GT7 is just GT Sport+ (Trailer Breakdown)

[Elison_NC]

What if the OP is right?
we don't have any indication that the game is "work in progress". (Like gt sport was when it was announced)

I think the possibility is real that they are targeting the ps5 release date, and that the game is somewhat finished, and will be like shown in the video with minor modifications.

I think the points made by OP is valid, and that it makes sense that the game may be close to a finished state.

I hope I am wrong.

 

[rex1825]

I'll say few things here, I already gave word about trailer and what do I think in other threads on this sub-forum so I won't be deeply analysing that here.
Kaz and PD are aware that GT community wasn't satisfied with GTS when it came out, but GTS was a success for PD regardless.
Looking at the gameplay part of GT7 from demo, one can assume that GT7 was parallel work with GTS for more then 3 years, not sure when they've started working on GTS TBH, but it is likely that at the same time, or maybe few months later they've started working on GT7 too.

Every PS console up until PS4 had 2 iterations of GT game, does anyone think that PD didn't want to pull this with PS4 too? Few little changes and viola, new game, more money... but as I said, they are aware that GTS wasn't a success for gamers.

GT7 maybe has same physics engine as GTS, and it is totally normal, GTS will last at least year or so... it depends on how much people will switch to GT7. When this happens, and PD decides to shut down GTS, GT7 will start to get physics updates, maybe even GT8 will come... We don't know anything for now...

Gameplay from demo is pretty similar to GTS, even graphics is not much better there (if not same), trailer was cool, with all fancy stuff...

One cannot draw conclusions just from one part of gameplay that probably Sony pushed PD to release, so they've did what they've did, PD is known that any change is taking time, so even if they wanted to show us new engine and all, they weren't preparing it for this now (of course if there is one at all), every track, every car took months to finalise for GTS, I am sure same will go for GT7.

I can only hope, we will see this game at the lunch of new console or right after that...

 

[George Jakob]

What if the OP is right?
we don't have any indication that the game is "work in progress". (Like gt sport was when it was announced)

I think the possibility is real that they are targeting the ps5 release date, and that the game is somewhat finished, and will be like shown in the video with minor modifications.

I think the points made by OP is valid, and that it makes sense that the game may be close to a finished state.

I hope I am wrong.

I mean even if it does happen is that really bad?.

 

[rex1825]

What if the OP is right?
we don't have any indication that the game is "work in progress". (Like gt sport was when it was announced)

I think the possibility is real that they are targeting the ps5 release date, and that the game is somewhat finished, and will be like shown in the video with minor modifications.

I think the points made by OP is valid, and that it makes sense that the game may be close to a finished state.

I hope I am wrong.

...well, as it seems GTS and GT7 share same engine, why would there be major differences then... as I said, nothing is known for now except that GT7 is coming...

And as I said, GTS and GT7 maybe are same game, I presume PD started working on both at the same time approx... and PS5 just changed things... or maybe, since Kaz is SCEJ stuff, he was aware of PS5, and we will see something new in upcoming months.

I wouldn't mind that graphics stays as it is in GTS, but addition of dynamic weather and ToD would bring game to next level, and PS5 is capable of this...
One thing that I'm not sure of is, when PD showcased 8k60 fps footage, and later their in depth showcase of engine and how everything is almost dynamic (there were small loading times for textures when changing ToD if you recall) within gameengine, well I am not sure if that sort of dev kit, or whatever they've used had SSD that PS5 will ship with. Unreal Engine 5 definitely showed that loading assets is not an issue any more, so did Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart demo...

Still, I donno... we'll need to wait and see...

 

[Shingo_civic]

I mean even if it does happen is that really bad?.

Check out this post from @Vspectra :

If you have to compare back-to-back, then it is not significant. The difference is actually minuscule comparing back-to-back. It's the same PS4 assets and quality being re-used, with spinning 2D trees that exhibit shadow LOD pop-in. Track texture detail, rocks, vegetation, NPCs are the same quality as GTSport despite the massive power difference between generations. This is just the result of PD trying to do everything in-house and not getting outsourcing help for the environment assets. It was the same issue seen with GT5 having to reuse PS2 assets, and the reason for GTSport having mixed looking tracks where stuff like Alsace look PS3 era while Nurburgring looked great despite the low track count after 4 years of development.

