GT6 Sales Discussion

I've always given him the benefit of the doubt on that one, thinking he was talking about the engine sounds in the E3 trailer, which were definitely just in there as sound effects.
He's definitely talking about the game. The sounds in the game are the same old samples they've always been. Kaz said they have a completely new method of generating sounds. That could just mean "new to the series", but ever since GT5 Prologue, it seemed like they had a radical enough mindset to do something completely new not just for the genre, but for the industry. The Red Bull cars are a sort-of "sneak peek" of what might be possible.

He said they were placeholders, but they didn't know if the new sounds would make it for launch - that's the context of the supposed "porky". Then in a later interview he said they'd have to think about adding them in an update. If they come, I expect they'll come with a host of other big changes at the same time.
 
I'm talking about the 'those are just sound effects' line, I can't actually find the interview when he mentions placeholders but I'm sure I read it once.
Actually I can't really be bothered debating this as it won't get us better sounds, I just found it a weird line for him to say when all game sound effects are just sound effects. :)
 
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I'm talking about the 'those are just sound effects' line, I can't actually find the interview when he mentions placeholders but I'm sure I read it once.
Actually I can't really be bothered debating this as it won't get us better sounds, I just found it a weird line for him to say when all game sound effects are just sound effects. :)
Well, he is Japanese! The line was a direct response to "Are the engine sounds that we hear in the demo representative of what we will hear in the final game?" - this was at E3 2013, where there was a live demo of the game. It's this interview, that I linked to a couple of posts ago, in case you missed it.

There is a difference between sound effects and sound simulation, though. ;)
 
Again I'm not talking about AI or sound, I'm talking about the gameplay experience as a whole, what you 'do', not how you do it or experience it. With GT1 they gave us a totally new game experience, buying a cheap car, completing licenses, picking races from a list to complete at any time etc etc. What they've failed to do from my point of view is expand on that core idea. Sure they added some extra 'special' events and fiddled with the license test format in some games, they changed how you progress (licenses/XP/stars) but at the core it was still the same. The races were even the same, with the same tracks and the same cars featured in them.

Gran Turismo 1, Sunday Cup, Autumn Ring Mini
Gran Turismo 6, Sunday Cup, Autumn Ring Mini
Well, how else are they going to go though?

Gran Turismo 7, Sunday Cup, Daytona oval

Would that make sense to anyone?

How about the PC sims like the GTRs/Raceroom? They begin based on racing leagues, and there are traditional first series.

Now I want those classic tracks from all the previous GT games to liven things up, and I don't care if they're Standard level, I want them. I'm used to a Tahiti Road experience, and little baby tracks like that are what I'd expect for first races. Maybe Tsukuba in there, but whatever, I think they established a good pattern to follow in those older games.

For a sandbox experience like GT Mode is, what kind of progression do you expect? You begin with a few definitive races done in sequence, and then you begin to get branching opportunities. Or very few, as we got in GT5 and 6. GT4 fell pretty much wide open after a certain point, and you did whatever you could afford a car for, from series to Manufacturer Cups.

So what about my GT Pro concept based on GT Academy and its ladders, where you're locked into series and you have zero options? Edit: except to continue in a series, re-racing for championship points as much as you want?

This is where Mean Elf's damned no matter what remark holds true. You can't really do much fresh stuff when the whole point of your game is only to get a car around a track ahead of the other cars. And seriously, spare me "car futbol" or cops n robbers, not a drift or touge fan either. Just give me races to beat.
 
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...And seriously, spare me "car futbol" or cops n robbers, not a drift or touge fan either. Just give me races to beat.
I actually quite enjoyed Codemaster's Infection Mode in Dirt 3 ;) but true, comparatively, I played that for a fraction of a percent compared to the career itself and online races.
 
Japanese cars
Kaz: "…it’s true that there is a lot of variations depending on the model, and that’s probably because we’ve been affected strongly by the automotive culture in Japan from the 1990′s. [...] Back then there was meaning to each of the fine differences, and the selection of which model variation to drive was important to a user. Looking at it now I also think that there’s too many.”
The one in particular sure showed their long term commitment to change.
 
No, I still disagree.

Disagrees that a user's experience should influence their view on a particular game (if it's in a negative light), then argues using his own experiences as to why the game is good.

Brilliant.

Engine sounds
Kaz: "…obviously that’s not good enough for GT6 and for the future. We’ve been working on a new system for generating sounds for a few years now, we just haven’t made that breakthrough yet, and we’re still working. That’s what we’re aiming for – to make that breakthrough – so that we have something of a high quality to show."

