Has Forza 3 suppressed you appetite for GT5?

[Terronium-12]

First of all Forza is a good series, it always has been. Unfortunately the reality of the simulation\car world is that its not in the same universe as Gran Turismo is. Which forza fan's cant accept. It has to be in the same leauge to them because its generally all they can play.

There is a reason why Ferrari, Citroen or Mercedes chooses to debut their vehicles in GT.

You say I cant give credit where credit is due, I believe its absolutely the reverse. You want to ignore GT's strengths, and pretend that Turn10/Polyphony are making the same game--so thats why F3 having a feature PD is ignoring(decal community trading) is a must have for a simulation. The Simulation genre is still here, regardless of what Turn10 decides are definitive simulation features it lifts from Arcade titles.

To some extent you're right but you're approaching the matter in the face of "Gran Turismo is the be all end all" and it just isn't the case. Forza has approached aspects Gran Turismo has avoided for some reason or another, and look, it's taken the fifth iteration to include full scale damage and it's still nothing of the sort that Forza presents (at current). Forza is more about decals and customization, look how many older (mostly muscle) cars are in FM3 because the community requested it and they aptly responded. Where's our immersive community? Nothing but a figment of anyone's imagination because there isn't one. And I'll say this bit once again because it's become evermore apparent - this anticipation, all the hype, the rumors and the conversations are all GT5's worse enemy; forget about any other competing title, this is all about that 5 going on 6 year wait for what very well damn be the best 60 or so dollars I've ever spent. If it isn't, if it falls below even the most insignificant par it's done for. Whether it be skid marks, audio, community interaction (more than just the simple multiplayer with private lobbies), customization or whatever the case may be...if it's less than anything it's going to get blasted for it.

Why?

Because all of that anticipation built up, all of the interviews that revealed more and more little by little all failed to acknowledge that it's become nothing but a massive car library and nothing more.

Like I've said to a few people beforehand, perhaps that's the thing you should really be considering as opposed to the legitimacy of Forza Motorsport being on equal ground with Gran Turismo or not.

 

[Seismica]

I don't think the majority really think that, but I think the common conception is that with online features a bigger and more in depth community is possible.

I doubt that they do, but the minority of Forza fans list 'Online community' as a feature GT does not have which is not the case (in my post i said 'people' which gave the wrong impression of what i meant). Some even go as far as saying that the online on Forza 3 is better than GT5, but we know little to nothing about what the online features of GT5 will be so that argument is null and void aswell.

 

[blademask]

To some extent you're right but you're approaching the matter in the face of "Gran Turismo is the be all end all" and it just isn't the case. Forza has approached aspects Gran Turismo has avoided for some reason or another, and look, it's taken the fifth iteration to include full scale damage and it's still nothing of the sort that Forza presents (at current). Forza is more about decals and customization, look how many older (mostly muscle) cars are in FM3 because the community requested it and they aptly responded. Where's our immersive community? Nothing but a figment of anyone's imagination because there isn't one. And I'll say this bit once again because it's become evermore apparent - this anticipation, all the hype, the rumors and the conversations are all GT5's worse enemy; forget about any other competing title, this is all about that 5 going on 6 year wait for what very well damn be the best 60 or so dollars I've ever spent. If it isn't, if it falls below even the most insignificant par it's done for. Whether it be skid marks, audio, community interaction (more than just the simple multiplayer with private lobbies), customization or whatever the case may be...if it's less than anything it's going to get blasted for it.

Why?

Because all of that anticipation built up, all of the interviews that revealed more and more little by little all failed to acknowledge that it's become nothing but a massive car library and nothing more.

Like I've said to a few people beforehand, perhaps that's the thing you should really be considering as opposed to the legitimacy of Forza Motorsport being on equal ground with Gran Turismo or not.

*sigh*

GT is not the end all be all. Which is why I said there are games that have better features than GT & Have scored higher than GT. The problem that you cant seem to accept is that if Forza3 has isn't perfect, then that must mean I'm saying GT is perfect. No, I'm not saying that. Not in the slightest.

