GTP Cool Wall: 2004-2009 Honda S2000

[Harry6784]

And you consider that rice?

A roll cage and aero parts that make you scrape on a leaf are about a as ricey as you can get. All the mods they have are for show. Pop the hood, ask them for a dyno sheet or about their suspension mods and they draw a blank. Combine that with the fact that nearly all of them peel out & ride the limiter in the parking garage at my school doesn't equate to a mature car enthusiast in my mind.

 

[White & Nerdy]

I was going to say - isn't Azuremen one of the HP/L people himself?

 

[Downhill Dino]

A roll cage and aero parts that make you scrape on a leaf are about a as ricey as you can get. All the mods they have are for show. Pop the hood, ask them for a dyno sheet or about their suspension mods and they draw a blank. Combine that with the fact that nearly all of them peel out & ride the limiter in the parking garage at my school doesn't equate to a mature car enthusiast in my mind.

Fair point.

 

[Azure Flare]

1. The Fast & Furious crowd.

2. At least around here, this car seemed to spark the whole "Ermagherd! Hersepower per liter!" thing.

3. Not a fan of high-winding, torque-less engines.

1. Easy to ignore them, but I think they refer to themselves as "Stance" nowadays.

2. You might be right, but the purpose of this post is to disagree with you.

3. The F20 series engines have a wide power band, so when you floor it, you still have power.

 

[Nessy]

It is a Miata for men too insecure to buy a Miata.

Used to own an AP1, now owns a Fiat 500.. Your argument is invalid.

 

[Azuremen]

I love the stereotypes about Honda owners being made by people who own cars that have the exact same stereotypes made about them.

Oh I know how it sounds, seeing how I own a BMW M model But the rabid Honda/VTEC/S2000 types just argue despite all logic, just like Subaru bros and AWD+Turbo=God'sGift etc etc.

Honda people just tend to be the most outspoken about HP/L nonsense and high RPMs in that not thought out way. Of course, the number of Bimmer heads that fundamentally don't understand how VTEC works is obnoxious, to say the least.

It isn't that I think the S2000 is a bad car, it is a solid piece of engineering for sure.

I was going to say - isn't Azuremen one of the HP/L people himself?

Hardly. I am a fan of many, many engineering and design philosophies. Yes, I do talk on about efficiency when discussing ICE versus Electric motors, but by no means do I think HP/L is a sign of performance. Power delivery and torque curves are as important, if not more so, than HP and I find the HP/L argument tiresome because it is typically misguided. I'd much rather have a more usable power band and broader ratios than peaky power and close ratios. Plus, the number of times I've rambled about how absurd rotary engines are and how the RX-7 is always better with an LSx it is countless.

Basically, I consider all the values before forming an opinion. I suggest you do the same.

Used to own an AP1, now owns a Fiat 500.. Your argument is invalid.

Well exceptions do exist

 

[Harry6784]

3. The F20 series engines have a wide power band, so when you floor it, you still have power.

You can have the widest torque band in the world, you're still not going anywhere with 146lb-ft of torque.

 

[White & Nerdy]

I'm sure you know I actually agree with you about HP/L as an indicator of performance, but try convincing anyone else it's not important. My own car probably couldv'e made it to -0.750 or better if it weren't for the "V6 has low specific output so automatically sux" line of reasoning. It has more torque than this car here, and while its powerband probably isn't actually that wide, it's still probably more useable.

 

[Azuremen]

You can have the widest torque band in the world, you're still not going anywhere with 146lb-ft of torque.

Yet it seems to be not much slower than an LS1 powered F body, so apparently it does go somewhere.

You seem to be neglecting ratios.

@Azure Flare - I'm sorry, but saying the F20 has a wide power band is like saying a GM V6 from the 90's is high revving. It just isn't true.

I'm sure you know I actually agree with you about HP/L as an indicator of performance, but try convincing anyone else it's not important. My own car probably couldv'e made it to -0.750 or better if it weren't for the "V6 has low specific output so automatically sux" line of reasoning. It has more torque than this car here, and while its powerband probably isn't actually that wide, it's still probably more useable.

Did you not notice how I avoided mentioning your car so this conversation wouldn't happen? Can you pull your head out of your ass for just a moment, please? That engine is crap because it doesn't make much torque, power, and isn't efficient while failing at either. My smaller S50 makes more power, torque, and gets better fuel economy.

Just stop lying to yourself about that car. It is junk. And it is okay that is junk, because we've all owned junk.

 

[Azure Flare]

I'm sorry, but saying the F20 has a wide power band is like saying a GM V6 from the 90's is high revving. It just isn't true.

A lot of high-revving engines do, and this is one of them.

True, peak horsepower is right about the red-line. But look at the torque curve, it's consistently about 130 lb-ft until around what looks like about 6400 RPM, when V-TEC kicks in, when it jumps to 146 lb-ft.

 

[Zenith]

@Azure Flare You forgot the "Yo."

 

[Azure Flare]

Left it out on purpose.

 

[White & Nerdy]

Computer simulation BS incoming!

