GTP Online Racing Bureau (GTP ORB) Now Hiring!
- Thread starter gogatrs
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- 12,018
- Indianapolis
- BrandonW77
- 1,283
- GTP_FreakinWolfy
Haha, it's fine Stig, every group needs intellectuals to go behind the muscle, or in this case drivers.
By the way, I really like that idea of yours. I have never been the most keen on the license tests, even though I can sort of see their merit. I've been sitting here trying to poke holes in it, and the more I think about it the more I think that it is a great way to go about it.
By the way, I really like that idea of yours. I have never been the most keen on the license tests, even though I can sort of see their merit. I've been sitting here trying to poke holes in it, and the more I think about it the more I think that it is a great way to go about it.
- 12,018
- Indianapolis
- BrandonW77
I disagree. GT5 online racing is its own beast and doesn't follow a pattern that any real-world or other online racing adheres to. Some of it's the same but there are plenty of things specific to GT5 online that you're only aware of if you've spent time racing online. If you can't find a room it means you have little to no experience racing GT5 online and thus means you are not in a position to be handing out judgments against somebody.
I'm not trying to pick on you personally, I'm trying to express concerns that members of the general GTP public will have. But personally, I would not apply any rules or penalties to my league unless I know they are decided on by people who have lots of experience dealing with the online aspects of GT5 racing.
- 12,018
- Indianapolis
- BrandonW77
From what I can tell, the "set up system" states:
"1.2. The process begins when a qualified steward...."
- I (the GTP community) would expect "qualified" to mean somebody with lots of experience with GT5 online racing -
1.3. ...Inspection follows guidelines set forth by the sanctioning body....
- I do not see the "guidelines" listed anywhere. If you want the GTP community to follow your "verdict" then the guidelines used to come to said verdict should be transparent and clearly posted for everyone to review -
Again, I'm not trying to pick on you. But maybe questions like "how do I find an online room" or "how do I create a gmail account" should be kept to PM's so the general public doesn't start to question the ability of ORB members.
"1.2. The process begins when a qualified steward...."
- I (the GTP community) would expect "qualified" to mean somebody with lots of experience with GT5 online racing -
1.3. ...Inspection follows guidelines set forth by the sanctioning body....
- I do not see the "guidelines" listed anywhere. If you want the GTP community to follow your "verdict" then the guidelines used to come to said verdict should be transparent and clearly posted for everyone to review -
Again, I'm not trying to pick on you. But maybe questions like "how do I find an online room" or "how do I create a gmail account" should be kept to PM's so the general public doesn't start to question the ability of ORB members.
- 12,018
- Indianapolis
- BrandonW77
It's ok, I'm not trying to rain on the parade or anything. We can all overlook things when we're excited and I'm just trying to add an outside perspective. When I became a "league director" I had to change my GTP behavior and stopped posting my thoughts/feelings in random threads because I felt like I had an "image" to uphold as a race director. Since I advertise the Capp Cup in my avatar, title and signature anything I post on here directly reflects the Capp Cup as a whole so I really censor myself a lot outside of my league thread. It's a new skill I had to learn but I think it's for the better, so I was just trying to share that learning experience with everyone here.
- 12,018
- Indianapolis
- BrandonW77
Don't worry too much about what I say, I'm not really involved in this so I was just trying to give an un-biased point of view to kind of represent what the general community might be concerned about. If they see it being rushed through and "forced" then they might not put a lot of validity to the ORB sanctioning and/or rules. Since this is out in the public for everyone to see, you have to presume everybody is watching and scrutinizing. There have already been some nay-sayers here and while their comments were mostly mis-placed they did have some valid concerns. Seeing those concerns addressed would go a long way to lending credibility to the ORB.
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- 1,283
- GTP_FreakinWolfy
Why not?
We're perfectly competent individuals who have an equal say in the goings on here. We can't make anything official without them because they have as much say as we do, but we can pursue whatever ideas come to mind, such as Stig's referring to the license system
Ps- I have discovered the iPhone app so I will be able to keep up with the discussions while away. Gotta love technology
We're perfectly competent individuals who have an equal say in the goings on here. We can't make anything official without them because they have as much say as we do, but we can pursue whatever ideas come to mind, such as Stig's referring to the license system
Ps- I have discovered the iPhone app so I will be able to keep up with the discussions while away. Gotta love technology
- 9,741
- Las Vegas UTC-8
- Wardez
- Wardez
Ok so here's what I came up with after lots of thinking.