GT offers what no PC/Console game offers with its second to none presentation. Thats its strong suit, its what puts it in its own ballpark. Where as Forza's ballpark is to claim features that already exist in the majority of sims\games on the market today, especially in the PC world.

Its a case of saying 1 can replace another one. As the topic suggests, Forza simply can't, just as need for speed can't. Which is why I compared the two. Forza is a great franchise, as I've always said. But we are here on the third iteration, with the same exact pathetic discussion about its "community" and painting features making it a better more appealing simulation, or a replacement for GT. Which based on the success of F1 & F2, its not.

GT's always take a while to come out of the can. The first title took 5 years without releasing prologues & mobile versions of the game. Its one of the few games that can get away with it because of the pedigree of the developer. The fans get it, and more importantly Sony gets it. There isn't a rush to compete with Forza, because Forza isn't competition. GT isn't looking over its back to justify itself to forza, you do realize its clearly the other way around? Damage & online has been in sims\console games before Forza. It was a modern feature to add to the series, like the Cockpit view in F3 & HDR lighting.

If your expectations are for Polyphony to add Cat & Mouse to its online & decal painting, then I'm sorry, save your $60.00. Because thats not the game they are making. I expect them to add private lobbies & tournaments and keep some sort of vehicle trading that GT had with memory cards. Hopefully some sort of Top-Gear challenge mode since the relationship is there & the same general features PC sims have, is all I expect in GT or any simulation thats mimicking real life racing. Its not as if GT & Forza are on the exact same level outside of the online functionality. And thats the only difference.

If you like forza, you like forza. Its a good game. But its not replacing GT any more than dig-dug is. You seem hurt over the time its taking GT to come out, and I think its better for you that you don't bother purchasing the game at this point. No game delivered will ever be perfect if you're basing your decision on hype.

Unlike me for example. I own a G25+Playseat, bought a PS3 specifically for the day GT(whenever it would be, GT's always take FOREVER egh) would come out(as I've always purchased Playstations). In the meantime, I play other games & PC sims. Im expecting GT to deliver on its presentation, and offer a good feeling from its vehicles. Which is about all I ask of any simulator. I dont wonder why my other sims are missing team-deathmatch. I don't wonder why GTR2 is "oh so hard to drive!" or anything of the sort. The things I've wanted for GT have been confirmed. On top of the breathtaking car porn, Better sound/damage/TopGear/Lambo&Ferrari/Online/OpenWheel/Wrc/Cockpit View/body modification/Head Tracking/more vehicles/Better A.I/1080p + 60fps/ everything else is literally just icing on a cake that I already know tastes great. I'm a guy that loves looking at cars, and being around them/in them. No other game provides what GT provides in that regard.

Forza is a good enjoyable game, and I love the livery editor, but I never found myself just doing hotlaps and feeling challenged doing so, it was more about just racing with friends/online more so than actual driving skill. The same could be found in Midtown/Testdrive. Neither of which would I spend the time to really nail down my times.

I think the additions to GT5 & GT5p definitely speak to PD's attention to the community, after all. We are PD's customers. I remember when people were complaining that rubber banding should be turned off on expert events online and what PD did...I still see people on the Forza forums complaining about rubberbanding. And I think the car selection outside of porshce speaks for itself with the inclusion of open wheel vehicles/variety. as well as concept cars like the new Murai.

 

[Terronium-12]

...Okay.

I don't know where the basis for some of those assumptions derive but you think what you think, and I can't change that. So, let's just agree to disagree.

 

[ploopsy]

Forza is pretty damn fun.

AND the new tracks are pretty fun to learn.

BUT The game still lacks some of that crispness that only GT seems to deliver.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Forza is pretty damn fun.

AND the new tracks are pretty fun to learn.

BUT The game still lacks some of that crispness that only GT seems to deliver.