Meanwhile, Playground Games is the same size as Polyphony, is able to create a large variety of fully 3D vegetation that sway in the wind, and smartly used imposter 2D LOD models for the far off vegetation that eventually switch to the 3D counterpart to save on resources, all the while having voxel GI with dynamic lighting and weather, 4 different seasons each drastically changing the environment assets, and runs at a locked 60fps on One X. Polyphony will eventually get left behind again, either in quantity, or consistent quality.

Forza Horizon 4 current-gen. This isn't even photomode, it's from the drone you can fly around the whole environment in real-time.

As you see it's pretty bad even compared to current gen games so let's hope PD take their time and deliver us a truly next gen game also on the technical aspect, not just a copy paste of GTS with some better reflections and higher resolution

 

[George Jakob]

Check out this post from @Vspectra :



As you see it's pretty bad even compared to current gen games so let's hope PD take their time and deliver us a truly next gen game also on the technical aspect, not just a copy paste of GTS with some better reflections and higher resolution

I am aware 👍 what i meant is that GTS is a pretty good base in terms of gameplay . Τhe biggest problem people had with GTS was the lack of classic GT elements.

 

[SDSPOWER01]

we don't have any indication that the game is "work in progress".

https://www.gran-turismo.com/us/news/00_1197055.html

*Images shown are from a pre-final English version of the game.

Not that I want to sound like a PD Apologist or anything but pre-final version does implicate that the game is still being worked on.



We all remembered when PD released some Pre-final footage of the game when they were showcasing gameplay. If you take a look in this video you can clearly see alot can change from pre-final version to final version. (Yes its 3 years after but not much has changed graphic-wise from the final version of the game released in 2017)

Besides we all know that Polyphony Digital likes to push performance as much as they can when it comes to delivering a final version of the game and even further update it to get it to their visual perfection.

So again what has been shown is simpy an anouncement/a taste and does not implicate the final version of the game visual wise, gameplay wise and performance wise.

Sure all can voice their opinion on the footage shown but what the OP has done is treated his opinion as actual facts of that is how the game is gonna be and many people here including myself seems to disagree on that simple matter.

 

[Lord Protector]

I am aware 👍 what i meant is that GTS is a pretty good base in terms of gameplay . I mean the biggest problem people had with GTS was the lack of classic GT elements.

The thing is, you can’t just “add” content to GTS and call it a day. They tried to do that with GTS’ additional content and it just felt like custom races, with some crappy text at start of the races and one old song.

Every new GT title has always had better physics, graphics and stuff, even at the same gen.

 

[rex1825]

TBH there are die hard fans that want all that, but, what if people get bored with all this? What if even I, who loved all this in previous games don't want to play career as I did when I was younger?
...I mean, I want all this in the game, I want that GT7 is ultimate game for racing, but there are other people that maybe don't want all that, ...maybe even I, even though I want it, I would not play it... what if?

Gran Turismo has heritege... GTS was a bit different game, everyone compared it to some kind of prologue... but it wasn't, it was full blown online competitive game, and that's what it was... But yet people were not satisfied by it. Look at Assetto Corsa Competizione... how much tracks does it have? How much cars does it have? It is a sim, yes, but it has really no content compared to GTS, yet it is a great game. GTS is a simcade game that everyone can enjoy, ...yes we don't have that much of cars, yes we don't have that much of tracks as previous GTs had... but... we have more then ACC for example (I love both AC games just so you know)

What if GTS won't get any more of tracks/cars, because PD knows PS5 is more powerful and they can utilise it for whatever they wanted with GTS.

What if, at the end of the day, GT7 will be much much better then we anticipate? PS5 reveal was great, but Sony didn't show all of it, because Sony doesn't want their fans to be disappointed, yet everyone is buzzing about it... because what they've showed was good... PD is part of Sony, so probably they are doing what boss says I don't know, I just say...

Let that sink in and fill the gaps between lines by yourself...

 

[George Jakob]

Every new GT title has always had better physics, graphics and stuff, even at the same gen.

I would argue that GT6 didn't do that but i fully understand what you mean.👍

The thing is, you can’t just “add” content to GTS and call it a day. They tried to do that with GTS’ additional content and it just felt like custom races, with some crappy text at start of the races and one old song.

Trust me the campaign stuff is one of the things i dislike about GTS but the huge difference is the execution. In GTS anything offline related was an after thought while its a selling point for GT7.

