GT5 Sound Thread
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McLaren
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You're not. It's a video of an Amuse S2000 GT1 against a video of a tuned Honda S2000 that doesn't change the sound from a stock one. It's as dumb as the tuned Viper ACR against the Viper CC videos.
Trying to continue to brag about how complex GT's sounds are over Forza doesn't mean anything when a car like the Viper sounds like anything but a V10. Get the engine sound right, then work on the details.
- 4,878
- CoolColJ, GTP_CoolColJ
GT5's sound engine is more complex - talking about the processing and the sound layers. Forza lacks wind and road noise, no doppler effect (!) and just one mashed up together sound layer, that just varies in volume.
And this is just GT5 Prologue as well, the Time Trial was more complex, and GT5 proper should be what we judge things on. Based on what I hear, the Time Trial has the best Doppler effect in any game yet. None of that artifical sounding pitch shifting I hear in other games
here is a better vid of the GT5
Viper
I do know from playing the game, the sound varies quite a bit from each view of the car
And this is just GT5 Prologue as well, the Time Trial was more complex, and GT5 proper should be what we judge things on. Based on what I hear, the Time Trial has the best Doppler effect in any game yet. None of that artifical sounding pitch shifting I hear in other games
here is a better vid of the GT5
ViperI do know from playing the game, the sound varies quite a bit from each view of the car
McLaren
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I'm not saying it isn't. However, I see no reason why the effort was put in the details of the sound layers ahead of making the cars themselves actually sound realistic.
It's a little hard to think, "Man, the doppler effect is great" when all I hear from the Viper is the sound of 4 or 6 cylinder. That video was also unbearable; those tire sounds are wretched.
- 4,878
- CoolColJ, GTP_CoolColJ
I'm not saying it isn't. However, I see no reason why the effort was put in the details of the sound layers ahead of making the cars themselves actually sound realistic.
It's a little hard to think, "Man, the doppler effect is great" when all I hear from the Viper is the sound of 4 or 6 cylinder. That video was also unbearable; those tire sounds are wretched.
Well the tyre and engine sounds changed between each of the 3 Spec updates in GT5
. And then the tyre sounds changed once again in the Time trial, and again also sounds different in the recent demosWhy wouldn't you have a nice "operating system" that you can run your programs on? At least your programs you install in it can improve over time and make use of all the features, instead of being stuck with DOS to run your "programs" ...
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But because they are mostly aggressive GT cars, these "crappy" samples might lack in complexity, but they deliver much more effect than GT seems to (in terms of aggressiveness)
Well the tyre and engine sounds changed between each of the 3 Spec updates in GT5
Why wouldn't you have a nice "operating system" that you can run your programs on? At least your programs you install in it can improve over time and make use of all the features, instead of being stuck with DOS to run your "programs" ...
So what you are saying here is, they spend all this time making this complex sound engine, that lets be honest, could sound better.
Yet because it is a complex sound engine, updates could eventually add to it and make it ROCK. GT6 maybe?
McLaren
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Sorry, but that time is up. 5 years of work is more than enough time to build the "foundation" & then improve upon it.Why wouldn't you have a nice "operating system" that you can run your programs on? At least your programs you install in it can improve over time and make use of all the features, instead of being stuck with DOS to run your "programs" ...
- 4,878
- CoolColJ, GTP_CoolColJ
Off course didn't Kaz say they dumped all the legacy code from GT4 and began afresh? GT5rologue still had the some GT4 legacy code, so anything after the Time Trial is considered new I guess.
Why don't we listen to some real Viper sounds?
Here is a real tuned Viper on Tsukuba
Listen to all the wind and road noise on the drivebys
rologue still had the some GT4 legacy code, so anything after the Time Trial is considered new I guess.Why don't we listen to some real Viper sounds?
Here is a real tuned Viper on Tsukuba
Listen to all the wind and road noise on the drivebys
- 8,725
Oh 🤬! Somebody'd better tell Kaz; he's in sooo much trouble now...
