GT6 Sales Discussion

[Griffith500]

Whilst making a Flappy Bird clone might not be the greatest thing to do, I'll bet that like everyone else you checked Flappy Bird out when you heard about it's popularity. Maybe you played it, maybe you didn't, but you at least looked. From there it's up to the game, but the numbers draw a bunch of people who otherwise wouldn't bother to give a game the time of day. It's not a certain purchase, just as a poster or a TV spot isn't a certain purchase. It's just creating awareness.

That's all numbers do. They aren't necessarily an indicator of a good game, Lord knows there's probably hundreds of awful games that sold far more than they have any right to, but if a company has a game that is generating those sort of numbers then they'd be fools not to use them.

Awareness of a product is about more than sales numbers; that is: sales numbers alone are not a motivator for purchase, as per my original point. I've certainly lusted after games before they've even sold a single unit, and the more sales a game makes, the more stories are being shared, which is far more important.

So sales are a part of the mechanism of spreading interest, intrinsically, but are not a direct motivator because those stories would spread regardless of whether the sales figures were known. The sales are a byproduct of the primary aim of a game (to entertain), as far as gamers are concerned - obviously that primality / causality is reversed for the majority of producers, also my original point. Which technically makes releasing sales figures a form of marketing, so is standard fare in terms of the cluelessness of such practices.

I heard about Flappy Bird primarily because of the phenomenon where a lot of people (producers) thought it was what people want, and made cynical, unironic and completely unsuccessful clones to "cash in" on a market they naïvely thought existed based on Flappy Bird's "success"; thus highlighting the fallacy of sales figures alone motivating further sales beautifully (the host of free, largely ironic clones and tributes only adding to that juicy confusion). I've played several Flappy Bird clones before Flappy Bird was even made, but none were as successful (most were free) as Flappy Bird, despite almost all of them being "better" in every possible way; another amusing (and illuminating) dimension to the whole situation.

 

[mister dog]

Regardless if you yourself enjoy GT6 (or others for that matter), this thread is more to find out if GT6 is a commercial success like it's predecessors were, or if it failed in that regard. The latter seems the case and IMO only rightly so.

Maybe they finally see this as a sign they rather focus on quality instead of quantity...

 

[Griffith500]

Regardless if you yourself enjoy GT6 (or others for that matter), this thread is more to find out if GT6 is a commercial success like it's predecessors were, or if it failed in that regard. The latter seems the case and IMO only rightly so.

Maybe they finally see this as a sign they rather focus on quality instead of quantity...

There isn't enough evidence to confirm that either way. That won't stop people drawing their own conclusions, pre-supposed or otherwise.

I'm pretty sure we'll be getting another game, so I'm quite happy no matter the actual numbers.

 

[mister dog]

I'm pretty sure we'll be getting another game, so I'm quite happy no matter the actual numbers.

For sure GT will continue on PS4, just a matter of waiting and seeing if they can get their act together again. Like i said that's were low sales could make them rethink on what they are doing and where they are heading if they keep on like this. But then again this is PD we are talking about...

 

[Griffith500]

The danger in steering your design focus according to sales figures, without being able to properly deconstruct all the influences on those sales figures (which is impossible), is that you can overreact as easily as not react enough. Many a franchise has been ruined by "chasing sales". Clearly, not reacting to them at all is probably stupid, unless sales aren't your goal.

I'm sure someone somewhere at Sony is making a lot of noise, assuming the sales figures aren't "good enough" (which we can't ever know), but once again, it's the long game that matters. I'm not claiming that GT6 is everything it could be, but there's nothing to suggest that it's everything PD wanted it to be, either. In fact, it's clear there's a lot that PD would like to have been able to include, and still could yet (potentially); what doesn't make it should roll over to PS4, but there's no guarantee that it'll be what you're dreaming of.

I hope that you get the game you want, whether it wears the GT badge or not.

 

[TheCrazySwede]

I was scanning through this thread and decided to jump to the last page...and found out this had turned into a Flappy Bird discussion, haha.