Yeah. Thats why my answer is yes and no.

Its something fun to do for a while, and IMO much improved over FM2, but it just doesn't have that GT flavor, to which I have grown accustom.

 

[Devedander]

Yeah. Thats why my answer is yes and no.

Its something fun to do for a while, and IMO much improved over FM2, but it just doesn't have that GT flavor, to which I have grown accustom.

I think that's a big part too... sometimes what you are used to is as important as how accurate or realistic it is.

I know there are some restaraunts I like in which the food isn't as "Good" as finer restaraunts, but you know what? I still like them better just becuase I grew up eating there and it's what I am used to and like.

 

[Seismica]

I think that's a big part too... sometimes what you are used to is as important as how accurate or realistic it is.

I know there are some restaraunts I like in which the food isn't as "Good" as finer restaraunts, but you know what? I still like them better just becuase I grew up eating there and it's what I am used to and like.

So there are two restaurants, a fine restaurant and a local diner/restaurant that serves good food, but not the finest/best quality. The only difference between the two is one takes longer from the order point to being put on a plate infront of you.

In my opinion, if its the same price i would much rather go to the fine restaurant, its worth the wait for the food.

The comment about growing up there, well i grew up with GT, so thats even more reason for me to like GT, i like PDs style, they nail the game everytime. Although i do want Forza, because everybody needs a take-away/fast food every now and again. They sometimes taste better than the fine food, but they give you a bit of constipation and they are not very nutritious.

 

[Devedander]

So there are two restaurants, a fine restaurant and a local diner/restaurant that serves good food, but not the finest/best quality. The only difference between the two is one takes longer from the order point to being put on a plate infront of you.

In my opinion, if its the same price i would much rather go to the fine restaurant, its worth the wait for the food.

The comment about growing up there, well i grew up with GT, so thats even more reason for me to like GT, i like PDs style, they nail the game everytime. Although i do want Forza, because everybody needs a take-away/fast food every now and again. They sometimes taste better than the fine food, but they give you a bit of constipation and they are not very nutritious.

OK that was a bit TMI... but anyway, I wasn't trying to get into so much detail. I was just saying that what is established is often going to get some benefit in the "feels right" category becuase you are used to it.

 

[Tenacious D]

I'll say this bit once again because it's become evermore apparent - this anticipation, all the hype, the rumors and the conversations are all GT5's worse enemy; forget about any other competing title, this is all about that 5 going on 6 year wait for what very well damn be the best 60 or so dollars I've ever spent. If it isn't, if it falls below even the most insignificant par it's done for.

People have been predicting the death of Gran Turismo for about a decade, and have always been shown to be wrong. And I'll say this bit once again. If all GT5 offers is a library of cars, a minor damage implementation, some halfway decent online features and slightly tweaked Prologue physics, it's going to sell like tacos, and make millions of fans around the world very happy. I will be.

I would add, while I'm going to demand racing modification and a livery editor in Gran Turismo, or at least paintable race cars, I won't die if it's not included. In fact, even if it isn't, I'm buying the most expensive collectors edition PD offers. I don't have any nagging fears that GT5 might not deliver on the thing that I want the game for: an excellent racing sim. I have Prologue, and I love it. I love it way more than I'll ever love Forza's car handling algorithms, even as improved as Forza 3 is. I do love making race cars, and the tracks are cool. But the 3D perspective is weird, and the cars still handle pretty much like the usual Forza. It's just not as good.

 

[Terronium-12]

I really want to see how many have anything negative to say about GT5 once it's abound, or if everything will be excused...just because it's Gran Turismo.

I could care less about loyalty to either game, the thought of such is heinous to begin with. They're both giving me the opportunity to drive some vehicles that I won't be able to drive later on down the road (unless I hit up an auction house) so, as far as that goes neither of them are better than the other.

When you can actually turn the ignition and thus start the car, or when either of them can modulate the depth pitch of a V8 in the distance, then we'll talk about which I prefer over the other.

