GT6 Sales Discussion

I disagree, but for a couple of fundamental reasons.

The problem with Gran Turismo is not it's design at it's core (keep in mind that almost every racing game follows the same GT1 root of starting with X credits to purchase X car and evolve in an RPG style progression, examples like Grid 2, Forza games, Simraceway, Test Drive, NFS from ... possibly Porsche and so on). Having that particular design model is not broken as per se, what is broken is the way PD corner themselves up in how to update it, best example of this was the xp system in GT5, which was shamefully copypasted from FM games and serve no purpose either for the game design, the progression system and the game economy.

In FM games the XP system worked because it was the experience barrier between faster and faster cars, forcing the player to grind more points in order to have enough driving experience and open up further sections of the game. In GT games there is the the license system which simulates such grind, but makes it faster by turning the game in trials to teach the player in how to handle the driving characteristics of the cars that will be used in further sections of the game, is a brilliant design, is smart and intuitive because it effectively level up the players in the shortest way possible.

Now, the big problem with GT games like 5 and 6 by far is simply it's structure, because of the online play being completely new to the series they had no idea in how to implement it, it was awfully implemented in GT5: P, it was more competently put together in GT5 and ultimately basic in GT6. Having an online component in the game compromises the single player experience since all the seasonal events served to complement the career mode, but they are shovel in after the game the career mode is finished and the game just is not affected by it (i.e. the Sebastian Vettel Challenge).

An Autum ring race is necessary to introduce the most basic principles of cornering to new players, a Sunday Cup is necessary to showcase the differences between corners, tracks and elevation changes. What online communities often forget is that GT6 is an entry level driving simulator, not a hardcore (mind you) simulator, people who might be shifting from games like NFS, burnout on in my case NFS III needed to see such example to understand the game, so that's not the problem.

The problem is having all these assets, all these systems and not having anything useful for them. The Lunar Rover missions were a prime example of how disoriented the design of the game is. GT6 did great by introducing the mission races, the coffee breaks and the license test into the system, that is the right way to do it, what is broken is the career races themselves.

Rainmasters race and midnight races should exist, what it shouldn't exist is not randomized races later in the game, I agree that after certain points in the game there should be randomized functions to make the most of the game systems, PD though that by doing it into the Endurance races it might work but it doesn't make the races better, it just pad them and since the endurance system was technical broken it make the latter section of the game a huge mess.


Career modes in GT5 and GT6 games are broken, but not because their system don't work but because their assets are not used accordingly. The have 3 main regions for car manufactures, they should do separate events or regional series which are an aside from the career mode, but design a Cr. system (or use the current system) in which such races are nearly mandatory, say a BMW special series to gain x amount of credit to buy a car to compete in X race to beat the best car in that race (GT4 did this almost flawlessly), some seasonal events should be put into the career mode to complement it rather than making them an online event only (for example a few seasonal having the prototype FT1 or the M4, it should be an event updated into the career mode, having one make race of FT-1s and the time trial to earn the car).

I agree that they should hire a game designer to work out these systems rather than having however is in PD to work it out, the core system is not broken but it's implementation is.


Imagine this, a GT game in which there are tunner events by having x list of cars to meet x list of requirements, have a wagon race line in GT2 but this time featuring cars like the RS6 and so on, have time trail series in Chamonix normal and snow, and a different car for each time the race is driven, but alter it's conditions, and then have a complete randomized one. The grinding is not severe as the game uses it's own system to make the game more varied, extend the use of FF, FR, MR and so on. If races of GT3 and GT2 cars are introduced, there should be to a point in which the randomized weather kicks in and the minimum amount of laps is 20 or 25, making the game even more varied.

As I see it, is not a failure in design but a failure on implementation, and that's where GT6 is really broken, a solid core concept with a broken implementation.


I don't like GT games to loose their identity, because everyone uses an XP system for example doesn't mean that it should be a standard, hence why I was so pleased in how the stupid XP system was ditched from GT6 a-spec, it might work for b spec but it has no business existing into the a-spec realm, games should persevere some identity and keep themselves away from becoming generic.


Finally, developers can be assholes, they can be full of themselves but the whole point for them is to come up with a competent design, I don't get the hate for Kaz at this point, yes he produces the game but he solely doesn't make the game. Humility is inconsequential to mechanical design, mechanical design solely depends on the creativity of a person, not it's attitude (See Peter Molyneux and the fable games, which were never good from the first one and was so blinded by it's own delusional conception of the game that ended up making the games even more stupid, his only job was to design, produce and develop the game and he didn't, he just PR a delusional construction of a game rather than actually doing it). If they fail to acknowledge the flaws in the game is their problem but I don't see why they should be apologetic about it.