Seriously. Get a grip.
The sound engine is as important as the samples - just because the approach so far hasn't impressed you, it doesn't mean it's a pointless endeavour in general. You've got to start somewhere, and you need to work on both engine and content to be used with that engine simultaneously, otherwise you won't get the best optimisation. And don't give me that crap about PD starting in 1997, either. Proper, recorded samples were first used in GT2, and they were low-fi at best. Like CoolColJ said, GT5's architecture is supposedly scratch-built - I would challenge you to do better, but it's obviously not your area of expertise, and we don't know how many people are / have been involved with the sound development at PD. Plus, it's likely (in my opinion) the sounds in GT5
were actually developed for GTSP, which uses a completely different sound engine and approach to sound in general. If this is true, the selected sounds used in GT5 would have been tweaked a touch to work / balance in the new engine, but they're still PS2-era loops - some of which I know quite well.And if you think that S2000 in the Forza 3 video sounds stock, then I don't see why we should take your opinion on car sounds seriously at all. Unless I've misunderstood?
On a more serious note, I have hope for the tyre sounds, given the claims that the dynamics of tyre-surface contact were modeled in order to develop the new smoke effects (which are themselves non-final). This means they have a whole slew of new ways to approach the sound, since it is simply a function of the tread pattern and road surface, among a few peculiarities due to the tyre material itself (I've heard it described as "trans-phase" but the best description I can find refers to Transformers...) That means the squealing could be synthesised alongside an updated road noise sound - might get rid of the fatigue of listening to cross-faded loops.
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- opladener
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I don't know about the technical details, what I know is that they sound much better and more life-like to me than anything that PD has ever produced.
This is what counts to me, I don't care how they do it as long as a racing Vette sounds like a beast and not like a kitchen appliance (like in GT4)
The C6 Z06 in Prologue sounds much better already, so maybe there is hope.
- 8,725
I remember being mightily impressed with GTR when I first had a crack with the Morgan Aero 8; that thing sounded great. Then the novelty wore off, and I started noticing all the annoying nuances that every other game has.
McLaren
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I'll "get a grip" when PD stop managing to muck up car engines.
After this many years of work, the only thing about the game's sound worth mentioning is the complexity of it, rather than the accuracy of it is my point.The sound engine is as important as the samples - just because the approach so far hasn't impressed you, it doesn't mean it's a pointless endeavour in general. You've got to start somewhere, and you need to work on both engine and content to be used with that engine simultaneously, otherwise you won't get the best optimisation. And don't give me that crap about PD starting in 1997, either. Proper, recorded samples were first used in GT2, and they were low-fi at best. Like CoolColJ said, GT5's architecture is supposedly scratch-built - I would challenge you to do better, but it's obviously not your area of expertise, and we don't know how many people are / have been involved with the sound development at PD. Plus, it's likely (in my opinion) the sounds in GT5
There's honestly no reason why both the complexity & accuracy should not be both acquired by now. I would even let it go if it were just some of the previous GT cars that were off, but even the new ones like the LP560-4 have been done wrong.
I said it's a post comparing an Amuse S2000 GT1 to a S2000 that's sound never changes even when tuned just like the Elise, so no point in Zero mentioning it both cars being tuned.
- 8,725
I'll "get a grip" when PD stop managing to muck up car engines.
After this many years of work, the only thing about the game's sound worth mentioning is the complexity of it, rather than the accuracy of it is my point.
There's honestly no reason why both the complexity & accuracy should not be both acquired by now. I would even let it go if it were just some of the previous GT cars that were off, but even the new ones like the LP560-4 have been done wrong.
I said it's a post comparing an Amuse S2000 GT1 to a S2000 that's sound never changes even when tuned just like the Elise, so no point in Zero mentioning it both cars being tuned.
Well, to be fair, all you've seen are pre-production demos and one mostly-legacy release. Like I said, you go away and do better and maybe I'll take your point on board. The truth is, you have no idea how long it should take.
