Has Forza 3 suppressed you appetite for GT5?

[tlongman]

YES. To be quite honest I think it is one of the best racing games of all time if not the best. GT5 will kick its a$$ but for the time being Forza 3 is suiting me just fine.

 

[TBR 427]

What would you do, then? Have the car flip, and then just re-appear transparent back on the track? There's no way to accurate way to model rolling a car back over in a game unless you just let the car sit there and call it "Game Over".

I thought that's what they said they would do at E3, with the demonstration of the SL65 on that little racetrack where he launched the cars off two walls and had to rewind 5 times to get it right?

I mean seriously, if you've done something to launch your car into the air and have it land on it's roof, it's not going to be moving any time soon. If the damage model was more than just scratches and painted on dents you'd see this.

 

[myke6699]

I don't know exactly when the work started on GT5 but it's probably around the time PS3 was made available which was at the end of 2006. Let's say late 2006/early 2007 which is a mere 6 months prior to FM2's release. PD has stated that all the codes from GT4 was thrown out and that GT5 is based on a totally new codes and engine. I would also assume that the work on FM2 was started after FM release and around the time the 360 hit the market which was near the end of 2005, a full year before PS3 was made available. And I would also assume because of the move to a new console, that Turn10 took the same route as PD and that FM2 is based on a new code and engine. Since FM3 is also running on the same generation of console and despite a few upgrades and changes, for most part, it involves considerably less work: the physics engine and the AI engine are essentially the same (360hz), the track assets are quite alike and since both games run at the same resolution, the only modification to the car/environment modeling involves the upgrade in the amount of polygons. There are other changes- the UI, the gameplay etc.

So the way I see it: if both FM3 and GT5 are the culmination of the work/effort that T10 and PD took (with FM2 and Prologue being precursors), respectively since the introduction of the current generation of console, it has taken T10 around 4 years (2006-2009) to get FM3 to what it is now. And when and if GT5 is released on March 31, 2010, it would've taken PD the same amount of time (2007-2010). Of course, this is mostly based on each of the console's release date. I find that to be a more relevant date to each of the game's development time especially considering the move to the current console(s) and more so than the release date of either GT4 or FM2.

 

[McLaren]

I thought that's what they said they would do at E3, with the demonstration of the SL65 on that little racetrack where he launched the cars off two walls and had to rewind 5 times to get it right?

I mean seriously, if you've done something to launch your car into the air and have it land on it's roof, it's not going to be moving any time soon. If the damage model was more than just scratches and painted on dents you'd see this.

If you think that's as far as the damage model goes, then you haven't seen the whole damage model....

 

[Devedander]

I thought that's what they said they would do at E3, with the demonstration of the SL65 on that little racetrack where he launched the cars off two walls and had to rewind 5 times to get it right?

I mean seriously, if you've done something to launch your car into the air and have it land on it's roof, it's not going to be moving any time soon. If the damage model was more than just scratches and painted on dents you'd see this.

I think you don't really understand what you are talking about...

First off, it's not a physics glitch, it's a purpose built function being missused and then being labled as a glitch. Ever play a multiplayer game where you have to pick up a downed team mate? Ever let go of the button during the getting up process to have your teamate fall back down again? Try Left 4 Dead, pick up a team mate and half way through let go of the button, repeat. That's not a glitch, it's how it's built and it's included so that when you are playing a multiplayer game online or something you don't get flipped first lap and have to sit there the remaining race or quit out. It's a gameplay mechanic to keep the game playable and enjoyable, just like how your driver doesn't die from high speed impacts is there to keep the game within reason for most people to enjoy.


Secondly, the damage engine allows for a lot more than scratches and dents, parts actually fall off, and as reported by T10, if you have mechanical damage turned on, rolling your car will wreak havoc on its driveability.

I honestly have to say I don't think you have played or even investigated in much depth what you are talking about...

 

[TBR 427]

I think you don't really understand what you are talking about...

