GT7 and SimHub Tactile discussion
- Thread starter gti_sdn
- 516 comments
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- 21
- Gibraltar
Thanks all for your help regarding my problem with Sim Hub. I am very glad to report that I finally managed to make Sim Hub and my PS5 communicate with eachother.
What I had to do was reset my Network Adapters and update them to the latest version and Sim Hub suddenly worked.
Today I finally got my two BST-1s and set them up with my Fosi Audio BT20A (100w x 2 Amp) and Sim Hub.
After fiddling around for a while without audio just trying to dial each setting to my liking for now I gave it a go. Strapped my PSVR2 and tested it on a Time Trial.
OMG the moment I was on the track I was smiling like little kid at Christmas - the engine rumbling as I was idle in my car was soooo realistic. Everything felt so good and so real. I had been testing the Sim Hub settings without VR and without sound so the moment I put it all together it was breathtaking. I am loving this!
I am currently using these Sim Hub settings;
Road vibration
Gear shift
Engine vibration 40%
Wheel Slip
I might also add;
Simulated Road Texture.
This is soooo cool and it's now even more immersive!
What I had to do was reset my Network Adapters and update them to the latest version and Sim Hub suddenly worked.
Today I finally got my two BST-1s and set them up with my Fosi Audio BT20A (100w x 2 Amp) and Sim Hub.
After fiddling around for a while without audio just trying to dial each setting to my liking for now I gave it a go. Strapped my PSVR2 and tested it on a Time Trial.
OMG the moment I was on the track I was smiling like little kid at Christmas - the engine rumbling as I was idle in my car was soooo realistic. Everything felt so good and so real. I had been testing the Sim Hub settings without VR and without sound so the moment I put it all together it was breathtaking. I am loving this!
I am currently using these Sim Hub settings;
Road vibration
Gear shift
Engine vibration 40%
Wheel Slip
I might also add;
Simulated Road Texture.
This is soooo cool and it's now even more immersive!
- 21
- Gibraltar
Oh wow thanks, that's great news! Now that I know it's possible to crank the volume even higher, now the only issue is The Wife! Haha She's already complaining about the vibrations and it's only set to 50% on the the amp and software. My issue is I haven't got a fixed rig, it's a hvy duty Next Level Racing 2.0 stand and I've fitted it with castor wheels to move it out of the way after a session. It works great but now I have to soften these vibrations somehow. Thinking of placing the stand on a mat of some kind.
- 21
- Gibraltar
Hey all does anyone have the ideal Wheel Slip settings on Sim Hub for GT7? I am using a front and rear setup as I have a bass shaker on the back of my seat and another on the pedals. I love how the other effects work but thus one which is arguably the most important I can't dial it properly to be of any help at all. @Mr Latte maybe you know the best setting for Wheel Slip in a front and rear setup?
I'd really appreciate if someone could help me on this, thanks.
I'd really appreciate if someone could help me on this, thanks.
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,044
- N Ireland
Welcome to enjoying tactile....
I try to focus on making effects so that they work well with others that can also be active at similar times.
Weve had a few goes at playing around with some sensations for different effects. With GT7 it appears to rely mainly on G Forces and its own slip output is mainly active in scenarios of high levels of slip or the car in a spin. So, I have a recent batch of effects I made that seem to be a good deal better than standard effects which combine nice sensations.
Are you willing to help/test and give some feedback?
- 21
- Gibraltar
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,044
- N Ireland
Just a feeling, but PD may have restricted the telemetry output for slip sensations and lock-up, so that it cannot be used to offer a competitive advantage?
For instance on PC sims, we can easily have and apply individual F/R slip sensations so you can feel understeer/oversteer and feedback to enjoy burnouts and some use with wheellock/ABS.
Back to GT7, what I have already done is match some effects that work in similar manner to Logitech Tru Force.
If you want to stick a tactile exciter or small transducer to a wheel base, pedals or seat then this is possible as to how/what/where you place additional tactile and what effects we send to each channel/device. Simhub is rather awesome software but we can only work with the telemetry data that the game is sending.
