Has Forza 3 suppressed you appetite for GT5?

[TokyoDrift]

I haven't discussed a thing, so don't bring me into one of your long posts about what you think of either game.

All I did was point out that the "turtle rollover" videos are not Turn10 faults, but fanboys manipulating the physics engine.

If the physics engine was modestly realistic, it would not allow such manipulations now would it?

 

[Terronium-12]

Comparing consoles that have grossly outdated hardware to PCs with new hardware is hardly fair.

I could say the same for the people whose first words are "That doesn't look as good as GT5 does!!!"

 

[Seismica]

I could say the same for the people whose first words are "That doesn't look as good as GT5 does!!!"

Well, it doesn't Its close though.

But that reflects the closeness in ability of the consoles, PD have only had slightly better hardware to work with, but the PS3 is just as outdated as the Xbox 360 is compared to a custom PC for the same cost that you can buy today.

 

[ploopsy]

LOL the damage in forza is kinda neat. I spent like the first hour on f3 just crashing into cars for fun.

 

[Seismica]

LOL the damage in forza is kinda neat. I spent like the first hour on f3 just crashing into cars for fun.

I love the damage in NFS and burnout too, hell burnout is pretty much designed for damaging your cars

We have yet to see damage in GT5, but no matter how good it can get, i still don't think it will be anywhere near as good as Forza's damage, it won't go as far. But then again, GTA4 is better than Forza for damage simply because the cars are fictional (well, based loosely on real cars) so no licenses to acquire, they could just jump straight into it.

 

[Terronium-12]

Imagine either of them (GT or Forza) with Burnout level damage physics, hell, even throw in a Crashbreaker.

Good. God.

 

[Taurim]

Here is some pictures of online play with friends yesterday. If you're interested, click on the links

http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/abarth10.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/r3410.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/speedw10.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/touge10.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/touge710.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/stang10.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/dino10.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/alfa10.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/tsukub10.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/gt210.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/e3010.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/gtr10.jpg

Pictures only cropped and color adjusted. No other editing.

The simulation is good and the online experience with private lobbys is great. It's the only thing missing from GT5P which could have added a huge interest to it !

 

[Devedander]

If the physics engine was modestly realistic, it would not allow such manipulations now would it?

Letting someone stop pressing a button half way through an action over and over and making a video about it trying to portray it as just how the game works? People alaways find ways to manipulate the game engine in the end... no game is perfect.

Here is some pictures of online play with friends yesterday. If you're interested, click on the links

http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/abarth10.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/r3410.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/speedw10.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/touge10.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/touge710.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/stang10.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/dino10.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/alfa10.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/tsukub10.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/gt210.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/e3010.jpg
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/10/05/05/gtr10.jpg

Pictures only cropped and color adjusted. No other editing.

The simulation is good and the online experience with private lobbys is great. It's the only thing missing from GT5P which could have added a huge interest to it !

A lot of screenshots I have seen recently have a very tilt shift look to them... the tremendos DOF, high contrast and saturated colors make things look like cool little models...

 

[Taurim]

Some friends have done this kind of tilt/shift pictures. Easy to do in the photo mode.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/6469/forza22t.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/7669/m5artcar005.jpg

 

[Devedander]

Some friends have done this kind of tilt/shift pictures. Easy to do in the photo mode.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/6469/forza22t.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/7669/m5artcar005.jpg

Hmmm interesting but I personally find tilt shift works best when the camera is far away but you still have massive DOF... better if it's from a high angle too...

 

[alonsof1fan91]

Hm i dont know, FM3 is really a great game and im happy for the xbox user, to have such an game.

But I wont play it :? I will play Prolouge (and mobile) till Gt5 arrives. Why? I like the driving physics. Maybe FM3, GTR2 and rfactor are harder and more realistic, but every time i take the 430 out in GT5P with my DFGT to hotlap in Suzuka, I can feel the difference...
It makes more fun!

Moreover, I dont need another game till GT5 cause i still got some work to do in GT5P. Im still 1,2 Seconds off from the 1 Place in the online rankings with the F2007 in London...

 

[Bank]

Yes.
If I wanted to buy an Xbox 360.

 

[Antti-san]

Has Forza 3 suppressed my appetite for GT5? No, not at all, on the contrary! Rant follows!