First off, it's not a physics glitch, it's a purpose built function being missused and then being labled as a glitch. Ever play a multiplayer game where you have to pick up a downed team mate? Ever let go of the button during the getting up process to have your teamate fall back down again? Try Left 4 Dead, pick up a team mate and half way through let go of the button, repeat. That's not a glitch, it's how it's built and it's included so that when you are playing a multiplayer game online or something you don't get flipped first lap and have to sit there the remaining race or quit out. It's a gameplay mechanic to keep the game playable and enjoyable, just like how your driver doesn't die from high speed impacts is there to keep the game within reason for most people to enjoy.


Secondly, the damage engine allows for a lot more than scratches and dents, parts actually fall off, and as reported by T10, if you have mechanical damage turned on, rolling your car will wreak havoc on its driveability.

I honestly have to say I don't think you have played or even investigated in much depth what you are talking about...

Yes, I have played a LOT of L4D and F3.

No, I do not believe, or have any reason to believe the turtle roll-back-over is just another function added onto the physics engine to let people continue. Quite the contrary, in fact. T10 has shown a lack of polish with body movement in it's games; from the silky smooth wheelies and landings, to the floaty body of the R14 Audi and GT-One on the ring, to the dead flat drifting of the land rover and the bouncing everythings in F2 it shows that somewhere they're made some shortcuts and now that the cars can get into situations where the wheels aren't touching those shortcuts have nowhere to hide.

Yes I know that the 'simulation' (ad I use that term VERY loosely) damage will have some parts worsen after an impact. But the fact is, the cars STILL drive and drive unrealistically well after an impact, and after a heavy impact that would reduce every single car in real life to scrap, they're still going strong enough to lumber around some more.

But on a more literal level, I was talking about the damage model itself, as in the mode of the cars. A scratched and removed bumper after a 100mph head on into a cliff isn't right, and you know this. You (should) also know that a severe rollover will actually cause some, you know, actual deformation, yes?

Whole ends of cars should be disappearing, pillars should be crumpled; mechanical damage should be more than just something your local mechanic could repair; and that's what I expect from SIMULATION damage.

I'm not asking for the impossible; I don't want it to go into industrial crash structural integrity mode, and base components off their strength and internal design (though it would be nice), I'm just asking for a damage model that belongs in the year 2009, because damage of THIS level has been done before, better and, crucially, more realistically.

 

[African Kat]

As a car enthusiast and non - biased GT fan, Forza 3 is making the wait more bearable. However as a new xbox owner, i'm finding out just how differently Microsoft and Sony do things. I just discovered i need a gold membership( fees payable) to access the storefront feature, i haven't got the code to get the free dlc content cause i'm in South Africa and i can't move my game save over to my newly created xbox live profile - so i'll have to start over!

 

[Bogie 19th]

My biggest complaint about Forza 3 is that they really dumbed down the physics

On the contrary, the physics are substantially improved and more realistic in FM3 compared to FM2.

The other major complaints I have besides the driving model are the braindead AI and the half-assed "rewind" feature. The rewind feature might have been an okay addition, if it weren't for the fact that you can't turn it off completely and you can use it as many times as you like. At least GRID limited the number of rewinds you could have based on your selected difficulty level.

Don't like or want Rewind, don't use it. 💡

The AI on the other hand... I know that T10 like copying PD, but this is just taking it too far! The AI in this game is just as retarded as in the earlier GT games. At least the AI in Prologue makes an effort to avoid you.

Yesterday, there must have been no less than 15 different AI throughout my racing that actually went off the track to avoid me.

But autoupgrade? Here we go again T10!

Then don't use it. You can go all out full hardcore upgrade on your own, and bench it. Autoupgrade is entirely optional, just like rewind.

Yes, I have played a LOT of L4D and F3.

No, I do not believe, or have any reason to believe the turtle roll-back-over is just another function added onto the physics engine to let people continue.

But it is. They even documented it in an interview and Turn 10 showed it to a room of press that they put the manual rollover in for users to get back into the game.

