GT5 Sound Thread

[shirakawaa]

Well, the dynamic range of the recording isn't great - but then it's probably no different to wearing a helmet in the car...

By dynamic range I mean difference in volume between WOT and throttle lift-off, that is surely much greater than most racing cars videos I've seen (where sound is often very compressed/clipped) and in any Gran Turismo game.

The other thing is, that's a great example of cars of that era, which do all sound very similar to that, in terms of how the cars were tuned. Put simply, racing cars don't really sound like that anymore (there are always exceptions, mind...). If that car makes it into the game, we know we have a good point for comparison - other vids of that car have also been posted before.

I was referring to the dynamic range of the engine sound and the unusual clarity of the recording rather than the quality/timbre though.

By the way, the sound is the same for 360p through to 1080p; only 240p is different (mono) in this case.

I assumed that quality changed at each step, although I didn't check for this video when I wrote that suggestion. I can confirm too that at 360p onwards the sound quality appears to be identical in this case. I remember improvements on other videos by choosing "HD" feed quality though.

This video has also been posted before, but the engine is only a "generation" after the one in the M1, but represents 30 years of progress in tuning, and it's definitely audible if not visible!

The car is also pushed much harder, probably also better tuned (in addition to having less technological improvements as you mention) since it was actually racing to win, I suppose.

[...]In an ideal world, a game would allow for a change in sound according to what modifications are made. This isn't really practical using current game audio methods.

There are on the market software sound modules which recreate engine sounds through advanced fluid dynamics calculations by taking into accounts various engine, intake and exhaust parameters. Some games use them often in a simplified form, like Live For Speed. Since this is a rather cpu intensive task to accomplish in real time, sound samples based on the engine simulation could be created on-the-fly as modifications are applied in game, outside the race.
I think however that the main problem is that sounds created with such software can be fairly accurate but still somewhat synthetic sounding as all the materials and dynamics involved cannot be simulated perfectly.

By the way, I strongly believe that the Gran Turismo series has always used something like this for engine sounds (only not calculated in-game), with a mix of recorded samples (especially for the idle sound which can be complex to simulate). That's the only way the generally synthetic sound quality of the various GT games could be explained. If this is really the case, then they're actually quite good, for being synthesized sounds.

 

[Griffith500]

By dynamic range I mean difference in volume between WOT and throttle lift-off, that is surely much greater than most racing cars videos I've seen (where sound is often very compressed/clipped) and in any Gran Turismo game.

I was referring to the dynamic range of the engine sound and the unusual clarity of the recording rather than the quality/timbre though.

I see, well the "unusual" dynamic range is probably still, in part, due to the intake - this is the only thing that changes from off-throttle to wide open throttle, since the throttle is in the intake, and intakes aren't really like that in race machines nae more. And yes, the recording is unusual in the sense that it avoids clipping \o/

GT5 Prologue has great dynamic range built in, but you're right about the cars not being loud enough full-throttle relative to no-throttle - this would help a lot, even with the inaccurate sounds.

The car is also pushed much harder, probably also better tuned (in addition to having less technological improvements as you mention) since it was actually racing to win, I suppose.

Well being pushed harder just means the throttle might be open for longer. It doesn't really affect the sound of the engine! Aside from where the engine speed is, and the throttle position - the full range of sounds are still available, though.

There are on the market software sound modules which recreate engine sounds through advanced fluid dynamics calculations by taking into accounts various engine, intake and exhaust parameters. Some games use them often in a simplified form, like Live For Speed. Since this is a rather cpu intensive task to accomplish in real time, sound samples based on the engine simulation could be created on-the-fly as modifications are applied in game, outside the race.
I think however that the main problem is that sounds created with such software can be fairly accurate but still somewhat synthetic sounding as all the materials and dynamics involved cannot be simulated perfectly.

I'm only aware of sonory, but I don't know what their synthesis method is. Do you know what these software are called?

As far as I can tell, LFS uses a noise burst as a sound source, which is then layered and interleaved according to the firing sequence and exhaust / intake geometry - this is how I started mine, too. The pulse train is then subjected to a series of filters and delays to create the effect of the exhaust pipe and intake tract.

