Help me be a better driver, how would you take this corner?

  • Thread starter Sean Renon
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That's a naive interpretation of the FIA rules - which aren't all that clear anyway and open to stewards' interpretations - the McLaren begins on the outside once the braking zone begins then changes his line and dives up the inside. So to try to claim the McLaren has the right to space is completely incorrect because he hasn't done anything to claim the inside line until his extremely late dive at which point it's far too late to be expecting space because the Ferrari has already committed to his line as he's entitled to do.
 
But he's not picking the outside line. He does not commit to any line until the Viper and Beetle have passed. At that point he commits to what I would say is a late apex line. When he commits the McLaren is still behind and by more that just a bit. I do not see that he is being reactive to the McLaren in choosing his line through the corner. They commit together and from what I see the McLaren misjudged the situation ahead.

I've not read the FIA rules verbatim...or at all. If it is the case they state "how you get there doesn't matter" and only the moment of impact is considered that is woefully inadequate by any standard. If all we care about is the "snapshot" then this sort of dangerous driving, and I think we all agree it is by what I'm seeing in the discussion, should be OK and permissible and we know that it is not. Because how you get there does matter in every case.

No, the SR system is not currently capable of that sort of inference and taking in all the contributing factors. Current state I get that the Ferrari gets the penalty. But as we are looking back ourselves we can take in that info and use it in our "judgement" or the situation.

Exactly this.
I was focused on the first 2 getting around me clean, so I could take a late apex and hopefully have a better line/exit speed out of the S to potentially get around them again on exit.

With the McLaren so far behind me, I wasn't thinking about leaving him space to blast up the inside because there was no reasonable way for him to carry that much speed into the corner safely.
 
Exactly this.
I was focused on the first 2 getting around me clean, so I could take a late apex and hopefully have a better line/exit speed out of the S to potentially get around them again on exit.

With the McLaren so far behind me, I wasn't thinking about leaving him space to blast up the inside because there was no reasonable way for him to carry that much speed into the corner safely.

understood, but if you keep taking that turn that way that scenario is going to happen like that every time. you go wide, door open, bro gamers dive inside, you don't leave them space as you cut into the apex and contact. every time.
 
understood, but if you keep taking that turn that way that scenario is going to happen like that every time. you go wide, door open, bro gamers dive inside, you don't leave them space as you cut into the apex and contact. every time.

I'm not planning on doing this maneuver again, I've figured out my trail braking into that corner - and am more comfortable taking it tighter.
Also, it's pretty rare to have 4 people bunched up in that corner at that speed.
 
I'm not planning on doing this maneuver again, I've figured out my trail braking into that corner - and am more comfortable taking it tighter.
Also, it's pretty rare to have 4 people bunched up in that corner at that speed.

haha... that's actually how I learned to trail brake there, there were too many people behind me and I knew that straight line braking would open the door and get me rammed. I even try to get behind the wall as soon as possible so it can protect me.
 
Right, but what is our goal? Are we trying to learn the best choice of action to appease the GT SR system? Or are we simply looking for ethical peer approval that we are not culpable, which has no bearing on the game?

Fair point. To me, best course of action here would be to stay wide of the apex in turn 1 to keep the Beetle outside as well. This prevents the Viper from having the opportunity on that side and I think the McLaren would gain nothing either. Going into turn 2 where the incident occurs, leave only enough room for the Beetle, again preventing the dive from the Viper and not showing any opportunity to the trailing McLaren except the outside where he would not be able to make it around. Probably loses position to the Beetle in turn 2, may make it up in turn 3 to be side by side if the Beetle leaves room or ends up directly behind and in front of the Viper and the McLaren all running super close again into 4-5-6.

None of this is very obvious heat-of-the-moment but that's why we go back to review. Does the penalty/SR system need adjustment? Probably. But until then this is the best we can do.
 
