GT7 has failed to be Gran Turismo

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It's that problem all game designers have to contend with.

Among players there are two contrasting opinions a lot of the time.

One is the group who want a huge campaign that takes time, dedication, perseverance, who enjoy the grind, and get very frustrated when things are too easy.
The other group want to jump on, play how they want, with minimal gate keeping, and get very frustrated when they can't.

Some people can't devote hours and hours progressing through the lower levels till they get to the "good stuff".

How, then, can a game developer create an experience that caters to both those groups, who sit at either end of the extreme?
If they try to find a middle ground that'll invariably lose one, or even both, of those two groups.

Go too far in one direction and you'll probably lose one group anyway.

So, what can they do?

I suppose then, in the end, they have to just make the game they want and hope people like it.

Right?
 
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It's all been said here but just to add another voice / long-winded rant since this can't be stressed enough:

  • no Gr.2 or Gr.1 races, barely any Gr.4 or Gr.3 content
  • no endurance races
  • 10 championships, 6 if you discount one-track events
  • exactly one championship with more than three races
  • licenses past National A serve no purpose in terms of progression
  • 300+ cars left to collect after all the races are done

Now, I thoroughly enjoyed the races and few championships that are included. Many of them were actually challenging. I somewhat enjoyed the idea behind the cafe but wasn't a fan of the linear progression either, I'd much prefer being able to make actual decisions instead of the game breadcrumbing me by dropping a specific car after each race.

Despite relatively minor gripes I was really enjoying the game, maybe naively expecting it to open up after unlocking all the tracks, so the abrupt ending credits and nothing after that felt like an Aventador missing a braking point on Tokyo Expressway. Not that I even drove a Lamborghini before the ending.

Funnily after getting used to the idea of the cafe representing your progress through the game, going from "welcome, we are open" to "we're now closed forever" effectively killed all enthusiasm I had for the game. There are a couple of low-paying single races left to do but I suddenly don't even feel like it. Sure, PD will likely expand the content but it's extremely disappointing to see them fully on board with this idea that it's somehow okay to release and sell a half-finished product and then maybe finish it a year down the line, which seems to be the norm in this industry now.

What's even more frustrating is that in terms of work hours the game actually seems about 99.8% complete, it really shouldn't be a big deal in the grand scheme to string a couple races together and have decent progression through the game, as they've done in practically every previous title. The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that the missing content is tied to new tracks that are still being worked on, but that doesn't excuse this. Basically, as tends to happen nowadays, someone wanted this game out the door despite it being unfinished.
 
It's that problem all game designers have to contend with.

Among players there are two contrasting opinions a lot of the time.

One is the group who want a huge campaign that takes time, dedication, perseverance, who enjoy the grind, and get very frustrated when things are too easy.
The other group want to jump on, play how they want, with minimal gate keeping, and get very frustrated when they can't.

Some people can't devote hours and hours progressing through the lower levels till they get to the "good stuff".

How, then, can a game developer create an experience that caters to both those groups, who sit at either end of the extreme?
If they try to find a middle ground that'll invariably lose one, or even both, of those two groups.

Go too far in one direction and you'll probably lose one group anyway.

So, what can they do?

I suppose then, in the end, they have to just make the game they want and hope people like it.

Right?
If that was the case then they wouldn’t price the cars so high, everything would be unlocked from the start and the races would pay a lot more. It’s just a badly designed game unfortunately, that seems very rushed when they seemingly had a lot of time and a good base to work from.

GT Sport has so much more single player content compared to this, even with less cars and tracks that it’s quite laughable to be honest. With those events and the tuning coming back (and I personally like the new physics), great sounds and graphics too, this would’ve been a fantastic game. Kaz wanted to be Kaz though. It’s such a shame.
 
One is the group who want a huge campaign that takes time, dedication, perseverance, who enjoy the grind, and get very frustrated when things are too easy.
The other group want to jump on, play how they want, with minimal gate keeping, and get very frustrated when they can
GT7 caters to neither. It provides a short campaign and then presents a huge time barrier to all the cars.
 
  1. Lack of freedom to do as you will.
    You have all the freedom you need in the end-game.

    The menu books are the tutorial, they took you through every type of car, tracks and weather - didn't you notice how each menu features a different type? i.e. Porsche teaches you RR, Ferrari teaches you MR, GT-R teaches you 4WD, Mustang teaches you muscle-car handling etc.

