GT6 Sales Discussion

sinbad
What else is there on ps3 which even remotely attempts the Gran Turismo style of game?
To my mind there are certainly no more Gt rivals today than there were in the ps2 days, no matter how roughly you define "rival". With no Enthusia equivalent there are arguably fewer.
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I was talking in general. There is for example the forza series for xbox, and there are simulators for PC.
 
leeson
Many people gave up on GT after GT5. Many other people were waiting to see if GT6 would be a big step forward and make us forget GT5 ever existed. Unfortunately, this latest installment not only carries over most of the major issues of GT5 it also introduces plenty of new complaints.

To me the game feels like GT5 with a better menu system, slightly better career mode, and better physics but with somehow worse graphics and worse sounds. There are also some features missing like Shuffle races. Everything else is nearly exactly the same. All the old little annoyances and gripes are still there.
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Dont forget to add in the new "Freemium" business structure where you will either need to grind for dozens of hours or pay upwards of $50-130 for each high end car in the game buying in game credits
 
High On Speed
Dont forget to add in the new "Freemium" business structure where you will either need to grind for dozens of hours or pay upwards of $50-130 for each high end car in the game buying in game credits
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Haven't you noticed the seasonals and increased payouts that negate the need for people to buy the credits? Okay, if someone wants all of the expensive cars straight away, you'll still need to buy credits with real money, but the game isn't designed that way - it's just an option...

leeson said
Many people gave up on GT after GT5. Many other people were waiting to see if GT6 would be a big step forward and make us forget GT5 ever existed. Unfortunately, this latest installment not only carries over most of the major issues of GT5 it also introduces plenty of new complaints.

To me the game feels like GT5 with a better menu system, slightly better career mode, and better physics but with somehow worse graphics and worse sounds. There are also some features missing like Shuffle races. Everything else is nearly exactly the same. All the old little annoyances and gripes are still there.
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I'm not sure why people thought GT6 on the same console would be vastly improved.
 
Metfanant
the problem is PD (and just about every Japanese developer for that matter) has completely lost touch with what the consumers want, and while they have faltered, their competition has continually gotten better and better...

people want customization, people want cars that sound like cars...they dont want to listen to elevator music in a driving game...most people find the inclusion of standard cars to be comical (it is)...people want real damage...they dont care if the damage is 100% accurately modeled in regards to real world physics...they want to see dents, and wings fly off, and shattered glass and the audio that goes with it

what makes GT popular for some, (particularly on these forums) like the "its a driving game, not a racing game" crowd or the "its about collecting cars" crowd...just doesn't fly with the general consumer and GT's sales will continue to fall, along with its review scores until Kaz realizes this...

to be honest Kaz is probably lucky that PD is a first party studio that has had mega success in the past, because a third party publisher would have booted him ages ago...

GT6 is a huge step in the right direction (in regards to the user experience compared to GT5) but the excitement isnt there...im enjoying the heck out of GT6...as someone that has owned every GT game back to the original i appreciate it for what it is...

but part of me wonders if im enjoying it simply because i chose to get a PS4 and NOT to get a Xbone at launch and have to miss out on Forza 5 (Forza 3 and 4 were much better "games" than GT5), and since im not a PC gamer GT6 is really my only sim option...

the average gamer did not grow up in the PS1 era...they grew up in the Xbox era with Project Gotham and Forza...to them GT is boring, they dont understand what the point of the standard cars is, they dont understand why there is no damage, they dont understand why the cars sound weird...

PD MUST...
- embrace customization for REAL...livery editor of ANY kind...more body/aero kits

- damage...doesnt matter if its real time and physics based...people want their cars to fall apart when they crash, even if its just for the "wow" factor

- sound...even if the sounds are not 100% audiophile accurate...V8's need to sound like V8's...race cars need to sound like race cars...

- standard cars must go...i dont care if it cuts the car count in half (or even worse)...you dont need the 99 and 02 Viper GTS (one as a standard, one as a premium) they are the SAME car in different color choices (except the 02 has ABS in real life)...we dont need a whole page of standard mid 2000 Honda S2000's...the single 2006 Premium version is enough...

- give us something more on the single player front...the old formula of just a list of races just isnt going to cut it anymore...we dont need a stupid contrived story to go with the single player, but there should be something...earn sponsorships as you go along (great way to tie in a basic livery editor)...grow rivalries with other drivers...form a race team (great way to incorporate B-Spec)...make me feel like im racing in a "season." have a calendar where i pick and choose races to enter throughout the season

- DELIVER your features...dont talk about stuff that wont be in the game...dont talk to me about a course editor that is 100x100km and then a month later its 50x50...then a month later its 10x10...then a month later it "wont be there day 1, but its coming!" Dont tell me you're "working on sound" but its not ready...no, stop doing things that are cool, but dont bring anything to the table (moon missions?) and get your work done!


there is so much more i could list, but this is the stuff that comes to mind right now...
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I agree with you sooo much. The world has passed GT by and its sad to see. I have been playing since GT1 and the series was the #1 if not only reason I choose to buy a PS2 and a PS3. That said the rest of the car racing world has passed it by the last few years. There are WAY BETTER simulators on PC now and Turn10 has taken the Forza franchise and given people what they want. Meanwhile PD has continued to ignore what its fan base wants.