I really liked Forza 2 and have played it extensively, but Forza 3 was just a big disappointment to me. My biggest complaint about Forza 3 is that they really dumbed down the physics - so much that IMO, they could have easily called this game PGR5! Compared to Prologue, even the most powerful cars in Forza 3 are just too easy to control IMO, and this is with all assists' off. I know that Forza 2 sometimes felt like driving on ice, but now T10 went to the opposite end of the spectrum and gave the cars way too much grip. 👎

To me, the driving physics are the most important part of a racing/driving game like Gran Turismo or Forza, and I must say that even Prologue is already light years ahead of Forza 3 in that department.

The other major complaints I have besides the driving model are the braindead AI and the half-assed "rewind" feature. The rewind feature might have been an okay addition, if it weren't for the fact that you can't turn it off completely and you can use it as many times as you like. At least GRID limited the number of rewinds you could have based on your selected difficulty level.

The AI on the other hand... I know that T10 like copying PD, but this is just taking it too far! The AI in this game is just as retarded as in the earlier GT games. At least the AI in Prologue makes an effort to avoid you.

Not to sound too negative, the graphics are very nice, and the cockpit view is a welcome addition. I like the selection of cars (even though like 75% of them are from Forza 2) and tracks. The livery editor is great, even though I can't paint for the life of me! One thing that I do love about this game are the engine/exhaust sounds, which really have grunt! Other things that I liked were the wide selection of rims, and the wide customisation options. But autoupgrade? Here we go again T10!

Overall, I just don't get that kind of "feeling" from playing Forza 3 like I do from Prologue or even Forza 2. You don't even have to complete any certain events to get access to rare and expensive cars like in Gran Turismo. As long as you have the money, you can buy any car you want. To me, one important allure of racing games has been collecting cars - as in actually having to do some work to get them. Not so here. 👎 So yeah, unfortunately I think I'll be parting ways with this game pretty soon.

I don't know, maybe I would be more lenient on Turn 10 if they hadn't badmouthed PD for months. The definitive racing experience my ass!

 

[Lucas]

My biggest complaint about Forza 3 is that they really dumbed down the physics - so much that IMO, they could have easily called this game PGR5! Compared to Prologue, even the most powerful cars in Forza 3 are just too easy to control IMO, and this is with all assists' off.

The AI on the other hand... I know that T10 like copying PD, but this is just taking it too far! The AI in this game is just as retarded as in the earlier GT games. At least the AI in Prologue makes an effort to avoid you.!

Wow... people do think different in different forums. Nice to see everyone has their opinions, though. 👍

 

[deep_sky]

I like Forza 3. And at this moment in time, it is definitive. Show me a racing game with all the features that FM3 has, and you'd struggle, because it's impossible. There's nothing out there at the moment with everything FM3 contains.

GT5 may contain more, or it may not. We don't know yet. It has more cars that's for sure; but what I've discovered from FM3 is that the amount of cars simply isn't the be-all or end-all of the experience; it's all the other features that FM3 contains that makes the experience worthwhile. PD have a lot to live up to...especially when it's been in development for 5 years.

As for the whole T10 badmouthing PD thing, I don't know. T10 have been badmouthing PD for one reason only...to get a lot of attention and raise the profile of FM3, which they have succeeded in doing. Any time T10 have talked about PD, it's been reported and got attention; and then all GT fans get in a huff about it, thus giving T10 and FM3 even more attention by talking about it.

I don't believe for a second that T10 think PD are old or out of date, or that Kaz is somehow past it...especially when T10 have spent the past few months/years copying PD endlessly.

If you don't like what T10 has to say; then ignore it. Talking about what T10 thinks of GT5 only gives T10 what they want; more attention, more profile and more press, because over the last few months, they've struck gold.

 

[Lucas]

You do realize you have spoke the truth and only the truth in that post of yours, right? 👍

 

[Antti-san]

Wow... people do think different in different forums. Nice to see everyone has their opinions, though. 👍

Okay, I might have been exaggerating a little when I said PGR5, but to me the cars are just too easy to control, even on the "edge". Maybe I sound a little frustrated, and to tell the truth, I am, to an extent. Because I was honestly expecting a major improvement over Forza 2. Instead, I feel like T10 rushed the game to beat PD to the punch, and made the game too "accessible" to casual gamers. It's still an okay game, but just not my cup of tea.

As for the whole T10 badmouthing PD thing, I don't know. T10 have been badmouthing PD for one reason only...to get a lot of attention and raise the profile of FM3, which they have succeeded in doing. Any time T10 have talked about PD, it's been reported and got attention; and then all GT fans get in a huff about it, thus giving T10 and FM3 even more attention by talking about it.

I know that, but it doesn't make it right. I guess it says something about PD because they haven't lowered themselves to that level of attention seeking.