 

[Lain]

I really want to see how many have anything negative to say about GT5 once it's abound, or if everything will be excused...just because it's Gran Turismo.

I could care less about loyalty to either game, the thought of such is heinous to begin with. They're both giving me the opportunity to drive some vehicles that I won't be able to drive later on down the road (unless I hit up an auction house) so, as far as that goes neither of them are better than the other.

When you can actually turn the ignition and thus start the car, or when either of them can modulate the depth pitch of a V8 in the distance, then we'll talk about which I prefer over the other.

Everyone on here will likely excuse GT5 for any shortcomings. Less hardcore fans, and non-fans, probably won't.

Anyway, Forza 3 is great. But I have a feeling that if GT4 and GT5P are any indication, GT5's single player experience is going to blow Forza 3 out of the water.

Online is Forza's strength. Lets hope Polyphony can at least bring something respectable to the table in that department.

 

[Devedander]

It's always funny to see what one side throws at the other, as it's ultimately going to come full circle.

F3 physics glitches, weird turtle roll over, car on nose... we will see similar problem videos when Gt5 comes around. No game is perfect and there will be exploitable glitchable areas in the game.

 

[FLASH48]

I see you found a couple more threads to spam know!!^^^

 

[McLaren]

It's always funny to see what one side throws at the other, as it's ultimately going to come full circle.

F3 physics glitches, weird turtle roll over, car on nose... we will see similar problem videos when Gt5 comes around. No game is perfect and there will be exploitable glitchable areas in the game.

That's not a game fault, that's idiots looking to discredit the physics engine.

 

[TBR 427]

That's not a game fault, that's idiots looking to discredit the physics engine.

NO, turtle roll-over IS T10's fault. Glitches launch cars through the map, off the map, over the map, etc. Controlling your car while it's upside down, because in forzaland steering = bodyroll, isn't a glitch.

They COULD have coded it out (it would be a lot easier than if they'd deliberately coded it in), and they still might in a patch.

Oh, and the car-on-nose thing is just because they cheaped out and used a MASSIVE big square cube rectangle thing hitbox. Except for the roof, which from the turtle rollover looks to have 3 panels.

Basically, from the front, the collision engine sees this:
.____
/......\
|____|

And from the top it sees this
_________
|.............|
|________|

 

[SuperShouden]

There is body roll :

umm...there's body roll in GT4, dude.

 

[Terronium-12]

NO, turtle roll-over IS T10's fault. Glitches launch cars through the map, off the map, over the map, etc. Controlling your car while it's upside down, because in forzaland steering = bodyroll, isn't a glitch.

They COULD have coded it out (it would be a lot easier than if they'd deliberately coded it in), and they still might in a patch.

Oh, and the car-on-nose thing is just because they cheaped out and used a MASSIVE big square cube rectangle thing hitbox. Except for the roof, which from the turtle rollover looks to have 3 panels.

Basically, from the front, the collision engine sees this:
.____
/......\
|____|

And from the top it sees this
_________
|.............|
|________|

Exactly. Because one lame video is indicative of the physics, the visuals and I suppose the actual experience as well...

As I said, I want to see how many of these complaints or such are noticed once GT5 rolls around.

 

[JamboGT]

Forza for me is good but underwhelming, will pass some of the time to March though.

 

[Devedander]

NO, turtle roll-over IS T10's fault. Glitches launch cars through the map, off the map, over the map, etc. Controlling your car while it's upside down, because in forzaland steering = bodyroll, isn't a glitch.

They COULD have coded it out (it would be a lot easier than if they'd deliberately coded it in), and they still might in a patch.

Oh, and the car-on-nose thing is just because they cheaped out and used a MASSIVE big square cube rectangle thing hitbox. Except for the roof, which from the turtle rollover looks to have 3 panels.