How long have GT fans been wanting drag racing? Since GT3 they have hinted at it, but its still not here. I dont mean a drive down the strip at Indy but a real drag strip. One with lights and timers where 8-10 people can drive in elimination rounds 2 at a time. Or as you pointed out a real track editor that we were promised a year ago. What about the feature to be able to map out a track in our town using a GPS app from a smart phone and down load it to the game (Or is that Drive Club). Why did they take away trading of cars (other than X -cars that I understand), trading paint chips and cards? Why is it so hard to make credits to buy all the cars. The IDEA let alone the application of credits for real $ is insane and pisses off what fan base they have left. They should throw out ALL of the duplicate street cars, stick to a list of 200-250 cars that are fully customizable premium (current tuning system is ok just need better livery system as you said) and make it so you earn all of them in the campaign for online racing.

In previous generations of GT I never felt ripped off or like PD was just trying to clear out my wallet. I never felt like my time and loyalty were being $h!t on until now. They released 1/3 of the game that was promised and charged a full $60, immediately patch any credit earning exploits in the game then say you can "BUY" 7million credits for $50 more which if I want the most expensive cars just to have them I would have to pay over $600, give us NO track editor, worse graphics & sound than GT5, little to nothing the community has been asking them to add, take away some of our favorite features and have the gull to wonder why sales are slumping? Either PD is: 1) Completely out of touch with its community. 2) Kaz has gotten an ego and forgot his vision. 3) They are on the verge of bankruptcy and are trying to con people out of there hard earned cash. 4) BOMBED GT6 on purpose to boost sales of Drive Club or 5) A combination of all the above.
 
High On Speed
I agree with you sooo much. The world has passed GT by and its sad to see. I have been playing since GT1 and the series was the #1 if not only reason I choose to buy a PS2 and a PS3. That said the rest of the car racing world has passed it by the last few years. There are WAY BETTER simulators on PC now
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There have always been way better sims (of all kinds) on the PC than on consoles. From R&D to market by the time a console hits the shelves its tech is 12-18 months old, in the PC world the power doubles every 18 months. Add to that the fact that the console tech is pretty static for the 4-6 year (Sony and MS want 10 years!) life cycle and you can see how there is no way consoles can keep up with PCs.
 
MustangManiac
There have always been way better sims (of all kinds) on the PC than on consoles. From R&D to market by the time a console hits the shelves its tech is 12-18 months old, in the PC world the power doubles every 18 months. Add to that the fact that the console tech is pretty static for the 4-6 year (Sony and MS want 10 years!) life cycle and you can see how there is no way consoles can keep up with PCs.
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That is my point. If I wanted a sim I would go on my PC and I do. I have a massive custom Cosmos II case with 3-way SLI GTX680 4gb cards, 32GB of 2133 RAM, and 3770k OC to 4.8, 4x256GB 840Pro Samsung SSD in RAID 0 and built a full cockpit race rig out of PVC with 3x27" gaming monitors for Nvidia Surround and a Thrustmaster T500rs. I have an Asus Xonar Essence One DAC to power my Sennheiser HD700 headphones or can use an onboard PCIE Soundblaster Z card with Sennheiser PC350SE if I want chat. In addition I have the fiber out running to a 5.1 Yamaha Receiver paired with DefTech ProCinema 800 speaker set. My desk at home is a corner 8'x6' with 10 screens including my 8" tablet I use for Battlefield 4 that has the afore mentioned and another computer with 2way SLI GTX660ti and a 17" laptop. Full load it draws about 24amps all turned on and runs on 2 circuits in my home. My next build will be in a Caselabs Magnum TH10 full water cooled and even more extreme.......

Why do I post all of this? Not to brag, but BECAUSE GT IS NOT ABOUT BEING A SIMULATOR.. There I said it... It never has been despite the tag line "The Real Driving Simulator". Notice they say driving and not racing. What it is about is having fun with friends and enjoying cars and the emotions they give you. I dont expect the best graphics, I dont expect the most realistic physics (although they are appreciated). What I want is to have fun, hear cool noises, have cars that I will never be able to purchase in real life, go from a 900pp Lamans race to a 200pp Cappuccino race with friends and have a blast doing it. This is where GT6 is really failing for me. It has become a grind fest loaded with the "Freemium" business model of a bad android application all while being riddled with short cuts in coding (like custom rims changing tire width and throwing off handling as one of many examples), no custom track editor, bad carrier mode, poor quality vehicle livery system, the list goes on and on.
 