By the way, I strongly believe that the Gran Turismo series has always used something like this for engine sounds (only not calculated in-game), with a mix of recorded samples (especially for the idle sound which can be complex to simulate). That's the only way the generally synthetic sound quality of the various GT games could be explained. If this is really the case, then they're actually quite good, for being synthesized sounds.

Idle sounds of race machines are difficult, because of the unstable lope caused by the aggressive cams. For ordinary road cars with a nice heavy flywheel, they sound OK from synthesis. GT's synth has been very basic as far as I can tell - most recently, we've got the noise of the gas flow from the exhaust tips, and the same into the intake - this is quite convincing in my opinion. GT still mostly relies on samples, which is the "problem" really, given they tend to be off the mark in one way or another.

 

[shirakawaa]

Other than Sonory (I didn't really remember its name, thanks for refreshing my memory) and what is used by LFS I don't know much else. I remember there was one made by a GTPlanet forum user many years ago (but I hope I'm not confusing things/forums). The user claimed the software accurately modeled engine sounds by making use of fluid dynamics calculations. It felt "right", however was very synthethic sounding. There were variuos demo provided in .exe files for Windows. I don't know if you remember that.

The Sonory software you provided a link to, sounds very believable in comparison. The best one in my opinion is the V6 engine. The other examples provided somehow don't feel as realistic.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

Anyone know if the PS3, handles real time sound fx ?.

S&S.

 

[Killa Aaron]

Anyone know if the PS3, handles real time sound fx ?.

S&S.

seriously, you did not just ask this stupid question, it's not the PS1 aka 1997 bro.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

What !.

 

[Griffith500]

Other than Sonory (I didn't really remember its name, thanks for refreshing my memory) and what is used by LFS I don't know much else. I remember there was one made by a GTPlanet forum user many years ago (but I hope I'm not confusing things/forums). The user claimed the software accurately modeled engine sounds by making use of fluid dynamics calculations. It felt "right", however was very synthethic sounding. There were variuos demo provided in .exe files for Windows. I don't know if you remember that.

The Sonory software you provided a link to, sounds very believable in comparison. The best one in my opinion is the V6 engine. The other examples provided somehow don't feel as realistic.

I'm quite impressed with the American V8 - it's not generic, and actually sounds like a Chevy unit, even down to the exhaust. But yes, there are odd artifacts. I'll have scour of the interwebs for these demos you mentioned, I'll report back if I find anything good!

What !.

Indeed! Perhaps you should elaborate: do you mean realtime as in each sample channel is refreshed in real-time instead of only at creation (the latter is usually with incidental sounds, like collisions, explosions, gunshots etc.) or do you mean procedurally generated in real time?

 

[Smoke&Slide]

I guess it'd be the generated sound effects Griff.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

Frankly I'm insulted by the comparison to those monsters of the sky! Your vid of the SLS is no different to the one I posted, either.

EDIT: The 300 SL might be a better comparison, though it sounds like a straight 6. Comparing something of the same era as that Messerschmidt aircraft is difficult, though - most don't get run properly! Unless they're race models, like the W125;

Hm, those old silver arrows were beasts. After the last historical Monaco GP, Jackie Ickx said that modern (race) cars felt like toy compared to the old Auto Unions and Mercedes race cars.
If Kaz has a little bit of petrol in his blood, he will give us one of those cars with proper sounds! 👍

 

[terminator363]

they should use lawn mowers for sounds kind of like IL2 Sturmovik!

 

[Griffith500]

I guess it'd be the generated sound effects Griff.

I read somewhere that Sony's Audio API has built-in DSP-style support, so direct realtime synthesis shouldn't be a problem. In fact, this sort of audio has been used since the original Playstation (Gran Turismo used it), and the SPUs are perfect for procedural sound streams.

Hm, those old silver arrows were beasts. After the last historical Monaco GP, Jackie Ickx said that modern (race) cars felt like toy compared to the old Auto Unions and Mercedes race cars.
If Kaz has a little bit of petrol in his blood, he will give us one of those cars with proper sounds! 👍

[vid]

Oh yes! Fast burning, high-octane fuel coupled with ridiculous boost levels giving rise to massive compression in the cylinders and that lovely bark, cackle and spit to the exhaust note as the pressure is released by the exhaust cam.
We had the pre-second-world-war Type-C Auto Union (streamline) in GT4, there's probably hope for more!

 

[Smoke&Slide]

BRM V16 please with that luuuurvly melody.