And yet GT6 shipped with largely unchanged engine sounds. So, not a single breakthrough in the entire PS3's lifespan...

Japanese cars
Kaz: "…it’s true that there is a lot of variations depending on the model, and that’s probably because we’ve been affected strongly by the automotive culture in Japan from the 1990′s. [...] Back then there was meaning to each of the fine differences, and the selection of which model variation to drive was important to a user. Looking at it now I also think that there’s too many.”


@Tornado already nailed that one.

Frame-rate
Kaz: "Our engineers complain every day: 'Isn't it enough that it's in 1080p? Does it have to be 60fps too?' But I think 60fps is very important, so we're working towards perfecting that. There might be times when you have a certain combination of conditions that come together - especially with the weather effects - [when] the game might briefly drop from 60fps, and for that I beg your forgiveness!


A quote from the GT5 times; they then bumped the resolution further and sacrificed the framerate even more for GT6. Progress?

Limitations
Kazunori also confirmed the PlayStation 3′s lack of memory was “a serious concern” during the development of GT5, saying that “we just have to do our best” to get what performance they can out of the hardware.


Valid. They knew those specs, intimately, for as long as every other first-party dev, though.

Goals
Kaz: “The objectives of Gran Turismo are very simple actually. We want people to enjoy the beauty of cars, we want people to enjoy driving, and we want people to enjoy the beauty of the environments. Those are things that have remained the same throughout the series, and it’s the same for GT6.”

You'd think the first and third underlined goals of yours would preclude PS2-era assets from being included, then...
 
I can only speak from my personal experience as to why I haven't bought GT6, and it's quite simple.

Firstly, I'm fed up of Kaz spending huge amounts of time working on stuff that didn't need to be fixed, and not fixing basic problems. You can't spend many millions on developing yet another 'all-new' physics engine and graphics/lighting, when they didn't need fixing in the first place, then yet again ignore the awful sound design which leaves 600hp brutal race cars sounding like lawnmowers. Hell, in the greatest movie car chase of all time, Bullitt's Ford Mustang actually had the sound of a GT40. It wasn't realistic but it sounded amazing, so why not the same principle here? I don't care if it isn't the exact right sound, just make me FEEL like I'm in a thumping, powerful supercar/race car.

Or yet again ignore the AI, which if anything sounds (from what friends have told me) even worse this time around - data proves that the AI actually SLOW DOWN to let you catch up with them. How the hell is that realistic? How can you spend so much time focusing on realism and immersion when the AI are so rubbish that any immersion is killed stone dead as soon as you try and race against them?

I'm fairly sure that's why endurance races were killed off; how it took Polyphony until 2010 to realise what Test Drive Le Mans did back on the PS1 in 1999, that you can save in the pits in a long distance race, I have no idea. But I feel like a combination of that putting people off doing the races (except overkilling them in a Red Bull X2010) plus the poor AI rendering a race redundant after half an hour, leaving you to circulate lapping cars for 23.5 hours, put many people off, and they just ditched it rather than fixing it. Even in it's previously broken form I loved endurance races, but now...24 MINUTE races? Yeah, real endurance test they are - races shorter than a BTCC sprint race, and from the sounds of it even more broken AI. (slow clap)

And don't even get me started on, as other people have said, Kaz's vague promises...sorry when was B-Spec supposed to be a thing?

It's unforgivable at this stage, and there's no excuse. I would rather have a new GT game with similar graphics/physics to the last one, but with an updated roster (as in with cars I want, like Forzas, rather than 1000 variants of the same Nissan), better sound design, and competitive AI which didn't turn every race into a borefest just because I turned up with a car in the same class.

TL;DR: I have been a Gran Turismo fan since 2 back on the PS1, but as much as I adored the games and the series means a lot to me, I won't be spending more money on more of the same. That's my personal feeling to why I didn't buy GT6, and I don't know if that accounts for a lot of other people/the poor sales figures.
 
Disagrees that a user's experience should influence their view on a particular game (if it's in a negative light), then argues using his own experiences as to why the game is good.

Brilliant.



And yet GT6 shipped with largely unchanged engine sounds. So, not a single breakthrough in the entire PS3's lifespan...


@Tornado already nailed that one.


A quote from the GT5 times; they then bumped the resolution further and sacrificed the framerate even more for GT6. Progress?


Valid. They knew those specs, intimately, for as long as every other first-party dev, though.