Basically, from the front, the collision engine sees this:
.____
/......\
|____|

And from the top it sees this
_________
|.............|
|________|

Well actually the turtle roll over video I was talking about was indeed someone abusing the game mechanics... the point was that people from one camp seem to always find joy in cherry picking the worst circumstances to illustrate flaws in the other game but seem to have goldfish memory that it happened to them not long ago and forget they did it too when it happens to them next time...

 

[alba]

Forza for me is good but underwhelming, will pass some of the time to March though.

Same for me

 

[gtbloke]

Nope not in the slightest

Coming from years of racing sims on the (superior) pc platform, i could not give a rats backside about forza 3 and i sure as hell would not buy an xbox just for that title... i bought the ps3 a couple of years back mainly for the bluray and free online gaming... why pay for something you already are paying for xbox users... i.e internet connection!!

GT has that certain flair and is a polished product and about as close as console racers will get to a simulation bar building a decent pc and then experiencing all these things pc's have enjoyed for years without paying a subscription to use the internet which you already do to your isp !!! << sorry but i just could not do that

GT5 will be an amazing title and i look forward to its release... in the mean time i unfortunately have reality to deal with

Take care ppl..

 

[hugo24]

One thign GT should definately initiate is a home webpage the standard of forza motorsport.

Not only did the provide us with car showings regularly up to launch, they kept us update by blogs and podcasts fortnightly.

The one thing you couldn't accuse Turn 10 of is not keeping their fans informed of the games progression.

Even now they are regularly updating the community even post launch about game issues, vip downloads and car give away competitions.

I will not hold my breath for GT posting solutions and likely launch for fixes if anything goes wrong at launch.

 

[TBR 427]

Exactly. Because one lame video is indicative of the physics, the visuals and I suppose the actual experience as well...

As I said, I want to see how many of these complaints or such are noticed once GT5 rolls around.

Who said anything about the visuals or the overall experience? I just pointed out why these things happen dude.

Well actually the turtle roll over video I was talking about was indeed someone abusing the game mechanics... the point was that people from one camp seem to always find joy in cherry picking the worst circumstances to illustrate flaws in the other game but seem to have goldfish memory that it happened to them not long ago and forget they did it too when it happens to them next time...

What's more interesting are the people who confuse the notion of 'the worst' with 'the most obvious'. Those are the most obvious representations and displays of those issues. They are problems.

If you're thinking those are the worst circumstances you're not exactly on the fence, if you know what I mean.

 

[Tenacious D]

I really want to see how many have anything negative to say about GT5 once it's abound, or if everything will be excused...just because it's Gran Turismo.

First of all, what have we heard from the Forza fans? When it suits the argument, Forza 3 really is leaps and bounds ahead of the competition. When it's pointed out that it really isn't all that definitive, or that it's a marginal improvement over FM2, then, for all its faults, it's still one of the best racing experiences you can have right now. Which, yes, I'll agree with that. But let me explain why I agree with that.

The draw of Forza is different from the draw of Gran Turismo. With Forza, it's the elements of gaming associated with racing. It's online clubbing, or dragging, or drifting, or touge, or painting up race cars. That last one is my addiction, and it's great. But in my opinion, it seems that it's the community aspects which make Forza great, and this nudges T10 to shape Forza a certain way. Drifting is made easier to attract the drifting crowd. You have to pay for online anything, but they set it up like a FPS to enable you to do a number of fun things online. You can even post replays and pics online. This shapes Forza into having a certain character, such as having only 8 car races, because touging with 16 cars would be a mess. How many of us can get together with 16 friends at once anyway? It also means fewer cars are necessary, because certain cars are key to those various aspects. And none of those elements above are about the feeling of taking a car to the edge in a turn.

And McLaren, let's not discuss physics while leaving out the 3D implementation. The physics this time around are pretty decent. They gave us a Forza which is much more simmish, but they still have a Forza feel to them. It's a subtle difference, but it does affect the flavor of the game, like having too much salt, or not enough. And the 3D is still a little odd. Coming up to turns, once again I'm fishing for braking points, and it doesn't help that braking is broken. Even with ABS on, the brakes lock up much too easily. Yes, you can buy adjustable racing brakes and set them to lock up near the bottom of the pedal throw, but then what about races that require stock cars? And those ugly tire sounds could do a better job communicating how well the tires are gripping.