I bought HF8 & use it with SimHub. It's great when combined with Logitech G Pro. It's so immersive that I needed to increase my FFB & Trueforce on the wheel (5.5nm => 8.5nm, 35% TF => 50%). It also works nicely when attached to the bottom of the Logitech Playseat Trophy. But don't make the mistake I made and attach it without wrapping it well in the Trophy because one of the belts broke. It didn't make a difference because it was unnecessary, but still ... The seat gets a little hot and is less comfortable than before, but the whole experience is worth it. The next things I want to try are wind simulation & rumble pedals (I have them ordered, and they should arrive in a couple of weeks).
- 3
- United States
Hi Mr Latte,
I could use your assistance with some settings and test/provide feedback as well. I have read a lot of your posts and built my setup based on them (you are very knowledgeable). At the moment, I am only playing GT7 in VR.
Currently I'm using 3 Dayton BST-1’s, and 5 Dayton EX32EP2-4 Exciters running off of 5 amps.
Using SimHub, I have the following settings;
- Under Seat: BST1 - Road Vibration (using your multi-level settings I found in one of your posts)
- Upper Back: BST1 - Acceleration & Gear Shift
- Mid Back: Exciters (Left/Right) - Speed with Curving
- Shoulders: Exciters (Left/Right) - Speed with Curving (different output channel, set to different range)
- Under Foot Plate: One Exciter - Deceleration
Game Audio connected to a 2.1 channel amp
- 4” Kicker speakers (Left/Right Channel)
- Lower Back:BST1 - Sub Channel
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,044
- N Ireland
I would be interested to get feedback from you on various effects with a range of frequencies on how your BST compares to a pair of EXC. Newer and improved effects have been shared in the private conversation group which now has over 30 people. Some others also have the same units you own and tbh if you enjoy doing some tests or comparisons that would be excellent and appreciated.
If you'd be willing or interested I would recommend adding 1 more pair of EXC for the lower back and maybe moving the pairs you have just up a little. This would give you an installation close to the 8-way configuration that I am seeking to build effects for.
Giving us triple stereo pairs and dual mono in the center.
For the newest effects that I have been working on these can be utilised in different ways.
1. As indvidual pairs for specific effects to the top/mid/bottom sets
2. Output a specific effect layer over 2/4/6 units
3. Have effects operate with transitions, moving either from top - bottom pairs or bottom - top pairs and with specific frequencies for each set if desired
Creativity with effects creation, is not a problem, its harder to get enough people willing and interested in helping with trying different options and possibilities to help determine how we best apply specific effects together and to determine what combinations people actually prefer.
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- 3
- United States
Thanks,
Yes I would like to be part of the group! Looks like i have a lot of reading to catch up on.
One quick question, i see the Behringer amp you recommended. Is the power button analog or digital?
I like to run my equipment from a remote controlled power supply (have the remote mounted on the side of my chair), which is why i have favored the amps with the analog on/off toggle switch. Will I be able to operate the same way with the Berhringer? Have power pressed in to ON, and let the remote powerstrip turn it on and off?
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,044
- N Ireland
I use a Penn Elcom PDU to switch on my gear. This works with both EPQ 304 and My other amps with manual power switches left in on position.
I'd expect your solution should also work.
Attachments
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Hello, greetings to all.
I have signed up for GTP because of this issue. Great that you share this interesting information. I apologize for my English, I use a translator.
I'd like to try and share information on using multiple audio exciters.
At the moment I have two Dayton EX32EP2-4 ready to install, and I am waiting to receive six more Dayton EX32EP2-4 and two Douk M4.
I would like to know what is the recommended position to install the 8 exciters on the seat, following Mr. Latte's recommendation. I would also be interested in trying the effects of Mr. Latte to be able to comment on them.
This is my seat for if you can tell me where to install the exciters, thanks and best regards.
I have signed up for GTP because of this issue. Great that you share this interesting information. I apologize for my English, I use a translator.
I'd like to try and share information on using multiple audio exciters.
At the moment I have two Dayton EX32EP2-4 ready to install, and I am waiting to receive six more Dayton EX32EP2-4 and two Douk M4.
I would like to know what is the recommended position to install the 8 exciters on the seat, following Mr. Latte's recommendation. I would also be interested in trying the effects of Mr. Latte to be able to comment on them.