Jokes aside, I doubt PD will look at their sales numbers and put two-and-two together. Kaz thinks so incredibly highly of himself that he's going to shove GT6 under the carpet and then focus on GT7 and emphasize on more useless features without actually addressing any of GT's shortcomings.

I'm a GT fan, and as much as my wallet will hate me for this, I'm probably going to pre-order GT7. The only difference between the today me and the me that pre-ordered GT5 and GT6, is that I no longer have any expectations of improvement. That's the only way to really embrace GT games these days.

 

[sumbrownkid]

I don't see how Kaz thinks highly of himself, especially in an age where any douche with a Twitter account can say YOLOSWAG for any pointless debate.

 

[stucar17]

I was scanning through this thread and decided to jump to the last page...and found out this had turned into a Flappy Bird discussion, haha.

Jokes aside, I doubt PD will look at their sales numbers and put two-and-two together. Kaz thinks so incredibly highly of himself that he's going to shove GT6 under the carpet and then focus on GT7 and emphasize on more useless features without actually addressing any of GT's shortcomings.

I'm a GT fan, and as much as my wallet will hate me for this, I'm probably going to pre-order GT7. The only difference between the today me and the me that pre-ordered GT5 and GT6, is that I no longer have any expectations of improvement. That's the only way to really embrace GT games these days.

I tend to agree Crazy, but the one difference i have with you is i wont be pre-ordering, but waiting for C.A.R.S to show and see what its like. I know my league has 80 odd drivers that are just about fed up with the GT6 issues and will change if the game is right. Simple glitches not being fixed is a constant frustration, and OT wont do anything for their future sales figures.

People will only take so much, and as frustrating as it is, its more disappointing that we are looking for something more, after so much time enjoying the GT franchise. Its OK for PD to claim the have "the ultimate driving simulator" but for the bulk of the hardcore leagues we need more than driving, we want a realistic "racing" simulator giving us the things that PD refuse to.

Again, OT, if they dont address it soon, i think they will be in for a rude shock with their sales figures moving forward, because we have all moved to something that provides us with what we want, a polished, plug and play race title.

 

[TheCrazySwede]

I tend to agree Crazy, but the one difference i have with you is i wont be pre-ordering, but waiting for C.A.R.S to show and see what its like. I know my league has 80 odd drivers that are just about fed up with the GT6 issues and will change if the game is right. Simple glitches not being fixed is a constant frustration, and OT wont do anything for their future sales figures.

People will only take so much, and as frustrating as it is, its more disappointing that we are looking for something more, after so much time enjoying the GT franchise. Its OK for PD to claim the have "the ultimate driving simulator" but for the bulk of the hardcore leagues we need more than driving, we want a realistic "racing" simulator giving us the things that PD refuse to.

Again, OT, if they dont address it soon, i think they will be in for a rude shock with their sales figures moving forward, because we have all moved to something that provides us with what we want, a polished, plug and play race title.

You're absolutely right, Stucar.

I can be wrong, but back when GT first came out, it was pretty much the only shark in the tank, so to speak. If you wanted a driving sim on your home console, GT was your only choice. It was like that for a while, until other games like Project Gotham Racing, Forza Motorsport and those Colin McRae rally games started coming to consoles. Perhaps, and this is just pure speculation, PD still believes they are alone in this race, so they are only focusing on their own work, developing on their own pace and thus not moving along with the times. I think if PD scheduled a few meetings for their staff just to sit down and look around them to notice what other games are doing at that very moment, they would probably start to understand why GT fans are disappearing.

