GT5's Game-Breaking Online Flaw (OP Updated: 11 Feb)

[TheDabbinDave]

I think the "game breaking online flaw" is the massive handling difference between offline and online. I'm sorry but a setup that rides on rails offline on RS tires should not feel like it is on Sport Medium tires on the same track!

I don't race online that much because of this. And because I don't race online much, the handling difference is very noticeable..

 

[Ealirendur]

Chuk, and any other interested parties:

The playstation doesn't use NTP; it seems to just do a HTTPS connection to the PSN servers. It would be sort of vaguely possible to tunnel it over that, but highly unlikely. It's not really relevant either way, as it's not doing it during the race - but the PSN/mesh syncing I've seen could easily involve time sync somehow, and service.playstation.net is periodically contacted.

My interest was piqued a little by Cicua's story of PS3 time slew during a network loop a ways back, but that would have to be reproduced.

One thing I find a little odd is that from one perspective the PS3 is likely doing slightly more work to service a DS3 on Bluetooth (which also uses encryption, albeit very CPU-light).

Encryption of lots of tiny data (eg, mic audio) could easily upset the ability to fully utilise PS3 resources/pipelines, I suppose. Interrupt handling for code that isn't yours could (Sony/PSN libs), too.

I'll stop rambling now.

 

[chukabilly]

I didn't mind the rambling at all. Thanks for the information, Ren!! 👍

💡

I'm going to go see my friend Bill. He makes a nice living in Technology!

The fact that he enjoys beer will in no way interfere with my very determined investigation!!!


The painting job is done, and I have my cash. I've tried Jake's G27, and now I intend to get one. Mostly because it fits my price range, to be honest. I can justify $300 for a hobby to the missus, but above $500.....

Speaking of rambling!

 

[vipersan]

One question that might be connected with this bug.

I've been racing with friends in past two weeks and there is some problems with pole positions in free run. The fastest people were often not starting on pole, but rather randomly. Any ideas? Options are set to fastest first.

 

[PantalonUK]

One question that might be connected with this bug.

I've been racing with friends in past two weeks and there is some problems with pole positions in free run. The fastest people were often not starting on pole, but rather randomly. Any ideas? Options are set to fastest first.

Can happen. On official race days we set a one lap race that seems to do a reset and fix this. This also allows everyone to make sure they can see all cars on track too.

 

[vipersan]

So a solution would be to have one lap race before the official race? And then run the free run qualifying again or what?

But for that to work (if I read this right), everybody needs to be there? We run a kind of free qualifying half hour, during which everybody joins in. Would that solution work in that case too?

 

[twistedfirework]

During your free run qually. One driver needs to go to the watch mode and live timing. If the sector times are showing, then the room is ok and the grid will be correct.
If the sector times don't display, then reset the track.
It might be worth trying this method with more than 12 cars and seeing if the bug appears.

 

[nealcropper]

Is this another new bug? Caused by 2.03?

 

[jon-]

No

 

[vipersan]

During your free run qually. One driver needs to go to the watch mode and live timing. If the sector times are showing, then the room is ok and the grid will be correct.
If the sector times don't display, then reset the track.
It might be worth trying this method with more than 12 cars and seeing if the bug appears.

Will try that. Thank you very much!

 

[twistedfirework]

No. This has been about for a long time.

 

[nealcropper]

No. This has been about for a long time.

Oh right, just that I was in a lobby with CJSpencer (TAM Racing) the other night and this happened every race to him, he qualified first and never even
Started in a podium position, and I have never experienced this before.

 

[cicua]

Oh right, just that I was in a lobby with CJSpencer (TAM Racing) the other night and this happened every race to him, he qualified first and never even
Started in a podium position, and I have never experienced this before.

Consider yourself lucky! This has happened for a long time.

It is just another example of GT5's failing to sync information with each other correctly.

Not sure if it has any relation to the grip-loss bug, but to me it is just another sign of networking code that was not thought completely through.

The playstation doesn't use NTP; it seems to just do a HTTPS connection to the PSN servers. It would be sort of vaguely possible to tunnel it over that, but highly unlikely. It's not really relevant either way, as it's not doing it during the race - but the PSN/mesh syncing I've seen could easily involve time sync somehow, and service.playstation.net is periodically contacted.

Interesting, good find.

My interest was piqued a little by Cicua's story of PS3 time slew during a network loop a ways back, but that would have to be reproduced.

That is easy, just connect two ports on your switch with an ethernet cable, you get a loop quickly.

One thing I find a little odd is that from one perspective the PS3 is likely doing slightly more work to service a DS3 on Bluetooth (which also uses encryption, albeit very CPU-light).