 

[CoolColJ]

Finally got a TVR Tuscan Speed 6 today in Prologue and it sounds pretty good, a throaty yowl 👍
Much better than in GT4



real, followed by a Shelby Cobra

 

[RedBaron]

Finally got a TVR Tuscan Speed 6 today in Prologue and it sounds pretty good, a throaty yowl 👍
Much better than in GT4



real, followed by a Shelby Cobra

and PGR4 sound of Sagaris (also that straight six). You can feel that highest rev immersion, in Prologue it sounds very flat.



Edit: And Sagaris in natura, sounds exaggerated too, including awful throttle blips after clutching )

 

[shirakawaa]

While the PGR4 version overall feels more natural, it has that very weird "blip" effect while shifting up that I find annoying. Other games have something similar too (Forza has some kind of strange clutch slip transition. Enthusia for PS2 too). The game designers probably intended it to be "realistic" but in my opinion it gives exactly opposite effect.

Both games however, still fail to display those "piercing detonations" at high rpms and load (ok, I know they're not really "detonations"). There's some bassy raspy sound (in the case of GT5P a vast improvement over GT4 by the way), but they're still not there. I can't understand why they can't get that right in any driving sim. They all sound too "smooth" and tame. If you close your eyes and listen you can immediately tell.

 

[Zonda_Guy]

Well PGR4 exaggerates a lot of sounds also.

 

[TheDrummingKING]

they should use lawn mowers for sounds kind of like IL2 Sturmovik!

This doesn't actually have anything to do with what you wrote.. It's about your sig, Richard Hammond said it, not Jeremy.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

IL2 BOP engine sounds are pretty good, but not loud enough.Anyone else own it ?.The problem with GT games, is you can't hear the bowels of the engine chiming away.Basically removed all the drama, you get each time you push the throttle through the floor.

 

[Griffith500]

Finally got a TVR Tuscan Speed 6 today in Prologue and it sounds pretty good, a throaty yowl 👍
Much better than in GT4

[vids]

It does sound better than in GT4, but it does use exactly the same samples (it still has the bad loop)! Perhaps this is a good indicator of what the standard cars will sound like; i.e. pretty much as they do in GTSP but with all the extra polish from the engine.

Unless, PD re-do all the sounds (including the Tuscan).

While the PGR4 version overall feels more natural, it has that very weird "blip" effect while shifting up that I find annoying. Other games have something similar too (Forza has some kind of strange clutch slip transition. Enthusia for PS2 too). The game designers probably intended it to be "realistic" but in my opinion it gives exactly opposite effect.

Both games however, still fail to display those "piercing detonations" at high rpms and load (ok, I know they're not really "detonations"). There's some bassy raspy sound (in the case of GT5P a vast improvement over GT4 by the way), but they're still not there. I can't understand why they can't get that right in any driving sim. They all sound too "smooth" and tame. If you close your eyes and listen you can immediately tell.

The gear changes in Prologue, provided you use a manual clutch are very realistic sounding. Otherwise they're not too bad, except downshifts which are impeccable, as always.

By "piercing detonations" do you in fact mean the exhaust being overdriven at high gas flow and high rpms? Because of the stochastic nature of engine sounds, and hence the way the timbre changes with rpm (without the exhaust), more and more energy is put into the exhaust as the engine speed rises, but it is spread over a lot of frequencies. Despite this, the exhaust (if we imagine it as a waveguide) gets overdriven, and odd (non-linear) things happen whereby new frequencies are introduced as a result of the re-distribution of energy - highly dependent on the waveguide materials and, more importantly, geometry and mounting. The effect is increased by the removal of "resonators", which act a bit like notch filters and hence reduce the overall energy in the waveguide, preferably around the frequencies related to the new distortion-induced sidebands - i.e. through testing; although some manufacturers exploit the phenomenon - e.g. "F1" style exhausts.
Unfortunately, it is also a transient effect and hence should not be incorporated into samples (which are static), since it builds at one point and dissipates at another according to many factors, not just current rpm, but also the previous rpm, and the previous state of the waveguide. A job for synthesis, in other words. Hence why no game has got it right.