We are throwing out license tests, but not in a way you'd think. This will be to effectively satisfy both types of racers that would want to participate in ORB sanctioned races. The racer that just wants to race. And the one who doesn't mind a challenge and taking a bit of time to do testing.
Now there will be two ways of going up in license: by doing races and performing well, or by opting to do a license time trial.
So here's how it works:
All the licenses will stay intact, but the regular way to rise up in rank will be by finishing within a certain percentage of races (this is to scale with number of participants in a race).
Every one starts off with a beginner license. In order to rise in rank you need to place within the top, say, 80% in at least two races in order to get to the next license, which is Amateur.
After that we'll set a new Race Finish Requirement or 'RFR' in order to move on to the license after amateur and so on. It's important to note that the race finish requirement percentage is figured with how many FINISHED, not how many started. This is to keep people that finish high in a race where most people disconnected from getting an RFR. There will also be a minimum race distance that must be met that'll be figured out in the future.
So for example, newly registered driver 'Bob' has just signed up and wants to start racing right away so he joins a series that allows beginner license holders. He finds out that he needs to finish in the top 80% of the finishers in order for the race to count as one RFR. He notes that ten people join so all he needs to do is finish in the top eight. He qualifies last and figures he has some work to do. He races cleanly and gets up to eighth! One person leaves the race so he now realizes he needs to fight for seventh place in order to get an RFR point. He passes for seventh on the last lap and feels like a champ because he realizes that he's now right on his way to an amateur license. ORB just made a fight for seventh place feel like a championship bout and I think that would be awesome.
I think this would, initially, solve the problem people see with drivers not wanting to test just to race. So it makes it so they just can. In the beginning it'll be fun because every one will start out at the same level. But if a new driver comes around much later on he probably won't want to start off at beginner so later on we'll open up the option of getting a higher license by testing for it through a simple testing procedure.
There will also be a side test that I'm making up. It's based entirely on imagery and will present the testing driver with a bunch of scenarios from a first-person driving perspective, sometimes third, where I'll illustrate a racing incident in the middle of it happening and the test will then ask, " What do you do in this situation?" and give him multiple choice questions.
This will be made to be an option for race organizers to use if they'd like to immediately take a new driver but they're not exactly sure that they're clean. This would take much less time then a 1 on 1 track demo to check for racing etiquette and should work just as well at identifying clean racers as long as we put everything we have into it to make sure it's thorough and correct.
The thing that changes here is that we will REALLY have to be on the ball about getting exact results from all participating race organizers. We'll have to be incredibly insistent on getting valid, timely and correct race results. A series won't be sanctioned unless we're completely confident in the organizer's ability to deliver clear and legit results every time. Penalties will also need to be sorted before they give us results. There's going to be a lot of factors that will deem a race to be RFR worthy and I'll draw up all those details soon if we want to go ahead with this system. ALL of the race results will be posted to a spreadsheet after they're confirmed in order to keep a complete archive of all events.
So, keep in mind all of those numbers will be tweaked but the main idea's what I'm after. What do you think? Good compromise?
EDIT:
I just realized that getting RFRs will be hard on regular ORB race series that have long race schedules. I don't want lots of people just popping in and out of lower level racing series just to get their RFRs, licenses and then leave (or maybe it might not be that bad... but anyway) so I thought of something kind of cool.
Sanctioned ORB spot races that run every week, maybe four times a week depending on whether we have someone dedicated enough to run them?
These races will act as yet another way to get your RFRs and with the scaling done well, it'll be really easy to make these races adaptable to different difficulties for higher license RFRs simply by requiring peopel to finish higher. So Amateur might need you to finish in the top 80%, Inter. might be %50, and Advanced might be %30 or something.
So a person could jump into one of these spot races, where we'll of course have set a minimum number of drivers that are needed for the race to count toward RFRs.
They have fun with our directly controlled and sanctioned spot races and hopefully gain some RFRs to get up in license. Sound cool?
