduce!)
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HKS racer
(Banned)
- 4,802
Nah griffith turn your fanboy and sound engineer mode OFF please.
I perfectly know how the reverb works and other effects as well. BUT apart from the effect and post processing gismo, it's the immersive factor that stands out. You can clearly feel the difference, PD have a looooong way to even get close to them. Seriously almost all the cars in GT5 once tuned have the same vacum cleaner/screamer noise. That want be such an easy fix as you're saying. Hopefully once GTR3 will be out PD and Kaz will realize how crappy their sound is compared to them and go back WORKING HARD on it.
I perfectly know how the reverb works and other effects as well. BUT apart from the effect and post processing gismo, it's the immersive factor that stands out. You can clearly feel the difference, PD have a looooong way to even get close to them. Seriously almost all the cars in GT5 once tuned have the same vacum cleaner/screamer noise. That want be such an easy fix as you're saying. Hopefully once GTR3 will be out PD and Kaz will realize how crappy their sound is compared to them and go back WORKING HARD on it.
- 8,725
I'm neither of those things. Cease with your bigotry, please.
Then maybe you can think about discussing this properly, instead of going all ga-ga at a single, solitary sound clip. PGR4 sounded as good as that, so we've not really ventured very far yet, have we?
Also, for there to be approximately 3000 different sounds to mix and balance, I think we can assume that the two sound guys working at PD probably have been working quite hard on the samples. It's just that they seem to be missing an awful lot of the material they need.
Make no mistake: I'm not saying GT5 has better sound overall than what was displayed on that GTR3 clip. It (the clip) shows promise, but it sounds like they're doing the same stuff they've always been doing - I await proper footage synced to video, though. My "criticisms" are my mentioning things that should be in racing games, given they're in first person shooters, and have been for some time. Understand yet? Why be as good (as what came before), when you can be better?
HKS racer
(Banned)
- 4,802
But PGR is arcade. Not a GT5 rival.
Not only the lack of meterial (samples) they deliberately cut some corners with old school GT synth noise instead of at least making sounds cetogorized by classes. I'm not asking for exactly the same sound on every damn car but at least an average V12/ V10 sound, you know, they can make about 10 different styles for different kind of cars and then modify them. Would be better than having the same noise once you add a custom gearbox.
Sure we have to wait for a gameplay footage, and soundwise there are interesting stuff in other videogame genres but we should always compare simulators with simulators. Thumbs up to fps and arcade racers but they are not sim so we can't see them as GT5 contenders you know.
To people used to vacum cleaners noize like me that new SimBin thing already sounds glorious, but if you think you can give a couple of useful tips go ahead email them, they aren't that closed minded, Everything can be improved.
- 8,725
And yet it has more realistic sounds than Forza 3 or Forza 4, or the Shifts? What does it matter? The graphics were life-like, as were the sounds. Yes, it played out as an arcade racer, but that doesn't have to have a bearing on the sound.
Cutting corners? Surely the synth (if that is indeed what it is) is filling in the gaps? I don't like some of the doctored and blended samples, and it totally escapes me why they don't have fresh samples for a lot of the newer cars (new to the series; most of the sounds I recognise from GT2), but I'm not about to start saying they're being lazy. I fully expect they're working on something, given the way other parts of the game have evolved, and the sound engine itself has evolved.
The problem is, of course, there is no "average V12 sound". You might be basing that off a pre-defined expectation from a few cars you might have recently heard that you know to be V12s. But a Lamborghini Murciélago does not sound like a Mercedes CL600, or a BMW 850, or a Ferrari 599, or a Detroit 12V-71. Thus, they need material, or they make their own somehow if it's missing, which isn't easy. So they're more likely to re-use some other sample set, not realising (or being capable of inferring) that it sounds nothing like a V12, let alone the specific V12 (and it's state of "tune") in question. Sure, a generic sound might be better than one that is inaccurate, but it's still not a solution; I suspect PD know this. Again, there's a lot of sound sets to put together.
The gearbox noise is unfortunate (I don't like it, even in real life), but I don't have a major problem with it, it doesn't really overwhelm the sound, especially in surround mode.
No, when it comes to realistic sound, genre doesn't really come into it. If you're aiming for realistic sounds, then there's only one valid comparison - other games may come closer, or implement a different set of approximations, but it's all heading in the same direction.
I don't really see why it has to involve "contention", either - does it really only ever come down to winners and losers? Surely from all the comparison threads that have been locked over the years on this one site alone, we should be able to see that each game offers a more-or-less unique set of pros and cons, the exact nature of which depends on who is compiling the list?
Developers aren't used to taking "tips" from their customers (especially given the manner in which they're normally "delivered"). Most of my efforts fall on deaf ears, which is why I was driven to try these things for myself. The changes I talk about will come in the end, though; the C.A.R.S. project, for instance, has some interesting things on their to-do list, so I'll watch that with interest.
