GT5's Game-Breaking Online Flaw (OP Updated: 11 Feb)

[BWX]

That tire wear indicator going crazy in a replay after a pit stop has been there since VERY early on, maybe since beginning of GT5. It goes away after a few laps, and happens in off-line races too. It has nothing to do with anything, just a replay bug I bet.

 

[NEPALII]

If anyone could test the bug, I would appreciate if you could share your experience here. 👍 Hoping it gets fixed.

 

[OwensRacing]

I also dont expect anything like that from them, but I have to admit that their ways are not what I would expect from a japanese company.

Japanese people are very closed, but are also very much in favour of publicly admiting their mistakes as a way of punishment. I can remember japanese authorities fromthe nuclear plants that broke down after the earthquake going public just to say sorry for their response to the disaster having not been up to public expectations. That was a very japanese way to do it.

I dont get why PD isnt more like that. It would really help their image to be more open to admit when they are wrong, because they are very sucessfull in general and people would support them when some small issues (compared to the big sucess of the game) arise.

What you are trying to say is the Japanese Cultural values a person with integrity.


This kind of thing is pretty much what I refer to as normal person. Admitting faults is first way to overcome them. Self awareness leads to the ability to resolve internal issues.

Anyway it's not just the Japanese that value this. Our shop is ran similar. You are far better admitting the fault then brushing it under the rug. Honesty and integrity. Great virtues to have in friend, family, and employees.

 

[BrandonW77]

This kind of thing is pretty much what I refer to as normal person. Admitting faults is first way to overcome them. Self awareness leads to the ability to resolve internal issues.

Completely agree, but unfortunately humans aren't programmed this way by default, it has to be learned. Our natural tendency is to stick to our decision no matter what the evidence says........just look at religion!

 

[CSLACR]

Easy fellas, let's not stray too far off base.

 

[nealcropper]

Lol, that's a whole new thread!

 

[chukabilly]

I have a question for anyone who chooses to answer. How often do you set your date and time in the XMB?

 

[CJSpencer77]

Got a room of 14 friends together tonight to test this bug, we hoped it woud be fixed but it still hapaned, first of all we had a 12 player race at the nordschlafe we all used different premium cars, all seemed fine, 2 more players joined and we went to Tokyo as we have had the bug there very regulary in 12 player + rooms, we were using recomended Calsonic GTR's and the bug hit, the race was very stutery, i was two and a half seconds off my quali times as were three other friends, one of my friends was 4 seconds off his quali pace. The settings we use are as folows:

visible damage on
damage low
penalties off
boost off
draft low
track edges to real
tyre and fuel deg. on
All aids off except ABS

The room had a fixed host with a 100mg down and 10mg up fibre connection
(the best connection in our league of any of our members)
hosting a fixed room with race quality set to std and voice quality set to low, quite a few players have mics ( around half )

The following may well now be old news, but myself and between 6 -12 other league mates play most week nights casually atm as our league is being suspended till this bug i fixed.
(both our divisions are 12 players and we dont want anyone losing race positions to this bug)
The following are some of the conditions/results we have found to be consistant

What we have found is guys with pads dont seem to be affected the same as wheel users.

As players leave a large player race when this bug is happening you can feel the speed coming back to you.

It doesnt always feel laggy when this bug happens, sometimes you can lose time and not notice a visible difference.

A grid of premium cars compared to standard cars definatly seems to be worse

Certain tracks seem to be affected worse, we have found races at Tokyo and GP/F both seem to suffer badly

Tomorow night we are going to try a room without mics, if this ends up making a 12 player race acceptable its how we will run our league races untill the bug is fixed, has anyone tried to see how much difference this makes? If anyone wants to come help fill the room out, or has any ideas they would like to test please add me and come to help us test. ( should be on at about 9:30pm - 10pm ) PSN - CJSpencer77

 

[CSLACR]

I have a question for anyone who chooses to answer. How often do you set your date and time in the XMB?