This is my seat for if you can tell me where to install the exciters, thanks and best regards.
Attachments
- 1
- Dovercourt, Harwich, Essex
Hi all
This thread has been really interesting reading for someone pretty new to both sim racing (GT7 on PSVR2 has converted me!) and tactile feedback. I’m a bit limited due to my non-alu profile rig (GT Omega Titan) but have set it up with a pair of BST-1’s - one under the pedal tray and one on a piece of board I’ve mounted between the seat and the rig - and a Nobsound 01G-pro amp. Been tinkering and have had mixed but generally enjoyable and sometimes helpful results.
@Mr Latte I’d be interested to join the private group and try out your settings? Obviously wouldn’t get the full benefits due to the limitations of my setup but I’m pretty certain they’ll be more impressive than mine! Thank you.
This thread has been really interesting reading for someone pretty new to both sim racing (GT7 on PSVR2 has converted me!) and tactile feedback. I’m a bit limited due to my non-alu profile rig (GT Omega Titan) but have set it up with a pair of BST-1’s - one under the pedal tray and one on a piece of board I’ve mounted between the seat and the rig - and a Nobsound 01G-pro amp. Been tinkering and have had mixed but generally enjoyable and sometimes helpful results.
@Mr Latte I’d be interested to join the private group and try out your settings? Obviously wouldn’t get the full benefits due to the limitations of my setup but I’m pretty certain they’ll be more impressive than mine! Thank you.
Hey @c3rs197 I have a seat very similar to yours and have played around a little bit with the position of the exciters.
I only have 4 at the moment but have another 4 are on the way.
I’m my experience, see attached, red wasn’t great, green is good and orange is is where I’ll be placing the other 4 when they arrive.
What I’ve found is if you place one hand inside the seat and repeatedly knock on the back of the seat with your knuckles, you’ll be able to feel which spots resonate better than others.
My impression with the red location is that it’s too close to multiple corners which provides a lot of bracing and strength which depletes the impact of the exciters.
The green is still close to a corner but you want the stereo pairs as far apart as possible to be able to feel the stereo effects.
The set up pictured is based on Mr Lattes P1,P2,P3 and M1, M2 placements which gives you 3 stereo channels and 2 mono channels.
Have a play around and use the 3M dual lock to attach the exciters as that makes shifting them a little easier and also provides a better method of attachment that compensates for some curves in the seat too
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Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,044
- N Ireland
Some additional effects have been shared in the group chat.
We already have a few people that own the most commonly purchased hardware like BST / TT25 / Aura / BK Gamer models.
Based on feedback so far various effects shared seem to be working quite well and are confirmed as feeling more fun/enjoyable than other effects they have experienced or made themselves.
More testing/feedback is needed from owners of similar hardware to help determine what is a good arrangement of effects we can use successfully. One issue is how we combine together basic but enjoyable feeling sensations for engines/speed. I have different options/approaches on how to proceed with this.
As owners will be aware, there are limitations in how many effects we can generate at once, on the budget hardware, and this is especially the case with what lots of people own and who are using the traditional installation approaches with tactile.
Different Approach & Perspective
I've shared in spoilers here some of my own thoughts and findings with tactile over many years.
It's a very disputed and debated topic.
Yet quite simply, I stand by "what I recommend/share" based on the performance or immersion it seeks to bring and the feedback I get from people confirms for me that it often gives people more enjoyment from their sim racing. My own recommendations are different from the traditional approaches, based on my own creativity, effects developments, and experimenting with tactile.
Within the private chat, I was increasing the awareness of and working on my own approach, including tests with building more advanced effects for that too. I do see more and more interest in it, so maybe is best to consider having an individual chat group with clear instructions on how/what to do regards my own RACEBASS concept and extensive GT7 effects testing/development focused on that.
We can take tactile much further....
What nobody to date has done is come up with a solution for effects that operate on the most basic hardware but can then be expanded to multichannel/multibody zones and even further extended with additional pro-level tactile hardware. Also to bring a better way of incorporating "Game Audio" tactile with "Telemetry Generated" tactile. These are things I have worked on as a tactile hobbyist for over the last 3 years, yet very few so far have come to experience what it brings.