    Once you're done those, you're supposed to tackle the harder races, and you're supposed to balance the difficulty setting and your PP against your opponents to make the races a challenge. If you slap it on easy and OP your car, you'll get bored quick. If you're not going to make the game challenging, don't expect it to be exciting.
  2. The bugs and issues surrounding progression and challenges
    This one is just a matter of being patient and understanding. If you don't want to be patient and/or understanding, be prepared to be upset a lot in life.

  3. Nerfed credit income
    I don't quite see how this is shepherding people towards micro-transactions, unless people aren't willing to put in the effort for the reward.

    I remember playing GT1 when I was a kid, buying a starter car and grinding 5-6 races just to be able to afford an upgrade to make it competitive. By comparison, GT7s cash rewards are excessive, as most upgrades cost significantly less than a single race reward.

    Want money? Get the '65 mini, stick a high-RPM turbo on it, hard sport tires and 1-way LSD. Run the Goodwood Mini race once and you get around 50k with the clean race bonus. Do that 6 times and you can buy a GR4 car. Do it 8 times and you're in a GR3 car. 10 times and you're at the million credits mark.

    Unless you're not willing to put in the effort for the reward...
  4. The rest of the minor issues
    Unless you're referring to the bugged Rally physics, which have been fixed, the physics are some of the best in console racing games. Each car handles differently, FFs now actually understeer like they should, FRs get tail-happy when they should... I don't know what you're complaining about...
 
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The ultimate irony of GT7 is that, looking at it all in a vacuum, the way the Menus are structured, and specifically the way that they slowly ratchet up the stakes from the beginning to end, where you're going from two lappers on small circuits in city cars to more lite-enduro fair on the world's most notable circuits with Gr. 3 is really well done, and rivals Codemasters games in that regard.

The issue is everything else. The Menus would be better served as a secondary element that you picked away at through natural gameplay and racing, instead of being the effective campaign. And even that prop up above comes with the massive caveat that we know that there are more Menus in the pipe that PD just so happened to cut out and give back as 'free updates' that would make the game have an actual end point instead of ending where it does now.
 
Single player is too short, incomplete and repetitive, i fired up gt3 today and was overwhelmed by how many races was there and how it was neatly organized in each menu and not all over the place
The AI in earlier games was dumb, but fast, whereas in modern GT games it seems to be the other way around.
 
so lets see if we can list all the complaints

1:the game is too short,
2:it takes too long to earn enough credits to buy every car
3: not enough content
4:adding more content via updates is bad

all of your pointless complaints about GT7 have been duly noted
and will be promptly ignored,
everyone else can now go back to enjoying the first new Gran Turismo game in nearly a decade

that is all
It's easy to intentionally misunderstand everything. So here, let me make sure you can't.

1: The game is too short, as in it doesn't have enough content without being incredibly repetitive.
2: It takes too long to earn enough credits to buy every car, because race payouts are stingy and the only things we can do are either so slow it'll take a decade or so repetitive I'd rather do literally anything else.
3: There is not enough content, yes.
4: Adding more content is not bad, the issue is that we shouldn't be waiting for new content via updates just to have a game that feels somewhat complete.

I know you'll probably still intentionally misunderstand, but maybe someone else can get some use out of this.
 
It's better that GTS, GT6 and GT5. It falls far below GT2, GT3 and GT4. The genius of those games was the freedom they gave you. You unlocked all the events by passing the licence tests. They were open world games before that even became a type of game. You won your car as a prize for winning the event.

GT7 couldn't be more different from what made those games great. Kaz just can't do this anymore.
 
It's better that GTS, GT6 and GT5. It falls far below GT2, GT3 and GT4. The genius of those games was the freedom they gave you. You unlocked all the events by passing the licence tests. They were open world games before that even became a type of game. You won your car as a prize for winning the event.

GT7 couldn't be more different from what made those games great. Kaz just can't do this anymore.
It's sad that GT4 is still sitting top of the pedastal after all this time. I love the game but at this point, it really should've been surpassed by some other GT game
 
GT7 definitely is a real Gran Turismo. It contains nearly everything which made out the series so big and when you game it, you definitely sentise the unique GT-identity.
I personally can’t get enough to try everything out and spend time with the game. Not only GT cafe.
 