Not very often, I've been meaning to though.

 

[cicua]

I have a question for anyone who chooses to answer. How often do you set your date and time in the XMB?

Whenever GT5 bugs me to do it, twice a year or so.

 

[MONSTAR-1]

I have a question for anyone who chooses to answer. How often do you set your date and time in the XMB?

A few times. It just came back 2 days ago but the game and internal clock are exactly the same....

 

[chukabilly]

I have a hunch. I just updated my date and time in the XMB. It was off by four minutes. But neither the game nor Sony asked me to do it.

I have a cable/internet connection, so the time I'm using is the time on my cable box. That time is pretty accurate, within a few seconds, to all international clocks I've measured it against.

My theory is that the game is trying to compensate for all users' clocks simultaneously, and some are off more than others. I'm off FOUR minutes! This may be a factor in the bug.

To either eliminate it or identify whatever effect it may have, I propose a testing protocol.

1. Sign in to Sony.
2. Update date and time settings via internet.
3. Enter GT5.
4. When on Home page, clear system cache.
5. Enter lounge and race.

If you want to, try it and post your results. I'm working with my friends to set up testing sessions, and we'll share what we find. Maybe its nothing.

Racing On!

edit: EVERYONE in the room needs to do this at the same time!

 

[mikeonthebike]

Clock theory could be relevant.

The strange thing with my clock is that the last couple months it always says to check the time and date settings.

I've set my clock via internet AND manually and it still says to check the clock?

 

[cicua]

My theory is that the game is trying to compensate for all users' clocks simultaneously, and some are off more than others. I'm off FOUR minutes! This may be a factor in the bug.

I have had the same thought, looking forward to whatever you find 👍

You could combine with the opposite test; make everyone set their clocks months and years apart both in past and future, and see if things break with fewer people.

PM me if you need a room filler.

 

[chukabilly]

Clock theory could be relevant.

The strange thing with my clock is that the last couple months it always says to check the time and date settings.

I've set my clock via internet AND manually and it still says to check the clock?

I've had that happen a couple of times and always blamed a poor electrical connection or interruption in internet service. But I'm beginning to think that the network environment is a BIG factor.

When we set the date and time via internet, we "synchronize" with whatever network we are using. In this case, Sony. There are a lot of users who are using this same network, and most don't update their clocks unless prompted to do so.

I think it is easy to fall out of "sync" with the network, but both Sony and PD know this, so there is a buffer built in to absorb these differences.

But on-line racing pushes this buffer to its limit, and by updating our date and time on a regular basis, we can help that buffer do its job better. And that may lead us to better racing!

Maybe it's not relevant. Maybe it is.

And to cicua, you will be among the first to know when we test!

Unfortunately, I personally won't be available for another 24 hours at least. I'm curious to see what the members can find. The idea will either be confirmed or dismissed. I'm just trying to contribute!!

 

[jon-]

If PD have tied the game in any way to the accuracy of the system clock they're even stupider than we've been giving them credit for

 

[CSLACR]

I'm definitely going to try fixing my clock, I do know it's off, but honestly I have to say, I highly doubt that is the source of this bug in any way.
If it were, I think we'd have seen this a long time sooner. Not that it "can't", just that I'll be very surprised if it actually does.

 

[chukabilly]

I don't think it's the source of the bug, it's just a factor that can make it worse. Jake also thinks it's unrelated to GT5. But my thought is that if we are asking a game to link together consoles across the world, how could the clock NOT be a factor?

 

[NEPALII]

This is new to me. The clock could actually really be the source of the bug? I mean, it's just a clock Will give it a try anyways.

 

[Carbonox]

So, the bug hasn't been fixed in the latest update?

If so, when will PD understand what the players actually need right now?

 

[dudeondacouch]

If so, when will PD understand what the players actually need right now?

My bet is: never.