And to it's defence (yeah, burn me you silly people) he is just a guy that often do trackdays, talk about cars, talk about racing and do racing (endurance racing) apart from producing a game, as far as we know the second in charge might be overlooking the whole planing and production process while KY is either at Germany, or England, or Spain or Brazil doing racing or whatever, not related to any of the GT games, other than announcements (because he is the CEO of PD) I don't see him doing much in the sense of game design or game planing, given whatever dates set by Sony. Having him doing all that and also the other sidetrack thing he does with his life ended up making him care less about GT games by distance himself from it, leaving other people in charge of planing and production leaving us with ... this. KY is guilty though of not hiring more staff that controls the whole planing and production of the game, it needs an associate producer who can get in charge of stuff properly, it needs a game design advisor who can tell the game planer what will and will not work, they need that kind of workfoce, not what everyone around here says that "hur PD should hire more people hur hur", that's not the solution, a strong sense of planing is required which is what PD needs to produce the game properly, not by hiring more people but by having more people to help out with the design of the game. This worked perfectly for Forza Horizon, Playground games and former people from Codemasters, not because they need a whole studio to complement with the design but because they had a couple of planners that saw the FM system, saw how the games worked and had experience on the matter and design the game work on it's own.



(My apologizes, this was atrociously worded apart from being a wall of text)
I didn't read the whole post word for word but the gist of it to me was, "the career needs some tweaks here, take advantage of assets in the game etc. and it'll be fine". I think that's the exact mindset PD has to avoid actually, the mindset that a single type of career mode is workable for millions upon millions of gamers, a great many of who have been through this all before. There is no perfect career mode that is going to work for everyone, what we need are options, and options within options. Something like:

1. GT Classic Career Mode - Copy and paste the best of GT1-6 and..done.
2. Discipline Specific Career Modes - Open Wheel, Saloon, GT500, LMP etc.
3. Online Career Mode - Carve out a career online.
4. Sandbox Mode - All the cars on Day 1, do as you please.

Within 1, 2 and 3, options, options, options. In 2 you could set it up that you start out in an open wheel career in karts. You buy your first kart, preferably something used and a less powerful 4 stroke beginners type kart, and you enter some club races. You determine the size of the field, level of difficulty and a small selection of tracks to race on. Once you hit certain milestones like race winnings, podiums or whatever, a "Sponsor" comes along and offers to give you a kart to race at a higher level. Perhaps the kart is only lent to you for racing and maintained by the sponsor and you split the winnings with them. You could also have the option to buy our own kart and go racing. Again, a selection of events and series to enter, tracks, difficulty etc. Special events become available, longer races with higher payouts. "Grand Prix" karting events if you will.

And on, and on, and on all the way up to open wheel racing. At all levels options, options, options. This I believe is the future for racing games. With the power of new consoles and PC increasing dramatically, simply having cars and races isn't going to be enough for everyone. Sure some people will be happy with the Classic GT Career Mode, but I think a great many of us are tired of it after 6 version of it and want something more immersive and we want options. Different ways to play the game, variety, something to hold our attention. Real time events like my sponsor coming to me while I'm running my kart season and saying, "Hey there's a Kart TT going on exclusively for you lads doing the Open Wheel Career, how about we enter it and see how we do". Payouts geared to your finish level. The higher you finish the more you win, perhaps money, or perhaps other things like trophies, liveries etc. Maybe each month there's a new TT exclusively just for the Open Wheel guys to enter.

I could go on, but you get the point. Options, options and....options:cheers:
 
It all depends if it's all a bigger plan and they expected lower sales but decided for that move anyway. Very little to none research was needed to understand where the series is at the moment - a major disappointment on several fields.

The sound of GT became famous with GT5. Other issues like standard cars, dull career etc - all saw almost zero improvement.

The logical conclusion from an analyst or even a regular person with common sense would be that GT6 will sell MUCH less than GT5.

If indeed GT6 on PS4 is THE GT6 how it should be and PS3 version is just scaled down port with all the issues ports have then it all makes sense - GT6 on PS3 is just extra money for minimal effort or if not exactly minimal it still make sense to release a version on PS3.

I can't believe they expected GT5 figures.

Now think about polished GT6 on PS4 - it'll be a next gen GT game for 2 or 3 years and large part of new PS4 owners will get a copy. Very good initial sales and very long legs. Obviously the sales will depend on the quality of the game.
 
Now think about polished GT6 on PS4 - it'll be a next gen GT game for 2 or 3 years and large part of new PS4 owners will get a copy. Very good initial sales and very long legs. Obviously the sales will depend on the quality of the game.

How about a polished GT6 on PS3, you know, the one they advertised and we paid for? If I could spend around 18 months playing 6 on 3 I might consider investing in a new system. As it is now a new system is $500, it won't support my wheel so there is another $250, they expect me to spend $750 and "hope" GT7 is not the disaster that 6 is? I got news for them...that ain't gonna happen!
 
How about a polished GT6 on PS3, you know, the one they advertised and we paid for? If I could spend around 18 months playing 6 on 3 I might consider investing in a new system. As it is now a new system is $500, it won't support my wheel so there is another $250, they expect me to spend $750 and "hope" GT7 is not the disaster that 6 is? I got news for them...that ain't gonna happen!
They are still working on GT6 PS3 so hopefully updates coming soon will bring features in they said they will implement. At launch PS4 was $399 so don't how it can be now $500 where you are. You should be able to get it at a lower price than that, probably about $380 new or $300 used now. Depending on wheel, might have good chance of it working by the time GT7 is out and also price of console might be lower then.
 