Yes I know that the 'simulation' (ad I use that term VERY loosely) damage will have some parts worsen after an impact. But the fact is, the cars STILL drive and drive unrealistically well after an impact, and after a heavy impact that would reduce every single car in real life to scrap, they're still going strong enough to lumber around some more.

I was running some point to point yesterday, and I wasn't paying attention near the end of the straight at Le Mans (I was taking a swig of my diet dew), and I hit the barrier at 180mph. Hood was crumpled, bumper was gone, glass popped out, transmission was reduced to one gear, tie rods toast, and engine was shot. Smoke was coming out the back, and my car would not move forward or backward. Car was done. Something tells me that you haven't played the game long enough, you haven't been in an accident or you haven't played it.

You (should) also know that a severe rollover will actually cause some, you know, actual deformation, yes?

Whole ends of cars should be disappearing, pillars should be crumpled; mechanical damage should be more than just something your local mechanic could repair; and that's what I expect from SIMULATION damage.

As Turn 10 has stated (and PD), they cannot crumple the pillars or deform the cabin on rollovers because manufacturers do not want the driver cabin affected. They said nothing is supposed to enter, encroach or reduce the cabin size. They are not allowed to do this, and it's beyond their control.

I'm not asking for the impossible; I don't want it to go into industrial crash structural integrity mode, and base components off their strength and internal design (though it would be nice), I'm just asking for a damage model that belongs in the year 2009, because damage of THIS level has been done before, better and, crucially, more realistically.

If other games have reduced the cabins in the past, then the rules have changed, because as noted above, PD and Turn 10 are not allowed to do this.

 

[Taurim]

I don't know exactly when the work started on GT5 but it's probably around the time PS3 was made available which was at the end of 2006. Let's say late 2006/early 2007 which is a mere 6 months prior to FM2's release.

That's not the way it works. You don't keep you workforce unemployed and work on GT4 successor probably started as soon as GT4 was out. Maybe before. PD probably got PS3 prototypes very early and you can develop for a new platform before the first silicon is out with compilers and emulators.

I did a little research on PD announcements about the next GT.

Remember "Vision GT" ? Date of the announcement was Friday, June 03, 2005 !

http://theconsolewars.blogspot.com/2005/06/polyphony-digitals-vision-gt.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playstation_3#History

"Sony officially unveiled the PlayStation 3 to the public on May 16, 2005, during the E3 2005 conference."

So work probably started before that.

 

[TBR 427]

*snip*

I'd like to see the video where they said that, and a before and after of it's implementation.

As for not crashing right, perhaps I'm not in the most destructible cars? Keep in mind I usually use the koenigsegg, Maserati GT, Bentley, Ferrari 430 and the BMW M3, occasionally breaking out the MC12 or 908 or something.

Which car were you able to reduce to scrap? If it's too much to ask, could you chuck a few pics or a vid up?

For encroaching on cabins, no there hasn't been many out recently that do that, but I remember a few older ones where the roof would crumple into another 2 or 3 polys and the driver's helmet (basically a box) would stick out through said roof.


EDIT: Taurim, does that look closer to GT4 or GT5. Or something like GTHD? It's clearly not running on a next gen graphics engine, only a last gen one made to work on a PS3 with more power.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I'd like to see the video where they said that, and a before and after of it's implementation.

Sorry, I don't know which one it is. There are so many vids out from them since Turn 10 was at E3. They were on a dev Xbox 360, and they were trying to flip, and it wouldn't flip for them, so they did an over ride of the game to flip the car with the controller stick, and then proceeded to show the audience how they would flip the car back over with the stick to get the gamer back into the game.

Normally I would look, but I just don't want to sit through all those videos (and search for them). If you don't believe the video exists, then I don't know what to tell you. I saw the video (as have many others), so at least we know that the feature is as intended.