Scaff
In games and other entertainment forms yes it is.

I'm more than able to tell he difference between reality and fantasy.
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Most people believe that since a game or TV program is fiction that it doesn't effect the human psyche. I say it does.
 
Scaff
It which case you should have just as big an issue with GT, as they will (using your logic) teach that crashing has no ill effect on either car or driver.
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Edit...are you talking about crash damage?

Sorry, I misunderstood.

Anyway, I guess you know where I stand concerning violence.
 
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JuiceMcGoose
I do have a problem with it, and I said so in their forums. JuiceMcGoose1 on Xbox.
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Sorry, but your reply makes no sense at all?

What does your XBL ID have to do with GT and the (very unproven) link between video games and violence?
 
xSNAKEx
Good. Hopefully they will make racing games more hardcore and sim like instead of just appealing to the masses. We all know this dumbs down the game and it looses its essence.
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Whilst I totally agree with making it less dumbed down and ready for idiots, they shouldn't make it stray too far from its roots. Should just go back to the old formula; a bronze in a licence is enough to get you going into the game, and is easy enough for anyone. None of this 'reward golds at every oppurtunity to spoon-feed newbies and make them think they're awesome' stuff. *sigh* I want the GT2 and 3 days back. They were accessible, yet difficult if you wanted them to be.

Part of the problem is the progression; having ordained PP limits and locking off later parts of the career until you gain enough stars makes people stick to a linear path, and not give them a chance to play the way they want to. In GT3, anyone with reasonable skills could either win a Miata from a gold B licence and start in the beginner league, or do the easy, entry-level Miata enduro, win an F1 car and then just blitz the game as fast as possible. Now, with all these limits and not letting newbies or people who just wanna rush through do what they want, they have to stoop the AI's skills as low as possible to ensure constant wins for the player so that they feel satisfied and that they're making solid progress.

TL;DR version - They should make it more open ended and variable again, but don't turn it into a niche product like sim racers on PC.
 
TokoTurismo
How come everyone is so excited to see PD fail?
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PS: guess kids don't like racing games those days > FM5 is even worse with only 1/2 of GT6 numbers.[/quote]

Maybe todays kids have higher demands on their racing games then what we had 10 years ago?
Beside that I really hope the relative poor sales is due to the macro transaction push of them. Pay again for content you already bought or grind in all eternity to get access to it. Couple that with some of poorest racing AI and race setup in racing history it deserves the bad reception it got. It really shouldn´t get more then a 5/10 overall score because PD refuse to work on their weaknesses and get better. The Macro transaction push is the only modern part of it though from what I hear FM 5 is even worse and thus more ahead here also lol.

AS of FM 5 sales numbers it´s launched on Xbox One and not to many own that console yet. So cant read to much into that. Also the shift of focus to PS 4 don´t help GT 6 either. To see the sorry state of this game I think it was right not to have it as a launch title on PS 4. It´s dinosaur structure would be even more apparent.
 
Am I the only one who thoroughly enjoys the engine sounds? They give me a nostalgic feeling from playing Sega GT 2002 as a child, and I still play it to this day. Guess I'm alone on this one! :indiff:
 
INEEDNAWZZZ
Whilst I totally agree with making it less dumbed down and ready for idiots, they shouldn't make it stray too far from its roots. Should just go back to the old formula; a bronze in a licence is enough to get you going into the game, and is easy enough for anyone. None of this 'reward golds at every oppurtunity to spoon-feed newbies and make them think they're awesome' stuff. *sigh* I want the GT2 and 3 days back. They were accessible, yet difficult if you wanted them to be.

Part of the problem is the progression; having ordained PP limits and locking off later parts of the career until you gain enough stars makes people stick to a linear path, and not give them a chance to play the way they want to. In GT3, anyone with reasonable skills could either win a Miata from a gold B licence and start in the beginner league, or do the easy, entry-level Miata enduro, win an F1 car and then just blitz the game as fast as possible. Now, with all these limits and not letting newbies or people who just wanna rush through do what they want, they have to stoop the AI's skills as low as possible to ensure constant wins for the player so that they feel satisfied and that they're making solid progress.