After that, higher A-class licenses will require race wins as we already have it. Question about that though: will only race wins made after you have an Advanced license count, or will ones from before count to? I'm thinking the fore.
SOMETHING ELSE:
I also realized that bad drivers might sometimes need to be dropped in license. So drivers will have licenses taken away after they have at least three penalties handed to them. This will be tracked on the same sheet of results under " Penalty count".
We are throwing out license tests, but not in a way you'd think. This will be to effectively satisfy both types of racers that would want to participate in ORB sanctioned races. The racer that just wants to race. And the one who doesn't mind a challenge and taking a bit of time to do testing.
Now there will be two ways of going up in license: by doing races and performing well, or by opting to do a license time trial.
So here's how it works:
All the licenses will stay intact, but the regular way to rise up in rank will be by finishing within a certain percentage of races (this is to scale with number of participants in a race).
Every one starts off with a beginner license. In order to rise in rank you need to place within the top, say, 80% in at least two races in order to get to the next license, which is Amateur.
After that we'll set a new Race Finish Requirement or 'RFR' in order to move on to the license after amateur and so on. It's important to note that the race finish requirement percentage is figured with how many FINISHED, not how many started. This is to keep people that finish high in a race where most people disconnected from getting an RFR. There will also be a minimum race distance that must be met that'll be figured out in the future.
So for example, newly registered driver 'Bob' has just signed up and wants to start racing right away so he joins a series that allows beginner license holders. He finds out that he needs to finish in the top 80% of the finishers in order for the race to count as one RFR. He notes that ten people join so all he needs to do is finish in the top eight. He qualifies last and figures he has some work to do. He races cleanly and gets up to eighth! One person leaves the race so he now realizes he needs to fight for seventh place in order to get an RFR point. He passes for seventh on the last lap and feels like a champ because he realizes that he's now right on his way to an amateur license. ORB just made a fight for seventh place feel like a championship bout and I think that would be awesome.
I think this would, initially, solve the problem people see with drivers not wanting to test just to race. So it makes it so they just can. In the beginning it'll be fun because every one will start out at the same level. But if a new driver comes around much later on he probably won't want to start off at beginner so later on we'll open up the option of getting a higher license by testing for it through a simple testing procedure.
There will also be a side test that I'm making up. It's based entirely on imagery and will present the testing driver with a bunch of scenarios from a first-person driving perspective, sometimes third, where I'll illustrate a racing incident in the middle of it happening and the test will then ask, " What do you do in this situation?" and give him multiple choice questions.
This will be made to be an option for race organizers to use if they'd like to immediately take a new driver but they're not exactly sure that they're clean. This would take much less time then a 1 on 1 track demo to check for racing etiquette and should work just as well at identifying clean racers as long as we put everything we have into it to make sure it's thorough and correct.
The thing that changes here is that we will REALLY have to be on the ball about getting exact results from all participating race organizers. We'll have to be incredibly insistent on getting valid, timely and correct race results. A series won't be sanctioned unless we're completely confident in the organizer's ability to deliver clear and legit results every time. Penalties will also need to be sorted before they give us results. There's going to be a lot of factors that will deem a race to be RFR worthy and I'll draw up all those details soon if we want to go ahead with this system. ALL of the race results will be posted to a spreadsheet after they're confirmed in order to keep a complete archive of all events.
So, keep in mind all of those numbers will be tweaked but the main idea's what I'm after. What do you think? Good compromise?
EDIT:
I just realized that getting RFRs will be hard on regular ORB race series that have long race schedules. I don't want lots of people just popping in and out of lower level racing series just to get their RFRs, licenses and then leave (or maybe it might not be that bad... but anyway) so I thought of something kind of cool.
Sanctioned ORB spot races that run every week, maybe four times a week depending on whether we have someone dedicated enough to run them?
These races will act as yet another way to get your RFRs and with the scaling done well, it'll be really easy to make these races adaptable to different difficulties for higher license RFRs simply by requiring peopel to finish higher. So Amateur might need you to finish in the top 80%, Inter. might be %50, and Advanced might be %30 or something.
So a person could jump into one of these spot races, where we'll of course have set a minimum number of drivers that are needed for the race to count toward RFRs.