That paragraph is why I have a love/meh relationship with Forza. If it didn't have a good race modding system and an awesome livery editor, I doubt I would have even bought it, because I sure don't like it for its physics or driving. I get that from my PC sims and Prologue. Even GT4, with all its warts, is a better driving experience than Forza. To me, I should hasten to add. Some people can't get enough of Forza's feel, but I'm just not one of them, and around here, that opinion is pretty widely shared. It's even quietly held at the Forza forums among some of them.

Which brings me to Gran Turismo. The difference in focus in GT should be clear. It's all about the cars, and the driving experience. What GT5 will feature, we just don't know. All we know is damage work is getting in and will be dynamic, at least on racing cars. It may have all the things Forza 3 offers, and more, but we won't know that till next year. But the difference is that everything included in a Gran Turismo game is about the cars, and about those cars in the racing experience. Kazunori's intention has always been to give you the illusion of being in a car on a track, and GT does that better than any game I've ever played. Gran Turismo equips me to take a turn with authority, to really push a car around a curve, and this is where the real racing happens. Any fool can go straight and floor it. And this is what matters to me the most. This is what Prologue delivers, and Forza 3 still doesn't, and that's the difference between a really good racing game and a great one.

I'll admit to being a GT fanboy, but I also have a pretty clear eye, and I think my assessment is fairly accurate.

The one thing you couldn't accuse Turn 10 of is not keeping their fans informed of the games progression.

...I will not hold my breath for GT posting solutions and likely launch for fixes if anything goes wrong at launch.

Well, yeah... a few months prior to launch, we got word of the game's progression. You must have not been around to hear all the bellyaching about lack of news before then.

As for bug fixes in GT5, you must not own Prologue, because when there was a real problem with it, it got patched within a couple of weeks or less, sometimes that week. It's been patched several times.

 

[Pierced Lead]

The thing is, FM3 was announced pretty close to its release date. GT5 has been confirmed for like forever.

Oh, and people 'abusing' the physics was the cause of that turtle rollover? I'm sorry, but if the physics weren't glitchy from the first place, they wouldn't have been able to achieve it. So it's ultimately the dev's fault for not cleaning up that glitch.

T10 developed a game to 'rival' GT with the features GT doesn't have.

Pros of GT:

- Like-like Graphics and replay
- Physics
- Car roster
- Attention to detail


Pros of Forza:

- Customization
- Online
- Sounds
- Damage

See the contrast there? Its because T10 knows they couldn't beat GT in the aforementioned points, because GT has reached the peak of them, they use the cons of GT [read: pros of Forza] against it to compete with it. However, realism in graphics and physics, two main points of GT, nail the concept of a simulator.

 

[Taurim]

I did not agree with the physic of GT5P being better than FM3. GT5P feels wrong and my car is (I think) better simulated by FM3 than GT5P Neither are perfect. If you want perfection, buy the car OK for the other pros of each game.

Recent interviews with Kazunori Yamauchi prove that PD is working hard on the physics to make GT5 a better simulator (if not the best, we'll see...). Those who tried seriously the latest GT5 demo seem to agree.

For me there is only one valid point in all this debate between playing FM3 or waiting for GT5 while playing a limited GT5P : Money !!!