Serving the community is simply not a priority.

 

[nealcropper]

My bet is: never.

Serving the community is simply not a priority.

I don't think that's true, this bug was never Gonna be fixed in this update, maybe the next one. What was going into this patch was already planned, and id say it's a fair bet that when we found out about it was almost finished. It's the next patch that will truly test there capacity to listen to and help their community.

 

[dudeondacouch]

Ok, I'll be standing by.

 

[LVracerGT]

Blow up Kaz's twitter until he gets his head out of his ass and pushes out a emergency update for something that is ruining a major part of the game. I guarantee all the Forza fanboys are laughing their asses off. C'mon Kaz, wake the **** up and do something.

 

[Sphinx]

Let's not turn this into a bitch and moan thread.

 

[nealcropper]

let's not turn this into a bitch and moan thread.

+1

 

[chukabilly]

This is new to me. The clock could actually really be the source of the bug? I mean, it's just a clock Will give it a try anyways.

I think it may be a factor, and here's why:

In theory, since we all use the same hardware, (the PS3), we all get the exact same hardware clock. That hardware clock is maintained and accessed by the board level operating system. This is the clock that is read by the Operation System at boot time. In this case, the XMB is our first menu, and the first time the hardware clock is read. So that's once.

Thinking about Time affecting the physics engine made me curious as to my own date and time setting, so I looked at it. It read 11:53. I noticed my cable box said 11:49, and it tweaked me! So I updated via internet, and Presto! Now the PS3 had the same time as my cable box. They ALWAYS should, because we have a bundled package of cable/internet/phone service.

That's why I asked who updates their time and date settings regularly. My clock had gained four minutes since the last time I updated it, which would only have been at the prompting of Sony. Where did those four minutes come from? And how did they get there? So let's go back to the hardware clock.

After an investigation that includes Physics Forums and beaglesoft.com, I found this:
"Application software that uses time and date access the operating system clock. The advantages of this system are simplicity in its straightforward approach; the major disadvantages are the poor time-keeping ability on the board level and the vulnerability of the operating system clock to be thrown off by demanding software or hardware."

Further research led me into the relationship between our hardware clocks, namely the PS3, and our software clocks, namely GT5. I found this:

"The software clock is useful, but it has several limitations. First, the software clock is a poor timekeeper. Its accuracy is limited by the stability of the interrupt requests. {CHUX ADDITION: Interrupt requests are the "pings" from the hardware clock, or PS3. It should be every 54.936 milliseconds, or 18.206 times per second. CHUK done.} Any change in the interrupt request rate causes the clock to gain or lose time. If you leave your computer on for long periods, the software clock might be off by large amounts, perhaps a minute or more for every day that the computer is left on."

So I classify GT5 as a demanding software program, and I am now aware that timekeeping is more complicated than I thought. Which means I can return to your original statement/question and bring this long post to an end!

Yes, I do believe the bug is the direct result of timekeeping issues between players. The physics engine will work, and we can do it off-line, but it may be the only way it will consistently work on-line is to constantly synchronize clocks. At least every day.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've been painting all day, with tomorrow to go. Then I buy a G27!!

When I paint, I think about this and run laps in my head. It's almost a shame to take money for it, but there are always more bills to pay!
I guess Jake will get me again for a long post, but I tried to make it readable!

Time for a beer.

There, Jake, read that!

 

[griffinz]

The clock is not a factor.

 

[OwensRacing]

Excellent post chuckabilly.

 

[chukabilly]

@griffinz: If you don't think the clock is not a factor, how would you prove it? And what's another answer?

@Owens: Thank you. It means a lot coming from you!


edit: Now I will investigate the different techniques used to synchronize clocks across networks. Specifically, I will be looking for external factors to the hardware {such as temperature, manufacturer, electrical stability} and how they relate to the software {quality of internet stability, program demands, user responsibilities}. You know, the usual stuff!!!