You'd think the first and third underlined goals of yours would preclude PS2-era assets from being included, then...
I'm not sure about the intentions of your reply but I have no desire to discuss your recurring GT "half empty glass" viewpoint, my reply was about the suposed lack of Kaz's "humility" and "admit in public", things that have been cleared.
 
Well, how else are they going to go though?

Gran Turismo 7, Sunday Cup, Daytona oval

Would that make sense to anyone?

How about the PC sims like the GTRs/Raceroom? They begin based on racing leagues, and there are traditional first


Where they should go I don't know, but that's why I'm not a game designer and they are. All i'm saying is even with the limited scope a driving/racing game naturally offers in what you can do, all eventually ending up in a car on a track doing something there is more than one approach you can take in how you get there, and how you progress through the game. You can either do it like GT has basically done for every game or there are the more 'story' based approaches, or the racing career approach without a big story. I'm not saying either of those options suits GT, but simply that there are more ways to do things.

Even then with the example above, yes, even just changing the names of the events and using different tracks would make a small difference. It's not like these are real life racing series like F1 where they have to use the same events and tracks every game, they can do anything they like.

I just want them to go back to zero and really explore the different options and approaches to single player in Gran Turismo. The option they have taken for the last six games is far from the only one on the table.
 
It's not really humility if you intentionally defy your apology, as very notably was the case in one of those examples provided.

I just want them to go back to zero and really explore the different options and approaches to single player in Gran Turismo. The option they have taken for the last six games is far from the only one on the table.
Though it would certainly be a lot less contentious if they would stop dumbing it down for every game. Most of the issues (like the linearity, or the lack of imagination, or not bothering to utilize most of the game content) with the GT5/GT6 system simply weren't present in, say, GT4. It's much more blatant that the series is basically doing rolling repeats of GT1 events when much of the event variation introduced in the games following have been excised in GT5 and GT6 with little to actually replace it; and the absolute tons of potential that the games have now that they didn't before (with time change and weather change and point to point and etc.) is only given any attention in the occasional Seasonal, if that.
 
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Indeed. They shouldn't have special events for weather and time cycling, they should be random throughout the whole game. Having 'rainmaster' events where it's magically programmed to always rain is silly. Night racing less so, as that is and can be planned but they still certainly didn't take advantage of what they had in the GT6 events I played.

It seems to have become a common theme of GT5 and GT6. Not making full use of what they have.

I just don't know how people are happy to essentially play the same game over and over. Fire up GT7, buy a car for 20,000 credits, get your B license and then do the Sunday Cup on Autumn Ring Mini. Except the aforementioned games that are locked in their content like the F1 games I don't know any other game that does that. I don't play Call Of Duty but despite everyone saying they're all the same i'm pretty sure you don't play each one with the same characters in the same environments.
 
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there is more than one approach you can take in how you get there, and how you progress through the game. You can either do it like GT has basically done for every game or there are the more 'story' based approaches, or the racing career approach without a big story. I'm not saying either of those options suits GT, but simply that there are more ways to do things.
While this is true, to an extent, every sports game, fighting game and similar types have a little bit of "Madden" in them. With American football and European futbol, you have the typical beginning of the season in which the teams are all rusty to some extent, giving you the chance to ease into the game, even if they were the reigning champions of last year. Fighting games, the same thing. Often, the first challenge is the champ from last game who suddenly is an old fart that barely knows how to fight.

With a new GT game, I want to get those little simple tracks out of the way, the Tahiti Roads, the Autumn Ring Mini, Tsukuba etc, and there's just not much you can do with that but copy and paste from the previous Gran Turismo.

Now, one thing which does shake things up quite a bit is my GT Pro notion, where you end up in some sort of variation of Toca and Project CARS. And this is a mode you can switch to and from freely, something I forgot to mention a few times, like dropping out of GT Mode and doing some Arcade races. This would be radically different, and provide quite a change of pace from the usual GT game. And is what I hope is a part of Amar's GT Evolution.
 
With a new GT game, I want to get those little simple tracks out of the way, the Tahiti Roads, the Autumn Ring Mini, Tsukuba etc, and there's just not much you can do with that but copy and paste from the previous Gran Turismo.
Dude, you must be joking. There's not much you can do but copy and paste from previous Gran Turismos? Seriously?

The options for extremely rigid by their very nature professional sports games in no way compares to the almost infinite variety of racing options and combinations available in motorsports.
 
While this is true, to an extent, every sports game, fighting game and similar types have a little bit of "Madden" in them. With American football and European futbol, you have the typical beginning of the season in which the teams are all rusty to some extent, giving you the chance to ease into the game, even if they were the reigning champions of last year. Fighting games, the same thing. Often, the first challenge is the champ from last game who suddenly is an old fart that barely knows how to fight.