As for not crashing right, perhaps I'm not in the most destructible cars? Keep in mind I usually use the koenigsegg, Maserati GT, Bentley, Ferrari 430 and the BMW M3, occasionally breaking out the MC12 or 908 or something.

Even with FM2, it has happened in any car I have been in.

Which car were you able to reduce to scrap? If it's too much to ask, could you chuck a few pics or a vid up?

I can't think of a car that can't be.

For encroaching on cabins, no there hasn't been many out recently that do that, but I remember a few older ones where the roof would crumple into another 2 or 3 polys and the driver's helmet (basically a box) would stick out through said roof.

Well, I am sure if Turn 10 and PD had permission, they would do that. But their hands are tied.

 

[Taurim]

EDIT: Taurim, does that look closer to GT4 or GT5. Or something like GTHD? It's clearly not running on a next gen graphics engine, only a last gen one made to work on a PS3 with more power.

Vision GT was announced before GT HD and you're right. At he time, it looked like a maxed out GT4 with only higher resolutions and more cars and graphical details on the screen.

At a time it was also said than GT will be sold as a two part game : GT HD with a new graphical engine + some cars and tracks and GT HD Classic, a maxed out version of GT4 engine with a mix of cars and bikes.

3 big pictures of it, one with bikes (announcement : E3 2006) :

http://news-images.caradisiac.com/IMG/jpg/7/9/1/5/0/Gran-turismo-HD-classic-00.jpg
http://news-images.caradisiac.com/IMG/jpg/7/9/1/5/0/Gran-turismo-HD-classic-01.jpg
http://news-images.caradisiac.com/IMG/jpg/7/9/1/5/0/Gran-turismo-HD-classic-02.jpg


Another funny announcement on a french video game web site :

http://www.jeuxvideo.fr/gran-turismo-hd-japon-actu-38642.html (September 20 2006 !)

"PD said that GT HD will be published in Japan in December 2006"

3 years later : nothing

 

[Bogie 19th]

Anyone remember this rumored GT?:

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3153775

Pay per car.

 

[Taurim]

Yes, I remember this and everybody hated this announcement !

 

[Lain]

Anyone remember this rumored GT?:

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3153775

Pay per car.

Thankfully that was scrapped.

 

[Kryz11]

Pay per car? Hmm iRacing has it, and it works in a way..

 

[patriotzero]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cudXigEQvB8 pay for this

 

[evilfoxhound]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-forza3-evolution-article

Today, Digital Foundry takes a look at Forza 2, 3 and GT5P.

An interesting read.

 

[Tenacious D]

Pay per car? Hmm iRacing has it, and it works in a way..

Err... yeah, in a $150 a year way. Or more. That's why I don't bother with it, and why the same idea in GT5 didn't sell very well.

Forza seems to be halfway going that direction, with "monthly" DLC car and track packs coming at a price yet to be revealed. I wasn't a big fan of the FM2 packs, and initially there was quite a riot over the number of Skyline-like minor car changes to a vehicle we already had, and at $10 a pop at first. This could end up costing more than the game itself. What I'd rather see are quarterly or semi-annual packs with a lot of content at a fair price, maybe even DVDs. But since we haven't seen anything of this yet, maybe it'll all be good.

 

[gideon1451]

It can fill the gap between GT5 release that's for sure, Even though it has some few flaws it's still a hell of a great game.

Off topic, anyone here notice the body roll in Forza 3? It looks weird to see it in replay, is that the physics fault?


This has been my question for a while now.
How realistic is Forza 3 to call it a sim?

Haha, I know what you mean about the simulation thing.
I watched that & thought two things:
1. The graphics are impressing me, & I expect GT5's to be better. Gosh, they'll be good.
2. A Land Rover powersliding? It looks more like Ridgeracer.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I don't care for all of the cars in every game. I would like to get a nice default set of cars, and then get the ones that I want via DLC.

Forza has over 400 cars now (the most it has had), so I am glad they keep bring the totals up.

 

[McLaren]

Err... yeah, in a $150 a year way. Or more. That's why I don't bother with it, and why the same idea in GT5 didn't sell very well.