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It's sad that GT4 is still sitting top of the pedastal after all this time. I love the game but at this point, it really should've been surpassed by some other GT game
Sad thing is how easily they could have delivered. It's not like the game wouldn't be by far the best gt on track. Best visuals, best physics, best audio. Way ahead of what gt4 could achieve on a ps2. But now we have all this great stuff with like a tutorial gt mode. Who would have thought that? A gt where it's biggest weakness is its content. I wouldn't have.

Second problem is... You could buy Gt7 in 2 years for like 15 bucks and you might get 4 times the stuff. Even if they push out content every month, it will just feel like "slowly getting there"...
 
It's not remotely close to being a return to the formula/format that made GT so near and dear to many gamers and racers hearts.

I initially started with Music Rally. I'm also convinced I saw somewhere that you could achieve distances far greater than the Gold standard. I was disappointed to learn that Music Rallies end when the song does regardless of how many beats you have remaining. Why are the Songs not on a loop?

I was shepherded into the new GT Cafe, ok cool whatever, let's do this. Receive 20,000 Cr. Buy first car, this feels like early GT games. Except that besides the Toyota Aqua S 11' the only other car I needed to buy all the way to the finale and completing Menu 39 is a Toyota Tacoma... 2 Mandatory purchases, everything else given out as rewards and prizes, sometimes duplicates (and no way to sell the dupes either...)

On the way to the "Finale" I branched off to do things as they unlocked, licences, missions, poke around scapes and showcase etc. But the hand holding and constant need to return to GT Cafe to open more stuff up irked me by book 30 something. The whole experience wasn't at all like starting out in Amateur League in my Civic or MX-5 and progressing through FF, FR, MR, 4WD, various Championships and then moving up to the next league or difficulty.

(At this point I'd like state I'm aware GT7 gives up freedom to adjust difficulty up and down as we please via the chillies and create our own custom races. OK great. Except, the difficulty scaling does not affect all races so what is the point? and, you cannot as far I can tell, create a multi-race custom championship).

I slogged on through the remaining menu's and wiped the floor with the AI in the "finale". Now, posters on GTPlanet like to point out that the credits rolling is not the end, except that, that is exactly what credits are used to signify in a wide variety of media and tacking on a trophy titled "Finale" seems disingenuous if it is not to signify the end of "something".

After that, I poked around World circuits but constantly menu hopping and X and O pressing to find a race, pick a car, go to Auto Tuning buy correct tires or just grab Intermediates in case the 10 lap race with 5,000 decides to chuck cats and dogs while I'm 5 laps deeps and miles away from the pit lane. A notification on the race screen that rain is highly possible would be nice.

I finished all the preset races in 1st with multiple cars/setups/strategies (i.e 1 pitstop vs 2, pitting for wets vs staying out), At least Silver if not gold for everything else. I will not be grinding Fisherman's Ranch to fund tyre purchases and cars, let alone upgrades, nor will I be availing of the MTX.

Guess, I'm done for now untill GT7 Spec II comes out.
 
Gran Turismo 7 is the best Gran Turismo to date. The physics are improved, sound is massively improved, graphics are incredible, car and track counts are solid, GT mode and car tuning / customisation are back and better than ever.

I guess some people will winge no matter what


I couldn’t have said it better. Everyone complaining wasn’t around for the launch of LITERALLY EVERY GT GAME since GT3:A-spec. Everything on the PS3 was garbage when it came out and was fixed within the first few updates. I skipped PS4 but I imagine it was the same. KY is who he has always been. Delays and imperfect games at launch should be expected.
 
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Sad thing is how easily they could have delivered. It's not like the game wouldn't be by far the best gt on track. Best visuals, best physics, best audio. Way ahead of what gt4 could achieve on a ps2. But now we have all this great stuff with like a tutorial gt mode. Who would have thought that? A gt where it's biggest weakness is its content. I wouldn't have.

Second problem is... You could buy Gt7 in 2 years for like 15 bucks and you might get 4 times the stuff. Even if they push out content every month, it will just feel like "slowly getting there"...
I don't think you'll be able to buy GT7 for $15 anytime soon.
 
Can I ask a question?

Are some of you so genuinely obsessed with the idea of Gran Turismo that you're incapable of levying criticism at it? Are you so genuinely obsessed with it that you take others as a blatant, personal offense?