As I said, some games are limited in what they can do, such as those you mentioned. A football game has to be structured to follow real life football, an F1 game has to follow the real F1 season and so on. A GT game does not, it can do whatever it wants.

With a new GT game, I want to get those little simple tracks out of the way, the Tahiti Roads, the Autumn Ring Mini, Tsukuba etc, and there's just not much you can do with that but copy and paste from the previous Gran Turismo.

I get what you're saying with the small/"beginner" tracks early but it certainly doesn't have to be copy/paste. Like I said earlier, even a little variety goes a long way. How about instead of a Sunday Cup with two seperate races at two/three laps each we start with short one make cheap championship, and have five races on short tracks but maybe save Autumn Ring mini for a little later. As I say once you get to the track there isn't much variety you can have, it always boils down to just X car on Y track but the setup can certainly be more interesting.

It should also be about player choice, forcing people to take part in events they don't want to just to progress is bad design. Let players choose their own path through the game, allow them to 'replace' events they don't like. So just a quick example if people want to start out doing a series of kart races or championships, let them. No Sunday Cup, just straight into karts. Or for someone else let them buy a road car and tailor the first races to that car, if it's an old 60s lightweight have the first events be a beginner track day type event in those cars.

Another point are the license tests. These haven't changed in years either, some of them are even still the same exact tests. How about a complete overhaul of these and make them more like real racing license tests? No pressure of beating a time in one corner with an FF car then an FR car, just some basic tests to teach you what is required of driving and racing at X level (B National, Pro etc) and then you earn the license itself through x number of clean races and being fast enough. Want to earn the highest level license to race Le Mans? Prove you can drive at that level throughout your career. In real life you don't get to race in F1 by completing 5-10 time trials under a certain time.

Those are just examples and certainly not perfect but it illustrates what I'm getting at, a little forward thinking beyond the old formula would do wonders to spice things up.
 
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The one in particular sure showed their long term commitment to change.
To be fair, the FR-S and BRZ S actually do have aesthetic and slight performance differences, albeit minor.
I still believe we only need the Honda versions of any duplicates in the Acura dealership. Things like the original R35 and the 2012 R35 are fine by me, because they do have differences in performance and small external differences. One thing I'm not fine with is having all of those MX-5 NA clones with the same premium exterior; it's absolutely ridiculous.
 
Dude, you must be joking. There's not much you can do but copy and paste from previous Gran Turismos? Seriously?

The options for extremely rigid by their very nature professional sports games in no way compares to the almost infinite variety of racing options and combinations available in motorsports.
And @Samus, I think I'll mush your replies together.

Yes, but this is because of the seemingly endless venues available, and the numerous countries with their various rules or lack thereof in enthusiast racing. Which in any game is logistically impossible. So every game has a handful of simpler "beginner" tracks, which are used in easier beginner races. Now, if you have any groundbreaking ideas in this regard, I'm all eyes.

One thing which would be is for PD to go crazy with the fantasy tracks, or whatever smaller venues they can license, but fantasy tracks don't require laser scanning as someone mentioned previously. Make a handful of track complexes at various locations around the world like the Tahitis, and set up each one with different available cars, and likely, different prize cars. This is more work, so I'm not sure how viable an idea it is.

Besides, some of these ideas cut into the turf of my GT Pro concept, and I'm finding that I can't harp on it enough. I really want to see this in GT7. While variety in GT Mode would be good, I would like any overlap to be minimal. Plus, the more you mess with a proven formula, the more chance you have of messing something up. Like, a bunch of us were disappointed that there were no used cars in GT6. Every car was available in the dealerships from day 1. Which is okay, it means all you need is credits to get a car for an event, but likewise, all the surprises are gone, and while GT5 went too far the other way, I did like seeing a new gem with low miles popping up every few days.

There are a few people who apparently have an inside line to Kaz, plus I'm sure he and key members of the team are aware of meaningful discussions like this, so I'm anticipating some percolation of our notions manifesting in future GTs, if the world will just hold together and resist the urge to do stupid things and elect idiot leaders.
 
There would be nothing wrong with the GT5/6 career mode, if the AI was capable of providing a challenging racing experience.

For me a racing game should be about the racing - the bit from when the lights go out, to the checkered flag. If the racing makes me feel like I am in a real race, then I really don't care if I come first, mid-field or last. I just want to feel like I am racing.

I can happily do the same race over & over again, if it feels like racing - that is bit I am interested in.