Regarding accuracy and complexity, you'll note that no racing game has this. So your point, being levelled at PD like it was, was actually folly. Honestly, this is precisely the kind of frustration that resonates through the gaming culture (and not just gamers - developers also complain of the stunted progress in the field of game audio.)
Your point about the S2000 is also lacking any kind of sense; why care whether it changes from stock when the comparison itself isn't about things changing from a base-line, rather the accuracy (and complexity) of the two very different approaches to audio in the two games?
If the S2000 sounds like that stock, then it brings the rather large doubt of whether Forza's sound really is as accurate as people say it is - especially given that it's far from the first example of an inaccurate stock sound.
And you could spout some crap along the lines of it not being about absolute accuracy, about some "capturing the essence" (is there only one essence?) of the sound -type rubbish. If that's the case, I'm sure the same could be said of any game. Hey, it's an artist's impression at the end of the day, and who are we to question the artists' vision; to say it's not art?
Essentially, it doesn't come down to whose approach better suits your aural requirements (mainly because no one game does it properly); for me, it's about actually caring for the job in hand. PD always seem to come at the problem afresh, from a new angle, every time they implement something new or "borrowed" from something else. I'd much rather they kept at it until they got it right, rather than recycle 20-year old technology, hang a few fairy-lights on it and say "that'll do". It's the same attitude that makes German cars so revered; it's the same attitude that made Rolls Royce what they are today; it's the same attitude that prevails in Formula 1, et al.
Do you not think PD deserve bonus points for actually trying?
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You have good points Griff, but you do understand people rarely stand back and appreciate the potential of the audio engine instead of what is immediately heard, a sum of all parts of the engine. In this case, the sum, it appears, seems to be less than all of the parts put together. I'd like to think I have some experience and that I can judge both the parts and the sum, and in the end, it is, if not disappointing, certainly frustrating, to have a good basis and specs of the engine, but to be let down by the most audible part, which is the engine samples themselves! Anyways, I'm still clinging to the hope that most of what we've heard are just placeholders, a lot of them clearly from past GT titles, for the real thing to come. So, until then, don't allow yourself to get riled up by people's opinions, because most of them are just honest accounts of what they actually hear, and although they perhaps can't explain why they don't like it, the point is, they shouldn't even have to, and I consider their concern a genuine one.
Let's hope Gamescom clears at least some of those doubts...
Let's hope Gamescom clears at least some of those doubts...
McLaren
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I know it should not take this long. Too many other games have managed so better accuracy.
Sorry, but no. What I said was truth. The only thing worth bragging about regarding GT's sound is its complexity. The accuracy however, is off & should be much better by the game's "5th" title.
There is absolutely zero reason why PD can not produce an accurate sound of an American V8 or V10.
Subtle way of excusing the game's poor engine sounds.
In the sound department, barely. The average gamer will hardly give the doppler effect & wind noise any thought over the actual car. Hard to appreciate those things when all I hear is a Dodge Charger making the sound of a I4.
- 8,725
You know nothing of the sort. Name those ("too many") games and I'll tell you why you're wrong on each and every count.
What you said was conjecture and nothing more. The accuracy in any game is "off" - it's just that "kids" like the inaccuracies in most games, because that's what they've grown up with, particularly Need For Speed, tFnF etc.
Maybe they don't like you? Yeah I'm pretty sure that's it. Oh wait, they have produced an accurate sounding V10, the one in the Viper GTS (and the SRT-10, to a marginally lesser extent) and a cross-plane V8 in the 'Vette Z06 and Ford GT - the F40's flat plane's not too bad, either, for an "add-on".
In addition, I'm pretty sure the sounds for all the tuned cars were pulled out of thin air - that would explain the lack of personality in all of the sounds. I'm also sure almost nobody notices that the tuned Cappuccino sounds wrong, too - it's a three-cylinder, not four.