A recent google search still shows the lowest price as 399, others at 499 and even one at 550 here in the states. Yes, they are still working on it 6 months after release and we have hardly any of the features advertised. Like, I said, if I could play GT6 for 12-18 months and the price of the PS4 comes down (and if) my wheel gets supported I might consider GT7. For now, I finished GT6 over 4 months ago, the PS4 hasn't come down at all and my wheel is not supported.
 
A recent google search still shows the lowest price as 399, others at 499 and even one at 550 here in the states. Yes, they are still working on it 6 months after release and we have hardly any of the features advertised. Like, I said, if I could play GT6 for 12-18 months and the price of the PS4 comes down (and if) my wheel gets supported I might consider GT7. For now, I finished GT6 over 4 months ago, the PS4 hasn't come down at all and my wheel is not supported.
$399.99 is the highest price retailers would have sold new since launch. Frys is selling PS4 at $380 at the moment by itself. Which wheel do you have?
 
$399.99 is the highest price retailers would have sold new since launch. Frys is selling PS4 at $380 at the moment by itself. Which wheel do you have?

OK, the cheapest I found my wheel online was $220, so add that to the $380 for the system and you get $600. Do you or Sony/PD actually think I should spend $600 on a game that is not out yet and hope it is not the mess that the last two installments of the game were...seriously? Are you a Sony or PD rep or something? Maybe $600 is pocket change for you, but I have better things to do with it :)
 
OK, the cheapest I found my wheel online was $220, so add that to the $380 for the system and you get $600. Do you or Sony/PD actually think I should spend $600 on a game that is not out yet and hope it is not the mess that the last two installments of the game were...seriously? Are you a Sony or PD rep or something? Maybe $600 is pocket change for you, but I have better things to do with it :)
If you already got a wheel then you won't need to buy same one again and hopefully it will be compatible ;). I'm just saying it should cost less than you think it would do, I did not say anything pro GT7 or PS4 so I don't see why you think I'm a PD or Sony rep.
 
I guess what I am really trying to say here is that I don't think I should have to spend a dime more to enjoy the game I already paid for. Since there are no games I am interested in on the 4 it would be silly for to spend near top dollar for it now, not to mention the current wheel situation. Why I mentioned you being a rep, you say you are not pushing Gt7 or PS4, but you continue to counter my arguments for not wanting to purchase now. I simply stated my views on the situation currently, they are not right or wrong, just my views. Just as your views are not right or wrong either, just your views :)
 
I guess what I am really trying to say here is that I don't think I should have to spend a dime more to enjoy the game I already paid for. Since there are no games I am interested in on the 4 it would be silly for to spend near top dollar for it now, not to mention the current wheel situation. Why I mentioned you being a rep, you say you are not pushing Gt7 or PS4, but you continue to counter my arguments for not wanting to purchase now. I simply stated my views on the situation currently, they are not right or wrong, just my views. Just as your views are not right or wrong either, just your views :)
I haven't said any different and it is promising with number of free content coming very soon and hopefully feature updates for GT6 in not so distant future. Improving GT6 was my first point. I then said what was RRP of PS4 console and that there is chance it may support your wheel and price of console might be lower by time GT7 comes out. Just saying it may not be as expensive as you imagined it to be and if you come to buy it, it may be cheaper then. Don't see where I'm pushing you into buying a PS4 now, I'm just stating information that is out there.
 
PD should have completed the physics of GT6 and just given us the 10 core manufacturers from Gran Turismo. We're getting free DLC. Users who didnt buy DLC in GT5, got "new"(to them) DLC included in GT6. DLC should already be in the PS store like Hot Wheels and Matxhbox cars. Ready to buy or free download.

We had a good game in Gran Turismo. Racing Modification, good tracks, endurance races. Today's Gran Turismo (which should be labelled by year from now on), would have been awesome with just the Aston One-77, 2014 Sting Ray, 2013 Viper GTS, Honda NSX Concept, Mazda Furai, Lancer Evo X, 2012 R35 Black Edition, STI Nurburgring Edition, FT-1 and TVR 350C as the latest editions to those 10 core manufacturers. All the other manufacturers should be unlocked if they are downloaded. Just use the content you want.

This is only how I feel about the game now. I enjoy all the manufacturers available. Sometimes its too much because I cant drive all the cars at one time. Sometimes I think we dont have enough because of cars I feel should be in the game. I'm playing the game today, using only the cars I mentioned above. Only sticking with those manufacturers and it works for me. If the physics and sounds were honed better. If all the locations from each previous games were included in each new edition, we would be better off. The franchise would be better off. Things like the Senna content are bonuses. GTACADEMY is a bonus. Concept cars are bonuses. Its what we get for buying the game.