Sadly GT has pretty much the worst racing AI I have ever encountered, ever.

It wouldn't really make any difference what they do with the career mode - it will always be dull as dishwater until they create an AI that is competitive.
 
To be fair, the FR-S and BRZ S actually do have aesthetic and slight performance differences, albeit minor.
I still believe we only need the Honda versions of any duplicates in the Acura dealership. Things like the original R35 and the 2012 R35 are fine by me, because they do have differences in performance and small external differences. One thing I'm not fine with is having all of those MX-5 NA clones with the same premium exterior; it's absolutely ridiculous.
The Honda/Acura ones are about the only regional variations (the copy-pasted concepts excepting) that they did right.
 
There would be nothing wrong with the GT5/6 career mode, if the AI was capable of providing a challenging racing experience.

This. Career mode isn't merely a matter of getting through it once - that only takes what, a few weeks or months depending on how much you play - it's the replay value that makes it interesting for a year, two years, three... Do all the races of various catagories to get your broad experience out of the way and then go back and re-race the ones you liked the most. Re-race in all the different cars that go with the class, re-race in cars that can be tuned up to class, re-race in cars that are well below the performance to see if you can still keep up.

Even in GT5 I got tremendous replay value in doing the seasonal races at the Nordschleife repeatedly testing all kinds of cars (and getting my million per lap :) Until they started screwing up seasonals by forcing SRF and taking away the good rounds. I hated the AI tendency to park when you approach them, but I could still enjoy either blowing past them right away and enjoying clean air for the rest of the race, or put together a car that could just barely win. And also, I probably did the 4-hour Nurburgring about 20 times, and both the 24-hour races 3 times. I did the 20-lap FGT race at Monaco more times than I could possibly count, Monza too... but I did all of the Formula GT races many times... even running them all on Comfort Hard tires eventually.

GT6 doesn't have as many of those replayable races and none of the endurance, and the AI is so ridiculous that there's no reason to try all of those things because no matter what, they will just slow down and let you win. Maybe that's part of why they still only have "super lap" seasonals and no race event seasonals. Tremendous waste of potential indeed.
 
Dude, you must be joking. There's not much you can do but copy and paste from previous Gran Turismos? Seriously?
And @Samus, I think I'll mush your replies together.

Yes, but this is because of the seemingly endless venues available, and the numerous countries with their various rules or lack thereof in enthusiast racing. Which in any game is logistically impossible. So every game has a handful of simpler "beginner" tracks, which are used in easier beginner races. Now, if you have any groundbreaking ideas in this regard, I'm all eyes.
Here are some ideas for you...settle in..it's a long read...
http://blog.codemasters.com/grid/05/discipline-progression-game-modes/

Pay particular attention to
Sponsors
Disciplines
Objectives
Weekly Challenges
Leaderboards
Online Custom Cup (includes Cockpit Cam only, individual disabling of Upgrades, Tuning and Assists and MT options!!:eek::eek:)
Party Mode:cheers:
 
There would be nothing wrong with the GT5/6 career mode, if the AI was capable of providing a challenging racing experience.

For me a racing game should be about the racing - the bit from when the lights go out, to the checkered flag. If the racing makes me feel like I am in a real race, then I really don't care if I come first, mid-field or last. I just want to feel like I am racing.

I can happily do the same race over & over again, if it feels like racing - that is bit I am interested in.

Sadly GT has pretty much the worst racing AI I have ever encountered, ever.

It wouldn't really make any difference what they do with the career mode - it will always be dull as dishwater until they create an AI that is competitive.

This. This sums it up completely. How can GT focus so much on immersion and realism when the awful AI throws you right out of the experience? No wonder endurance races were ditched - who wants to run a 24 hour race when it's all over 30 minutes in?
 
This. This sums it up completely. How can GT focus so much on immersion and realism when the awful AI throws you right out of the experience? No wonder endurance races were ditched - who wants to run a 24 hour race when it's all over 30 minutes in?
Improved AI is but the first step in improving the GT Career Mode. Even with perfect AI it in no way feels like a career in racing to me more like a collection of random races. No race weekends, no qualifying, no standing starts, no options, no difficulty adjustments, no flags, no real damage options etc.
 
Improved AI is but the first step in improving the GT Career Mode. Even with perfect AI it in no way feels like a career in racing to me more like a collection of random races. No race weekends, no qualifying, no standing starts, no options, no difficulty adjustments, no flags, no real damage options etc.

Absolutely. Basic things like this are stuff I forgave in earlier GT games just because of wow, industry-leading graphics and physics. We're six games in and still basic details are overlooked.
 