Me too. I guess BT devices have limited bandwidth. USB devices can potentially generate many more interrupts/second.

Encryption of lots of tiny data (eg, mic audio) could easily upset the ability to fully utilise PS3 resources/pipelines, I suppose. Interrupt handling for code that isn't yours could (Sony/PSN libs), too.

Yes, I believe that was the case with my network loop, too many interrupts that the PS3 OS had to handle. AFAIR the Cell processor has 6 cells dedicated for the game, 1 for the system, but only 1 general-purpose processor (where the interrupts happen), which is shared between OS and game.

Ramble on!

 

[BrandonW77]

So a solution would be to have one lap race before the official race? And then run the free run qualifying again or what?

But for that to work (if I read this right), everybody needs to be there? We run a kind of free qualifying half hour, during which everybody joins in. Would that solution work in that case too?

There's a much simpler solution to this issue. When you're ready to start the race just have everyone go back to the lounge and then re-enter the pits. This will line everyone up by their starting times and you can confirm this through the timing monitor. If you check it during free run the times will be out of order because people are randomly entering/leaving the track, and your starting order will be screwy. If you have everyone leave the track it clears their location ranking on track and will then line them up by their fastest times. If you check the timing monitor after everyone has re-entered the pits you'll see that they are listed in order by their times.

This also helps reduce the long, black loading screens while waiting for the race to begin. 👍

Consider yourself lucky! This has happened for a long time.

It is just another example of GT5's failing to sync information with each other correctly.

Not sure if it has any relation to the grip-loss bug, but to me it is just another sign of networking code that was not thought completely through.

See my above comments. It's not a problem with GT5's syncing or netcode, it's caused by people confusing the game by constantly entering/leaving/entering/leaving the track. People in the lounge, even if they have set a time, are considered to be "not on the track/spectators" and thus have no relative position ranking at that time because GT5 then presumes they will not be racing. As soon as they go back on track and complete a timed lap the game will consider them to be "an on-track participant" and will then rank them by the fastest time they have set.


I've run close to 60 league races using this method and it always works, and I have confirmed that it still works after the recent updates.

 

[cicua]

If you have everyone leave the track it clears their location ranking on track and will then line them up by their fastest times. If you check the timing monitor after everyone has re-entered the pits you'll see that they are listed in order by their times.

This also helps reduce the long, black loading screens while waiting for the race to begin. 👍

Interesting, will try this 👍

You are probably right it is a local code mess rather than netcode, I stand corrected!

 

[QB1o]

i'm amazed that googling 'gt5 lap time bug' turns up nothing other than GTplanet results.

This game is more broken than skyrim was, and PD is having a good laugh at everyone who bought it on the strength of their reputation.

 

[PantalonUK]

So a solution would be to have one lap race before the official race? And then run the free run qualifying again or what?

But for that to work (if I read this right), everybody needs to be there? We run a kind of free qualifying half hour, during which everybody joins in. Would that solution work in that case too?

Yeah it would work but yes you need everyone there who should be there. Thats how we have worked it in the past and it works.

Everyone in
1 lap race
Change race settings
Start qualy
End qualy
Start Race

But after reading comments after mine I will definitley be testing the other suggestions.

 

[vipersan]

There's a much simpler solution to this issue. When you're ready to start the race just have everyone go back to the lounge and then re-enter the pits. This will line everyone up by their starting times and you can confirm this through the timing monitor. If you check it during free run the times will be out of order because people are randomly entering/leaving the track, and your starting order will be screwy. If you have everyone leave the track it clears their location ranking on track and will then line them up by their fastest times. If you check the timing monitor after everyone has re-entered the pits you'll see that they are listed in order by their times.


See my above comments. It's not a problem with GT5's syncing or netcode, it's caused by people confusing the game by constantly entering/leaving/entering/leaving the track. People in the lounge, even if they have set a time, are considered to be "not on the track/spectators" and thus have no relative position ranking at that time because GT5 then presumes they will not be racing. As soon as they go back on track and complete a timed lap the game will consider them to be "an on-track participant" and will then rank them by the fastest time they have set.


I've run close to 60 league races using this method and it always works, and I have confirmed that it still works after the recent updates.

Will try that too. But we had a race last night, where I set the pole position and was on the track whole time through qualifying. I pitted twice in between but still had done 10 or so uninterrupted qualifying laps just before the race start. I still started on 2nd position and the room owner started on pole with more than 1 second slower best lap time. Who knows ...