I would rather have a completed game with only 10 manufacturers and get everything else later, than the way things are now.
 
That is exactly what I want them to do though. Not mess up, but be brave, push away from the same old same old and try something different. It can't go that wrong, and there is always scope to correct or improve it later on. The safe, boring approach for PD and GT7 would be the same old copy/paste career mode, same old events, same old license tests. I don't want that, I want them to be adventerous, try and do something new. Be revolutionary, like they were originally with the whole concept.

GT Mode might be a proven formula but it's extremely stale. I can't believe anyone still get's actually excited simply by the prospect of how the mode is set

...

I just want them to do something differently, even if it's only slight.

...

It's fine for GT to have an identity, and not to sound like a broken record, but a time comes for that identity to evolve and change into something new. If GT7 arrives and it's just "Buy a car for 20,000 credits, get your B license by completing 10 menial driving tests then head out to the Sunday Cup on Autumn Ring Mini" I'll be very disappointed.
After pondering this a couple of days, I think a lot of GT fans feel the same way I do.

GT5 was very different, to the point that the fanbase was vexed by a lot of the experiments. The frustrating XP system, the License Tests which were essentially meaningless except for coming to grips with the Comfort Hard tire model and winning some cars, the silly collectables, the need to nip a paint chip in order to paint a car every freaking time, the separate and aggravating B-Spec Mode, the extremely limited Used Car Dealership... there were quite a few things that bothered us. I think most of all, it was the small number of events, and the almost random way they were implemented, such as the American Championship which I recall was very short and didn't even use American locations for all the events. It's like they threw something together and then dropped it in a drawer, thinking that everyone would gravitate to the online stuff for most of their gaming. It didn't happen, and there were problems with it for those that did. And then along comes GT6, which apparently was going to rely on expansions to the game to keep it engaging, except those expansions are very slow to come.

So grand experiments are unwelcome, unless they involve grabbing entire hunks of the motorsports world, such as America's SCCA, GT Academy and league racing with mini-ish seasons and championships, fantasy or real world. Special Events and online, tinker away and see what works, but for single player offline, we want a structure that's racing focused. And big. If PD mushed together GT3 and 4, and then added big scoops of the good stuff from GT5 and 6 for GT7, that would be an outstanding foundation. And bring in as many of those legacy tracks as they can, cars too.

We also have expectations that come with every Gran Turismo. We expect to begin with roughly 20,000Cr to buy a car. We expect for there to be Sunday Cup beginner events. It's kind of a GT tradition. And we expect for there to be the usual limited progression to a certain point, and then for things to break open and allow options for progression in GT Mode. And those License Tests, another GT tradition. Maybe finesse them a little bit, maybe not make Gold super hard to get so that only 1% of gamers can get them, maybe a platinum trophy for that level of challenge.

Since I'm fixated on seeing GT Pro Mode in GT7 in some form or fashion, I'm fins with GT Mode being the usual sandbox style, but with a lot of events to do as in GT4. At a certain point, you could do whatever you wanted, credits allowing, and there was a lot to do. I played it for 14 months and still didn't do everything. Actually, more like 16 months, but I kept getting distracted by events I liked racing over and over in lieu of the enduros I didn't have time for, or the crazy hard Missions. A lot of gamers are like you and me, and online is kind of a diversion for them, or they just don't want to mess with it, so a big single player game makes a lot of sense. And really, coding races is the easy part, and they can use basic templates to create as many races as they think we could possibly want to enter.

One thing would mitigate the need for a big single player layout, and that's if they gave us a robust, full featured Event Maker. By full featured, I mean giving us the ability to define just about every aspect of a race from single race to series of races and their tracks, laps, time of day and weather settings per event, class/league of cars allowed and list of bot opponents. That alone would extend the replay value of GT7 almost endlessly. Add in Course Maker, Race Mod and a Livery Editor, and the only limit would be your imagination and enthusiasm to keep racing.

Online should be fully realized, and include that Event Maker, those club and league builder tools Kaz mentioned for GT6, as well as any PD/SONY hosted events, series and championships.

Many improvements for GT7 are a given, from sounds, physics, bot A.I., damage, impeccable graphics and lighting, larger fields - I'm hoping for 24 car races, with at least 16 online - better weather effects and time of day transitions on all tracks, a good B-Spec implementation, along with whatever more they can manage. And of course, I'm adamant that there be a GT Pro Mode of some form.

Much of this is established in the foundations of GT5 and 6, so the real work will be with the modeling team, making sure that we have enough locations to support a full field of cars - no duplicates or misfits - in various racing leagues for a season of some sort, and the coding team to produce those well endowed Course Maker, Race Mod and Livery Editor. If they delivered this, I think just about everyone would be ecstatic.
 
@Tenacious D
I don't see why most of what you list couldn't be implemented in GT6, at least as far as the race/event creator stuff. This would keep most of us plenty busy and happy until the next game. What is most confusing is that all the pieces are there, why can't PD simply put them together for us?
 