Forza seems to be halfway going that direction, with "monthly" DLC car and track packs coming at a price yet to be revealed. I wasn't a big fan of the FM2 packs, and initially there was quite a riot over the number of Skyline-like minor car changes to a vehicle we already had, and at $10 a pop at first. This could end up costing more than the game itself. What I'd rather see are quarterly or semi-annual packs with a lot of content at a fair price, maybe even DVDs. But since we haven't seen anything of this yet, maybe it'll all be good.

For one, this isn't just a Forza issue. A few other developers release content every month you have to pay for, 1 that does it every week.

As for the price, that's all Microsoft. TDU went through a similar price exchange & Atari staff informed us that MS set what they thought was an appropriate price, that everything on the Marketplace goes through them first.

 

[Devedander]

Yes, I have played a LOT of L4D and F3.

No, I do not believe, or have any reason to believe the turtle roll-back-over is just another function added onto the physics engine to let people continue. Quite the contrary, in fact. T10 has shown a lack of polish with body movement in it's games;

First off, the specific thing we were talking about was this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUxVNENan6g which for whatever reason isn't working right now, but it's where someone keeps half rolling the car and claims the car can't roll back over... what we are saying is that's not a physics glitch, it's a function in the game being missused and then claiming it's a physics glitch, kind of like if I kept dropping someone in L4d and saying "L4D people can't get back up!". If you saw a video of that would you say "Ha! L4D physics are broken, that guy can't even get back up!"?

Secondly when they demoed rollover damage it was specifically said that that's why getting your car back up and running was put in... so you wouldn't get stuck in a multiplayer race with nothing to do but quit out.

And you don't believe that it was put in as a purpose built function that you can get your car back on it's wheels? You think it's just a lack of polish as in they somehow overlooked it and it squeezed it's way into the game? I really hope that's not what you are saying as it makes no sense.


As for the rest of your post that is about the damage model, that's a seperate point. What we were talking about specifically was the video in which someone keeps half rolling their car over and claiming it's a failure in the game rather than what it is which is someone intentionally manipulating it to do that.

So lemme just ask this, because I really hope I am missunderstanding you somehow... from your post it sounds like you are saying that the ability to roll your car back over is not an intentional part of the game but that T10 just someone overlooked taking it out of the game and it's just errant coding in a bad physics engine that lets you get your car back on it's wheels after it's been on it's roof?

 

[LaBounti]

To me its like Forza 2 with the vice removed when buying cars ..... It will do until GT5 comes out. It has also re assured me that GT5 can still have chance vs FM3. We still no very little about GT5's structure and features. But its massive car list is impressive.

GT5 will be the only game besides GTPSP that comes with a ZR-1 and GT-R

 

[Antti-san]

On the contrary, the physics are substantially improved and more realistic in FM3 compared to FM2.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, then. For the record, I never said that the physics engine in Forza 2 was perfect either (far from it), but at least that game, in my opinion, conveyes the feeling of driving a powerful sports car better than Forza 3. In any case, to me, neither of those games come close to Prologue when it comes to driving physics.

Don't like or want Rewind, don't use it. 💡

Then don't use it. You can go all out full hardcore upgrade on your own, and bench it. Autoupgrade is entirely optional, just like rewind.

Sounds like a plan. 👍

Yesterday, there must have been no less than 15 different AI throughout my racing that actually went off the track to avoid me.

Funny how I never noticed that; they just kept cutting me in. But hey, like McLaren said, I'm obviously not that far into the game.

Really, I don't want to start a flame war here. Obviously we all have our (differing) opinions, so let's leave it at that. Peace!

 

[myke6699]

But as in any sort of development there is a period of gestation- just a few years back I was involved in the building of a nightclub which finally opened in 2008. The actual work actually started in 2005, and I came on board in 2006. For most of that year I was dealing with mostly ideas and proposal. 2007 was mostly impressing the investors, coming up with money and sourcing materials and the actual work came in months before the door actually opened.