The whole game needs to focus, from the events to the car list. A standard road car with an RM like the first two GTs, and clubman events for the road cars and fully geared up seasons for the race mods where you do a season of races in a variety of conditions.

That fresh thinking would get me interested in GT again and promote its place in my collection from where it is now, given the odd twenty minutes every other month.
 
VXR
The whole game needs to focus, from the events to the car list. A standard road car with an RM like the first two GTs, and clubman events for the road cars and fully geared up seasons for the race mods where you do say 8 races in a variety of conditions.

That fresh thinking would get me interested in GT again and promote its place in my collection from where it is now, given the odd twenty minutes every other month.

That's a good way of putting it - focus. It feels too undisciplined, like Kaz has a short attention span and got distracted from career by a phone call from BMW about a new Vision GT or something. As I've said it's inexcusable that they can put so much work into graphics and physics, then a) not address basic long-standing problems like sound design and AI and b) neglect career and if anything make it less varied and challenging with each installment.

Fact is, if you enter a Super GT race with a Super GT car, you should not be blowing the opposition away by 3-5s per lap - or if you are, that should be on Easy difficulty, with options to go up.
 
Indeed. They shouldn't have special events for weather and time cycling, they should be random throughout the whole game. Having 'rainmaster' events where it's magically programmed to always rain is silly. Night racing less so, as that is and can be planned but they still certainly didn't take advantage of what they had in the GT6 events I played.

It seems to have become a common theme of GT5 and GT6. Not making full use of what they have.

I just don't know how people are happy to essentially play the same game over and over. Fire up GT7, buy a car for 20,000 credits, get your B license and then do the Sunday Cup on Autumn Ring Mini. Except the aforementioned games that are locked in their content like the F1 games I don't know any other game that does that. I don't play Call Of Duty but despite everyone saying they're all the same i'm pretty sure you don't play each one with the same characters in the same environments.
I disagree, but for a couple of fundamental reasons.

The problem with Gran Turismo is not it's design at it's core (keep in mind that almost every racing game follows the same GT1 root of starting with X credits to purchase X car and evolve in an RPG style progression, examples like Grid 2, Forza games, Simraceway, Test Drive, NFS from ... possibly Porsche and so on). Having that particular design model is not broken as per se, what is broken is the way PD corner themselves up in how to update it, best example of this was the xp system in GT5, which was shamefully copypasted from FM games and serve no purpose either for the game design, the progression system and the game economy.

In FM games the XP system worked because it was the experience barrier between faster and faster cars, forcing the player to grind more points in order to have enough driving experience and open up further sections of the game. In GT games there is the the license system which simulates such grind, but makes it faster by turning the game in trials to teach the player in how to handle the driving characteristics of the cars that will be used in further sections of the game, is a brilliant design, is smart and intuitive because it effectively level up the players in the shortest way possible.

Now, the big problem with GT games like 5 and 6 by far is simply it's structure, because of the online play being completely new to the series they had no idea in how to implement it, it was awfully implemented in GT5: P, it was more competently put together in GT5 and ultimately basic in GT6. Having an online component in the game compromises the single player experience since all the seasonal events served to complement the career mode, but they are shovel in after the game the career mode is finished and the game just is not affected by it (i.e. the Sebastian Vettel Challenge).

An Autum ring race is necessary to introduce the most basic principles of cornering to new players, a Sunday Cup is necessary to showcase the differences between corners, tracks and elevation changes. What online communities often forget is that GT6 is an entry level driving simulator, not a hardcore (mind you) simulator, people who might be shifting from games like NFS, burnout on in my case NFS III needed to see such example to understand the game, so that's not the problem.

The problem is having all these assets, all these systems and not having anything useful for them. The Lunar Rover missions were a prime example of how disoriented the design of the game is. GT6 did great by introducing the mission races, the coffee breaks and the license test into the system, that is the right way to do it, what is broken is the career races themselves.

Rainmasters race and midnight races should exist, what it shouldn't exist is not randomized races later in the game, I agree that after certain points in the game there should be randomized functions to make the most of the game systems, PD though that by doing it into the Endurance races it might work but it doesn't make the races better, it just pad them and since the endurance system was technical broken it make the latter section of the game a huge mess.


Career modes in GT5 and GT6 games are broken, but not because their system don't work but because their assets are not used accordingly. The have 3 main regions for car manufactures, they should do separate events or regional series which are an aside from the career mode, but design a Cr. system (or use the current system) in which such races are nearly mandatory, say a BMW special series to gain x amount of credit to buy a car to compete in X race to beat the best car in that race (GT4 did this almost flawlessly), some seasonal events should be put into the career mode to complement it rather than making them an online event only (for example a few seasonal having the prototype FT1 or the M4, it should be an event updated into the career mode, having one make race of FT-1s and the time trial to earn the car).