Let's be honest here. As much of a technological masterpiece GT is or claims to be, it fails at being good at the most important part of its existence: being a game.
I think PolyphonyD, and maybe Kaz himself, has lost track of that. I think they are trying way too hard to make GT something it's not. They think it's turning into some sort of "Second Life" equivalent of a racing game. Honestly, I don't give two ****s about any of that stuff. I just want a GAME where I can hop in and play and actually have fun. I can't play a single race in GT5/GT6 without being disappointing or frustrated about something. That's not really a pleasant experience. If you take older Nintendo games, like A Link to the Past and the Super Mario Bros. games, you'll notice that, compared to today's standards, their graphics suck, the controls are simple and non-engaging, the score is mediocre, and so forth. However, they are such brilliant and fun games to play, that none of those other things matter. That is what makes a good game. I think PD has completely lost track of that.

 

[Tenacious D]

Kaz thinks so incredibly highly of himself that he's going to shove GT6 under the carpet and then focus on GT7 and emphasize on more useless features without actually addressing any of GT's shortcomings.

You sound like you haven't read a single interview with Kaz, or his views on his games. If anything, it's the opposite of what you think. I'm sure that not just he, but the entire team takes Gran Turismo very personally.

 

[machschnel]

You sound like you haven't read a single interview with Kaz, or his views on his games. If anything, it's the opposite of what you think. I'm sure that not just he, but the entire team takes Gran Turismo very personally.

He has probably read them all, but he has also played the games - a much more accurate representation of what Gran Turismo is, don't you think?

 

[MeanElf]

He has probably read them all, but he has also played the games - a much more accurate representation of what Gran Turismo is, don't you think?

Not really, as personal experience and expectations are subjective - news items not handled by bad journalists, are not.

 

[TheCrazySwede]

You sound like you haven't read a single interview with Kaz, or his views on his games. If anything, it's the opposite of what you think. I'm sure that not just he, but the entire team takes Gran Turismo very personally.

I've read a ton and even watched the recent documentary regarding Kaz and his efforts.
Like I mentioned, I'm a huge GT fan. This is despite all my harsh words towards the matter.
I love Gran Turismo. I love what it does, but I'm not a fan of how it does it. What PD has managed to do with this game is incredible, but it's being held back by so many conflicts and it bothers me that the minds over at PD, and knowing how brilliant they are, can't seem to figure out a way to fix them, or even show any sign of making an effort to do so.

The reason why I feel that Kaz feels so highly of himself, and why I believe he'll opt for shoving GT6 under the carpet, is due to his way of presenting his work. I have never met the man, so my interpretation of him could most likely be entirely wrong, but from what I've seen and comprehend, he never, not once, not ever, seems to understand that his recent GT titles have had some major flaws. He doesn't even address the fans regarding all of the feedback GT is getting. I've never seen an interview where Kaz says, "Look, I know the cars don't sound too great, but we are working on it and you can expect a solution for this in (The coming months/Next GT Title.)" Instead, what do we get? An interview where Kaz mentions that the cars sound "too realistic." Are you ****ing kidding me? Really? That's your response?

(Link to that interview: https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turis...e-kazunori-yamauchis-2012-gtplanet-interview/)

That's why I see him as someone who thinks too highly of himself and his efforts, and that's just one example where the subject is engine sounds. I can mention a ton of examples where that sort of attitude is what we get from Kaz when genuine questions and concerns are brought up from fans. But no, according to Kaz, there is nothing wrong with GT5/GT6 and everyone else is wrong. That sort of attitude is horrible when you're moving to a new generation of consoles and gaming. It's like moving to a new house and bringing all of the garbage along with you. If Kaz fails to see what is broken with the GT titles, then those faults will carry over to the new titles. That's why I believe Kaz will just shove it all under the rag as if there's nothing there to fix and keep moving on to GT7.

 

[TheCrazySwede]

On a side note, big round of applauds to CodeMasters for their latest announcement of their new GRID title. The fans didn't like GRID 2, and in respose (and I'm paraphrasing here) CM basically said, in almost every interview, "Sorry lads. We know we F'ed up with GRID 2, but now we are here to make things right."

That's a developer acknowledging what their fans want and delivering. That's something PD desperately needs.