"Subtle" way of excusing any game's sounds, genius. I wasn't using it as an argument, or excuse at any rate - it was in anticipation of a potential attempt at weaseling (see above.)
What Dodge Charger?
I'm glad PD don't focus on "the actual car", since it's this approach in Forza 3, among other games, that kills the immersion for me. If PD get the samples right this time around, the average gamer will be blown away. They might not know why, and it'll still be far from perfect, but hopefully it'll mean the bar has been raised and gamers / devs will demand more from future games. Win-win.
McLaren
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I never said other games were more accurate, but in fact, most are. The problem is you don't think any game is accurate so PD gets a pass for their terrible sounds b/c you say so.
Nobody is going to notice the sound complexity when the cars sound like crap except for obviously you. Then again, you have a highly over opinionated view of yourself when it comes sound.
The only thing PD do is capture the what the car generally sounds like. They completely botch the Vipers & the Corvette on how they should sound WOT just like the Gallardo & newer Ferraris.
If you think these are accurate, you're really in no position to tell me I'm wrong.
It's obvious they aren't if this is what they're producing right now.
- 8,725
No, I criticise PD's approach just as much as anybody else. I try to be constructive, and look at the bigger picture, that's all.
Sorry? Please explain (Via PM, if necessary) - I assume you're stating that you think me to be over-opinionated, rather than that I see myself as over-opinionated?
It's a weak point anyway, seeing as I've always said I'm an amateur; I do, however, spend a lot of time listening and researching for my own projects - care to share notes?
And that's different from other games how?
I hope the irony here isn't lost on you.
If what is what they are producing right now? Do you have some access to PD's resources; their assets and codebase? Do you have a pre-final build of GT5 to hand? Have I missed something?
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The problem I have with you, McLaren, is that you state that PD have had more than enough time to lay the foundation (presumably the engine) and improve upon it. Yet, I doubt you even have the slightest inkling as to what said "improvement" entails. (Maybe you've an inflated opinion of yourself, or have over-estimated your competence in this field?)
If PD had gone the route of every other developer and stuck to standard wavetable synthesis (as in Forza, etc.) they may well have got a good balance from it (like GT2, quite impressive for its time and the platform and the game's overall technical "balance"). But they're trying to do more than that; they make things difficult for themselves (presumably) in the hope that what they have in the end is something unique, and one step above everything else. If it were Turn10 doing this, I would laud them equally. But they're not, and not really pushing the boundaries (technically as well as artistically) of the technology they are using at all. Granted, the X360 isn't quite as adaptable as the PS3, although I think I'm right in saying it is much "easier" to manage memory-intensive tasks, like sound.
Sure, the average gamer "might not notice" the subtleties of aerodynamic noise, or atmospheric scattering combined with doppler shift, but once exposed to it, i.e. your ignorance to it is halted, then its absence becomes apparent - even if you might not know exactly what it is that is missing.
Then again, of course, nobody really pays any attention to the sounds they hear around them from day to day, and this applies to cars as well - so your average person isn't likely to notice anything being missing. I had to learn to recognise the different components of the sound that a car makes, to learn to recognise things like cylinder count / arrangement (it's not as easy as you might think) and there is still a lot that baffles me about how the exact same car can sound so different (not in recordings, but to my own ears, in the car's presence) in different situations - it still sounds like the same car, but the balance of its sound is markedly different (I need to find a good example).
Samples (alone) don't (currently) do this effect justice, it requires far more sophistication / complexity.
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- FanofGT5
Now that i've seen the car & track list, i want to dance on the moon.Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease match all the exact noises & most of the effects KY & his team of master game builders.Once again PD exceeded my expections, so you all have my sincere round of applause 
👍 
.Well done PD.
👍 .Well done PD.I'm sorry, but for a racing class Corvette to sound like an inline 6 engine is just terrible in my opinion, and yet I'm saying other developers have enough sense not to make that mistake. It's just a pure insult to car enthusiasts, and it's no better for a viper to sound like that either.