 

[phonyk]

If all we get grom GT7 is GT Sport's physics, with graphics updated to add some RT features, plus 500 odd cars, car modification, and a full and comprehensive single player experience in the vein of GT4, frankly I'd be absolutely chuffed with that. And I wouldn't be suprised if that's exactly what we get because I find it hard to believe that's not what PD have been working on since they released GT Sport. I'm sure they intended from the outset to release a full fat Gran Turismo game on the PS4 but once the console started approaching end-of-life, it makes sense to shift it over to the PS5 platform and give it a little bit of next-gen polish to boot. I highly doubt they'd be throwing things developed for PS4 into the bin when they already look and perform very well.

I don't want to say that I'd just be grateful for literally anything at this point, but the last Gran Turismo game was seven years ago. Many would argue that the last really good Gran Turismo game was released in 2004 - I'd probably be among them. If PD are aiming to go back to the roots of the franchise by returning to the GT4 format, then I'm absolutely supportive of that. I don't expect a GT game to have industry leading simulation physics; that's not why I - or hopefully anyone - ever bought a GT game. For me, the real quality of Gran Turismo has been in the depth of content. I don't really care if the graphics aren't literally the best graphics in human history. GT Sport looks great. GT7 will look great. I'm keeping my sim rig for the PC sims, and I'll be playing GT7 sat on my sofa with a controller in my hand, hopefully having an enjoyable gameplay experience which I've not really had in over 15 years.

 

[KilzoneStrife]

After seeing this video... I think the difference between GT7 and GT Sport is bigger than we thought...

 

[Elison_NC]

After seeing this video... I think the difference between GT7 and GT Sport is bigger than we thought...

But if the physics, tyre model etc is the same then it's just cosmetics.

 

[George Jakob]

But if the physics, tyre model etc is the same then it's just cosmetics.

But then again its the first public build of the game lets wait before we make any solid conclusions.

 

[Ramosis]

An interesting analysis of Ray Tracing in the PS5 trailers, by Digital Foundry (of course including GT7):

 

[KilzoneStrife]

But if the physics, tyre model etc is the same then it's just cosmetics.

I doubt they are the same...based on an assumption we get dynamic day/night/rain... and thats on the assumption the clouds rolling and the sun peeking through means that.

An interesting analysis of Ray Tracing in the PS5 trailers, by Digital Foundry (of course including GT7):

cant see it because I'm at work, can someone please summarize what they say (about GT7 alone please)

 

[Theufcveteran]

cant see it because I'm at work, can someone please summarize what they say (about GT7 alone please)

Ray traced reflections are running at quarter resolution (1080p), however it looks to be checkerboarded so it may be a lower base resolution. Having said that, it’s a very acceptable trade off to have ray tracing running at 4K/60, and it still looks pretty damn good. The lower resolution was the reason the 917 looked a little “blurry” on certain parts of the bodywork - that’s the reflections having a lower pixel count.

 

[Ramosis]

Ray traced reflections are running at quarter resolution (1080p), however it looks to be checkerboarded so it may be a lower base resolution. Having said that, it’s a very acceptable trade off to have ray tracing running at 4K/60, and it still looks pretty damn good. The lower resolution was the reason the 917 looked a little “blurry” on certain parts of the bodywork - that’s the reflections having a lower pixel count.

Adding some detail, the car's body and windows, some parts of interiors, helmets and mirrors are ray-traced objetcs. Overall this makes the objects looks more realistic than before. Although DF doesn't mention ray-traced shadows. So I think it's possible to be implemented at some point, after some code optimization, since they mention that ray-traced shadows are less processing costly than surface reflections.

Summing up, they say that 4k at 60 fps with ray-tracing requires a lot of processing power, and optimizations are necessary for good overall image quality. Let's see what PD can deliver...

 

[Castrol96]

GT Sport = Baked static ray traced environments, 240p 24fps reflection cube maps.

GT7 = Realtime Ray-tracing, dynamic weather, higher res reflection maps at 60fps.

All I can think of that GT7 has over Sport

 

[rex1825]

GT Sport = Baked static ray traced environments, 240p 24fps reflection cube maps.

GT7 = Realtime Ray-tracing, dynamic weather, higher res reflection maps at 60fps.

All I can think of that GT7 has over Sport

Digital Foundry confirmed it is 1/4 (or even less) of 4k resolution for raytracing...

 

[PaMu1337]

Digital Foundry confirmed it is 1/4 (or even less) of 4k resolution for raytracing...

Which is a lot higher than 240p

 

[Ramosis]

Digital Foundry confirmed it is 1/4 (or even less) of 4k resolution for raytracing...