That's a rhetorical question, by the way. I know the answer is yes.
 
The things I listed are highly objective. You're just winging
Except they're not, they're subjective opinions. In particular, the physics and GT Mode have been a continued topic of discussion since launch, given the state of GT Mode's "career" and how it's mapped out, the games economy, and the games apparent tendency to make oversteering RWD cars almost impossible to recover in certain situations.
 
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It's better that GTS, GT6 and GT5. It falls far below GT2, GT3 and GT4. The genius of those games was the freedom they gave you. You unlocked all the events by passing the licence tests. They were open world games before that even became a type of game. You won your car as a prize for winning the event.

GT7 couldn't be more different from what made those games great. Kaz just can't do this anymore.
GT5, aside from it's PS2 model cars to make the car count higher, as a game was the biggest in terms of content. You could sell cars, you had a tooooon of stuff to do, and there were multiple ways to earn credits to buy the high-end cars.

It literally takes, bare minimum, over 600 hours to finish GT5. Yet, it took just barely over 30 hours for me to finish everything in GT7, with the only thing to complete in the game being the Platinum trophy which is only a question of asking a few of you guys in the forum to hang around with me with a Tomahawk X in Special Stage Route X to get the 13.000km trophy online and just do 50 sport races (not win them, just finish, which again, is easy).


What is saving Gran Turismo 7 from being an absolute flop, is the fact that it's a car game. It doesn't have a storyline or something of the sort.
Imagine a game like Horizon: Forbbiden West having only part of the story available at launch and you would have to wait for updates to get the rest?
That's what's saving GT7, because we all know that with future updates, the game can become infinitely better. But so far, it's way too lackluster in terms of offline content.

But yes, GT2 GT3 AND GT4 are still the goats of the series.

GT7 had the potential to, on this very day, have everything good that GT4 had and improve it even further with a few more additions.

Instead... we got... Music Rally... Really!?????

What we had in GT4 (only 2 and a 1/2 years after GT3 was released):

-High number of cars, all of which weren't "fake" VGTs (even with duplicates that was still nearly 600 unique cars) and 51 tracks, real life and fictional.
-5 Licenses with 16 tests that would reward you with cars for your efforts if you achieved Bronze, Silver and Gold and would also allow you to participate in races/championships that actually require you to have them. That's the whole point of license tests.
-34 fun and challenging driving missions.
-4 whole campaigns from Beginner, Professional, Extreme and Endurance Races, of which it featured races and championships (most of which had 5 or 10 races, with the FGT championship being 15 races) of all types of cars, from FF, FR, 4WD, Turbo, NA, MR, Supercars, Kei Cars, Hot Hatches, Classics, Group C/Le Mans and even Formula cars, this later one being an exact replica to the F1 championship with 15 races, giving you a pretty decent amount of money and one of the most sought after cars in the game (Sauber C9 Mercedes).
-3 other campaigns of the areas in Japan, Europe and America where it featured races and championships for cars from a certain nationality, age and again, type of car.
-Multiple One-Make Races and Championships, from almost every brand in the game.
-1 whole campaign of Rally/Snow/Wet races.
-In the championships, you had the option to QUALIFY yourself and dictate where you would start on the grid, instead of the new stupid chase the rabbit formula and majority of the time you had grid starts in the races (depending on which track, but it was on most of them) instead of rolling starts.
-You could sell any car in the game. You could even reset the championships you've won so that you could start them again to win a prize car and sell it again. The only cars you couldn't sell were the concept cars. Anything else you could sell for roughly 1/5 of their retail price. And the cars that you would win throughout the massive number of events in the game you could not buy them from dealerships, meaning that you would now from the start that those cars are prize cars awaiting for you to get them after winning their respective events. Also, the most expensive cars in the game (that you can buy) were 4.5 million credits and you had a championship that you could do that would give you about 5 to 6 million credits per hour via winning all 5 races and selling the prize car.
-You had the option, especially during the endurance races but you could do ANY race with your B-Spec driver. If you were too tired to do the 24hour races or any long endurance race, you could just pit and make your B-Spec driver do the rest of the race or part of the race until you were good to go at it again, with you setting at which pace he should drive.
-Physics that at the time even real life racing drivers were surprised at how close to reality the game was. This in 2004/2005 (GT7 has done good on this aspect at least).