All of that said, I'm eagerly awaiting more info on GTR3. And for improvements to GT's sound, of course, be that in GT5 (unlikely), or some future version.
- 35,556
- Addison,Texas
- GTP_RACECAR
Not sure I'm convinced I like the GTR3 sounds. I do think that there appears to be some improvement from GTR2, but not alot. Still seems to have the distorted sound that I remember vaguely from all the V12s. The sounds for when it passes by is actually far better, but its still off, like it still seems overly digitized.
Edit: Now I know we have no footage of GTR3 and this is still a work progress, but is that the Lamborghini Murcielago R-SV that those sounds are from? Its way too high pitched at top end and it has a messy distortion in the mid range.
Edit: Now I know we have no footage of GTR3 and this is still a work progress, but is that the Lamborghini Murcielago R-SV that those sounds are from? Its way too high pitched at top end and it has a messy distortion in the mid range.
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- 8,725
The "digital" sound is always going to happen with samples, because they're pitch-shifted across their usable rev range before being blended into the next sample, neither of which is a satisfactory solution as compared with what actually happens in real life.
The pitch bending causes some of the harmonics that should remain more-or-less constant (e.g. exhaust resonances) to be shifted, too, which gives it that "Keyboard" vibe.
The blending causes interference between the samples, which can make them sound flat and dull, and can even at times introduce odd phasing effects, so the blending regions are usually small, meaning the timbre tends to change "suddenly". Either way, the rev range is a patchwork quilt of different sounds, unless you use a sufficiently large number of samples.
Direct synthesis can remove both of these issues (because the resonances build and decay naturally, the exhaust pulses phase with each other continuously, not in steps etc.), but getting it to sound believable in real-time is a massive challenge, such that even direct synthesis is more readily "samplified" offline and then treated in the normal way in-game, thus nullifying one of its major advantages!
The pitch bending causes some of the harmonics that should remain more-or-less constant (e.g. exhaust resonances) to be shifted, too, which gives it that "Keyboard" vibe.
The blending causes interference between the samples, which can make them sound flat and dull, and can even at times introduce odd phasing effects, so the blending regions are usually small, meaning the timbre tends to change "suddenly". Either way, the rev range is a patchwork quilt of different sounds, unless you use a sufficiently large number of samples.
Direct synthesis can remove both of these issues (because the resonances build and decay naturally, the exhaust pulses phase with each other continuously, not in steps etc.), but getting it to sound believable in real-time is a massive challenge, such that even direct synthesis is more readily "samplified" offline and then treated in the normal way in-game, thus nullifying one of its major advantages!
- 2,059
- Under your bed.
- Ask me, man.
[sarcasm]I love how a modded M3 coupe sounds just like a modded ZR1 Corvette.[/sarcasm]
Too many recycled sounds in GT games. LF-A sounds like a Zonda R which sounds like a Murciélago which sounds like a blah blah....
Too many recycled sounds in GT games. LF-A sounds like a Zonda R which sounds like a Murciélago which sounds like a blah blah....
- 635
- Look Behind You
- fwwwm
And what does a blah blah sound like? You'd think I know because I am Blah Blah Blah... But you are right. GT has recycled sounds for sure.
- 759
- South Africa
- GTAS_PEETHAM
The sounds are poor period if you compare to real life, but with that being said, it's not the end of the world. I typical example that convinced me is when I watched Transformers 3, and heard the 458 Italia in that highway scene. For me, it's a huge difference. I think in GT5 it just needs more beef to it...
PD will get it right sometime, I'm sure.
PD will get it right sometime, I'm sure.
HKS racer
(Banned)
- 4,802
An arcade racer is just another half-assed experience, we have a decent sound ok, decent graphic ok, but not proper FFB or even no FFB at all, you can't appeal customers looking for a good simulation, if there is no simulation at all. Quite simple.
So what do you expect people to excuse PD for ever just because they have a lot of cars? If competitors can do it, PD can do it as well. Nobody askin premium sound on the crappiest models, just focus on the most interesting ones first of all. Look, if a bloody team of modders are capable of this:
People expect PD to at least get close to them, an amateur team that makes (quality) mods for free. Do you really think Enduracers go out sampling race cars all over the world? Seriously?
- 2,822
- Espoo
- GTP_Raitzi
As I have said previously remixing is the easiest fix for incar sounds. I know this because theater dimesional mode with onkyo recievers produces much better sound compared direct multichannel in GT5. (I have to send my onkyo back because they could not manage to fix the subwoofer and I get refund for the whole set, but I will send new setting recommendation for my new receiver when I get it)
- 1,409
- mileret
There were worse times when corvettes and other V8's used to sound like fourcylinders.
