Guns

[LSX]

Yeah for personal defense, but that's fine with me. I mean it's not like a 9mm bullet has never killed anyone, they are plenty effective. I can swing either way as far as 9mm vs .45 or even .40. I thought it was a good deal for the XD compact it all, 9MM does not bother me. A baddie will be just as dead with shots to center mass from a 9mm or a .45 with proper loadings for both.

 

[otago]

Yeah for personal defense, but that's fine with me. I mean it's not like a 9mm bullet has never killed anyone, they are plenty effective.

US police doesn't use 9 mm except +P+, famous 1986 FBI Miami shootout played a big role in this shift. The criminal guy got two bullets at the very beginning (one caused a death injury) and still could manage wipe out the whole FBI team.

Never happened with .40 SW or .356 SIG. There are plenty of guys got killed with 0.22 LR, the only problem many of them were dying like half an hour from bleeding and could even run. This is a lot of time to return fire

 

[LSX]

I read an article somewhere a while back that said, if you shoot a home invader in the head even, you can expect at most several seconds where you can still be in danger of being shot your self. Kinda odd, I don't want to find out whether it's true or not Though I don't recall them talking about using slugs and 00 buck for home defense either

 

[Azuremen]

For home defense, I am still in favor of the pump action shot gun. It sounds intimidating as hell, and with a short barrel, the spread won't require the best of aim to knock down an intruder.

 

[otago]

A baddie will be just as dead with shots to center mass from a 9mm or a .45 with proper loadings for both.

People don't die too easy from handgun bullets, doesn't matter 9 mm or 0.45.

The difference is that .45 hollow point will provide enough shock to switch the offender off for some time.

 

[LSX]

I'm pretty sure a shot or two to center mass or above and it's over majority of the time unless medical attention is quickly rendered. Especially with a HV hollowpoint to an un-armored attacker. What if that handgun were a .500 S&W Magnum? I would expect them to be ripped in half with a full power loading. Okay, not in half, but severely damaged, like missing body parts... Regardless, incapacitated is as good as dead. I think the attack will stop once they are missing the rear of their skull, or having vital organs cease to work... We would not be carrying or using handguns if they were not effective.

 

[Tornado]

For home defense, I am still in favor of the pump action shot gun. It sounds intimidating as hell, and with a short barrel, the spread won't require the best of aim to knock down an intruder.

And no penetration.

 

[Eric.]

And no penetration.

Alternate the load with some slugs?



Otago: Why am I bothering with .22LR? Well, it seems to go through paper just fine, and 375 for $12 beats the **** out of 50 for $18 or so for 9mm, or worse for a more useful round, as decided by you.

And honestly, if someone is breaking into your house just to rob you, and you start firing .22LRs at them, its not like they're just going to walk right up to you and jerk the gun out of your hand...After a couple good hits I'm sure they'll decide to take off.

Same goes for a 9mm. It might not incapacitate with the first or second shot. But they will stop momentarily. If you're still in danger, you keep shooting.

But as of last night I think I've decided on a Beretta 92FS. For not much other reason than the military replaced the 1911 with them.

 

[Tornado]

Alternate the load with some slugs?

I was referring to it as a positive (unless I'm misreading you?). Any shotgun shell is going to stop a would-be burglar, but birdshot (and maybe buckshot, though I wouldn't risk it) isn't going to go through him and/or walls and put others in danger. 9mm pistol rounds very much could (.45 rounds probably wouldn't, being slower and larger, but they still might be able to).

 

[otago]

Otago: Why am I bothering with .22LR? Well, it seems to go through paper just fine, and 375 for $12 beats the **** out of 50 for $18 or so for 9mm, or worse for a more useful round, as decided by you.