Him being fast on that corner also doesn't matter. If there's someone in front, you can't drive like you're alone on track and you have to take a different approach. It is fair to judge an incident regardless of lap times because what matters is what happens when both cars are involved and fighting for position.

Quite true - and as we saw in the replay, there was no one in front of him as he got to the apex without contact. Once there, the outside car must give room - that is the rule as written.
 
Quite true - and as we saw in the replay, there was no one in front of him as he dove to the apex without contact at a speed he would never be avle to take the corner at. Once there, the outside car must give room - that is the rule as written.

FTFY

By your definition, dive bombing is OK. As long as you get to the apex with no contact and the contact comes only once you're there at a speed you shouldn't be, it's the other guy's fault. Logic.

Also, It's not "once there". For you to claim a 1 car width on the inside you have to be side by side with the car in front when the braking/turning begins. Not at the apex.

Read some FIA rules instead of making up your own.
 
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FTFY

By your definition, dive bombing is OK. As long as you get to the apex with no contact and the contact comes only once you're there at a speed you shouldn't be, it's the other guy's fault. Logic.

Also, It's not "once there" mate. For you to claim a 1 car width on the inside you have to be side by side with the car in front when the braking/turning begins. Not at the apex.

Read some FIA rules instead of making up your own.

Please leave the passive/aggressive tone behind - I didn't need my post "fixed" and I'm not your "mate" thank you.

I have posted in this forum the FIA rules as they are written. I also posted some links to the F1 code of conduct and a summary of the overtaking rules. I'm confident in my knowledge of those items.

1) FIA say a car may use any part of the track. There is no reference to lines, braking zones or anything else. PD could if they wish add further clarification but so far they have not.
2) FIA say all cars are responsible for avoiding a collision. No special requirement is on the overtaking car.
3) F1 Code of Conduct says once a passing car overlaps halfway or more the car being passed, they are entitled to room. F1 isn't a good match for GTS, WTCC would probably be a more appropriate comparison - there the accepted overlap seems to be less than half a car.
4) The speed of the overtaking car is subjective since we have no speed indication in the replay. The OP already said he took that corner too slowly and has improved his trail braking and now goes faster. In my opinion, the speed of the overtaking car isn't excessive, and they could remain on track without contact - in fact it rather seems the OP was excessively slow in this instance.

So given
1) The overtaking car remains on track - it complies with the FIA rule
2) The outside car turns in and causes contact - not in compliance with the FIA (or F1) rule
3) When contact occurred, the overtaking car was along side and therefore entitled to room
4) In my opinion, the overtaking car was traveling at a speed where they were under control and able to remain within the track limits without the need to contact the outside car (not dive bombing by the common online racing definition - no such term is defined by the FIA).

In GTS we have no human stewards - just the automated one. It judged the outside car to have caused this incident, it successfully enforced the FIA rules as listed above. We have 3 pages of thread for nothing in this case - GTS was working as intended.
 
Please leave the passive/aggressive tone behind - I didn't need my post "fixed" and I'm not your "mate" thank you.

I have posted in this forum the FIA rules as they are written. I also posted some links to the F1 code of conduct and a summary of the overtaking rules. I'm confident in my knowledge of those items.

1) FIA say a car may use any part of the track. There is no reference to lines, braking zones or anything else. PD could if they wish add further clarification but so far they have not.
2) FIA say all cars are responsible for avoiding a collision. No special requirement is on the overtaking car.
3) F1 Code of Conduct says once a passing car overlaps halfway or more the car being passed, they are entitled to room. F1 isn't a good match for GTS, WTCC would probably be a more appropriate comparison - there the accepted overlap seems to be less than half a car.
4) The speed of the overtaking car is subjective since we have no speed indication in the replay. The OP already said he took that corner too slowly and has improved his trail braking and now goes faster. In my opinion, the speed of the overtaking car isn't excessive, and they could remain on track without contact - in fact it rather seems the OP was excessively slow in this instance.