 

[Griffith500]

Kaz actually did say that sound is not acceptable in its current form (EDIT: this interview, third question, second-last paragraph, first line). And before that (Silverstone GT6 event last year) he'd said they were working on it, without being asked about it. The "too realistic" comment is the same thing he said about the graphics once, after which came day / night cycles and weather, plus skidmarks...

I don't know whether Kaz thinks highly of himself or not, but you probably should pay more attention to what he says.


By the way, of course Codies would say that. We'll all hope they mean it. A lot of "non serious" gamers quite enjoyed the aesthetic and attitude of GRiD 2, though, so I'd expect that to stay in some form.

 

[Samus]

GTP: Are the engine sounds that we hear in the demo representative of what we will hear in the final game?

KY: “No, those are just in there as sound effects.”

Well that was quite the porky, wasn't it.

 

[Tenacious D]

He has probably read them all, but he has also played the games - a much more accurate representation of what Gran Turismo is, don't you think?

No, I still disagree.

You may hate GT5 and 6, and that's your prerogative as a human. But you have to understand that obviously not everyone agrees with that attitude. GT5, apparently the worst GT ever until 6, sold faster than GT4 did. And what happened with GT6 has already been speculated to death, so I won't bore you with what should be well known board chat by now.

You guys on that side also forget something. Much of that team has been there since GT1. They have a legacy. You guys act like the first four games, all wildly popular, either never happened, or were made by a whole different bunch. These people know how to make good games. I'll admit that GT5 and 6 were rather fluky games. But even GT5, hamstrung by some truly bizarre design decisions which you should also be well familiar with, was still fairly popular. Maybe you spent the last three years being a grinch, but the rest of us were enjoying ourselves in spite of the weird, annoying bits. To many of us, GT6 is a better game - and yes, we played it. I have the replay files to prove I did.

We remain fans, because Gran Turismo has something that no other racer has. It has to be because Polyphony Digital, and their boss, are special people. Kind of like Square Enix, who have made some flukey Final Fantasys because they reinvent the universe except for a couple of items every game. We keep coming back to Gran Turismo because that essence in each game is unique, and we're addicted, and we're looking forward to the possibilities brought to life on PS4, whenever that comes.

Believe it or not, there are good things to be found in GT5 and 6, and we expect the same in GT7. End of story.

 

[Samus]

You guys on that side also forget something. Much of that team has been there since GT1. They have a legacy. You guys act like the first four games, all wildly popular, either never happened, or were made by a whole different bunch. These people know how to make good games.

I can only speak for myself of course but that isn't the problem or what I think, the problem is that they just kept making the same game over and over again, stuck seemingly in 1997. What they were doing back then was revolutionary, the problem is the majority of that same team don't seem to have expanded their ideas, for whatever reason.

If you level the visuals GT6 is what, 90% the same game as GT1? I'm not talking about the physics, which of course have improved hugely, I'm talking the 'game' part. It just hasn't changed any great deal. Now I know what you're going to say, why change something that works, but there comes a time for any successful idea/project to evolve. For GT as a game for me that was around GT4 time, but they didn't.

 

[Tenacious D]

Well, a few of us have said that if PD had basically cloned the events of GT4 with the physics and everything else from the GT6 engine, that would have made a fantastic GT6. I might have been the only one to mention the inclusion of the cruise missile bots from GT4, can't remember.

I think the problem with GT5 is that they tried to expand the GT philosophy in an Asian way that didn't even appeal to Asians, and not many in the west cared for at all. I think the problem with GT6 is that Kaz intended to expand the game in some more traditional fashion and got rushed by the release date. I think the bot code is unfinished, and I'm thinking they intended to do some of that expansion this spring and summer, with new tracks, cars and events like the Senna content. But now with rumors of Prologue muddying the waters, we don't know what PD are doing.

And... that's where we are now, waiting for E3 or some interview with Kaz or some SONY guy to clear things up. I keep thinking that E3 is going to be a PS4 show, including Gran Turismo, so it's going to be interesting to see the reaction here if it is.