@Tenacious D
I don't see why most of what you list couldn't be implemented in GT6, at least as far as the race/event creator stuff. This would keep most of us plenty busy and happy until the next game. What is most confusing is that all the pieces are there, why can't PD simply put them together for us?
But, but, but Sony...but, but, but PS3...but, but, but the fans are so mean they aren't doing it out of spite...but, but, but PS4 but, but, but....
 
$399.99 is the highest price retailers would have sold new since launch. Frys is selling PS4 at $380 at the moment by itself. Which wheel do you have?
I'm really jealous of you guys, the ps4 is around $1700 here :(

Edit: There was a few months last time I checked the price, I just visited the site of a local store and it's around $1360 now. Just a few more years and I can buy it :dopey:
 
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I'm really jealous of you guys, the ps4 is around $1700 here :(
surprised-034.gif
 
After pondering this a couple of days, I think a lot of GT fans feel the same way I do.

GT5 was very different, to the point that the fanbase was vexed by a lot of the experiments. The frustrating XP system, the License Tests which were essentially meaningless except for coming to grips with the Comfort Hard tire model and winning some cars, the silly collectables, the need to nip a paint chip in order to paint a car every freaking time, the separate and aggravating B-Spec Mode, the extremely limited Used Car Dealership... there were quite a few things that bothered us. I think most of all, it was the small number of events, and the almost random way they were implemented, such as the American Championship which I recall was very short and didn't even use American locations for all the events. It's like they threw something together and then dropped it in a drawer, thinking that everyone would gravitate to the online stuff for most of their gaming. It didn't happen, and there were problems with it for those that did. And then along comes GT6, which apparently was going to rely on expansions to the game to keep it engaging, except those expansions are very slow to come.

Whilst I agree it wasn't very well implemented I disagree it was very different. There were a few changes that you mention but for the most part it was the same stuff, just slightly differently implemented. License tests were the same, they just weren't required for progress.

So grand experiments are unwelcome, unless they involve grabbing entire hunks of the motorsports world, such as America's SCCA, GT Academy and league racing with mini-ish seasons and championships, fantasy or real world. Special Events and online, tinker away and see what works, but for single player offline, we want a structure that's racing focused. And big. If PD mushed together GT3 and 4, and then added big scoops of the good stuff from GT5 and 6 for GT7, that would be an outstanding foundation. And bring in as many of those legacy tracks as they can, cars too.

I disagree, I want them to experiment, but they of course do need to put more thought into it than they did with some ideas in GT5 and GT6.

We also have expectations that come with every Gran Turismo. We expect to begin with roughly 20,000Cr to buy a car. We expect for there to be Sunday Cup beginner events. It's kind of a GT tradition. And we expect for there to be the usual limited progression to a certain point, and then for things to break open and allow options for progression in GT Mode. And those License Tests, another GT tradition. Maybe finesse them a little bit, maybe not make Gold super hard to get so that only 1% of gamers can get them, maybe a platinum trophy for that level of challenge.

This is what I don't get. Why does the game have to be the same every time? Why do we need 'tradition' in a gaming series? I don't understand where anyone gets excitement and enjoyment doing the exact same thing in each game just for the sake of tradition. I don't want the game to completely change it's identity but there is no need for everything to be the exact same. Why can't we get 100,000, be told to buy three cars and then have the first events tailored to those cars? That is just a random example but I just can't fathom why you want to do the same thing in each game.

Again with license tests, why do they need to be the same? You've already done then 6 times over, why would you enjoy doing the exact same style tests again and again and again? I don't get it. Why not give them a complete overhaul, do something vastly? Wouldn't that be more interesting rather than "Oh look, 0-400, 0-1000 braking, FR corner test, FF corner test, slalom test, different types of corners test. It's extremely stale.

Do you have this is any other game? Do you buy for example each new Tomb Raider game and expect to explore the same tomb/area as you did in the first game? Do you buy the Batman Arkham games and want to follow the same story and kill the same bosses each time? When Uncharted 2 & 3 came out did you want to trawl through the Amazon, look for the same hidden city? No, because we want something new, fresh, and interesting in sequels. I don't know why GT is any different, just because it's a racing game.
 
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Wall of text....
I think the solution is rather simple. Copy and paste Classic GT Career Mode with some cosmetic tweaks here and there into GT7 to satisfy the TenD's of the world(all three of them:lol:) and then set about including a real career mode for offline, online and a sandbox version for those that just want to drive, tune and race online or off without restriction. If they could make all modes optionally independent, meaning I could opt for Sandbox at the get go, then later go into Classic Mode and start with a $20K bank account and no cars, that would be perfect.

I'm guessing 90%+ of players will take advantage of Sandbox immediately, then wander into the other modes as they see fit, with a true Offline Career Mode being by far the most popular. Put side by side in the game with Classic Mode and it'll make Classic Mode look as outdated as the original Mario Kart by comparison.
 
For sure Arcade mode should be completely opened up. EVERY car available to drive/race (not own) from the start, every track AND an event generator WITH credit payout. Change the name as well, Arcade has bad connotations.