It's cheap but not good for training. If you shoot only 0.22 don't expect you will hit something with .40

50:50 split is ok, but not when you shoot on range only .22 and carry 0.357 Magnum

 

[LSX]

The BOX OF TRUTH says Buckshot will over penetrate, as well as rip through walls with very little problem. Birdshot should not be used for defense, it will remove skin and cause what ER doctors call "A bloody rat hole", they may be dead, likely just maimed for life. I have mine loaded with Horniday TAP 12ga 00 buck 1600fps, specifically designed for personal defense without over penetrating. Normal 00 will work just as well, but can over penetrate more easily, I'm sure the TAP will also, but hopefully not to the same extent. I hear No.4 Buck is even better because of the greater pellet count, just don't mistake it the Buck for Bird.

Google Box Of Truth, the guy has tested a massive amount of rounds on how they penetrate walls, cars, steel, clothes, bullet proof materials, you name it, he's shot it through or into whatever you want to see.

Eric, I've heard people complain about odd ergonomics of the Beretta, I can't personally vouch for them, 1911 is the most comfortable pistol I've ever handled, if it's anything like that, it will be fine. But rent one and check it out first, again though everyone has different taste, so I can't comment on what's really best for you, just what I've heard.

Otago, if my training with my .177 break barrel pellet rifle will help me with me trigger pull and breathing techniques, and transfer fully to a .308 bolt action, I'm positive a .22 will transfer to shooting any other handgun. More so, Eric said he owns a rifle, not a handgun, he will learn on his whatever caliber handgun, if he has not already learned beforehand, practice is practice though, IMO anyways. Once you can handle a full power pistol, you won't forget, practicing with a lower power caliber will save you money and fatigue, doesn't everyone learn with .22's? I know I did. Even dry firing will help you practice, your not even actually firing anything.

An example, if I go to the range, my rifle has a 10 round magazine, a box of 7.62 brass cased ammo is roughly 18-20$. That's pretty much 1$ per trigger pull, and that's just two magazines worth of ammunition. A good days practice for me and my rifle will be more than 50$ not including my gas to get to the range and lunch. If I was practicing with the .22, a box of 500 is 8-10$, I'm not even going to do the math, but it's measured cents, not dollars per trigger pull, the only thing missing is recoil, which with an auto loading rifle is just meh anyways. It's even more expensive to take out a bolt rifle, 1.50-2.50+ per trigger pull. That's why people practice with a smaller less expensive caliber, it's cost effective and works.

 

[Keef]

Same goes for a 9mm. It might not incapacitate with the first or second shot. But they will stop momentarily. If you're still in danger, you keep shooting.

Right, a 9mm hollow will make them go "wtf was that".

Speaking of stopping power, I've always been curious how people can "die" instantly from being shot in the abdomen. Apparently they don't. Instead they just get knocked out, basically. If the shot is not to the brain, what kills a person? Bleeding? Trauma?

Either way, it's always a good idea to keep shooting until the intruder until you're satisfied that he's dead.

 

[otago]

Speaking of stopping power, I've always been curious how people can "die" instantly from being shot in the abdomen. Apparently they don't. Instead they just get knocked out, basically.

This is easy. Police defines good stopping power when no return fire registered in gunfire accidents. US police has plenty of statistics about shootouts obviously. It doesn't mean just stop the guy, but make him unable to shoot back

That's why they don't use 9 mm

 

[LSX]

HV 9mm hollow points will easily stop a person cold, and keep them that way. Plenty of Police departments use 9mm, even our military does. 9mm is a plenty effective round for unarmored people. .45 is even better, but they both get the job done. I think the argument that 9mm is an infective round and that anything starting with a .4X is the be all end all of personal defense is just BS. People can and do survive both, people survive shooting themselves in the face with Shotguns and .38's, there is a chance you can survive lot's of bad things. Most of the time however, shots on center mass or above are going to incapacitate or kill an intruder or attacker if it were a 9mm. Why would people bother with the 9mm if it didn't work? It's just not true.