Vision GT and even GT:HD is simply GT4 in proper HD (1920x1080) and from what I've seen bear little resemblence to even GT5 Prologue: all the important features that finally made it to Prologue was no where- 16 car grid, cockpit view, GTTV, the physics etc. Personally I don't think that for games such as GT (and FM), there is never a defined period where the work for the next title actually begin. Despite T10 claim, Forza just like GT is a constantly evolving game and that the next one is never that far away from the last one. While the method is the same, the difference is in the execution: T10 seems to be following the industry standard of 2 years in between releases and while GT games has done that in the past, the recent ones were less frequent to be puctuated by minor releases ie. Prologue and other concept work. But to say that FM should be judged from a different standard than GT because of that is rather misguided.

 

[TBR 427]

it's not a bug, it's a feature

You know what company coined that phrase, right?

Come on dude...have a guess.



But seriously, you're making a fool out of yourself by comparing 'The Turtle' to L4D's revive/pull up animations.

Why?

Because they ARE ANIMATIONS!

They have been, each, individually, specifically animated by Valve. There is only one way you can pull Louis up from the ledge when he runs after some pills. There is only one way you can help Bill up when his hip goes. There is only ONE animation for each character and each interaction (pull up, revive, etc). That is the only animation it will play during that time. It is pre-set, like the reload animation, like the melee animation, like the jump animation. The closest thing that the player has to control over them is the ability to start and prematurely stop them, and guess what? That just causes a new, pre-set animation!

The Turtle still gives players full control. Over movement, over time, over speed and angle. It is NOT a pre-set animation. You are responsible entirely for what happens. If you stop doing the turtle, is will NOT give you a "failed-to-turtle" animation. From a physics, gameplay, and animation point of view, the turtle is closer to a ragdoll than it is to L4D's help animations.

Honestly, you thought the get back up movements in L4D were physics-based?

Are you kidding?

 

[Seismica]

The problem i have with that 'tutle rollover' fail vid, is not the trying to flip the car (because as has been said many times, it is a feature, an alternative to pressing a button to reset your car back on the track), but when he hits the wall.

The impact should damage the front right side and push the car into a spin. Instead, it lifts the right wheels up at a perpendicular angle to the ground and the car drives along the barrier horizontally. It does not seem possible to me. Until i see a vid of that in real life, it can't happen, and the physics engine is wrong.(yeah it can't be perfect, but still...)

 

[TBR 427]

The problem i have with that 'tutle rollover' fail vid, is not the trying to flip the car (because as has been said many times, it is a feature, an alternative to pressing a button to reset your car back on the track), but when he hits the wall.

The impact should damage the front right side and push the car into a spin. Instead, it lifts the right wheels up at a perpendicular angle to the ground and the car drives along the barrier horizontally. It does not seem possible to me. Until i see a vid of that in real life, it can't happen, and the physics engine is wrong.(yeah it can't be perfect, but still...)

Major reason for that; these cars are still fundamentally indestructible objects.

They do not bend or crumple. They do not absorb the energy of a crash like cars do in real life. So the game sends that impact energy somewhere, which is why everything in-game bounces when it should grind into and then spin off.

The graphical bit may lead some people to believe that the cars actually absorb impact, but the crashes aren't based or calculated off what you see, are they? Hitboxes! (that's also why that video the lamborghini and Porsche crumpled but didn't appear to make contact).

 

[TokyoDrift]

I was over at my cousins the other night, and he is one of those "take em or leave em" types when it comes to racing games. He's not that good at them! Give him GT5P with pro physics and other aids either off or at low values, he can't get the car around the track without loads of practice. So, he put on the FMIII demo, picked the R8, turned off most of the assists, and proceeded to blast around the track into first place. Hmmm... Dumbed down? I'd say so.

This is fine if you want an accessible, "arcadey" experience, but not if you want to experience thrashing a car around a track. As for the rollover physics...oh dear...