Throw a completely new career mode on top of that and as long as they sort the AI out you've got a great, fresh game already.
 
I blame them everytime I watch ps4 game trailers :lol:

Its not all governemnts fault.
If you pay attention to the game prices, you will notice that GT6 at launch were 150 $ brazilian money with tax (something like 65 dollars), a price close to non-high-priced countries (60 $ dollars a new game, 65 with tax), while GTA V, that was released about 3 months before GT, put 200 $ brazilian money (something like 90 $). Most of newest PS3 games are 90 dollars. But if GT6 could get 65, why the others not? The only reason I see is because I think they just want to get some extra money, its not a developed country so who cares? It looks like only PD thinks different, thats one of the reasons Im so patient with them and their mistakes.
 
This is what I don't get. Why does the game have to be the same every time?.......we want something new, fresh, and interesting in sequels. I don't know why GT is any different, just because it's a racing game.

Well said. Summed it up pretty nicely for me.
 
After pondering this a couple of days, I think a lot of GT fans feel the same way I do.

Of course you would; it wouldn't serve your argument if you didn't. I doubt it took that long to come to that conclusion, either ;)

So grand experiments are unwelcome

Grand experiments aren't though; simply poorly thought-out ones. Like the XP system in GT5; an XP system on its own isn't necessarily bad, but tying it to an extremely linear progression system for the offline career (which was that way because of how small it was, too) was a problem, as was tying levels to car availability - which was compounded by the UCD's terrible setup, meaning even if you had the money to buy the FGT when it happened to pop up, unless you were at the level to do the championship, you couldn't. It's how all these systems interacted so poorly that was the big problem in GT5, I think you'd agree.

Special Events and online, tinker away and see what works, but for single player offline, we want a structure that's racing focused. And big.

Unfortunately, there's very little they can do to make the offline career racing focused without finally getting some decent AI programming. Until then, it'll still be a hot lap setup.

If PD mushed together GT3 and 4, and then added big scoops of the good stuff from GT5 and 6 for GT7, that would be an outstanding foundation.

That's, uh, exceedingly vague :P

We also have expectations that come with every Gran Turismo.

And? So many of my GT expectations have been ignored this generation anyways, what's wrong with dropping what's in the following quote?

We expect to begin with roughly 20,000Cr to buy a car. We expect for there to be Sunday Cup beginner events. It's kind of a GT tradition.

So are delays - GT6 broke that tradition. Not all traditions are good, and a series that is unwilling to change is the very definition of stagnant.

@Samus gave a good example already; 100,000 to buy 3 cars, and have your first few events tailored to them. I've got a quick one: give us a dozen or two starter cars to pick from, all within our budget, and toss us into a quick series amongst them right from the get go, and a one-make after. Or swap those around. Heck, maybe don't even give us a budget; the start of the game could tie into license progression, and drop you into the seat of a good starter car (Miata, let's say) and have you run a lap. Keep goal times hidden from the player; have various set parameters to judge how the player accomplishes the lap (with traffic), and award a car based on their abilities. Faster folks would get a more basic starter car, while beginners would get a car that's closer to the top of the heap of the starter garage. Call it a "manufacturer" sponsor, toss the player into some amateur-level races, and only then do they start building up credits.

Have small tests that pop up at certain times for the player to achieve some sort of goal similar to coffee breaks or licenses, but toss in parts/manufacturer discounts instead. I dunno, I'm just spit-balling :P

And we expect for there to be the usual limited progression to a certain point, and then for things to break open and allow options for progression in GT Mode. And those License Tests, another GT tradition. Maybe finesse them a little bit, maybe not make Gold super hard to get so that only 1% of gamers can get them, maybe a platinum trophy for that level of challenge.

I love license tests, I really do. I try to do them as soon as possible; I did them right away in GT5 to minimize the damage of the stupid XP progression system. But expect even more complaining if they eased up on the already-easy Gold times of GT6, or made them harder and an exclusive Platinum. What could work would be something similar to LittleBigPlanet; have bronze/silver trophies for getting to a certain point on... wait for it... License leaderboards. Simply have a passing time for all licenses, but have all players' times for all the license tests thrown up on global leaderboards. Did you break the top 50%? Here's a trophy. Top 25%? Another. You get it. It's both inclusionary and increases competitiveness. Think Rivals mode.

Since I'm fixated on seeing GT Pro Mode in GT7 in some form or fashion, I'm fins with GT Mode being the usual sandbox style, but with a lot of events to do as in GT4. At a certain point, you could do whatever you wanted, credits allowing, and there was a lot to do. I played it for 14 months and still didn't do everything. Actually, more like 16 months, but I kept getting distracted by events I liked racing over and over in lieu of the enduros I didn't have time for, or the crazy hard Missions. A lot of gamers are like you and me, and online is kind of a diversion for them, or they just don't want to mess with it, so a big single player game makes a lot of sense. And really, coding races is the easy part, and they can use basic templates to create as many races as they think we could possibly want to enter.