I agree that they should hire a game designer to work out these systems rather than having however is in PD to work it out, the core system is not broken but it's implementation is.


Imagine this, a GT game in which there are tunner events by having x list of cars to meet x list of requirements, have a wagon race line in GT2 but this time featuring cars like the RS6 and so on, have time trail series in Chamonix normal and snow, and a different car for each time the race is driven, but alter it's conditions, and then have a complete randomized one. The grinding is not severe as the game uses it's own system to make the game more varied, extend the use of FF, FR, MR and so on. If races of GT3 and GT2 cars are introduced, there should be to a point in which the randomized weather kicks in and the minimum amount of laps is 20 or 25, making the game even more varied.

As I see it, is not a failure in design but a failure on implementation, and that's where GT6 is really broken, a solid core concept with a broken implementation.


I don't like GT games to loose their identity, because everyone uses an XP system for example doesn't mean that it should be a standard, hence why I was so pleased in how the stupid XP system was ditched from GT6 a-spec, it might work for b spec but it has no business existing into the a-spec realm, games should persevere some identity and keep themselves away from becoming generic.


Finally, developers can be assholes, they can be full of themselves but the whole point for them is to come up with a competent design, I don't get the hate for Kaz at this point, yes he produces the game but he solely doesn't make the game. Humility is inconsequential to mechanical design, mechanical design solely depends on the creativity of a person, not it's attitude (See Peter Molyneux and the fable games, which were never good from the first one and was so blinded by it's own delusional conception of the game that ended up making the games even more stupid, his only job was to design, produce and develop the game and he didn't, he just PR a delusional construction of a game rather than actually doing it). If they fail to acknowledge the flaws in the game is their problem but I don't see why they should be apologetic about it.

And to it's defence (yeah, burn me you silly people) he is just a guy that often do trackdays, talk about cars, talk about racing and do racing (endurance racing) apart from producing a game, as far as we know the second in charge might be overlooking the whole planing and production process while KY is either at Germany, or England, or Spain or Brazil doing racing or whatever, not related to any of the GT games, other than announcements (because he is the CEO of PD) I don't see him doing much in the sense of game design or game planing, given whatever dates set by Sony. Having him doing all that and also the other sidetrack thing he does with his life ended up making him care less about GT games by distance himself from it, leaving other people in charge of planing and production leaving us with ... this. KY is guilty though of not hiring more staff that controls the whole planing and production of the game, it needs an associate producer who can get in charge of stuff properly, it needs a game design advisor who can tell the game planer what will and will not work, they need that kind of workfoce, not what everyone around here says that "hur PD should hire more people hur hur", that's not the solution, a strong sense of planing is required which is what PD needs to produce the game properly, not by hiring more people but by having more people to help out with the design of the game. This worked perfectly for Forza Horizon, Playground games and former people from Codemasters, not because they need a whole studio to complement with the design but because they had a couple of planners that saw the FM system, saw how the games worked and had experience on the matter and design the game work on it's own.



(My apologizes, this was atrociously worded apart from being a wall of text)
 
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And @Samus, I think I'll mush your replies together.

Yes, but this is because of the seemingly endless venues available, and the numerous countries with their various rules or lack thereof in enthusiast racing. Which in any game is logistically impossible. So every game has a handful of simpler "beginner" tracks, which are used in easier beginner races. Now, if you have any groundbreaking ideas in this regard, I'm all eyes.

I already gave them above. Why does a beginner track have to be short? Is that a rule? Do people lose concentration over a slightly longer lap, even if the total race time is the same? I doubt it. Like I said, even a tiny change helps negate the feeling of doing the same thing over and over. GT has plenty of tracks, they don't need to use the same ones for each event in each game. Also just simply renaming and slightly tweaking the names of the events helps. When I see Sunday Cup and Autumn Ring mini my mind just thinks "Oh what, again?".

One thing which would be is for PD to go crazy with the fantasy tracks, or whatever smaller venues they can license, but fantasy tracks don't require laser scanning as someone mentioned previously. Make a handful of track complexes at various locations around the world like the Tahitis, and set up each one with different available cars, and likely, different prize cars. This is more work, so I'm not sure how viable an idea it is.

Well as above, there is no rule that says you have to start out on small, baby circuits. Even if they do they have plenty to utilise already.