I ran the numbers on @Azuremen's "not much slower than an LS1 F-body" claim. It depends on which one you're using. A fully sick SS 6MT coupe will absolutely stomp all over it, and a plain Z28 coupe isn't much worse. If you go all the way to a Z28 4AT convertible (poor man's AT vert Corvette, IMO), it'll be slower in overtaking situations (sometimes slightly and sometimes quite a bit) , but in a straight up contest of acceleration, the winner seems to depend on exactly where the finish line is, they swap places and gain & lose ground on each other several times with the AT Camaro opening up a big lead in the higher speed ranges. Just for the fun of it I threw an LT1 SS coupe, with the optional performance exhaust, into the mix, and it still stomped on the Honda. And the hypothetical "worst possbile" LS1 Camaro, though that car does start to gain slowly on the LT1 SS coupe above 130mph.

Note that in this comparison, I gave the Honda the benefit of the doubt by using the Club Racer model, which is very, very slightly faster. The difference is overtaking times is negligable, however, except in 100-180 km/h and 50-90 mph runs (0.3 seconds each), with a difference of only 0.1 seconds in 40-70 mph runs and the same times in 60-100 km/h and 80-120 km/h runs.

 

[Zenith]

I'm not sure what computer simulations you are running but Honda S2000's and late 90's to early 00's Camaro SS' will both do 0-60 in about 5 and a half seconds.

Obviously the Camaro will pull away once it finally finds traction, but Azuremen's point wasn't that an S2000 can outdrag a Camaro anyways.

 

[Azuremen]

A lot of high-revving engines do, and this is one of them.

True, peak horsepower is right about the red-line. But look at the torque curve, it's consistently about 130 lb-ft until around what looks like about 6400 RPM, when V-TEC kicks in, when it jumps to 146 lb-ft.

And how does about 2000rpm qualify as a wide powerband? The S2000 spends most of its time having about as much torque as a Corolla or Civic with less displacement, and only gets up and moves after the VTEC point. Which you are virtually never near in day to day driving.

 

[White & Nerdy]

The data comes courtesy of Automobile-Catalog.com, which uses the ProfessCars model. According to the data open in another window right now, the best possible S2000 AP2 runs 6 seconds flat to 60 MPH, 14.6 to 100 MPH, and 154 MPH in the top end, while the best possible gen 4 Camaro does 5.2, 12.3, and 169 respectively. The 1/4 mile times are 14.4 @ 99 MPH for the Honda and 13.6 @ 105 MPH for the Camaro SS. This translates to a 42 yard advantage by the time you cross the line.

If you're considering buying an S2000 for purposes for which speed is important, look around for a Club Racer model. It does seem to have some advantage in the acceleration department, starting with a 0.1 second advantage at 20 MPH, and really begins to show a difference above 60 MPH, reaching each 10 MPH increment from 70-130 MPH 0.4 or 0.5 seconds faster than a non-CR 2009 S2000, though the times begin to get closer as they approach their identical 154 MPH top speeds. In the quarter, the speed advantage has only barely started to stack up, with the standard S2000 running 14.5 @ 98 MPH, 0.1 seconds, 1 MPH, and four yards behind.

 

[Azure Flare]

And how does about 2000rpm qualify as a wide powerband?

I think you missed the part about how it has a wide power band, and not just below 4500 RPM.

 

[Azuremen]

I think you missed the part about how it has a wide power band, and not just below 4500 RPM.

Last I checked, the torque curve and the power band are different things, at least when discussing performance focused cars. Sure, you don't need to drive the S2000 in the VTEC range to get around town, but it is hardly exciting to do, nor are you going to smoothly glide past traffic below the VTEC point.

Question - have you ever driven an S2000?

 

[Azure Flare]

No, but I suppose a Civic Si is close enough. Not as powerful, but the engine is very similar.

And I actually always though the power band was horsepower and torque combined, I guess not.

 

[Azuremen]

No, but I suppose a Civic Si is close enough. Not as powerful, but the engine is very similar.

Not really. The F20 and F22 shift power further up the rev range. Neither car is particularly interesting to drive below the VTEC point, at least in my experience.

And I actually always though the power band was horsepower and torque combined, I guess not.

HP and Torque always intersect at 5252 RPM as a result of HP = Torque * RPM/5252

In terms of performance, the powerband is generally the rev range where you need to keep the car to have acceleration and response. In this case, the powerband for performance is above the VTEC point. Thus the shorter gear ratios.

 

[Kent]

The data comes courtesy of Automobile-Catalog.com, which uses the ProfessCars model. According to the data open in another window right now, the best possible S2000 AP2 runs 6 seconds flat to 60 MPH, 14.6 to 100 MPH, and 154 MPH in the top end, while the best possible gen 4 Camaro does 5.2, 12.3, and 169 respectively. The 1/4 mile times are 14.4 @ 99 MPH for the Honda and 13.6 @ 105 MPH for the Camaro SS. This translates to a 42 yard advantage by the time you cross the line.