Will a round nose 9mm in standard pressure be as effective as a .45 hollow point or round nose in it's standard pressure? No. But a hollow point 9mm in a high pressure loading will be at least as effective as a standard power .45 (which is plenty effective.) Of course .45 loaded hot will do a better job than the hottest 9mm, but I really don't think the guy being shot will feel better that you used 9mm, their chances are low for living a normal life without severe medical issues.

I dunno, I'm not trying to argue that 9mm is better than a .45, just that the 9mm is plenty effective at what it was designed to do. If you carry the correct ammo for the intended application, you should not have a problem ever. I'd hope not to ever even need to use it. If you want to argue for something being infective for a clean take down, look to .32ACP or .380 Auto, something with much less power out of a shorter barrel. 💡

 

[otago]

HV 9mm hollow points will easily stop a person cold, and keep them that way. Plenty of Police departments use 9mm

None of US police departments use 9 mm except double loaded +P+.

I'm still not sure what is the problem. Why to buy 9 mm if you can buy more effective and proven on streets .40 SW or .357 SIG? They don't have much more recoil and it's around same as 9 mm +P+

First you worry about your safety so much to carry the gun all around, and second you give bad guy a chance for some unknown reason.

 

[Keef]

First you worry about your safety so much to carry the gun all around, and second you give bad guy a chance for some unknown reason.

First you tell us that there's no reason anyone should carry guns around, and then you tell us that we're doing it wrong?

 

[Solid Lifters]

First you tell us that there's no reason anyone should carry guns around, and then you tell us that we're doing it wrong?

Just stop reading his posts. He hasn't got one thing correct.

 

[otago]

First you tell us that there's no reason anyone should carry guns around, and then you tell us that we're doing it wrong?

There are some extremely sensitive people who just can't think about anything but danger everywhere. So those people like carrying the gun, it just make them feel safe, that's all.

If I am goingt into situation when the gun can be handy (the real one, not just because I afraid dark or something like this), I will have the best and a spare one as well.

I already mentioned FBI Miami shootout

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

2 FBI agent were killed and 5 severely injured just because 9 mm bullet stoped one inch before fugitive heart, .40 SW would kill him instantly and everybody would walk away. And criminal got another 4-5 bullets which didn't stop him. Also in this single accident no less than two FBI agent were shoot just because they didn't have spare gun.

That were seven FBI trained agent, and the only problem was they gave a chance to this criminal.

 

[Scaff]

There are some extremely sensitive people who just can't think about anything but danger everywhere. So those people like carrying the gun, it just make them feel safe, that's all.

If I am goingt into situation when the gun can be handy (the real one, not just because I afraid dark or something like this), I will have the best and a spare one as well.

I already mentioned FBI Miami shootout

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

2 FBI agent were killed and 5 severely injured just because 9 mm bullet stoped one inch before fugitive heart, .40 SW would kill him instantly and everybody would walk away. And criminal got another 4-5 bullets which didn't stop him. Also in this single accident no less than two FBI agent were shoot just because they didn't have spare gun.

That were seven FBI trained agent, and the only problem was they gave a chance to this criminal.

Will you please stop posting utter 🤬.

For a start the LAPD still list 9mm on its list of approved rounds and the 92F is a pistol still in use to this day....

While the Glock 22 .40 caliber is now issued to recruits, the Beretta 92 in 9mm is still seen in many holsters in L.A. Once off probation, officers may choose to purchase another duty pistol from an approved list of handguns in 9mm, .40 or .45. Authorized manufacturers are Glock, Smith & Wesson and Beretta.

Source - http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Guns+of+the+LAPD

Oh and the NYPD still approve the S&W 5946 (9mm again) as an on-duty issue sidearm.



I also do love how your link to the Miami situation covers a lot more bases that just the use of 9mm ammo.


To start one of the other main factors involved was that one of the 'bad buys' was using a Ruger Mini-14, which fired around a 1/3 of the total rounds in the shoot-out and the FBI did not have suitable body-armour to protect against. The use of .357 Mag revolvers was also cited as a major issue, as they were slow to reload, and finally the lack of shot-guns issued to the FBI team was an important factor.