 

[hardvibes]

Tell you what...
This morning I bought the 360 elite+FM3 bundle. I immediately noticed aliasing everywhere, low framerates (except during races of course), flying carpet feeling with the pad (the first time I experience it, never had that kind of problem on ps3/pc with pad/wheel)... I played a lot of races using different types of cars, from toyota yaris to ferrari fxx, all aids off, then felt the need to STOP, quit the game, turn off the console.
Maybe I'm wrong but I think this game is boring. It doesn't have a "soul", you know what I mean? It is full of things and empty at the same time.
Too bad I cant use my dfgt with it.
The only thing I like about this game is the AI...and car sounds.

5-6 months left. I think fm3 won't do.
"Love of cars"? You love money a LITTLE more than cars, Mister Greenawalt. You still have a lot to learn from KY, padawan.


EDIT: not to mention the issues with the console itself!
-70 euros for a damn wifi adapter? No way I'm gonna buy it. Thank God I found a way to put the router close to the 360.
-30 euros for the component hd cable, and I need it just for the optical output because my hdtv cant handle 1080p via component, and my amplifier cant handle sound via hdmi. So I had to do this http://blog.wilcoxusa.net/?p=518 (what a shame for microsoft, seriously)
-Incredibly noisy fans, hdd, optical unit or whatever
-Automatic reboots everytime I switch channel (ex: tv or ps3) then go back to 360 channel. Another well known issue http://www.genmay.com/showthread.php?t=803048

Wow, not even 24 hours I own the 360 and FM3 and I'm already sick of both. I hope tomorrow I'll feel better.
Sorry if this sounded like a flame.

 

[Terronium-12]

Okay, I might have been exaggerating a little when I said PGR5, but to me the cars are just too easy to control, even on the "edge". Maybe I sound a little frustrated, and to tell the truth, I am, to an extent. Because I was honestly expecting a major improvement over Forza 2. Instead, I feel like T10 rushed the game to beat PD to the punch, and made the game too "accessible" to casual gamers. It's still an okay game, but just not my cup of tea.

The accessible physics have nothing to do with Turn 10 "rushing" FM3 or anything of the sort, it does have everything to do with wanting to attract more, and as I said in the FM3 section usually stupid people who don't really play racing games like Forza or GT...and we all suffer because of that. GT is going to turn out the same way.

With consoles, ultimately, there is no such thing as a niche crowd...only focus-based and there's a difference. Best we can do at this point is hope for a PC counterpart, which is highly optimistic, and if it does happen...the second it's shipped is the second the developers lose all credibility as everything will be in our hands...

Which to them is the end of the World.

...Talk about veering off topic.

 

[Antti-san]

Maybe I'm wrong but I think this game is boring. It doesn't have a "soul", you know what I mean? It is full of thing and empty at the same time.

I know what you mean, "soul" was exactly the word I was looking for earlier! 👍

The accessible physics have nothing to do with Turn 10 "rushing" FM3 or anything of the sort, it does have everything to do with wanting to attract more, and as I said in the FM3 section usually stupid people who don't really play racing games like Forza or GT...and we all suffer because of that. GT is going to turn out the same way.

You scare me! I do hope that since we already have two physics options in Prologue (standard and pro), we won't see PD dumbing down the physics of the full game altogether just to appeal to "casual gamers".

 

[TBR 427]

The accessible physics have nothing to do with Turn 10 "rushing" FM3 or anything of the sort, it does have everything to do with wanting to attract more, and as I said in the FM3 section usually stupid people who don't really play racing games like Forza or GT...and we all suffer because of that. GT is going to turn out the same way.

Thankfully they've built in Standard Physics for the n00bs, and given the old-times Professional Physics to play with.

Though to be honest, if you give players the option for both in arcade mode, and only give them the ability to chose in, say, the beginners races in GT mode, it should leave them at a point where they should be able to graduate fairly easily from standard to professional considering how many races in varied vehicles there are in the beginners hall. Oh, and maybe they've found a use for the B lisences.

National B = national lisence on standard physics
National A = national lisence on pro physics

same with the international lisences.

 

[Antti-san]

Thankfully they've built in Standard Physics for the n00bs, and given the old-times Professional Physics to play with.

Exactly, and this gives me hope! 👍

 

[hugo24]

Well, yeah... a few months prior to launch, we got word of the game's progression. You must have not been around to hear all the bellyaching about lack of news before then.

As for bug fixes in GT5, you must not own Prologue, because when there was a real problem with it, it got patched within a couple of weeks or less, sometimes that week. It's been patched several times.

