Guns

  • Thread starter Talentless
  • 5,167 comments
  • 248,219 views

Which position on firearms is closest to your own?

  • I support complete illegality of civilian ownership

    Votes: 120 15.5%
  • I support strict control.

    Votes: 244 31.5%
  • I support moderate control.

    Votes: 164 21.2%
  • I support loose control.

    Votes: 81 10.5%
  • I oppose control.

    Votes: 139 17.9%
  • I am undecided.

    Votes: 27 3.5%

  • Total voters
    775
LSX
It comes down to this. Your saying that people are better off with rocks, knives, sticks and whatever else, than being armed with firearms to defend themselves with?

Well, talking about self defense.

Selling guns means selling them to everybody. First who is getting the gun are criminals of course cause it has something to do with their job. Seconds are crazy people cause you won't do well with a knife if your goal is to kill 30 or something people.

If guns are prohibited in some country, you deal on the streets with criminals armed by bare hands and sometimes knifes. Why don't buy a knife and defense himself?

Guns just escalate thing, they don't make you safer. Now you have a gun (maybe) and every criminal has a gun (for sure)
 
Well, that's all well and good, of course a fist fight is not life threatening (normally). However if someone is breaking into your house, or robbing the store your in and is trying to cause harm to people you love, or just innocent people, and doing so with a gun, then what? In my state If someone breaks into my house, car, or attempts to rob me, it's legal for me to shoot them regardless of if there intention to kill me or not. Just because they are using a knife, or are going to beat me with a base ball bat, does not mean I can't defend myself with a gun.

If guns were prohibited here in the States, criminals will still have guns, regardless of the law, they would rarely get their guns the legal way anyhow. I don't even think it's up for debate, they will one way or another procure firearms from once source or another. Crazy people will kill regardless of owning firearms or not, they will use knives, fire, vehicles, bombs, bats, tire irons, ropes, water, their own hands. Them having a gun won't change that. My having a firearm in my possession will. In most cases it's not required to gun down an attacker, but even if one time you need to use lethal force and do not have access to it, that could be your only way to go home alive.

If there are people in the world, they will disagree, wage war, steal, fight and do any number of horrible things. Guns exist, just like nuclear weapons, they can't be unmade now, if it was not guns, it would be rocks, if not that then fists. The fact that guns do exist means that sane law abiding people must also be armed, because insane criminals are.

Firearms are not even solely used for defense, I've never needed one to defend myself once. Thank God for that, I honestly hope I never do. But it's great fun to go to the range with the shot guns and blast clay pigeons for a few hours with a group of friends. Or just go and try and improve your shooting skills with target shooting. I've had so many great times, just out shooting targets, just relaxing with friends, hunting or any number of things.

Guns are very important, they don't make you any less safe than being unarmed. Especially in a country where criminals are armed and always will be. You can sit there and watch people be shot, or end the situation your self. The Police won't help you when they are five minutes away, then your life is in your hands. I want a firearm of some sort, you want a knife or your fists? That's fine your entitled to your opinion, but I'd never want to be confronted with a situation where I was limited in my ability to defend myself, or my government made a choice for me in how I'll be defending my self. I'd rather make that decision on my own. luckily, in the USA we do own guns, they can't take them from us if we obey the law, they can't change the law to make them illegal because we have guns to defend our rights, not just our safety. There are pro's and con's to everything, more people die from drugs and cars here in the states, so I'd say they are less dangerous than most things. That's my take.
 
Well, talking about self defense.

Selling guns means selling them to everybody. First who is getting the gun are criminals of course cause it has something to do with their job. Seconds are crazy people cause you won't do well with a knife if your goal is to kill 30 or something people.

If guns are prohibited in some country, you deal on the streets with criminals armed by bare hands and sometimes knifes. Why don't buy a knife and defense himself?

Guns just escalate thing, they don't make you safer. Now you have a gun (maybe) and every criminal has a gun (for sure)

Shame that doesn't actual match the real world isn't it.

Here in the UK legally owned handguns were outlawed over a decade ago, with the aim of making it harder to commit crimes, etc with firearms.