If you really are into racing games/simulations and if you can afford it : buy FM3 + all the package to run it (wheel !) and you won't regret it

 

[Terronium-12]

Turn 10 is beginning to pay a lot more attention to detail as is evident within FM3. Of course, they're still lacking active aerodynamics which is a shame because everything else seems to have been done so well. They still have a lot to account for as long as they're going to be around looking to be that thorn in the back of Gran Turismo of course...I never claimed any differences in that statement. Particular people being blind or simply refusing to acknowledge how good FM3 looks now (miles better than FM2) or how much GT inspiration is apparent in the game (I mean, who says giving a nod to the people who influenced you is a bad thing?). Of course it doesn't look as good as GT5 does/will, that's the equivalent of me saying Resistance 2, Fallout 3 or even MGS4 don't look anywhere near as flushed, vibrant or just plain out as good-looking as Crysis, Assassin's Creed 2 or Lost Planet does using the DX10 API, of course it doesn't. The PS3 simply has more throughput at hand as does a custom PC.

I'm waiting for GT5 just as much as the next guy, hell, perhaps even moreso...but there's no reason for me to blatantly talk out of my ass and claim FM3 sucks for this and that reason when GT or other games before it have had the same exact problems.

For example...

FM3 has a retarded lap validation/invalidation mechanic where if you so much as clip a corner or the AI rams into you (and they will unless you pull off away from them) the lap can't be validated for the leaderboards; just as Gran Turismo has a retarded penalty system where pretty much the same occurs, more or less, with a heightened emphasis on the AI.

It's not directed toward anyone, but all I'm saying is I criticize equally...I'm not going to excuse one just because I like it more than the other.

 

[McLaren]

And McLaren, let's not discuss physics while leaving out the 3D implementation. The physics this time around are pretty decent. They gave us a Forza which is much more simmish, but they still have a Forza feel to them. It's a subtle difference, but it does affect the flavor of the game, like having too much salt, or not enough. And the 3D is still a little odd. Coming up to turns, once again I'm fishing for braking points, and it doesn't help that braking is broken. Even with ABS on, the brakes lock up much too easily. Yes, you can buy adjustable racing brakes and set them to lock up near the bottom of the pedal throw, but then what about races that require stock cars? And those ugly tire sounds could do a better job communicating how well the tires are gripping.

I haven't discussed a thing, so don't bring me into one of your long posts about what you think of either game.

All I did was point out that the "turtle rollover" videos are not Turn10 faults, but fanboys manipulating the physics engine.

 

[Seismica]

It's always funny to see what one side throws at the other, as it's ultimately going to come full circle.

F3 physics glitches, weird turtle roll over, car on nose... we will see similar problem videos when Gt5 comes around. No game is perfect and there will be exploitable glitchable areas in the game.

Look see, the thing is, its not the physics that most people are bothered about. Its the little things i would be annoyed about if i bought Forza instead of Gran Turismo (The ideal situation would be to buy both, but lack of money means i can only afford one).

Just browsing the Forza forums, and there are many many threads complaining about small insignificant things in the game that most people miss, but that affect gameplay significantly. Here are some examples:

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/3090757.aspx - It seems you cannot have kmh and bhp, you can only choose Metric or Imperial, and Metric sets power to KW. Gran Turismo you customise them individually, and it is something i take for granted. It would not affect me as i use imperial, but forza didn't think it through that people are different and use different measures.

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/3137581.aspx - The Engine revs automatically at the start of a race. It gives you less than half a second between the auto revs stopping and you taking over before the race starts, so its near impossible to get off the line without traction control in a RWD/FWD car due to wheelspin. This would become gradually more annoying with the more races you do. As i say it would not really affect me too much as i love my 4WD grip, so starts are not a problem. It seems there are many complaints about this affecting RWD cars in drag racing mode, where the launch is critical, and makes RWD pretty much useless for those races.

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/3120120.aspx - People complaining about the soundtrack. There have been similar complaints with GT5P, but PD have promised custom soundtracks, and also considering the great variety they had in the GT4 soundtrack, so there will be no problem in GT5, it will cater for everyones preference.

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/3082215.aspx - There have been multiple complaints about the lack of public lobbys. Now they are random lobbies, like we have in GT5P, unlike the good matching system everyone liked in Forza 2. To quote this guy who is complaining, it is 'killing' the community aspect of the game. We don't know what we will see with the online in GT5, but hopefully they can do better. I'm not too hopeful on that one But at least we know there will be private lobbies, but FM3 has that too... so they are on par for online racing at this point.