Forza was giving info out at least 6 months before launch because I remember reading it before I went to Europe back in early July.

And also I do own GT5P, have raced the complete career and I own every car in Prologue including the F2007 in both colours, which anyone who doesn't play online could tell you how long and how many races that takes to do, and have played high speed ring more times than I wish to remember. Yes there were three updates if I remember correctly including free cars, but what about the big spring update and such that never materialised in the way expected, that happened because GT are terrible at keeping the community informed. If it were not for gtplanet and Jordan and Amar we would be completely in the dark for the most part on the game, at leats Che at Forza even if he does exaggerate posts online to let he community know what's happening. The first update for Forza was posted probably 2 days after the error was first reported in forums and we were told a solution not shutting the game down from storefront until the patch hits in 24 hours almost straight away.

I am definatley looking forward to GT but Turn 10 has done PD a favour because I am no longer coming here every day to look for new info, because unlike Shift Forza is a serious racing game which can cure my fix until GT hits.

 

[Devedander]

Tell you what...
This morning I bought the 360 elite+FM3 bundle. I immediately noticed aliasing everywhere, low framerates (except during races of course), flying carpet feeling with the pad (the first time I experience it, never had that kind of problem on ps3/pc with pad/wheel)... I played a lot of races using different types of cars (from toyota yaris to ferrari fxx) then felt the need to STOP, quit the game, turn off the console.
Maybe I'm wrong but I think this game is boring. It doesn't have a "soul", you know what I mean? It is full of things and empty at the same time.
Too bad I cant use my dfgt with it.
The only thing I like about this game is the AI...and car sounds.

5-6 months left. I think fm3 won't do.

Did you try the online features? Your 360 comes with a free 30 day gold trial (actually I think 5 of them per box so you could literally have free gold until GT5 if you don't mind switching names every month) and I think that might help you find more to enjoy in the game.

There is a definite adjustment period from one game to the other though. Either one just feels wrong after you have gotten accustomed to the other... which is really weird in my head as both supposedly have advanced math to back up how they run... so how can the result be so different between them?

I would think given a few hours to get used to it you might find more to like, especially if you go online.

EDIT: not to mention the issues with the console itself!
-70 euros for a damn wifi adapter? No way I'm gonna buy it. Thank God I found a way to put the router close to the 360.
-30 euros for the component hd cable, and I need it just for the optical output because my hdtv cant handle 1080p via component, and my amplifier cant handle sound via hdmi. So I had to do this http://blog.wilcoxusa.net/?p=518 (what a shame for microsoft, seriously)
-Incredibly noisy fans, hdd, optical unit or whatever
-Automatic reboots everytime I switch channel (ex: tv or ps3) then go back to 360 channel. Another well known issue http://www.genmay.com/showthread.php?t=803048

Yeah that's all pretty annoying... fortunately for those that like to hack stuff you can get a lot of satisfaction out of making a DDWRT wireless bridge or something, but you really shouldn't have to. The whole "can't have optical and HDMI at the same time" thing is just a scam from MS considering it is literally only that way because of how they molded the plastic and designed the port layout.

 

[Tenacious D]

All I did was point out that the "turtle rollover" videos are not Turn10 faults, but fanboys manipulating the physics engine.

Okay, fair enough. I'm recovering from a week long flu and have a touch of dislexia. I read the exact opposite meaning into one of Terronium's posts. Bear with me.

If you really are into racing games/simulations and if you can afford it : buy FM3 + all the package to run it (wheel !) and you won't regret it

I would... almost, almost say this. The reason being, some of the bellyaching in this board, and a few malcontents at the Forza boards, show me that some people are really picky about what they demand in a racing experience.

But I would say that everyone should at least try Forza 3, and yes, even with the plastic MS wheel. I will add that the livery editor and upgrade system has me all a-tingle, and this does blanket over a multitude of little shortcomings. And it's definitely something I'd love to see the likes of in GT5. The essential game, if a little grippy with the tires, is pretty solid. It's all I've been playing this week. And... uhm, I've even touched that rewind button a few times. Forgive me, Kazunori, I have sinned.

I can hear where Terronium is coming from. F3 is still getting the short end of the stick unfairly from a lot of people, lots of unfair criticism. There are things wrong, little bugs here and there - my wheel freaks out from time to time and pulls sharply to one side for a few seconds, for instance. T10 did make some really strange build decisions - no open lobbies?? For a game built around community features? Just weird. Yes, it's still Forza. It feels like Forza. I keep running into that oversteer gremlin here and there, which makes me glad there are no wet races. But the cool stuff really outweighs the bad. I still consider F3 the lesser game compared to Gran Turismo, but that's not the same thing as "inferior."