Take a guess what happened to the figures for crimes committed with firearms?

They have grown every year since the ban was put in place.

A law specifically designed to take guns off the streets has made things far worse, criminals will get guns regardless of if they are legal or not. All the change in the law did was remove guns from law abiding people, who are now no longer were able to defend homes, take part in sporting events or shot pistols as a hobby.

Its a daft country that forces the British Olympic pistol team to go to Switzerland to practice, but in which a pistol can be bought in a pub in just about any town or city.

Banning guns does not remove them from the equation at all.


Scaff
 
Well, talking about self defense.

Selling guns means selling them to everybody. First who is getting the gun are criminals of course cause it has something to do with their job. Seconds are crazy people cause you won't do well with a knife if your goal is to kill 30 or something people.

If guns are prohibited in some country, you deal on the streets with criminals armed by bare hands and sometimes knifes. Why don't buy a knife and defense himself?

Guns just escalate thing, they don't make you safer. Now you have a gun (maybe) and every criminal has a gun (for sure)

I'm stepping back in since the direction of this has gone back to the original topic.

Getting a gun in the US isn't difficult, legally or otherwise. Banning them at this point would just leave only criminals with guns... we are a much larger nation with much easier to cross borders compared to the UK or New Zealand, regulating smuggling is a more complicated task.

But there are a few towns across the US that have mandated having a gun. And crime has, on average, massively dropped in those regions. The fact is most criminals don't want to break into a home when they have a good reason to believe there is a gun inside.

As LSX pointed out, people would find other ways to kill each other. If I recall, stabbings have risen quite a bit in the UK since the banning of guns.

And guns have non-combat uses. Such as hunting, which is fairly popular American past time. And a very practical one for many people, as many families I know do save quite a bit buy going out and getting a deer during the season. Yes, you can argue they can procure food at the supermarket, but if that infrastructure collapses, now you have a very realistic need for hunting equipment.

And finally, they really are fun to use. There is just something satisfying on a primal level about pulling the trigger on a shot gun and watching a pumpkin explode across your yard. :dopey:
 
Indeed. And what happens when we reverse otago's "theory of weapon sales"?

otago
Selling guns means selling them to everybody. First who is getting the gun are criminals of course cause it has something to do with their job. Seconds are crazy people cause you won't do well with a knife if your goal is to kill 30 or something people.

notago
Banning guns means banning them from everybody. Last who is losing the gun are criminals of course cause it has something to do with their job. Seconds are crazy people cause you won't do well with a knife if your goal is to kill 30 or something people.

So you end up with weapons only in the hands of nutters and criminals. Oh snap.
 
Shame that doesn't actual match the real world isn't it.

Here in the UK legally owned handguns were outlawed over a decade ago, with the aim of making it harder to commit crimes, etc with firearms.

Take a guess what happened to the figures for crimes committed with firearms?

They have grown every year since the ban was put in place.

I don't know anything about UK. If you have a country with borders and customs, it's almost impossible to import guns illegally. Guns slowly washed away. It could take 10 or maybe 20 years until old guns will get out from rotation.

If the country has no borders like EU and everybody just goes everywhere without any control, it's a different story
 
The UK is not part of the Schengen Agreement area so there is no freedom of movement between it and EU states. It's also a group of islands, separated by at least 22 miles from the mainland.

So we do have borders and Customs. And private ownership of almost every kind of firearm has been outlawed since 1997 - between the 10 and 20 year period you state.

And yet we still have guns in the UK in the possession of criminals and nutters. And gun crime has risen by 100% in the period between the ban and now.
 
LSX
If guns were prohibited here in the States, criminals will still have gun

I'm not sure the majority of murders are related to criminals. Criminals usually don't kill average citizens, they want money. Any murder means you are in serious trouble, cause police has a priority about murders. They don't care a lot about stolen used car or burglary worth 500$, but killing is a different story.

The majority of murders are related to persons who know each other and relatives.