Agreed completely; which is why I imagine so many are upset with the small careers of the PS3 generation. Like you said, coding races is peanuts compared to other parts of the game.

One thing would mitigate the need for a big single player layout, and that's if they gave us a robust, full featured Event Maker. By full featured, I mean giving us the ability to define just about every aspect of a race from single race to series of races and their tracks, laps, time of day and weather settings per event, class/league of cars allowed and list of bot opponents. That alone would extend the replay value of GT7 almost endlessly. Add in Course Maker, Race Mod and a Livery Editor, and the only limit would be your imagination and enthusiasm to keep racing.

I still think a PD-designed single player mode is needed to complement an Event Maker; there's not much sense of accomplishment if the player is always winning races they themselves have designed ;). I fully agree about it extending the replay value of GT7, however, especially if those other features were added. For artistic folks, a livery editor means literally endless possibilities. And it touches on that oft-mentioned "feeling of ownership" people talk about with GT, which I've always found odd considering how little we can really interact with our vehicles.

Online should be fully realized, and include that Event Maker, those club and league builder tools Kaz mentioned for GT6, as well as any PD/SONY hosted events, series and championships.

It should be that way now, nevermind GT7.

Many improvements for GT7 are a given, from sounds, physics, bot A.I., damage, impeccable graphics and lighting, larger fields - I'm hoping for 24 car races, with at least 16 online - better weather effects and time of day transitions on all tracks, a good B-Spec implementation, along with whatever more they can manage. And of course, I'm adamant that there be a GT Pro Mode of some form.

Likely, yes. Given, no. Not all those things, anyways.

Much of this is established in the foundations of GT5 and 6, so the real work will be with the modeling team, making sure that we have enough locations to support a full field of cars - no duplicates or misfits - in various racing leagues for a season of some sort, and the coding team to produce those well endowed Course Maker, Race Mod and Livery Editor. If they delivered this, I think just about everyone would be ecstatic.

Yep. Though I'll add an asterisk: * - In a relatively timely matter. If a full, non-Prologue GT game doesn't happen until halfway through the new Sony system's lifespan again, I don't think players will wait around.
 
Regarding license tests I just think they're missing a huge opportunity with the GT Academy there. At the moment GT Academy as a concept is used in game only as a Time Trial to find the best drivers, who then progress into real world tests and trials, away from the game. The best people continue to progress in various levels of motorsport until the best ones reach the very top, Le Mans/F3 etc.

Why not center the license progression around GT Academy. So instead of doing 10 boring license tests have the player just follow the path of GT Academy to gain your initial racing stripes. You start out with a few Time Trials for the game to assess your skills and then have the game teach you where you're going wrong, how to improve your basic techniques, how to overtake, racing rules etc. Teach them important skills for racing, not how to go around a hairpin in an FF car followed by an FR car in under 15.6 seconds. Do it all together, whilst lapping circuits, and importantly all without time goals. Once you've been taught the basics as a whole you'll have your basic racing license. Then to progress further you have to show you're a competent driver throughout your career and race for X amount of laps/races to earn further licenses. I'm not 100% sure how it works in real life at lower levels, but try to follow it as much as reasonably possible.

Later in the career to appease those who like the timed license test attacks have some follow up GT Academy events. Beat the times of the real guys, but don't tie a racing license to it because it's not realistic.

To get to the ultimate later classes, like LMP, open wheel classes, DTM etc simply give them their licenses through experience (racing, not RPG style XP) as in real life.

For example the real FIA Super License requirements are not

- Complete 5/10 super lap time trials in various cars at various tracks, beating a set time.

They are as follows:

To qualify for an FIA Super Licence the requesting driver must already be the holder of a Grade A competition licence, and additionally meet the requirements of the 2013 FIA International Sporting Code, Appendix L.[1][2] These requirements state that the driver must be either the reigning champion in a lower category of motor sport, for example Formula 3 (British, Italian or Japanese championship, or Euro Series), Formula 2, or GP2 Series (formerly known as Formula 3000), or must have consistently finished well in these categories. For example, a driver finishing in the first three positions five times within the last two years in GP2 will be eligible for a Super Licence.

Additionally, drivers who have competed in the IndyCar Series are eligible for a Super Licence if they finished within the first four places of the driver's championship. This allows drivers from the United States domestic series to move into Formula One without first taking part in other FIA sanctioned events. Under exceptional circumstances Appendix L also allows the FIA to award a Super Licence to a driver who does not meet the normal criteria if a vote reveals unanimous agreement by the members, and provided that the driver has completed 300 kilometers of testing at racing speeds in a current car.

Obviously those are not all directly translatable to a video game but that's where a game designer comes in, which I'm not. Work around it, make it more 'gamey'.

That's just a rough idea with I'm sure many flaws but you can see where I'm going with it.
 
You had me at this:

Regarding license tests I just think they're missing a huge opportunity with the GT Academy there.