Now compare all of this^ to what we have in GT7 at launch, a game that has been in development just shortly after GT6 was released in the end of 2013.

The disappointment and criticism is not only understandable, but it's necessary.
 
Forza Motorsport 3 is more a Gran Turismo game than Gran Turismo 7.

Plenty of races? Check.
1647397338170.png


Car count? About 500.

Selling cars? Check.
1647397420279.png

Endurance races? None that are super long, but they're there, so, check.
1647397570636.png
A decent economy balance where you still need to work for your cars, but in the endgame you're not left grinding forever regardless? Check.

Engine swaps that aren't locked behind RNG? Check.

Forza succeeded in being a Gran Turismo competitor. GT7 can't compete with GT4 or FM3, both over a decade old, GT4 approaching 20.

What's FM3 lacking? License tests, custom offline races.

The fact that these older games, including a franchise that was only ever designed to be a direct competitor to GT, surpass GT7 in content is astounding. FM3 had 220 events (edit: not 220 races, but events, the majority with at least 3 races, while GT7 has a total of 93 races, of far fewer types), laid out in a way that is easy to navigate and understand.

Why can't GT7 manage any of this all these years later?
 
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I don't get the VGT hate I see in this forum, I think they're cool even if they're not real.
I don't think anyone "hates" them, they're just disappointed that they seem to be increasingly focusing on the "fake" cars rather than bringing us new cars like the Porsche 992 and 918 Spyder, C8 Corvette, new M1/M3/M4/M6, McLaren P1, and various "sporty" sedans and coupes from makers from around the world. I made a thread about it a couple weeks ago but the game feels like it was released 6 years ago due to the shockingly low number of newer cars from the last 6-8 years, especially road cars. Add in a bunch of classics that we've never seen and it just seems like PD is taking the easy/cheap way out by giving us fantasy cars. Many of which are awesome to drive; I love most of them, I just want to see some road cars that are relevant to the current decade.

Edit: And many of the cars I listed aren't even close to being new, yet almost every other sim-cade/sim/arcade game has had them for years.
 
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Forza Motorsport 3 is more a Gran Turismo game than Gran Turismo 7.

Plenty of races? Check.
View attachment 1124864

Car count? About 500.

Selling cars? Check.
View attachment 1124865
Endurance races? None that are super long, but they're there, so, check.
View attachment 1124866A decent economy balance where you still need to work for your cars, but in the endgame you're not left grinding forever regardless? Check.

Engine swaps that aren't locked behind RNG? Check.

Forza succeeded in being a Gran Turismo competitor. GT7 can't compete with GT4 or FM3, both over a decade old, GT4 approaching 20.

What's FM3 lacking? License tests, custom offline races.

The fact that these older games, including a franchise that was only ever designed to be a direct competitor to GT, surpass GT7 in content is astounding. FM3 had 220 events, laid out in a way that is easy to navigate and understand.

Why can't GT7 manage any of this all these years later?

Today, Forza has abandoned all that in favor of pink, glitter and cringy memes.
 
Why can't GT7 manage any of this all these years later?
I distinctly remember reading an interview with Kaz (which I believe was posted here on GTP) from several years ago. In it, one of the things that Kaz mentioned was that he doesn't look at the competition too much when it comes to creating ideas for and developing each Gran Turismo game. Seeing some of the decisions made with GT Sport and GT7, I have a feeling that this thought process still exists in some capacity.

What Kaz seems to not realize (assuming my own assumption is correct) is that the racing genre, while still being a niche within a niche, has grown significantly since the days of GT4 and FM3/4, and as such the demands and expectations for these games have grown too. Gran Turismo no longer exists in its own little bubble like it used to pre-GT5, and several titles and franchises, while maybe not reaching the overall clout of Gran Turismo (though Forza Horizon seems to be the closest to achieving that), have clearly used the various facets of GT as an inspiration, and have taken inspiration from the series' strengths, while also learning how its weaknesses effect the overall product.

Perhaps Kaz, PD and Sony need to give a closer look at their competition and see what they're doing well, and what their shortcomings are, and figure out how to use some of those elements in conjunction with their own ideas to get Gran Turismo truly back on the top step. Otherwise we, the players, will continue be left with a product(s) that has highly-disliked game elements that have been passé in the industry as a whole for the past 5+ years. I dunno about anyone else, but I wouldn't be able to tolerate that for a very long time at all.
 
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