Of the changes to FBI S.O.P. as a result of the Miami shootout, the use of a larger caliber pistol round was only one of many changes, one could argue that the switch to only using semi-autos was as big a change.

You also fail to mention that the 9mm round that stopped and inch from the suspects heart had already penetrated his arm, thus reducing its overall penetration, had that not been the case it could well have been fatal. In addition the same guy took a number of .357 mag round (including one to the face) before being killed.

Misrepresentation of the facts such as this is going to land you in trouble here very soon, please stop massaging information to suit your own point of view, and do it now.

Scaff

 

[Eric.]

First you tell us that there's no reason anyone should carry guns around, and then you tell us that we're doing it wrong?

Nice.

 

[Joel]

Will you please stop posting utter 🤬.

For a start the LAPD still list 9mm on its list of approved rounds and the 92F is a pistol still in use to this day....


Source - http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Guns+of+the+LAPD

Oh and the NYPD still approve the S&W 5946 (9mm again) as an on-duty issue sidearm.



I also do love how your link to the Miami situation covers a lot more bases that just the use of 9mm ammo.


To start one of the other main factors involved was that one of the 'bad buys' was using a Ruger Mini-14, which fired around a 1/3 of the total rounds in the shoot-out and the FBI did not have suitable body-armour to protect against. The use of .357 Mag revolvers was also cited as a major issue, as they were slow to reload, and finally the lack of shot-guns issued to the FBI team was an important factor.

Of the changes to FBI S.O.P. as a result of the Miami shootout, the use of a larger caliber pistol round was only one of many changes, one could argue that the switch to only using semi-autos was as big a change.

You also fail to mention that the 9mm round that stopped and inch from the suspects heart had already penetrated his arm, thus reducing its overall penetration, had that not been the case it could well have been fatal. In addition the same guy took a number of .357 mag round (including one to the face) before being killed.

Misrepresentation of the facts such as this is going to land you in trouble here very soon, please stop massaging information to suit your own point of view, and do it now.

Scaff

:golfclap:

 

[GTsail]

I recently saw most of this CNBC special investigation about the Remington 700 Series rifles:

Remington-700-Series Rifle-CNBC Investigation

It seems that some (maybe 1%) of these rifles will discharge a round sometimes even if the trigger is not pulled. It seems to be a problem with how the trigger and safety mechanism was designed. The TV program seems to imply that many gun owners have complained to Remington about this to no avail, for quite a few years. Is this common knowledge or something that Remington has done an effective job of hiding/ignoring for years?

Did anyone else see this TV show?

I also found this hunting forum from 2004 that was talking about this issue:

Georgia Outdoor News: re: Remington+700

It also seems that CBS News did a story on this back in 2001:

CBS News Story about Remington 700

GTsail

 

[Solid Lifters]

I know of it, but didn't watch. I know all about the problem. I own a 700 SPS in .25-06 and the first thing I did with it was replace the trigger. A lot of people know the trigger that comes with this rifle is crap.

It's bad to hear for Remington. This could cause them a lot of problems. They recently had to recall their 597 rifles in .17HMR because of troublem with them blowing up. Same for the Remington ammo in this caliber.

They just launched a new .45 Colt pistol model that is fantastic from what I've read. I hope that can make them some money to handle any recall with the 700's.

 

[GTsail]

....I own a 700 SPS in .25-06 and the first thing I did with it was replace the trigger. A lot of people know the trigger that comes with this rifle is crap....

I'm glad you've replaced the trigger, if you own one of these rifles, since that's whats wrong with these rifles.👍 I think that Remington should be a bit more pro-active in recommending that it would be wise to have the trigger mechanism replaced on most of these rifles.