So given
1) The overtaking car remains on track - it complies with the FIA rule
2) The outside car turns in and causes contact - not in compliance with the FIA (or F1) rule
3) When contact occurred, the overtaking car was along side and therefore entitled to room
4) In my opinion, the overtaking car was traveling at a speed where they were under control and able to remain within the track limits without the need to contact the outside car (not dive bombing by the common online racing definition - no such term is defined by the FIA).

In GTS we have no human stewards - just the automated one. It judged the outside car to have caused this incident, it successfully enforced the FIA rules as listed above. We have 3 pages of thread for nothing in this case - GTS was working as intended.

I FTFY because your post was nonsensical. When stewards analyse a contact or a racing incident, they don't look at the single frame when it happened but the prior moments and what let to it. You saying "once there, the outside car must give room" pretty much justifies all the dive bombs because it ignores the way in which that car got there in the first place.

It would also have been much better if you had posted the rules themselves or a link to that post you mention.

When the McLaren starts braking he's around 3 to 4 cars behind the Ferrari. That's not racing for position. Mid braking he stops braking and dives for the inside line (changing trajectory) to close that distance by going at a higher speed. Then, he starts braking again (of course...). All other 3 cars stop braking and the McLaren is still on his brakes. This is how he "got there". When the contact happens, he's going at a speed that's not safe for anyone around him and he's still 5th (Ferrari 4th) when the contact happens.

The Ferrari and the Bettle were the only clean drivers there. The Viper bumped the Bettle and the McLaren dove into the Ferrari from far behind.

For him to be "entitled to room" he would need to be where the Bettle was, not 3 cars behind. And as we can see, the Ferrari gave the room to the Bettle, the car with which he was fighting for position. The Ferrari is in front of the McLaren, doesn't have to give him room.

A little gif where it's easier to see the messy braking, not braking, turning, braking again, hitting of the McLaren.

 
The overtaking car remains on track - it complies with the FIA rule

Irrelevant.

The outside car turns in and causes contact

B1A4DE17-D04B-4502-9E09-295264F8CD51.png


1. The ferrari has track position by some margin, he can turn in and block the racing line, it is his right, the Mclaren should have expected this.

You are wrong.

When contact occurred, the overtaking car was along side and therefore entitled to room

6754488F-C238-400A-8DE7-CDD0D9F844C3.jpeg

2. He got there with out using brakes, aiming for a gap that had been closing from ferrari turn in to apex.

Mclaren not entitled to be there see point 1. You are wrong.


In my opinion, the overtaking car was traveling at a speed where they were under control and able to remain within the track limits without the need to contact the outside car (not dive bombing by the common online racing definition - no such term is defined by the FIA).

The fact theres no brakes applied on the Mclaren see point 2 is enough to show you they are not in control of the car as they should be. It’s obvious there is going to be contact, the natural reaction would be to slam those brakes on? What does that tell you? He was aiming for the contact.

You are wrong.
 
It would also have been much better if you had posted the rules themselves or a link to that post you mention.


Earlier you said you had read the FIA rules, now you wish for me to post links for you... Rather lazy on your part and you're taking part in this conversation without accurate information, which also makes your assessment incorrect. Anyway, in the interests of helping people improve their knowledge, I'll post these yet again :

Read Appendix L
https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/123

And (F1 specific)
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/

Oh, and F1 analysis - it's old but makes somer interesting points
http://atlasf1.autosport.com/99/san/tytler.html

F1 isn't the best comparison, but there is not so much written about other series.

Unfortunately everything else you wrote is based on bad information, so once you've read those, you may reply with specific rules information.

Irrelevant.

View attachment 691989

1. The ferrari has track position by some margin, he can turn in and block the racing line, it is his right, the Mclaren should have expected this.

You are wrong.



View attachment 691990

2. He got there with out using brakes, aiming for a gap that had been closing from ferrari turn in to apex.

Mclaren not entitled to be there see point 1. You are wrong.