Quick edit: I'm one of the guys wanting Gran Turismo to evolve, the guy who keeps bringing up GT Pro Mode and all that.

 

[Samus]

Again I'm not talking about AI or sound, I'm talking about the gameplay experience as a whole, what you 'do', not how you do it or experience it. With GT1 they gave us a totally new game experience, buying a cheap car, completing licenses, picking races from a list to complete at any time etc etc. What they've failed to do from my point of view is expand on that core idea. Sure they added some extra 'special' events and fiddled with the license test format in some games, they changed how you progress (licenses/XP/stars) but at the core it was still the same. The races were even the same, with the same tracks and the same cars featured in them.

Gran Turismo 1, Sunday Cup, Autumn Ring Mini
Gran Turismo 6, Sunday Cup, Autumn Ring Mini

To bring this somewhat back on topic perhaps this is why people have finally given up on the game? Maybe AI and sounds they could live with, but the stale gameplay was just too much. Nobody knows of course, but I just hope the low sales are the big wake up call PD needed to do something new and fresh, not a 90% copy/paste of their first idea. It was revolutionary in GT1 and I was still happy with it by GT3 but by 4 it was getting stale, with the two PS3 games painfully so, especially combined with the AI format/pace.

 

[Jump_Ace]

If numbers were even halfway decent (Say 4 - 5 million) PD would surely have released official numbers, as in the past. The fact they haven't suggests to me they're not good and PD aren't proud of the numbers.

Not proud of the numbers, not proud of the work.


Jerome

 

[Imari]

By the way, of course Codies would say that.

Yes, and we could all hope for Polyphony to at least pretend to have that sort of humility, instead of telling us bollocks like their sounds are too perfect.

There's something to be said for people who will admit in public that they done stuffed up, even if secretly they don't mean it. It shows that they're making a game for their customers, not some shiny manufacturer advertising platform.

 

[stucar17]

I can only speak for myself of course but that isn't the problem or what I think, the problem is that they just kept making the same game over and over again, stuck seemingly in 1997. What they were doing back then was revolutionary, the problem is the majority of that same team don't seem to have expanded their ideas, for whatever reason.

If you level the visuals GT6 is what, 90% the same game as GT1? I'm not talking about the physics, which of course have improved hugely, I'm talking the 'game' part. It just hasn't changed any great deal. Now I know what you're going to say, why change something that works, but there comes a time for any successful idea/project to evolve. For GT as a game for me that was around GT4 time, but they didn't.

Have to say i agree with you samus, "What they were doing back then was revolutionary" is a great point and relates directly to the issues today, 5 versions of the game, and 17 YEARS later.

Like tenacious, i am a huge fan of the franchise, but am at the point where i have realized that it seems to be "revolving" instead of "evolving". 2 very different things.

Gt will always have a market, there is no doubt, however that market will start to shrink rapidly when the bulk of the fans / racers have something that fills the holes GT has. I think that people are a little blase and disillusioned with it all and are now willing to look elsewhere, knowing that some of the titles are looking to make a big dent in their sales by offering what GT doesnt, or wont.

If they were to add the best bits of each competitors game, and what they had done over the past 17 years GT would, in my opinion, be untouchable, for the casual driver and also the hardcore league racer, unfortunately though it seems that the series is lost somewhere in the middle.

 

[Tornado]

There's something to be said for people who will admit in public that they done stuffed up, even if secretly they don't mean it.

To be fair, Kaz spent most of the time closely following GT5's release acknowledging the validity of specific criticisms with little intention (as GT6 has ultimately shown) of actually doing anything about them; so on that they are ahead of the game.

 

[gtracedriver1]

They will definitely post the numbers. But I guess 5million is min. Anything less than that they will not post it on the official site. If it has not reached 5millions in couple more months. Then 10million life time sales will be unlikely. Unless they combine it with PS4 GT6 version and club it together.