Unless you meant the actual combustion phase (maybe ~ 3-4 milliseconds on a petrol / gasoline car) which can only be heard through the engine block, unless you're running some pretty "interesting" cam timings, or have fuel in the exhaust

That said, you can still hear the cylinder "ringing" a tiny bit when the exhaust valve opens (and the intake), which is modulated by the piston rising and falling in the cylinder, giving a very cool underlying effect, which isn't normally audible in cars because they run too fast. It's clearly audible in this video, though most of the noise is due to the cylinder pressure equalising with the exhaust / intake "manifolds", rather than the combustion.

IL2 BOP engine sounds are pretty good, but not loud enough.Anyone else own it ?.The problem with GT games, is you can't hear the bowels of the engine chiming away.Basically removed all the drama, you get each time you push the throttle through the floor.

A good engine recording will give you the sound of the internals; especially if the oil is cold.
In fact, this is probably true of all of PD's recordings that weren't done on a rolling-road / dynamometer / whatever.
It's possible to remove the sounds through filtering, though I don't know why they would; at any rate, listening to some cars, it seems they're very proud of their engine block recordings

 

[shirakawaa]

The gear changes in Prologue, provided you use a manual clutch are very realistic sounding. Otherwise they're not too bad, except downshifts which are impeccable, as always.

That is good news. I haven't played Prologue, but I did try the Time Trial and noticed there that gear changes were much faster than the biblical times of previous games (basically the game was doing rev-matching even while shifting up. That is something really needed only with large and heavy unsynchronized manual transmissions).

By "piercing detonations" do you in fact mean the exhaust being overdriven at high gas flow and high rpms? Because of the stochastic nature of engine sounds, and hence the way the timbre changes with rpm (without the exhaust), more and more energy is put into the exhaust as the engine speed rises, but it is spread over a lot of frequencies. Despite this, the exhaust (if we imagine it as a waveguide) gets overdriven, and odd (non-linear) things happen whereby new frequencies are introduced as a result of the re-distribution of energy - highly dependent on the waveguide materials and, more importantly, geometry and mounting. The effect is increased by the removal of "resonators", which act a bit like notch filters and hence reduce the overall energy in the waveguide, preferably around the frequencies related to the new distortion-induced sidebands - i.e. through testing; although some manufacturers exploit the phenomenon - e.g. "F1" style exhausts.
Unfortunately, it is also a transient effect and hence should not be incorporated into samples (which are static), since it builds at one point and dissipates at another according to many factors, not just current rpm, but also the previous rpm, and the previous state of the waveguide. A job for synthesis, in other words. Hence why no game has got it right.

Yes, I meant that spread in frequencies, often "metallic-sounding" that happens under heavy load at high rpms especially on high power or tuned cars, coming mainly from the exhaust.

Unless you meant the actual combustion phase (maybe ~ 3-4 milliseconds on a petrol / gasoline car) which can only be heard through the engine block, unless you're running some pretty "interesting" cam timings, or have fuel in the exhaust

To tell the truth I also meant that too. Many times on real videos, compared to their counterparts from sim games, cars seem to have more "impact" from the combustion phase. As I wrote multiple times, it's as if car sounds in games have had their peaks removed. The result is something that is similar to the original samples (in GT5P generally more than GT4), but that feels muddy, smoothened, less rich, less aggressive. I don't know if you've read about the tuba sound example I made a few days ago. That "fluttering", low frequency (but containing many secondary higher frequencies too) effect when a very low pitch note is played is what is missing from most engine sounds in car simulations.

Then there are cases where samples are simply poor, and you can tell that immediately because they either feel very synthetic, have artifacts or are just plain wrong.

That said, you can still hear the cylinder "ringing" a tiny bit when the exhaust valve opens (and the intake), which is modulated by the piston rising and falling in the cylinder, giving a very cool underlying effect, which isn't normally audible in cars because they run too fast. It's clearly audible in this video, though most of the noise is due to the cylinder pressure equalising with the exhaust / intake "manifolds", rather than the combustion.