So we do have borders and Customs. And private ownership of almost every kind of firearm has been outlawed since 1997 - between the 10 and 20 year period you state.

And yet we still have guns in the UK in the possession of criminals and nutters. And gun crime has risen by 100% in the period between the ban and now.

So from where the guns come from?

In countries where the guns are prohibited it's almost impossible to get a hand gun. Even professional gang killers often use some self made crap
 
I don't know anything about UK. If you have a country with borders and customs, it's almost impossible to import guns illegally. Guns slowly washed away. It could take 10 or maybe 20 years until old guns will get out from rotation.
That is quite frankly laughable, simply put not one piece of what you have said here matches the situation here in the UK.

Handguns were banned over 10 years ago, legaly owning firearms of any description is very, very difficult.

Yet despite a virtual ban on firearms, and being an island, with a strong border and customs system, not one bit of what you have said has happened.

Illegal gun ownership has skyrocketed and gun crime rises dramatically year on year.

So I have to ask that you stop posting this ill-informed, inaccurate drivel.



So from where the guns come from?

In countries where the guns are prohibited it's almost impossible to get a hand gun. Even professional gang killers often use some self made crap
Ummm, these criminals, may you know smuggle them into the country illegally. Its not as if criminals are, you know, adverse to doing that kind of thing.

Read - http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2008/...rs-shows-ineffectiveness-of-gun-control-laws/


Scaff
 
I'm not sure the majority of murders are related to criminals.

They all are. Murder is a criminal offence...

So from where the guns come from?

Until everything in the universe is shipped in giant, perspex boats and planes, who knows?

If only criminals were open and up-front about where they get illegal things like guns, drugs and horse porn, life would be much easier, for the police at least. Those mischievous little rascals, eh?


In countries where the guns are prohibited it's almost impossible to get a hand gun. Even professional gang killers often use some self made crap

Guns are prohibited in the UK. It's not impossible to get a hand gun - far from it.
 
So you can buy one?

Apparently. Just like I could go buy some Cocaine if I wanted to. Illegally.

The US has borders and customs and pours a ton of money into trying to prevent the smuggling of drugs into the country. Guess how well that works?

I'll answer it for you. It doesn't. I can easily get most illegal or controlled substances with very little effort... and I'm in a relatively small, rural, college town.
 
Guns are not drugs. You can by drugs, no problems, try to buy guns now on streets.

Come to Detroit, buying a handgun on the street is about as easy as buying cocaine. Even in the small little suburban town I'm in, I bet I could secure an illegal, stolen handgun pretty easily. I'd just have to ask the less that reputable people I know.
 
Guns are not drugs. You can by drugs, no problems, try to buy guns now on streets.

In lager cities, you often go to the same person for both...

But you missed my actual point, which was despite controlled borders, somehow people get, literally, hundreds to thousands of pounds of Cocaine into the US. If they can bring over crates of Cocaine, what keeps them from bringing in crates of guns? You're argument that it is nearly impossible to smuggle in guns is invalidated by the rate of which illegal drugs are smuggled.

I don't see how you can actually think that drugs are somehow much easier to get into a country than guns. The distribution networks are related. It is your basic black market type deal.
 
Guns are not drugs. You can by drugs, no problems...

In this discussion, guns and drugs are remarkably similar. Drugs have been illegal in the US for decades. We have border partrol, customs, FBI, local police, all looking for drugs 24/7, yet how effective have those laws been in eliminating drugs from our streets? The answer? California is about ready to legalize pot (it's coming up for vote). That's how mainstream it is.

Guns are very similar. It's an an object that you'd like to ban and hope would go away (magically vanish) after enough time. But given decades of drug bans and gun bans in many countries, that just doesn't pan out.

What conclusion are we left with? Gun laws disarm law abiding citizens.
 
Never heard of Detroit being in UK.

In US you can buy handgun at flea market legally, not surprisingly you can buy guns on the street

Doesn't matter, all big cities are essentially the same. You have easier access to illegal things because a lot of people live there and even more pass through their. Show me one big city that does have a seedy underbelly to it. I know London has a shady side to it, I'm sure you could score a handgun there without much issue.