Plus, the more you mess with a proven formula, the more chance you have of messing something up.

That is exactly what I want them to do though. Not mess up, but be brave, push away from the same old same old and try something different. It can't go that wrong, and there is always scope to correct or improve it later on. The safe, boring approach for PD and GT7 would be the same old copy/paste career mode, same old events, same old license tests. I don't want that, I want them to be adventerous, try and do something new. Be revolutionary, like they were originally with the whole concept.

GT Mode might be a proven formula but it's extremely stale. I can't believe anyone still get's actually excited simply by the prospect of how the mode is set

Like, a bunch of us were disappointed that there were no used cars in GT6. Every car was available in the dealerships from day 1. Which is okay, it means all you need is credits to get a car for an event, but likewise, all the surprises are gone, and while GT5 went too far the other way, I did like seeing a new gem with low miles popping up every few days.

It didn't stop you playing it though, did it? Besides that is a rather specific example of change in gameplay, with the context of a career mode what could they do that totally alienates some older fans that they simply stop playing/don't buy it?

There are a few people who apparently have an inside line to Kaz, plus I'm sure he and key members of the team are aware of meaningful discussions like this, so I'm anticipating some percolation of our notions manifesting in future GTs, if the world will just hold together and resist the urge to do stupid things and elect idiot leaders.

Well I've been hoping for something to change since GT4 but nothing so far. I'm not exactly hopeful for GT7.


An Autum ring race is necessary to introduce the most basic principles of cornering to new players, a Sunday Cup is necessary to showcase the differences between corners, tracks and elevation changes. What online communities often forget is that GT6 is an entry level driving simulator, not a hardcore (mind you) simulator, people who might be shifting from games like NFS, burnout on in my case NFS III needed to see such example to understand the game, so that's not the problem.

Events like those may be necessary but those exact ones are not. Like I said above to TenD it's surprising how just changing a few little parts of something whilst it still being essentially the same can make the human brain appreciate it more.

Also as per my previous post, why not start out with a GT Academy style event? Obviously negate all the non-driving tests, those won't work in game, but why not use GT Academy as more than just a yearly event add on. Why not integrate that whole idea into the game itself? Get your first basic licence and learn your basic driving skills not by completing menial license tests and lapping small cars at Autumn Ring Mini, learn it in a more realistic manner, the same way someone might learn to go racing in the real world.

The problem is having all these assets, all these systems and not having anything useful for them. The Lunar Rover missions were a prime example of how disoriented the design of the game is. GT6 did great by introducing the mission races, the coffee breaks and the license test into the system, that is the right way to do it, what is broken is the career races themselves.

The races themselves though are another issue entirely, I'm talking purely about the pre-race structure of the single player game. I've acknoledged there is only a limited scope for what you can do, following roughly the zero to hero progression idea but GT has not changed it even slightly since GT1. They've moved things around and used different barriers to stop you progressing but fire up GT1 and you're presented with a near identical experience to GT6.

I just want them to do something differently, even if it's only slight.


Career modes in GT5 and GT6 games are broken, but not because their system don't work but because their assets are not used accordingly. The have 3 main regions for car manufactures, they should do separate events or regional series which are an aside from the career mode, but design a Cr. system (or use the current system) in which such races are nearly mandatory, say a BMW special series to gain x amount of credit to buy a car to compete in X race to beat the best car in that race (GT4 did this almost flawlessly), some seasonal events should be put into the career mode to complement it rather than making them an online event only (for example a few seasonal having the prototype FT1 or the M4, it should be an event updated into the career mode, having one make race of FT-1s and the time trial to earn the car).

I didn't say their systems don't work, just that they're old and tired and in need of a refresh. I already suggested a few simple changes in the previous post, like what Forza did, catering the career to the cars you have/buy. Not saying they should do that, but it's just an example of a minor tweak to the zero to hero format. There are surely many more game designers could think of.

I don't like GT games to loose their identity, because everyone uses an XP system for example doesn't mean that it should be a standard, hence why I was so pleased in how the stupid XP system was ditched from GT6 a-spec, it might work for b spec but it has no business existing into the a-spec realm, games should persevere some identity and keep themselves away from becoming generic.

The star system in GT6 is just a thinly veiled XP system though. It's fine for GT to have an identity, and not to sound like a broken record, but a time comes for that identity to evolve and change into something new. If GT7 arrives and it's just "Buy a car for 20,000 credits, get your B license by completing 10 menial driving tests then head out to the Sunday Cup on Autumn Ring Mini" I'll be very disappointed.
 

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