A good engine recording will give you the sound of the internals; especially if the oil is cold.
In fact, this is probably true of all of PD's recordings that weren't done on a rolling-road / dynamometer / whatever.
It's possible to remove the sounds through filtering, though I don't know why they would; at any rate, listening to some cars, it seems they're very proud of their engine block recordings

I don't know if this is why engine sounds in most games sound poor, not very natural; my impression is always that they lack something more fundamental than that.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

You cant forget about how the resonance tuning (especially in N/A cars) effects the sound pitch at different RPM's. Honda vtec engines, and Mazda Rotaries are good examples of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-2v_YP0ctw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhWFw_n3USc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRulUV2D3s8

The sound gets way more dense at high RPMs

 

[Griffith500]

It doesn't need VTEC to show up the effect

Although, low-restriction breathing gives the best impression on any car; and the cams on that escort were probably not normal road-spec, either.

 

[CoolColJ]

More like mics "suck" compared to our ears...

and speakers "suck" compared to the real sound source

plus digital audio "sucks" vs analog sound generation

 

[sp0rk]

There is something all too "pure" about GT's sounds. It sounds...clean. And muffled.

A stock VW Beetle should sound clean and muffled. A GT1 racer? When a real GT1 racer is on the gas hard, it's blisteringly loud. The trees echo the sound when the car is far off before you even hear the car itself, it's LOUD. When a GT1 car shifts or goes over a bump under power, the engine warbles as does the straight-cut gear whine. If there's loose gravel on the road, you can hear it scrape and bounce underneath the floor as you drive over it.

I want to hear ALL that. It's 2010 and we're developing a game for PlayStation 3 here, it's way past doable so lets do it.

 

[skip101]

lets do it ay, yeah! Lets do it!

 

[pervert]

I really hope they make the effort in the sound department this time round, the sound in GT has always been appalling (this coming from a die hard GT fan). I don't have a 360 or forza but the sound, while not perfect, is at least clearly different for each car... ie...

 

[Griffith500]

You know, I'm confused as to how people can think the cars in GT4 don't sound different from one another; sure one or two samples are re-used, but come on there were over 9000 700 cars in that game!

GT5 uses the same / a similar sampling system but runs it through what seems like a totally new audio engine. It's nothing short of superb, once the samples are at the right level.

Yes, there does appear to be an odd taint to the sound, particularly at higher rpm that does seem to be unique to GT games since GT3, but Forza's sound has some quirks that carry over from car to car - namely the aliasing from a slow control rate (i.e. the rate at which control variables update, such as rpm, throttle position etc. in the audio engine.) which gives some interesting overtones in external views, or when revving the engine. These sound the same from car to car. Most other racing games have this problem, too.

GT does not.

So...

As has been ascertained many many many times in this thread already, it's a case of swings and roundabouts - no game is perfect, they all have their quirks - it's just that GT seems to have its own unique set of quirks. Most people are used to the other quirks, so GT's quirks stand out a bit to them.

Sadly, GT has another perceived weakness on top of these quirks: samples.
The samples can be badly mixed or just plain wrong. My guess has always been that this is due to poor artistic direction; reminiscent of a stubborn old man

 

[Slurm]

Someone posted this in the general discussion topic. Looks like some changes have been made since last time we heard that corvette!!!

 

[speedfreak69]

I really hope they make the effort in the sound department this time round, the sound in GT has always been appalling (this coming from a die hard GT fan). I don't have a 360 or forza but the sound, while not perfect, is at least clearly different for each car... ie...

Griff, there's no need to diminish the Polyphony's sound department fail. However big fan of GT I am, I'm also the first to admit its faults and also give credit to other games where credit is due. PD may have better audio engine( Doppler effect, sound positioning, allows for high quality samples), but what's that really worth when they obviously fail so much in regards to their samples, either they're poorly recorded, poorly mixed or just wrong(instances where you have a V8 and a four pot sounding the same), that's just not acceptable. This vid shows how Forza menages to achieve pretty good likeness to the original target sounds, despite some of the cars sounding a bit weird(DBR9) and poor environmental attributes of the sound(almost sounds like they're in a room). I know I would much rather have forza's impreza(which is instantly recognizable and makes me want to nail that go pedal to the floor) than the sterile something-maybe-a bit like-impreza sound that GT achieves...Still, I hope a new set of samples is PD's ace in the sleeve for the full game, much like they revealed damage suddenly...

 

[Timppaq]

What brings me faith for the sounds is that Kaz said two most improved areas are the driving feel and the sounds..

Taking the SLS for example, the sounds sounded like with a good system (=not tv speakers in a expo hall) it would be great. The Ferraris are a bit of mystery to me though..