If PD isn't going to even try to make realistic engine noise for all the cars, then at least give us a generic, but identifiable sounding engine note.
Do you all get what I mean. For example, if PD has a Camaro Z28 and they don't have the resources to make a heavily detailed sounding V8 engine, don't give us good sounding V6 or V12 sounding engine for the Camaro, just give us generic sounding V8, at least it stays more true to the car and doesn't completely strip the vehicle of its identity.
And also, these exhaust upgrades completely changing the engine noise have to go. If I upgrade the exhaust of my Subaru WRX, I still want it to sound like a WRX just with more power and more grumble to it, not sound like some JGTC GTR. This happened when I decided to upgrade the exhaust of my Audi S4 and the nice V8 engine note it had was transformed into a high pitch 6 cylinder. Those things annoy the crap out of me. I may sound like I'm whining, but why should PD make things hard for themselves and gain more negative criticism, if they can't give us good exhaust upgrade sound changes, just don't include the sound change, It won't make me like the game any less, for some cars I don't even put the upgrade on it, because it sounds terrible.
Well I could add more to my rant, but that is it for now.
If PD isn't going to even try to make realistic engine noise for all the cars, then at least give us a generic, but identifiable sounding engine note.
Do you all get what I mean. For example, if PD has a Camaro Z28 and they don't have the resources to make a heavily detailed sounding V8 engine, don't give us good sounding V6 or V12 sounding engine for the Camaro, just give us generic sounding V8, at least it stays more true to the car and doesn't completely strip the vehicle of its identity.
And also, these exhaust upgrades completely changing the engine noise have to go. If I upgrade the exhaust of my Subaru WRX, I still want it to sound like a WRX just with more power and more grumble to it, not sound like some JGTC GTR. This happened when I decided to upgrade the exhaust of my Audi S4 and the nice V8 engine note it had was transformed into a high pitch 6 cylinder. Those things annoy the crap out of me. I may sound like I'm whining, but why should PD make things hard for themselves and gain more negative criticism, if they can't give us good exhaust upgrade sound changes, just don't include the sound change, It won't make me like the game any less, for some cars I don't even put the upgrade on it, because it sounds terrible.
Well I could add more to my rant, but that is it for now.
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- 8,725
I see your point. The modifications are always hit and miss, owing to the large number of cars and of the mods themselves. I don't know of any game (well, there are only a handful in the same category) that is wholly consistent with this over each and every car.
It does seem that PD pull some random sounds out of their collective arse sometimes - or just fall back on that skyline loop (good though it is).
The problem is, depending on the exact mods, it is quite possible for a car to lose its character as a result of an exhaust upgrade. Usually, that's compensated for with volume
Any engine that is uneven firing (or is uneven between banks, like the cross-plane V8) will usually retain its character even with race-type manifolds, e.g. NASCAR engines, Metro 6R4 etc. However, cars like the original GT40 used "180-degree headers" which lessen the V8 rumble somewhat. It still sounds awesome, because it has open headers, of course - and it still has a V8 intake sound.
It's quite possible to make your WRX sound rather "indistinct" with exhaust upgrades, mind.
I personally think that the poor sounds of modified V8s etc. is largely down to ignorance on PD's part, and I mean that without insult. It seems as tough they simply don't know what it should sound like. I don't suppose there are that many (comparatively speaking) modified V8s rolling around in Japan. It doesn't excuse them, but it might explain it.
By the way, I think you're the first to comment that the tuned 'Vette sounds like a 6 cyl. motor; most say it sounds like a "four-banger" - with the obvious sneer and distaste that has come to accompany such a term...
It does seem that PD pull some random sounds out of their collective arse sometimes - or just fall back on that skyline loop (good though it is).
The problem is, depending on the exact mods, it is quite possible for a car to lose its character as a result of an exhaust upgrade. Usually, that's compensated for with volume
Any engine that is uneven firing (or is uneven between banks, like the cross-plane V8) will usually retain its character even with race-type manifolds, e.g. NASCAR engines, Metro 6R4 etc. However, cars like the original GT40 used "180-degree headers" which lessen the V8 rumble somewhat. It still sounds awesome, because it has open headers, of course - and it still has a V8 intake sound.