They have fun with our directly controlled and sanctioned spot races and hopefully gain some RFRs to get up in license. Sound cool?
After that, higher A-class licenses will require race wins as we already have it. Question about that though: will only race wins made after you have an Advanced license count, or will ones from before count to? I'm thinking the fore.
SOMETHING ELSE:
I also realized that bad drivers might sometimes need to be dropped in license. So drivers will have licenses taken away after they have at least three penalties handed to them. This will be tracked on the same sheet of results under " Penalty count".
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- 7,424
- I Hate Stalkers
- gogatrs
Love the idea Wardez. 👍
Sorry I haven't been on, I've had real racing commitments that I've had to "attend to."
But you guys are more than welcome to discuss while I'm not here.
I've been working on a job application form sort of thing on GoogleDocs, but it's been slow work since I'm using my iPod Touch 95% of the time.
Sorry I haven't been on, I've had real racing commitments that I've had to "attend to."
But you guys are more than welcome to discuss while I'm not here.
I've been working on a job application form sort of thing on GoogleDocs, but it's been slow work since I'm using my iPod Touch 95% of the time.
CodeRedR51
Premium
- 55,274
- United States
MUCH better than doing the timed tests. This is about 80% the way I wanted to do it in the first place. I think experience in racing to advance your license is a lot better idea. This is exactly how it's done in multiple forms of racing around the world. It's solid and proven. 👍
- 9,741
- Las Vegas UTC-8
- Wardez
- Wardez
Yeah Cam it is. Thanks RT, I'm glad you're liking it.
What we're gonna really need to be sticklers about is results. The database side I can do easily. It'll be pretty fun for me thought since I love stats.
Also to note: (things I'm randomly thinking about)
If someon's a beginner and they win a race, that's still just one RFR point of two you need to move up. We'll make things like this abundantly clear.
But if every one likes this then I'll draft out a complete outline over the next 24 hours so we can have a base to start discussing things like, " what's the best finish percentage number beginners need to get an RFR (race finish requirement) point?"
Stuff like that.
Also! To guys doing testing for license tests. We're still going to do it so don't worry, all your input will be put to use in deciding what the optional tests are going to be! Thanks again
What we're gonna really need to be sticklers about is results. The database side I can do easily. It'll be pretty fun for me thought since I love stats.
Also to note: (things I'm randomly thinking about)
If someon's a beginner and they win a race, that's still just one RFR point of two you need to move up. We'll make things like this abundantly clear.
But if every one likes this then I'll draft out a complete outline over the next 24 hours so we can have a base to start discussing things like, " what's the best finish percentage number beginners need to get an RFR (race finish requirement) point?"
Stuff like that.
Also! To guys doing testing for license tests. We're still going to do it so don't worry, all your input will be put to use in deciding what the optional tests are going to be! Thanks again
- 1,283
- GTP_FreakinWolfy
Dude. This is what I've been looking for for a license system. It makes me wonder why I didn't think of it myself!
I won't have an issue keeping track of stats in my series. I played many many years of baseball and as you may know, stats are half the game
This will prolly be the last I get to look t the thread before I get back from New York, so as a favor could one of you maybe save the most important highlights for me so that I won't have to read the plethora of pages that are sure to be posted in the next week or so?
I won't have an issue keeping track of stats in my series. I played many many years of baseball and as you may know, stats are half the game
This will prolly be the last I get to look t the thread before I get back from New York, so as a favor could one of you maybe save the most important highlights for me so that I won't have to read the plethora of pages that are sure to be posted in the next week or so?
CodeRedR51
Premium
- 55,274
- United States
What about putting a limit on the number of series they can run at one time (under the ORB banner) so that it's easier to keep track of for each driver?
Wardez
Just what I was going to say. 80% of results seemed a bit too easy.
I mentioned it a while ago and it was shot down or ignored.
- 9,741
- Las Vegas UTC-8
- Wardez
- Wardez
Just wanted to make sure that every one read my edits:
EDIT:
I just realized that getting RFRs will be hard on regular ORB race series that have long race schedules. I don't want lots of people just popping in and out of lower level racing series just to get their RFRs, licenses and then leave (or maybe it might not be that bad... but anyway) so I thought of something kind of cool.