If you're considering buying an S2000 for purposes for which speed is important, look around for a Club Racer model. It does seem to have some advantage in the acceleration department, starting with a 0.1 second advantage at 20 MPH, and really begins to show a difference above 60 MPH, reaching each 10 MPH increment from 70-130 MPH 0.4 or 0.5 seconds faster than a non-CR 2009 S2000, though the times begin to get closer as they approach their identical 154 MPH top speeds. In the quarter, the speed advantage has only barely started to stack up, with the standard S2000 running 14.5 @ 98 MPH, 0.1 seconds, 1 MPH, and four yards behind.

Instead of using a computer simulator to get the stats, just use history to get the facts. 👍

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/honda-s2000-short-take-road-test

5.4 to 60 and 1/4 in 14.1

 

[White & Nerdy]

I tend to regard magazine sites as a clumsy way to find information, since the review you're looking for may or may not be on their site. Additionally, I've heard Car & Driver applies correction factors to their test results that tend to make them a bit faster, so it'd be interesting to find a review of a 98-02 Camaro SS 6MT coupe from the same source and compare.

 

[Wolfe]

While worshipping HP/L is misguided, I find the common antithetical mindset of HRUGHRUGH GRUNT TORK just as tiresome. It's the other side of the same coin. There's more to engines than power per liter, and there's more to engines than maximum twist at low RPM. If either party was correct we'd all be driving cars powered by either motorcycle/F1 engines or diesels. What really matters in the end is torque and RPM together -- aka horsepower. Both are useless without the other. More of either is good.

@Azuremen -- For what it's worth, the S2000 is clearly not the sort of car built to ooze around traffic on city streets or quiet suburban parkways. It's closer to a mass-produced overweight Lotus Seven. Personally, I find appeal in the "duality" of a high-strung engine; Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and all that. If I don't need the thrust, I don't need it. If I want it, it's only a gearchange away, and the visceral thrill of winding up the tachometer is a reward for utilizing it.

 

[Azure Flare]

HRUGHRUGH GRUNT TORK

I can't find the words to describe that.

 

[Azuremen]

@Azuremen -- For what it's worth, the S2000 is clearly not the sort of car built to ooze around traffic on city streets or quiet suburban parkways. It's closer to a mass-produced overweight Lotus Seven. Personally, I find appeal in the "duality" of a high-strung engine; Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and all that. If I don't need the thrust, I don't need it. If I want it, it's only a gearchange away, and the visceral thrill of winding up the tachometer is a reward for utilizing it.

I understand, fully. My old AW11 spun out to 8500RPM when I had the 20V in it, and it was fun to hear that engine scream. But I've come to enjoy smooth, torque driven power a bit more, at least in a daily driver. Plus smoothly and undramatically being able to get off a light and re position in traffic is far "cooler" to me than POWWAHHHHHHHHHH AND NOIZZZZZ when doing so

 

[White & Nerdy]

I just happened on something funny that might cast a little doubt on the accuracy of those simulations... I was clicking through their photos-of-the-moment and apparently a 1959 Chevy wagon with the 283 fuelie and 4MT gearbox can go 157 MPH. If given the whole circumference of the planet to accelerate According to the data presented, that car would take 4 minutes, 13.6 seconds to reach 110 MPH and 6 minutes, 4.7 seconds to reach 180 km/h (which is, what, 112 MPH?)

Can you imagine trying to hit 120 in that thing, let alone 157?

Note, though, that this seems to be a rare thing, never seen it do anything like that before.

Actually, I seem to have stumbled on a completely glitched car. 1/4 mile in 35.4 @ 185 MPH Either something about the car was outside what the simulation was programmed to handle, or someone just planted spurious information for the lulz.

Acceleration numbers seem to be in the ballpark though.

 

[Sage Ages]

Why does everyone care so much about the redline? It's not exactly low.

 

[Famine]

This discussion is the coolest thing ever. It's amazing that normal people can think car guys are tedious anoraks.

 

[skynyrd]

I thought "VTEC kicked in yo" came from the Civics?

Anyway, I've always liked the S2000...it's like a Miata (which I also like because they look like they'd be a lot of fun to drive), but it looks less girly and the engine is more powerful. The ability to rev that high is nice, but general gutlessness at lower rpms (according to people who've driven them) hurts it some. The're still running around all over the place here in Alabama and, to be honest, I've only ever seen one modified that I can remember; dark gray with a black hood, aftermarket wheels and a small spoiler...no crazy colors, the wheels actually looked like they belonged on the car, and forget the 'spoilers are BAD' crowd, I've always liked a spoiler that works with a car's design; it looked cool. The FNF crowd around here tends to go for '90s cavaliers, civics, and the occasional Lexus or Chrysler 300.

It's a very cool car, but it's not sub zero.

 

[motortrend]

I like these a lot. When these came out and I was a kid I always thought about who would buy one instead of apending a little more on a boxster. Now that I've seen a few modded ones on the street/track and an n/a one drifting out of a corner redlining at about 80mph i really want one