When they said 1/4 of resolution, they were meaning pixels numbers, so it's half of 4k resolution, 1080p. In other hand they said it would be less since, apparently reflections was using checkerboard technique.

 

[Garland]

The funny thing is that even if the OP is right, the situation they describe isn't even a bad thing.

Every console generation experiences clear diminishing returns. The PS5 is not going to be this huge jump from the PS4. Sony has always emphasized the new storage and the better audio over anything else, and so we should expect the same from any PS5 title. GT7 will look a little better, sound better, and run a lot better than Sport. The same should go for basically any PS5 to PS4 comparison.

And that's really all it needs to do. I would hope that at least most of the people who have seen the GT7 trailer have come to realize that Sport was always "7 Prologue", even if you ignore Yamauchi talking about "GT7 for the PS4" and then releasing Sport right afterward.

It's good Polyphony didn't let all that effort with Sport go to waste, and a lot of people like Sport despite it being a huge content cut (like GT3 was), because the content cut was worth it (it was for GT3 as well!). "Sport but better" is a big selling point. Maybe this is a terrible outcome for some, like the OP. But for the majority, I cannot imagine how this could possibly be anything but a solid step forward.

Honestly, Sport now being properly revealed as "7 Prologue" works in its favor. Now we can see Sport as the smaller prototype game that it is, rather than attempt to justify it as a main game. I personally don't mind calling Sport a main game like GT3 was, but it's far better that I don't have to, isn't it?

 

[rex1825]

When they said 1/4 of resolution, they were meaning pixels numbers, so it's half of 4k resolution, 1080p. In other hand they said it would be less since, apparently reflections was using checkerboard technique.

...that is what I said, 1/4 of 4k is 1080p

 

[Castrol96]

Looking at Rachet and Clank it said "Pre-Alpha build" and Has No Relase Date.

Assume this is the same case with Gran Turismo 7. Release is probably Q4 2021-22

 

[Lux Klonoa]

Looking at Rachet and Clank it said "Pre-Alpha build" and Has No Relase Date.

Assume this is the same case with Gran Turismo 7. Release is probably Q4 2021-22

NBA 2K21 also had the "pre-alpha build" label on it during the showcase, and that's pretty much releasing this year given how sports games tend to release every year and especially at a console's launch, IIRC.

Regardless, it's still early to know. Gotta wait till the rumored August event.

That said, though... it is quite worrying that the official GT site hasn't updated yet with its own GT7 section. There's the trailer, but that's about it. =/

 

[fernandito]

Yes physics look exactly the same as GT Sport. Apparently he didn't even bother with the wheel animation too in cockpit view, something that leads many to believe he too hasn't even bothered implementing a proper wheel calibration tool, once more.

And the more important thing, with the new ps5 processor and overall power, this Yamauchi Dinosaur could at least bother adding a new proper simulated tyre model, like other sims have already done for more than seven years already...

I never expected anything new from him to be honest, as this dude has been Sony living like a marquis for two decades already. Naive me that I thought he would improve the simulation thanks to the new gen power...

What bothers me the most about this guy is that Sony killed Evolution Studios and Driveclub only to continue to feed him. Never forget

 

[daan]

Will Mr. Old Dinosaur Yamauchi

Old Dinosaur's

Yamauchi Dinosaur

I'm sure you could make your point without the insults.

 

[danh25]

Yes physics look exactly the same as GT Sport. Apparently he didn't even bother with the wheel animation too in cockpit view, something that leads many to believe he too hasn't even bothered implementing a proper wheel calibration tool, once more.

And the more important thing, with the new ps5 processor and overall power, this Yamauchi Dinosaur could at least bother adding a new proper simulated tyre model, like other sims have already done for more than seven years already...

I never expected anything new from him to be honest, as this dude has been Sony living like a marquis for two decades already. Naive me that I thought he would improve the simulation thanks to the new gen power...

What bothers me the most about this guy is that Sony killed Evolution Studios and Driveclub only to continue to feed him. Never forget

So you did a surgical analysis of a video of a developing game and almost even went to review it?

 

[Ramosis]

Kazunori Yamauchi-san is a unique person, of course. Various idiosyncrasies in GT games sure are due his and their team visions. But this what make GT series be what it is. Of course, I want that series evolves, so I think, as community we can share our ideas and try to promove such changes as we wish. I know not everything can be done, due technological questions, or simply divergent views that can change series character.

I understand the frustation, as changes are not in speed we wish, but if we keep supporting the GT team as community, I'm sure PD can share with us a balanced vison of GT as we and they imagine.