Sanctioned ORB spot races that run every week, maybe four times a week depending on whether we have someone dedicated enough to run them?
These races will act as yet another way to get your RFRs and with the scaling done well, it'll be really easy to make these races adaptable to different difficulties for higher license RFRs simply by requiring peopel to finish higher. So Amateur might need you to finish in the top 80%, Inter. might be %50, and Advanced might be %30 or something.
So a person could jump into one of these spot races, where we'll of course have set a minimum number of drivers that are needed for the race to count toward RFRs.
They have fun with our directly controlled and sanctioned spot races and hopefully gain some RFRs to get up in license. Sound cool?
After that, higher A-class licenses will require race wins as we already have it. Question about that though: will only race wins made after you have an Advanced license count, or will ones from before count to? I'm thinking the fore.
SOMETHING ELSE:
I also realized that bad drivers might sometimes need to be dropped in license. So drivers will have licenses taken away after they have at least three penalties handed to them. This will be tracked on the same sheet of results under " Penalty count".
What do you all think about the ORB spot races. I personally love the idea and think it would be perfect for the system and just a lot of fun.
What I'm thinking now is that we should come up with a bunch of events, cars and tracks and such and just let the stewards running each spot race to pick whichever's more desirable at the moment.
Also, I'm thinking the races should be around 20-25 minutes? I think these could become really popular if done right. Then in the future we could make spot races that are only open to higher license holders making for some epic sure-clean action!
EDIT:
I just realized that getting RFRs will be hard on regular ORB race series that have long race schedules. I don't want lots of people just popping in and out of lower level racing series just to get their RFRs, licenses and then leave (or maybe it might not be that bad... but anyway) so I thought of something kind of cool.
Sanctioned ORB spot races that run every week, maybe four times a week depending on whether we have someone dedicated enough to run them?
These races will act as yet another way to get your RFRs and with the scaling done well, it'll be really easy to make these races adaptable to different difficulties for higher license RFRs simply by requiring peopel to finish higher. So Amateur might need you to finish in the top 80%, Inter. might be %50, and Advanced might be %30 or something.
So a person could jump into one of these spot races, where we'll of course have set a minimum number of drivers that are needed for the race to count toward RFRs.
They have fun with our directly controlled and sanctioned spot races and hopefully gain some RFRs to get up in license. Sound cool?
After that, higher A-class licenses will require race wins as we already have it. Question about that though: will only race wins made after you have an Advanced license count, or will ones from before count to? I'm thinking the fore.
SOMETHING ELSE:
I also realized that bad drivers might sometimes need to be dropped in license. So drivers will have licenses taken away after they have at least three penalties handed to them. This will be tracked on the same sheet of results under " Penalty count".
What do you all think about the ORB spot races. I personally love the idea and think it would be perfect for the system and just a lot of fun.
What I'm thinking now is that we should come up with a bunch of events, cars and tracks and such and just let the stewards running each spot race to pick whichever's more desirable at the moment.
Also, I'm thinking the races should be around 20-25 minutes? I think these could become really popular if done right. Then in the future we could make spot races that are only open to higher license holders making for some epic sure-clean action!
- 12,018
- Indianapolis
- BrandonW77
I like this idea a lot. I'd say most people just want to race and might not want to spend the extra time doing license "tests". This method just requires them to race! It would also be a good way for drivers to hone their skills in different environments, i.e. truck races, low hp races, race cars, etc. Kind of racing, driving school and license test all in one. Make the races open to anyone with a license, so even if somebody has their Amateur license they can still participate in a race so new-comers have experienced drivers to compete against. It also gives a chance for drivers with their license to get some practice in different environments.
An idea, maybe we could use some of the sanctioned leagues as samples for the spot races. For example, an Amateur license spot race could be a condensed version of a Capp Cup race with simple qualifying and a 20 minute race so drivers get a sampling of a structured series. For the Pro license spot race do Supercars or GT500 with the 4 lap live qualifying format, etc. Use the spot races to expose drivers to different elements of league racing, thus granting them license's on how they perform. There's a lot of flexibility with this plan so it allows us to change things up every once in a while to bring new elements and try different things. Plus, all it asks of the members is to race! 👍
- 12,018
- Indianapolis
- BrandonW77
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