TL;DR version - They should make it more open ended and variable again, but don't turn it into a niche product like sim racers on PC.
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That is exactly the point. Do you think developers would develop a harder game if it is targeted to a more hardcore niche market or the mass community which includes pre schoolers and beer drinking 50yo men?

xKuranx
Am I the only one who thoroughly enjoys the engine sounds? They give me a nostalgic feeling from playing Sega GT 2002 as a child, and I still play it to this day. Guess I'm alone on this one! :indiff:
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Probably. They absolutely suck. When you hear a game with good sound effects or listen to real life racing it makes you almost throw up when you listen to gran turismo in comparison. They are even close, they are light years away. 1/10 for sound and I'm not trying to be dramatic.

If I close my eyes I can imagine myself more in a vacuum cleaner demonstration store than an event where cars are racing.
 
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GregOr1971
PS: guess kids don't like racing games those days > FM5 is even worse with only 1/2 of GT6 numbers.
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Half is really good, considering that GT6 is for a console with an established base of over 80 million as of roughly two months ago, versus FM5 for a console that sold 2 million or so as of a few weeks ago. Gran Turismo has always benefited from an enormous established following, too, and Forza Motorsport hasn't been able to capture quite that large of a fan base; at least not yet. So, given two games on two platforms with relatively matching user bases, you would logically expect GT to sell maybe twice as well. Given one platform having almost forty times the installed base of the other..., well that changes everything. Granted, One just launched so there aren't a lot of games available yet, so that does help FM5 there, but that doesn't change the fact that there still aren't very many units out there to begin with.
 
xSNAKEx
That is exactly the point. Do you think developers would develop a harder game if it is targeted to a more hardcore niche market or the mass community which includes pre schoolers and beer drinking 50yo men?
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Like I said, they could take elements of hardcore sims and make it more difficult, but they shouldn't make it ridiculously hard for newbies or too easy for those who've played since the beginning. There's a reason Simbin's Race Pro on the 360 only managed a frankly embarassing 160,000 units worldwide. Incorporating black flags, qualifying, pit stops, intelligent and aggresive A.I. and all the other racing paraphernalia is great for the sim fanatics. However, for the average player, the sparse car list, lack of any real performance upgrades besides fine tuning (which if you don't understand, you're practically screwed), subpar visuals and a whole bunch of racing rules and regulations forced on the player (which the majority don't even understand) means it just isn't a fun or enjoyable experience.

That's the key aspect to GT's appeal; you don't need to know anything about cars and could still get into it. That's why pre schoolers and beer drinking 50 y/o men buy it and enjoy it. If you divert the racing portion to have the stringent rules and actual factors of racing (i.e. having a more realistic 20 laps per race rather than the average 3), you're gonna take the accessibility away and lose sales. The point I was making was that the past GT games had an already successful way of being able to be played - make it simple enough so you can make progress, yet have perks for those who have the skills and experience. Why GT6 decides to hand everything on a plate is what's baffling.
 
INEEDNAWZZZ
Like I said, they could take elements of hardcore sims and make it more difficult, but they shouldn't make it ridiculously hard for newbies or too easy for those who've played since the beginning. There's a reason Simbin's Race Pro on the 360 only managed a frankly embarassing 160,000 units worldwide. Incorporating black flags, qualifying, pit stops, intelligent and aggresive A.I. and all the other racing paraphernalia is great for the sim fanatics. However, for the average player, the sparse car list, lack of any real performance upgrades besides fine tuning (which if you don't understand, you're practically screwed), subpar visuals and a whole bunch of racing rules and regulations forced on the player (which the majority don't even understand) means it just isn't a fun or enjoyable experience.

That's the key aspect to GT's appeal; you don't need to know anything about cars and could still get into it. That's why pre schoolers and beer drinking 50 y/o men buy it and enjoy it. If you divert the racing portion to have the stringent rules and actual factors of racing (i.e. having a more realistic 20 laps per race rather than the average 3), you're gonna take the accessibility away and lose sales. The point I was making was that the past GT games had an already successful way of being able to be played - make it simple enough so you can make progress, yet have perks for those who have the skills and experience. Why GT6 decides to hand everything on a plate is what's baffling.
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I always find it baffling why people dig in and argue that any game, especially one as large and well financed as GT has to follow a linear path of any kind. GT has the resources to be everything to just about everybody through the use of difficulty sliders and multiple reward levels and multiple career paths from complete progression to sandbox and everything in between. TT data shows us that the skill level of players can vary 10 seconds a lap on standard length tracks and 20-30+ seconds on the full Nurb. You can't design one game, one way and make even a majority of people happy. At best maybe 1/3, no matter which end of the scale you cater too.

Difficulty sliders and options toggled on and off make everything work for just about everyone. Want flags? Tick this box. Use this slider to choose your difficulty level. Want all the cars now and just want to drive? Tick this box.

It's quite simple, but PD seems to be stuck in the big-brother-knows-best-one-size-fits-all mode of game design and that just won't cut it in 2013 now 2014.
 

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