Forza was giving info out at least 6 months before launch because I remember reading it before I went to Europe back in early July.

....at leats Che at Forza even if he does exaggerate posts online to let he community know what's happening.

Well, you're mixing apples and oranges in your post. Yeah, six months prior to GT5's release, we're getting details from Kazunori. But you're completely ignoring how in the dark the Forza fans were, seven months out and beyond. Che was being so obtuse in his posts through this time, many of us weren't sure if they were working on Forza 3 at all. Heck, sonme of us were wondering if "The Next Big Thing" was even a racing game!

At least F3 gives us something to do in the meantime while we continue to wait The Long Wait...

 

[McLaren]

If the physics engine was modestly realistic, it would not allow such manipulations now would it?

What would you do, then? Have the car flip, and then just re-appear transparent back on the track? There's no way to accurate way to model rolling a car back over in a game unless you just let the car sit there and call it "Game Over".

So, let me know how PD models its way of recovering from a rollover.

Has Forza 3 suppressed my appetite for GT5? No, not at all, on the contrary! Rant follows!

I really liked Forza 2 and have played it extensively, but Forza 3 was just a big disappointment to me. My biggest complaint about Forza 3 is that they really dumbed down the physics - so much that IMO, they could have easily called this game PGR5! Compared to Prologue, even the most powerful cars in Forza 3 are just too easy to control IMO, and this is with all assists' off. I know that Forza 2 sometimes felt like driving on ice, but now T10 went to the opposite end of the spectrum and gave the cars way too much grip. 👎

Because the Formula 1 car, and tuned Ford GT are any harder to drive than the fastest cars in Forza 3, right?

You're obviously not that far into the game if you believe all the cars have way too much grip. I find it easy enough to lose a Viper GTS-R in 3rd gear around a corner if I give it too much gas. Same goes for a few cars in Prologue.

The other major complaints I have besides the driving model are the braindead AI and the half-assed "rewind" feature. The rewind feature might have been an okay addition, if it weren't for the fact that you can't turn it off completely and you can use it as many times as you like. At least GRID limited the number of rewinds you could have based on your selected difficulty level.

You can turn off the notice, and it's only used if you press it. If you don't want to rewind, don't press the Back button.

The AI on the other hand... I know that T10 like copying PD, but this is just taking it too far! The AI in this game is just as retarded as in the earlier GT games. At least the AI in Prologue makes an effort to avoid you.

Again, more lies being spread about the AI. The AI in GT do not give into your line unless you force them to, and they don't race with each other at all, just becoming a line of obstacles.

Very rarely have I seen Prologue's AI go as far as FM3's.

But autoupgrade? Here we go again T10!

Don't use it, then. If you want to turn your car, do so. You're not forced to auto upgrade.

I don't know, maybe I would be more lenient on Turn 10 if they hadn't badmouthed PD for months. The definitive racing experience my ass!

Seems to be a bigger part of the reason a lot of people discredit Forza rather than the actual game.

 

[Antti-san]

I'm not discrediting Forza, I simply stated why I was disappointed with the game. On the other hand, there were also many things about the game that I liked, and should consequently also be in GT (like the livery editor). You like the game, that's fine with me, I respect your opinion. How about you respect mine?

 

[Devedander]

I still consider F3 the lesser game compared to Gran Turismo, but that's not the same thing as "inferior."

Actually that's pretty much the definition of inferior

But overall if F3 as a whole package is good enough to make up for it's flaws, then that's what I think they were aiming for... an overall solid and positive experience greater than the sum of it's parts.

Week long flu eh? You aren't from West Ukraine are you?

 

[IsmokeGT]

Because the Formula 1 car, and tuned Ford GT are any harder to drive than the fastest cars in Forza 3, right?

I've never played Forza, at all, so I won't comment on it. But, I can say the F2007 is a lot easier to drive than a GT LM. That might not be the case with a controller, but those are 2 of the 3 cars I enjoy driving in GT5P and they are 2 ends on a spectrum of race cars (the middle is a 111R/Tuned.)

 

[Pierced Lead]

All I did was point out that the "turtle rollover" videos are not Turn10 faults, but fanboys manipulating the physics engine.

If there is a flaw in the physics engine, and the players [read: fanboys] 'abuse' it and find a glitch, then surely it's the physics engine which is at fault. Had it been better, they wouldn't have been able to pull out those bugs. This goes for every game, not only FM3, so don't start bashing me as a Forza hater.