Now PD put some effort to sound better but their engine (due to restricted memory use) is still not good enough for experienced ear of car nut. You can hear some samples of several engines mixed together in particular cars like Murcielago which is based on V10 gallardo samples in lower revs and only highest rev sample comes from V12. You can clearly hear that. Samples are often badly pitched together and there are too few of them through the rev range. Sound engine is blending only idle, 3k and 6k rpm sample instead of 800rpm, 1200 rpm, 1600 rpm, 2400 rpm, 3600 rpm, 4800 rpm, 6000 rpm and 8000 rpm depending on particular engine and its rev range with at least three throttle position variations like cruise, half throttle, full throttle. It can't sound naturally now. Sample quality and recording is another area, you can hear F458 Italia sound well but some other cars totally wrong. The sample blending engine should be totally revamped into next game.
Otherwise the sound engine is doing pretty well in areas like doppler effect, echoes of surrounding but sound in tunnels should be much more noticeable. Multiple cars sounding the same during races are very noticeable. When player is using that car, it sounds completely different.
Their sound work is somehow skimped like always but ammount of work is certainly very huge for so many cars. Quality of sound system is only showing the weakness of engine sounds in its full glory, not making it any better. I cross my fingers for GT6, because good engine sound is almost half of experience in car game for me.
Now PD put some effort to sound better but their engine (due to restricted memory use) is still not good enough for experienced ear of car nut. You can hear some samples of several engines mixed together in particular cars like Murcielago which is based on V10 gallardo samples in lower revs and only highest rev sample comes from V12. You can clearly hear that. Samples are often badly pitched together and there are too few of them through the rev range. Sound engine is blending only idle, 3k and 6k rpm sample instead of 800rpm, 1200 rpm, 1600 rpm, 2400 rpm, 3600 rpm, 4800 rpm, 6000 rpm and 8000 rpm depending on particular engine and its rev range with at least three throttle position variations like cruise, half throttle, full throttle. It can't sound naturally now. Sample quality and recording is another area, you can hear F458 Italia sound well but some other cars totally wrong. The sample blending engine should be totally revamped into next game.
Otherwise the sound engine is doing pretty well in areas like doppler effect, echoes of surrounding but sound in tunnels should be much more noticeable. Multiple cars sounding the same during races are very noticeable. When player is using that car, it sounds completely different.
Their sound work is somehow skimped like always but ammount of work is certainly very huge for so many cars. Quality of sound system is only showing the weakness of engine sounds in its full glory, not making it any better. I cross my fingers for GT6, because good engine sound is almost half of experience in car game for me.
- 8,725
But what does that have to do with the sound? Sound which, for a long time, was the frontrunner in realism? In some ways, it still is.
A bloody team of modders can get their material from wherever they like; they're not charging for it. PD have to record it for themselves (or pay for them); they might not have recorded all parts of the car that they should have, which would explain the lack of intake (and hence, the lack of "meat" another poster mentioned).
No other game has the number of sounds to produce that GT5 has. Even Forza 4 skimps out and only allows the sounds to change for some cars, unless it's
@ Raitziger
The reason remixing works on the interior is because it uses the same positional audio as the exterior. So the engine sound always comes from off to the side in cars where you don't sit exactly central. Ideally, you'd have dedicated interior samples / mix and rely on the positional stuff for the exterior only. This is because there's more going on inside the car than just the sound coming from opposite ends of the engine; the car itself is a sound source, carrying engine vibrations, reverberating cabin, the exhaust emits sound along its entire length etc. This is why PGR4's interior sound was so good; they used dedicated stereo recordings for the interior.
@ RedBaron
Yes, the PS3 is limited in memory. At last, someone can see that sound samples have a cost! There's nothing wrong with the "blending engine", it's just a multi-sampler, and can be configured to handle as many samples as you want / can afford. Interestingly, if PD combined the exhaust and "engine" samples, like in Forza 3 and 4, then they could use more samples in the rev range, but the car would sound the same from all angles. Always compromises.
Also, you only need on- and off-throttle sound, and only for the exhaust (and interior, depending on how you're handling that). The intake (missing in GT) can just be scaled in volume, since it's largely silent off-throttle anyway, and everything else is practically constant, except for the side-loading of the pistons, but you can't really hear that over everything else unless you put your head next to the block / it's a Diesel.
I agree that they need to be braver with their reverb. It sounds nice, it's just too quiet most of the time.
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- 8,725
I wish! Trouble is, I'm no artist, nor a programmer; I can script OK, though, so that sort of limits my usefulness to an existing team. If they need an extra pair of hands to carry recording equipment, or someone to sit in a corner and shout words of encouragement, though, I can do that too! 
- 5,700
- Edison NJ
- jdmking13
- Lucid killer 58
I wish! Trouble is, I'm no artist, nor a programmer; I can script OK, though, so that sort of limits my usefulness to an existing team. If they need an extra pair of hands to carry recording equipment, or someone to sit in a corner and shout words of encouragement, though, I can do that too!
I don't know, Kaz could listen to your great Ideals and put them to use. 👍Similar threads
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