It's what I thought we were getting from the GT6 ads on tv, showing the GTAcademy GTR's lined up at Silverstone.
 
@Tenacious D
I don't see why most of what you list couldn't be implemented in GT6, at least as far as the race/event creator stuff. This would keep most of us plenty busy and happy until the next game. What is most confusing is that all the pieces are there, why can't PD simply put them together for us?
Much of it could, how much, I'm not sure. The PS3 has had some issues in both GT5 and 6 with online elements not working right. And with a lot of the headroom for the Cell architecture already eaten up by the two GT engines, some things will either be a tight fit and might cause unforeseen problems, or just not be possible, like the Movie Maker. A proper damage build might fall in there. The online bugs puzzle me, as they don't seem to happen with online shooters like Battlefield or Killzone. Maybe the finicky physics are a problem there, but who knows. More cars on track can't happen, night lighting improvements can't happen, humanlike A.I. might be undoable, the same for much better sounds, so I'm not sure how much of my dream list could be. Event Maker should be, Course Maker II should be, hopefully, Race Mod and some sort of Livery Editor should be, but I'm guessing.

@Samus, @SlipZtrEm,

That was a good "discussion." A few points.

I don't understand where anyone gets excitement and enjoyment doing the exact same thing in each game just for the sake of tradition. I don't want the game to completely change it's identity but there is no need for everything to be the exact same.
I think you got a little carried away with your argument there. No one is going to mistake GT5 for GT6, unless they've never played through either. Now one thing about how the next GT is going to start is that PD has mixed in a little Toca in the way GT6 began. I suspect this sort of thing to continue in GT7, but honestly, I believe it's going to be Sunday Cup all over again. In GT6, it was the most fun I'd had since doing the beginner races in GT2 and 4. I was amazed at how much I enjoyed throwing that Leaf around those tracks! And I stuck with it as long as I could, until it just couldn't be made competitive anymore.

You mentioned starting with more credits, and this was something of an option in GT4, which you could use as a one time credit boost if you had a GT3 gamesave. Instead of the usual 20K Cr, you started with 120,000 Cr. I used it because I knew used cars would be returning, and I knew I'd want a bunch more than I could afford. And I was right. I wouldn't be adverse to something like that in GT7, my "choose a starting region" thing or whatever PD came up with.

While this is a side matter, I've been pleasantly surprised by a number of things about GT6. I know the sound addicts groan when they read stuff like this, but I was so impressed with the car sounds that I left the car volume up in replays this game. I don't get oil changes first thing like I have with all the other Gran Turismo games, I only get an oil change when the engine needs it. There are quite a few things which have sorely impressed me with GT6.

You mentioned something about your License Test idea before, and it is meritorious, but this is another one of those things that Kaz is gonna do what he do, so I have a feeling that License Tests specifically won't be going through any transmogrifications. But I do anticipate something of GT Academy making an appearance in GT7.

I still think a PD-designed single player mode is needed to complement an Event Maker; there's not much sense of accomplishment if the player is always winning races they themselves have designed ;)
Well, a couple of things about the Event Maker in GT2. One, it didn't pay out quite as much as equivalent races in GT Mode, and it was based on the difficulty, so easy races meant smaller purses. I expect similar strictures in a new Event Maker. But I'm in full agreement that I want to see a rather full featured PD designed GT Mode, like GT4 in scale if possible. Like Online Mode in GT5, I don't want PD skimping on single player, thinking that they could rely on online racing to complete the game for everyone, or because they gave us an Event Maker, they don't have to build all that many themselves.

And one more thing about "grand experiments." In racing games, you really can't do much with a formula based on the player's car beating every other car, when it's based on real world racing. Many of us have mentioned real world racing leagues being well represented in GT7. Some like the three of us have speculated on how some form of GT Academy could be used as a template for racing events. And beyond that, ideas are far and few between. All anyone has come up with are some sort of drift or touge events, and I'm not interested in that in the slightest. Online, the only things I recall are the club and league builder stuff, leaderboards, user and PD created special events, and that's about it. This is why I'm leery of any grandiose schemes that aren't involved with real world motorsports. Photo Mode? Well, there are racing photographers. Race Mod? Most race cars are modified versions of sports cars, and all have custom liveries. Course Maker? Almost all race courses have to be built around some suitable terrain. League builder? Racing bodies convene and create racing leagues. Auction House or Store Front? The automotive world is replete with shops, custom gear makers, places to buy and sell custom cars, used race cars, and so on. Etc, etc.

I'm all for PD brainstorming new ideas. I just don't want to see anything really un-motorsports related, like the Pokemonie collectibles, the XP system, and a paint shop with no freaking paint! Jeepers, that was messed up. :P

I could post a little more but my brain says quit and hit the sack.
 
There's a lot of "Could've, Should've, Would've" going on in this thread.

I think the bottom line is that GT7 has to start growing some fresh apples out of their tree real soon, or else people will be switching to oranges. I agree with Samus. I don't want the same **** in a different toilet. GT7 doesn't need an evolution. It needs a revolution.
 
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