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/3166027.aspx - Your precious rewind feature does not work all the time. Enough said, why have a feature that only works sometimes when you press it? Reading more into the thread you find, if you press it multiple times, it can take you back half a lap rather than the last corner that you wanted to re-do.

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/3130639.aspx - This guy can't get his controller setup the way it was in FM2. A very simple issue that Turn10 will have to fix. Again GT doesn't have this problem, every button can be configured indivifually. Another feature we all take for granted, but its becoming quite rare in games these days which makes me sad.

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/3146544.aspx - When buying rear bumpers it only shows you the front of the car? So you have to buy and sell parts to see each one? It was not a problem in Forza 2 as you could rotate your car in buying body parts. Even Need fro Speed don't overlook this. Very very poor... I hope PD manage to do better with their promised aero upgrades.


I could list more but i am getting bored.

Obviously Turn10 will resolve most if not all of these issues in the coming weeks/months (i think they already resolved 1 or 2 in the first patch, but not sure).

The fact GT5 was originally aimed at PS3 release and now its for 2010, and the fact that GT4 was delayed by a long time, shows PD take their time over games mean it is very unlikely we will see games with just bad design and no proper game testing at all. The problems i listed with FM3 are not really bugs, they are just things they simply overlooked, or didn't think through, and the fact a lot of these were not problems in Forza 2 just goes to show they didn't put the effort in this time. I was not paying attention to Forza on the release of Forza 2, so i am interested to know if there was any similar problems with that.

The only real thing i dislike about PD at the moment is the fact they released GT5P for a cost and when GT5 is released it will be full price. This means i will have paid £20 more for GT than if i bought Forza. But GT5P has helped PD resolve issues that would have created great dissatisfaction. I am thankful for them for that.

I think the mindset of "release it ASAP and we can patch it later" is ruining games of today. Because by the time it is patched to the level of perfection, people have lost interest in the game and move onto the sequel. Forza 2 is absolutely brilliant, and while Forza 3 has improved on many areas, it has got worse in many areas too.

I really hope PD doesn't pull off a shocker of a game like Turn10 have done.

Turn 10 is beginning to pay a lot more attention to detail as is evident within FM3.

Lol. Just lol.

Particular people being blind or simply refusing to acknowledge how good FM3 looks now (miles better than FM2) or how much GT inspiration is apparent in the game (I mean, who says giving a nod to the people who influenced you is a bad thing?). Of course it doesn't look as good as GT5 does/will, that's the equivalent of me saying Resistance 2, Fallout 3 or even MGS4 don't look anywhere near as flushed, vibrant or just plain out as good-looking as Crysis, Assassin's Creed 2 or Lost Planet does using the DX10 API, of course it doesn't. The PS3 simply has more throughput at hand as does a custom PC.

Comparing consoles that have grossly outdated hardware to PCs with new hardware is hardly fair.

I'm waiting for GT5 just as much as the next guy, hell, perhaps even moreso...but there's no reason for me to blatantly talk out of my ass and claim FM3 sucks for this and that reason when GT or other games before it have had the same exact problems.

For example...

FM3 has a retarded lap validation/invalidation mechanic where if you so much as clip a corner or the AI rams into you (and they will unless you pull off away from them) the lap can't be validated for the leaderboards; just as Gran Turismo has a retarded penalty system where pretty much the same occurs, more or less, with a heightened emphasis on the AI.

It's not directed toward anyone, but all I'm saying is I criticize equally...I'm not going to excuse one just because I like it more than the other.

When GT5 comes out you can critiscise the hell out of its faults all you like. Its called constructive critiscism. I'm not directing this at you because i know you don't mean it like this, but some people are critiscising PD for a game they havn't completed yet which is kind of out of order.