It's quite possible to make your WRX sound rather "indistinct" with exhaust upgrades, mind.
I personally think that the poor sounds of modified V8s etc. is largely down to ignorance on PD's part, and I mean that without insult. It seems as tough they simply don't know what it should sound like. I don't suppose there are that many (comparatively speaking) modified V8s rolling around in Japan. It doesn't excuse them, but it might explain it.
By the way, I think you're the first to comment that the tuned 'Vette sounds like a 6 cyl. motor; most say it sounds like a "four-banger" - with the obvious sneer and distaste that has come to accompany such a term...
- 11,949
- Marin County
I think polyphony is quite capable of making each and every car sound fairly accurate with whatever synthesized sound engine they use.
For instance, listen to the RGT from GT3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCkAgSrwEso&feature=related
compare it to this real life video of a 911
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE3Zjcngj74
edit: for god's sakes how does this embed feature work on this damn site??
They have matched the overal 'feel' of the sound very well. They both have that awesome low end growl that the Porsche flat six is known for. But you don't get that 'loopy' sound like many other racing games.
The problem, it seems, is they are not so dilligent with every car. Perhaps the issue is the fact that they are a small team and that acquiring access to these cars for extended dyno sessions is difficult. The other problem is their refusal of intake noise. I think that the 200 premium cars will sound excellent, while the others will sound basically the same as they always have.
For instance, listen to the RGT from GT3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCkAgSrwEso&feature=related
compare it to this real life video of a 911
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE3Zjcngj74
edit: for god's sakes how does this embed feature work on this damn site??
They have matched the overal 'feel' of the sound very well. They both have that awesome low end growl that the Porsche flat six is known for. But you don't get that 'loopy' sound like many other racing games.
The problem, it seems, is they are not so dilligent with every car. Perhaps the issue is the fact that they are a small team and that acquiring access to these cars for extended dyno sessions is difficult. The other problem is their refusal of intake noise. I think that the 200 premium cars will sound excellent, while the others will sound basically the same as they always have.
- 8,725
The RGT is good stock. I remember agonising over which exhaust to race it with, since they were all very different. I think I preferred it stock! I used to race on Complex String so much 
By the way, use
By the way, use
McLaren
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Except the RGT runs a modified N/A, 3.6L Flat-6 from a 996 GT3, whilst the Stockholm video is a 930 gen. 911 Turbo.
GT does capture a little of the Porsche flat-6 sound as you said, so you know it at least sounds like a Porsche if you were to listen to the video without watching it. But, all the other notes that make those engines sound different is missing. That RGT is a much meaner sounding car in real life.
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- Marin County
The stockholm car was not a turbo. It was just a pre '89 911 Carrera. The configuration and architecture of the engine is roughly the same.
McLaren
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No, it's not. It's a 911 Turbo, 930 gen. And while the architecture may be similar, the sound is not. The RGT runs a bored out 3.6L w/ race exhaust & hi-flow cats. Doesn't sound like the GranTurismo car except for the sound of a flat-6.
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McLaren
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Unless it's got some engine work done, I haven't heard any 930 Carrera sound the Stockholm car unless it was a Turbo, too.
- 8,725
It's a road car. If it's bored, it'll sound very similar. If it's stroked, it'll sound mildly different (given the relative difference in stroke length). High-flow cats, eh? Same effect as a resonator in that position; stock cats are the same, just a bit quieter. The rest of the exhaust, obviously, will sound quite different - though Rufs of that era typically aren't that loud, not race-loud at any rate.It's the turbo that makes all the difference, combined with the turbo-spec exhaust manifold.
The CTR2 isn't bad, either.
GT4; Real
EDIT: just found this. Race machines are in an entirely different league when it comes to sound.
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