These 700 Series rifles have a "Walker" trigger system that was designed by "Mike Walker" back in 1946/47. The TV program actually interviewed Mike Walker (who is about 90), and Mr Walker said that he knew about some issues with his trigger and had recommended some design changes to Remington back in 1948, but these changes were not implemented.

It does seem that Remington introduced a "X-Mark Pro" trigger in 2007 for the 700 Series rifles, so new rifles should no longer have this inadvertant discharge issue, but Remington has done no widespread trigger replacement/recall on all the old rifles.

Respectfully,
GTsail

 

[Bram Turismo]

If the shot is not to the brain, what kills a person? Bleeding? Trauma?

I don't think you need a shot to the brain to die quickly. I imagine if you have a severe internal bleeding you won't wake up from a knock-out. I think I've once seen a documentary on National Geographic or Discovery how gun shots can fatally wound people, but it's all so long ago I hardly remember any of it.

 

[Kneedragger]

Heres my target rig. I have 3 spare barrels, many extra firing pins/blocks/springs, and almost every other part as a spare. I never considered it a self defense thing, but I liked trying for beer cans or clay pigeons set in the berm at 100yds, offhand. At that distance the iron sights are just too big, so having a 2MOA dot really helps a ton.

 

[jswilli1]

Heres my target rig. I have 3 spare barrels, many extra firing pins/blocks/springs, and almost every other part as a spare. I never considered it a self defense thing, but I liked trying for beer cans or clay pigeons set in the berm at 100yds, offhand. At that distance the iron sights are just too big, so having a 2MOA dot really helps a ton.

Nice! We go out shooting in a nearby Arroyo with various toys. .22's are alot of fun and cheap to shoot. I have a nine shot .22 revolver that I like to target practice with. My best shots were at a hanging phone book at 135yds with open sites. We buy the bulk boxes of .22 and they tend to vary from shot to shot which makes it interesting. I have since retired my .22 after my purchase of a .45 Cal Springfield Armory M1911 Target pistol in Black Stainless, this is also my CCW pistol.

 

[tyl0r_r]

What about protection from our own government?

You really think that if your government really wanted you, having a gun in your house would do anything but (assuming you use it) elevate the situation to the point where you get killed and mentioned on the news?

... In my perfect world nobody would have a gun. That's not going to happen, but I'm still for gun control. But if you want to kill someone just buy a flare gun for your boat. Making guns illegal outright probably wouldn't solve the problem completely.

 

[Kneedragger]

Nice! We go out shooting in a nearby Arroyo with various toys. .22's are alot of fun and cheap to shoot..

Thanks. My real passion was shooting steel. I got the layouts from the Steel Challenge competition and had some targets fabricated by a local welder. I used this same .22 for it, but I have like 15 magazines and an electronic shot timer.

God that was a hoot. The stage called Smoke N Burn takes around 2 seconds to put shots on 5 targets, and the shot timer never lies. And my double taps are PDQ as well. Its rad. And cheap

..you mentioned arroyo? Dude do you live in NM? (at the risk of geo-profiling)
EDIT: you live in Rio Rancho

If you ever come north give me a holler. I have about 10 bricks just sitting around with nothing to do.

 

[Joel]

You really think that if your government really wanted you, having a gun in your house would do anything but (assuming you use it) elevate the situation to the point where you get killed and mentioned on the news?

... In my perfect world nobody would have a gun. That's not going to happen, but I'm still for gun control. But if you want to kill someone just buy a flare gun for your boat. Making guns illegal outright probably wouldn't solve the problem completely.

I already posted this example, how are the weak, old, and young (kids) going to defend themselves from strong assailants? The problem is that not everybody has the ability to defend themselves with their bare hands. Guns are the great equalizer, a 20 year old 5'6" 120 lb girl is toast if she's up against a 6'3 215 lb man assailant. That girl pulls a gun from her purse, either the assailant runs, or thinks he's stronger than the gun and gets killed.


In my perfect world, everyone who wants to have a gun would have one, and concealed carry permits would be allowed.