Others may offer a different approach with effects and thats fine too.
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Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,044
- N Ireland
Different seats can vary in what may be ideal placement.
The "Dual Lock" can make it much easier to apply/remove the exciters, so its possible to move positions.
In general, my advice is to achieve a good operational feel for your
Shoulders
Mid-Sides
Lower back
The central units used in a 8-way configuration are to help produce (mono) effects but to keep these specific layers/roles separated from the units in charge of (stereo) effects. An example would also be to place some/all the wanted sensations for an engine in the central channels as these effects are more constant in their operation. That helps maintain the felt sensations of other effects we can place to different body regions over the 3 pairs. Basically we have more options in how/where we determine effects are felt over the seat, its that simple.
What most are not aware of, is that the same frequencies even with the same hardware and volume, applied to each of these zones will not feel identical. How we perceive effects is also relevant to where and how we feel them within our bodies. Additionally, different hardware can perform better with specific frequencies. Those, that pursue a path for the best in tactile will discover how true this is regarding the application of large Buttkickers combined with TST models. As these can bring unique felt detail and energy in generated sensations we cannot get with other hardware. Yet having these and being able to control and apply them as individual effect layers with specific roles is another level to what can be done with tactile immersion.
During 2022, I discovered, having 3x pairs of "stereo" exciter units over the back of the seat is ideal because it lets us not just fill the whole seat with vibrations and maintain comfortable volumes.
It also enables me, to be more creative with effects development, and to apply what is called, Low/Center/High octave bands in frequencies within a controlled manner over the whole seat.
With this experimentation, I then sought to build new Simhub effects (late 2022/ early 2023) that can maintain a musical relationship to enable effects to apply 1/3 or 1/2 and Full Octaves. Having effects made in such a way means, we can achieve decent core performances on most units.
However, I can easily insert for any effects, additional layers with a specific desired role that is destined for a specific type of transducer or body region. An example would be a unit with a peak performance with specific lower or higher frequency bands. We can then utilise this additional hardware with its own specific effects roles to work in tandem with what the exciters already bring and (importantly) do so with maintaining the synergy and application of octaves.
While others in the PC and Simhub communities may have gone with different approaches in creating effects, what I do know is
this utilisation of musically matched frequencies to be used or generally (not always) maintained in effects creation is something that nobody at the forefront of the PC/Tactile community appeared to be doing since Simhub was released.
It is however now for me with 2023 effects, a key element towards building better effects or seeking to create combinations of effects that operate better together. This is also why I like to promote specific tried and tested hardware as with that, I know that people have a much better chance then of experiencing effects (that can have many hours of work/development put into them) as they were intended.
Working with people buying into the same hardware and installing it is key to getting their personal feedback towards how/what direction to continue to develop or improve effects. Tweaks can be made with the octaves/frequencies used and how/where we apply specific layers over the P1 P2 P3 etc exciters. Seat pads or other solutions on the market only offer very basic effects in comparison with what is being freely shared.
This approach being taken also lets users define their own output mixes by how they apply volumes to individual layers, so I am keen to see with shared effects also what settings groups of people find feel good and suit their own preferences.
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- 1
Hi All,
very interesting topic... thanks to all for that effort, tinkering and bringing this topic forward...
I started with two Sinuslive bassPUMP below my seat some years ago connected with some stereo amp to my AV. That was OK but now with PSVR2 and most of the time wearing the PS5 headset, i am missing the bassPUMP's.
Then i found some post of Mr. Latte somewhere and it pulled me in...
I now got a HP Slim PC to drive SimHUB and an 8 Channel AMP (Sure Electronics AA-KA32473).
For start i bought:
- 2x Sinuslive bassPUMP
Currently i'm playing with them on my desk not yet connected to a seat to get some impressions and learn about SimHUB...
Somewhere i found a video where two of those small Dayton's where connected to the brake and throttle paddle and i found that idea very appealing. Thoughts on that?
I just got the 4 Dayton's to start with and get some more when i got an idea which ones are better in my opinion.
Is there a limit to channels? might even get more amp's...
@Mr Latte I'd be interested to join the private group and discord i read about somewhere, to try out some settings, learn about your approach and hopefully bring something in myself...
very interesting topic... thanks to all for that effort, tinkering and bringing this topic forward...