And look at what others have said, they basically explained that guns and drugs come from similar sources.
 
Never heard of Detroit being in UK.

It wouldn't really matter which city in the UK you pick either, legal weapons or not.

London, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Leeds, Glasgow or wherever.

Given the right amount of cash & the inclination or need to acquire an illegal handgun you could walk into a pub in the rougher parts of any of those places and ask around for someone that knows where to acquire a shooter.
It's a risk that they'd take, not to be sold-out by an undercover police officer or police informant, but criminals aren't well known for being conservative when it comes to taking risks and breaking the law, which is why they're criminals!!!

Basically if you've enough cash and a lack of morals virtually anything can be had, but the cash is probably the most important factor as criminals don't tend to do traceable credit transactions (unless they're really dumb, in which case they get caught!!!)
 
Wait, what? Are we just going to link to people who have killed people now?

Well, so when I lived in pretty small town one ex postal lady shoot 7 people like next street. Then I went here and just driving around the beach see the memorial talking about local killing spree, 14 people killed.

I didn't read it somewhere in internet, it just happens around. Means this crazy shootouts happen too often when people care a lot about their own safety.

So you bought a gun, everything is fine now, safe and sound. Then you go to work and somebody put the bullet in your head cause this somebody also bought a gun. Very ironically I say
 
Well, so when I lived in pretty small town one ex postal lady shoot 7 people like next street. Then I went here and just driving around the beach see the memorial talking about local killing spree, 14 people killed.

I didn't read it somewhere in internet, it just happens around. Means this crazy shootouts happen too often when people care a lot about their own safety.

So you bought a gun, everything is fine now, safe and sound. Then you go to work and somebody put the bullet in your head cause this somebody also bought a gun. Very ironically I say

I don't think you understand the meaning of irony. It would be ironic if the person had their own gun used to kill them, if they had bought the gun for personal safety.

You do realize if it isn't a gun, it is a knife, or a rock, or a baseball bat, or cross bow, or god knows what else? It is like you think the only thing people can use to kill each other is a gun...
 
Well, so when I lived in pretty small town one ex postal lady shoot 7 people like next street. Then I went here and just driving around the beach see the memorial talking about local killing spree, 14 people killed.

I didn't read it somewhere in internet, it just happens around. Means this crazy shootouts happen too often when people care a lot about their own safety.

So you bought a gun, everything is fine now, safe and sound. Then you go to work and somebody put the bullet in your head cause this somebody also bought a gun. Very ironically I say

Yeah, and for anyone who has died in a car accident. Very ironic. They bought a car to get to work on time and someone else bought a car too and they hit them. LOL IRONY!!!1 They aren't getting to work on time are they?


(sorry if that's offensive to anyone - just how you have to approach this guy)
 
Well, so when I lived in pretty small town one ex postal lady shoot 7 people like next street. Then I went here and just driving around the beach see the memorial talking about local killing spree, 14 people killed.

I didn't read it somewhere in internet, it just happens around. Means this crazy shootouts happen too often when people care a lot about their own safety.

So you bought a gun, everything is fine now, safe and sound. Then you go to work and somebody put the bullet in your head cause this somebody also bought a gun. Very ironically I say


The town I work in (and am actually typing this reply form right now) is Hungerford, it too has its own past, one result of which was the tightening of gun ownership laws in the UK (it wasn't the final reason why handguns were banned - but very representative).

As has already been clearly explained to you (with plenty of links to back it up), the result of both the tighter regulation and then ban was NOT a reduction in gun crime or firearms offenses, but a dramatic and steep rise in them.

To be blunt is neither answers the questions you have been asked, nor does it support your point of view.

This 'new' direction you have attempted to take the thread in, is yet again a distraction. It allows you to avoid answering direct questions and amounts to little more than spamming.

More so, its a pattern you seem to repeat across a number of threads when you don't like the direction a discussion is going or you don't want to answer questions you have been asked.

Do it again and I will issue you with an infraction for spamming.


Scaff
 
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