 

[twistedfirework]

It really is simple. If the sector times are showing. The race will start in the correct order. 1 driver watch live timing at the start. As soon as a car has completed the 1st sector on the first timed lap, you will know if it is ok.

 

[MGR]

Congratulations

Congratulations on the baby

Hey MGR, congrats to both of you on your newborn!

Congrats and thanks 👍

Congrats MGR!

Thanks for the well wishes everybody.

I've added a little more detail to the OP as I now have replay evidence of the bug affecting a room of only 11 standard model cars. Also added Speedy6543's excellent video compilation.

I suspect an easy (but crude) fix would be to have an option to disable the recording of replays during a race. I can't see that happening though as it would be admitting fault with the game without fixing it. I expect a very low key announcement (if any) in the patch notes when (or more accurately IF) it ever gets fixed.

Cheers

 

[BrandonW77]

Yeah it would work but yes you need everyone there who should be there. Thats how we have worked it in the past and it works.

Everyone in
1 lap race
Change race settings
Start qualy
End qualy
Start Race

But after reading comments after mine I will definitley be testing the other suggestions.

You don't need to do a one lap race, all you need to do is change the track to a different track and then change back to the desired track. That clears out all times that have been set up to that point and then you can start qualifying with a clean slate.

Will try that too. But we had a race last night, where I set the pole position and was on the track whole time through qualifying. I pitted twice in between but still had done 10 or so uninterrupted qualifying laps just before the race start. I still started on 2nd position and the room owner started on pole with more than 1 second slower best lap time. Who knows ...

Without more info I'm not sure what happened. But any situation that sees some people on track and some in the lounge has the potential to make things screwy.

 

[avens]

Thanks for the well wishes everybody.

I've added a little more detail to the OP as I now have replay evidence of the bug affecting a room of only 11 standard model cars. Also added Speedy6543's excellent video compilation.

I suspect an easy (but crude) fix would be to have an option to disable the recording of replays during a race. I can't see that happening though as it would be admitting fault with the game without fixing it. I expect a very low key announcement (if any) in the patch notes when (or more accurately IF) it ever gets fixed.

Cheers

another easy but cruce fix would be to limit "race for real" races to 12 competitors.

 

[Sphinx]

i'm amazed that googling 'gt5 lap time bug' turns up nothing other than GTplanet results.

This game is more broken than skyrim was, and PD is having a good laugh at everyone who bought it on the strength of their reputation.

Try GT5 online Bug

 

[PantalonUK]

You don't need to do a one lap race, all you need to do is change the track to a different track and then change back to the desired track. That clears out all times that have been set up to that point and then you can start qualifying with a clean slate.



Without more info I'm not sure what happened. But any situation that sees some people on track and some in the lounge has the potential to make things screwy.

Thanks for your info above Brandon. As I say I will be trying the other methods.

we have used the 1 lap as a "can everyone see 10 cars on track" verifier as we have had issues in the past with certain participants not seeing each other on track.

 

[symaski62]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmpWGUGGkeo&feature=player_embedded

00:00 to 00:17 sec, km/h MAX BUG = time
unaffected Dual Shock 3 user (low Traffic) = 300km/h max
minor affected Wheel user (low traffic) = 295km/h max
Heavy affected wheel user (Heavy traffic) = 258 km/h max
Unaffected Dual Shock 3 (Heavy Traffic) = 266km/h max

💡 video ^^ km/h bug

 

[BrandonW77]

Try GT5 online Bug

All of those links point back to GTPlanet in one way or another. Looks like Jordan's article on this issue is gaining some attention which is what's needed if we have any hope of it being fixed, or at least addressed. 👍 Jordan

 

[QB1o]

Try GT5 online Bug

Thanks!

the whole first page is, in fact, links to people referencing MGR's thread and flip oviks video.
If this bug does get resolved (which it absolutely has to) then it's thanks to the contributors to this thread.

 

[CJSpencer77]

Thanks!

the whole first page is, in fact, links to people referencing MGR's thread and flip oviks video.
If this bug does get resolved (which it absolutely has to) then it's thanks to the contributors to this thread.

Well said, its great that there are enough players who want to get something more out of GT5 and knowing that when huge holes apear in the game they will be there to do whatever they can, even if its just diagnosis of a problem like this one its reasuring, but id love to know that PD even care that its broken, for all we know, the players in this thread may be the only people on the case.

 

[CJSpencer77]

As a side note, aparantly PD are hiring, they should think about hiring a Public relations officer dag nam it !!

 

[nealcropper]

As a side note, aparantly PD are hiring, they should think about hiring a Public relations officer dag nam it !!

I hear ya!! Lol