I started with two Sinuslive bassPUMP below my seat some years ago connected with some stereo amp to my AV. That was OK but now with PSVR2 and most of the time wearing the PS5 headset, i am missing the bassPUMP's.
Then i found some post of Mr. Latte somewhere and it pulled me in...
I now got a HP Slim PC to drive SimHUB and an 8 Channel AMP (Sure Electronics AA-KA32473).
For start i bought:
- 2x Dayton Audio EX25FHE2-4
- 2x Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4
- 2x Sinuslive bassPUMP
Currently i'm playing with them on my desk not yet connected to a seat to get some impressions and learn about SimHUB...
Somewhere i found a video where two of those small Dayton's where connected to the brake and throttle paddle and i found that idea very appealing. Thoughts on that?
I just got the 4 Dayton's to start with and get some more when i got an idea which ones are better in my opinion.
Is there a limit to channels? might even get more amp's...
@Mr Latte I'd be interested to join the private group and discord i read about somewhere, to try out some settings, learn about your approach and hopefully bring something in myself...
- 1,303
- Canada
- the-1st-hawkeyez
interesting concept. I do know when mixing music, it’s better to boost/cut at octaves rather than one larger boost/cut. So say you have build up of bass at 200hz, you’d cut a bit there and a bit at either 100hz or 400hz or both.
So perhaps if you’re wanting say, road noise through the seat, whatever frequency that normally does best, add the octaves into the other shakers. Maybe you can run less ”volume” overall on all due to stacking but at different frequencies (octaves) and in return you’re leaving headroom for running more effects on each shaker?
From what I understood people have said don’t run everything at 40hz as it blurs effects. I’ll be messing around with the frequencies and finding what distance between frequencies can I feel and going from there. No sense running 35hz on something an 40hz on another if it pretty much feels the same.
In your opinion, if you could only have one effect throughout the entire seat, which effect would you choose?
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,044
- N Ireland
Hi, I seen some interesting options with Sure Electronic mini amps in the past and yeah the 8-channel KA32473 is an interesting product with the potential for multi-exciter installations. However, bringing more d.i.y or hobbyist aspects regards putting it together with a suitable power supply and everything regards configuring it. Might be too much for most people for what already is a d.i.y process and may put some off who just want to buy an off-the-shelf amp solution.Hi All,
very interesting topic... thanks to all for that effort, tinkering and bringing this topic forward...
I started with two Sinuslive bassPUMP below my seat some years ago connected with some stereo amp to my AV. That was OK but now with PSVR2 and most of the time wearing the PS5 headset, i am missing the bassPUMP's.
Then i found some post of Mr. Latte somewhere and it pulled me in...
I now got a HP Slim PC to drive SimHUB and an 8 Channel AMP (Sure Electronics AA-KA32473).
For start i bought:
and the already owned:
- 2x Dayton Audio EX25FHE2-4
- 2x Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4
- 2x Sinuslive bassPUMP
Currently i'm playing with them on my desk not yet connected to a seat to get some impressions and learn about SimHUB...
Somewhere i found a video where two of those small Dayton's where connected to the brake and throttle paddle and i found that idea very appealing. Thoughts on that?
I just got the 4 Dayton's to start with and get some more when i got an idea which ones are better in my opinion.
Is there a limit to channels? might even get more amp's...
@Mr Latte I'd be interested to join the private group and discord i read about somewhere, to try out some settings, learn about your approach and hopefully bring something in myself...
Keep me posted on how you get on with it though...
Simhub has no limit to the number of soundcards or channels.
Having multi-body zones covered can indeed include pedals but the torso is the largest and best area to focus on first for immersion and effects creation. Its up to the user to determine how important it is to them to have tactile for pedals or do they focus on making the tactile in the seat better?
GT7 is also quite limited in what it lets us achieve with wheel-slip or ABS effects compared to some other sim titles and you have a much smaller area of body contact with feet/heels. So what it adds may well be less to the "whole immersion experience" than say upgrading mult-exciters with a BK or TST combo.
That's not to say adding tactile to pedals is not a benefit, as it can indeed be.