Anyhow I think it is still number1 selling racing game. But with PS4 hype and GT game on it will definitely help them. DC has beautiful tracks so it is trying to make a good impression on PS4 racing fans, Pcars also has a good chance if it turns out to be good. Not sure EA will publish their game.

 

[Zer0]

Yes, and we could all hope for Polyphony to at least pretend to have that sort of humility, instead of telling us bollocks like their sounds are too perfect.

There's something to be said for people who will admit in public that they done stuffed up, even if secretly they don't mean it. It shows that they're making a game for their customers, not some shiny manufacturer advertising platform.

Engine sounds
Kaz: "…obviously that’s not good enough for GT6 and for the future. We’ve been working on a new system for generating sounds for a few years now, we just haven’t made that breakthrough yet, and we’re still working. That’s what we’re aiming for – to make that breakthrough – so that we have something of a high quality to show."

Japanese cars
Kaz: "…it’s true that there is a lot of variations depending on the model, and that’s probably because we’ve been affected strongly by the automotive culture in Japan from the 1990′s. [...] Back then there was meaning to each of the fine differences, and the selection of which model variation to drive was important to a user. Looking at it now I also think that there’s too many.”

Frame-rate
Kaz: "Our engineers complain every day: 'Isn't it enough that it's in 1080p? Does it have to be 60fps too?' But I think 60fps is very important, so we're working towards perfecting that. There might be times when you have a certain combination of conditions that come together - especially with the weather effects - [when] the game might briefly drop from 60fps, and for that I beg your forgiveness!

Limitations
Kazunori also confirmed the PlayStation 3′s lack of memory was “a serious concern” during the development of GT5, saying that “we just have to do our best” to get what performance they can out of the hardware.

Goals
Kaz: “The objectives of Gran Turismo are very simple actually. We want people to enjoy the beauty of cars, we want people to enjoy driving, and we want people to enjoy the beauty of the environments. Those are things that have remained the same throughout the series, and it’s the same for GT6.”

To critize with some criterium people should first need to know and understand very well the product and its target, things rarely seen in these discusions...

 

[MeanElf]

Again I'm not talking about AI or sound, I'm talking about the gameplay experience as a whole, what you 'do', not how you do it or experience it. With GT1 they gave us a totally new game experience, buying a cheap car, completing licenses, picking races from a list to complete at any time etc etc. What they've failed to do from my point of view is expand on that core idea. Sure they added some extra 'special' events and fiddled with the license test format in some games, they changed how you progress (licenses/XP/stars) but at the core it was still the same. The races were even the same, with the same tracks and the same cars featured in them...

I'm not so sure that might appease as many people as you think. From my experience with the Milestone WRC games, they chopped and changed the career structure around quite a bit for 3 and 4 and had a fair amount of moaners crop up to state their dissastisfaction. I suppose in that case, developers are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

I do agree that the (by most) hallowed GT4 was quite tedious for me in its career structure - GT5 felt more refreshed, even though, as you say, we basically got much the same, except a silghtly shorter experience.

Yes, and we could all hope for Polyphony to at least pretend to have that sort of humility, instead of telling us bollocks like their sounds are too perfect...

To be fair, that was a comment from quite some time a go (discussed already on this thread in the past ten hours) which Kazunori-san has come back to at least twice since, and admitted that due to feedback, more work did in fact need doing on the sounds.

EDIT: Ahh, I see I've been beaten to it by Zero.

 

[Imari]

Hey look, PD do have that sort of humility. I was wrong. Great. That's a start.

Now, on to phase 2: doing something about it.

 

[poe64]

Hey look, PD do have that sort of humility. I was wrong. Great. That's a start.

Now, on to phase 2: doing something about it.

PD see Project Cars is about to take over as King of the car sims when it appears for PS4 later this year.

Just the options to set up races as you like will make GT6 look a bit pointless.

 

[Beat the Beat]

Well that was quite the porky, wasn't it.

I've always given him the benefit of the doubt on that one, thinking he was talking about the engine sounds in the E3 trailer, which were definitely just in there as sound effects.