So yes, exciters can be attached to pedals and they will let us do more with effects as well as perform better than small motors that already are a popular option.
I came away from using Discord earlier this year by my own decision as I wanted a complete break from the whole PC sim community.
gtplanet is where I first started experimenting with tactile and my interest in GT7 with VR combined with news of the added support with Simhub was an attractive opening to help bring a new level of tactile immersion to a whole new audience with this affordable d.i.y concept.
For the record, none of my newer effects work using this approach should be available on any Discord channel or available anywhere but here within the current discussion group. Any of my own original work regards this new approach with effects and GT7 should only be available here and users are requested not to share them in other places which I think is fair.
I would rather keep it as experimental w.i.p with those interested in pursuing it and then make an open public thread about it when we have a lot of the effects working well. The more we have then the better my chances are in getting good feedback on the effects is from the community.
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Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,044
- N Ireland
The idea is built on the basics with audio, if you look at a 31 band EQ it has specific frequencies as sliders for a reason.
Here is an example of some usable options.
My own findings with monitoring what Simhub was generating when we apply multi-layers or multiple effects at once on a channel has helped me with my own approach.
A good deal can be learned from investigating/researching how/what some of the features Simhub has, actually do from the operation of an effect and its generated output. When you apply (Base/High) values in Simhub those are the Center Frequency values for the generated frequency. This does not mean that only those frequencies get generated and what does get generated can depend on how Simhub generates the "type" of effect it is but also the bandwidth of the frequencies you are using.
Additionally how we pair or group different effects could be based on using different octave bands to reduce identical frequencies being repeated. Sometimes when we just use any random frequency we can create a scenario with felt knocking based on the sensation two or more frequencies are generating.
Another approach is to alter the frequencies we apply to specific effects that are operational at the same time. One option with this is to apply certain effects only to specific channels and other effects only to others. The truth is, we are not tied down to using only one or the same approach with the effects created. I look at different options we can apply and try to place the more important elements for an effect to use more prominent frequencies or have that effect layer output to a more prominent body location or indeed multiple locations.
I only have shared a very small portion of what I have worked on and I am not rushing forward as I will progress things more when we have more users using the exciter concept.
GT7 does appear to need some alteration with the settings and effects as I noticed with my previously created ACC effects.
I had to also rework things based on how GT7 has fewer effects available.
I don't necessarily have one favorite effect. Depends on my mood, sometimes I want a really nice engine, and other times I want more sensation from stereo effects on curbs but both can be very satisfying effects, and the two most requested.
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- 1,303
- Canada
- the-1st-hawkeyez
Yeah, I think for me once I get my rig built I’m definitely at least going to want some curbs on the seat left and right and gear shifts, maybe a tiny bit of engine noise. The rest I could take or leave as a lot of the info comes through the wheel anyway. I’d just like to get it so Ive got info not just in my hands and feet.
I’ve got the G Pro and my current rig it sends info right down to my pedals and almost into the seat. And my seat has a lot of cushion. The rig frame is metal, bolts to wood feet on my chair. So it’s fairly decoupled.
Ive got a seat out of a minivan I’m going to use. My only concern is how to get my tactile transducers mounted in the best place. I’d just buy a race seat but they’re expensive and probably not as comfortable.
We built our dad a race rig many many years ago and used a car seat and it’s still comfortable to sit in. I seem to go through office chairs quickly and they’re never all that comfortable to begin with so I think I still want a car seat. I’m going to have to look and it and find a way to get the shakers as close to me as possible.
If I can’t get good vibes happening, I’ve got an only blown sub, that amp is toast the speaker is fine, it’s a 12” I might have to look tiny making my own bass shaker from that to mount to the seat to get the big rumbles happening.
- 27
- United States
Advice needed for attaching DAEX32EP2-4 to my seat. Seat is basically foam over a steel frame. I want to put my mounting plates under the cover, so that my cover remains as intact as possible, with the exciters as the only thing showing from the outside (the seat cover will cover the mounting plates, not the exciters). Is it better to mount these to the steel frame on a steel plate or on a piece of wood? Want to do it right the first time.
Thanks for the help!
Thanks for the help!
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- 27
- United States
Went with wood.
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