The fact theres no brakes applied on the Mclaren see point 2 is enough to show you they are not in control of the car as they should be. It’s obvious there is going to be contact, the natural reaction would be to slam those brakes on? What does that tell you? He was aiming for the contact.

You are wrong.

If you wish to present this a rebuttal you'll need to post the rules to which you are referring because I find no ruling which supports your opinion. GTS is associated with the FIA rules - those are the rules I'm referring to, and that is why GTS was right. My right or wrongness in this isn't the point - it's whether the game was right or wrong and in this case it was correct.

You refer to the car "blocking" the racing line. This is a poor excuse for 2 reasons

1) if the car is blocking the "racing line", then there is another part of the track not being "blocked" which is legal for other cars to use. The FIA rules do not provide any special protection for cars on the "racing line". So this comment is in fact irrelevant in the context of the rules of GTS. In the context of this corner - the OP wasn't taking the "racing line" either and confirmed as much himself in this thread.

2) You use the term "block" - again this isn't defined in the FIA rules - they only refer to a car "defending" a line. So I'll assume we are talking about a car "defending" the outside line as the OP did. That is the line he chose to defend - the other car is entitled to take a different line, as it did. It's only a matter of where they are at the point of contact to decide who is at fault. The overtaking car was far enough alongside at that moment to be entitled to space. So, it is the OP's poor judgement in this case in continuing to turn when another car was on the apex that caused the incident.

So, I'm afraid your assessment of this incident is inaccurate.

Whether you like these rules or not is a different discussion - for better or worse, GTS enforces what is written by the FIA and a little bit of the code of conduct from other racing series. Unless PD provide additional clarification or rules for us to see, we can only observe what their SR algorithm produces - in this case, the SR algorithm correctly applied the FIA rules to this pass.
 
RotorHed
Whether you like these rules or not is a different discussion - for better or worse, GTS enforces what is written by the FIA and a little bit of the code of conduct from other racing series. Unless PD provide additional clarification or rules for us to see, we can only observe what their SR algorithm produces - in this case, the SR algorithm correctly applied the FIA rules to this pass.

He got a penalty due to the fact he was involved in a collision, one car went off track, the other car gets a penalty. The game assumes (wrongly at times) that the driver that stayed on the track caused the incident and applies a penalty. There are many examples of this, and I have had the logic applied to my driving when I was in the right.

The driver in the Mclaren was never going to pull that up without bouncing off the other car. That is not an attempt at a pass, it is not respecting other drivers and should never be used as an example of how to overtake. If anyone thinks that Mclaren is how one should drive, I hope I never meet you on track as I don't find being punted and dive bombed an enjoyable way to race.
 
@Sean Renon

I have still been thinking about this incident more and had to watch this over a few times. I still stand by my point I originally posted, but that does not matter.

What has been bugging me over this incident is the angle your car and the McLaren hit each other. Having the driver POV video confirms my thoughts. I still do not believe that you could avoided this incident with the McLaren driver, but it is the line you were taking into those 2 turns that sealed the deal on the contact and penalty. Regardless if the penalty is correct or not is in debate but not my concern.

When you committed to that left turn I feel you cut into the corner too much. Almost as a sacrifice corner to get you a better entry angle into the next turn with hopefully more speed. In that situation which I have been in during that exact turn I have never taken an angle of attack that sharp.

At second mark 9, you start the initial turn in. At this point it is looking like a good turn in.

Then at second mark 10 you could have let up a little on the steering here. At that point you probably did not see how or know how to attack those consecutive corners from your entry point. Unwinding the wheel a little bit there would have set you up for the next turn although not the ideal line you may have wanted to use, it might have gotten you through this incident with maybe a different outcome.

At second mark 11 right before contact look at where your car is pointed. Right before the contact you had a good angle and should have been relatively straight at that point. But as contact is inevitable you continued to turn into the corner which you kinda missed and then you got hit.

Now go to the first video and watch it. Keep pausing and playing from the initial turn in up and past how you got hit. Yes the McLaren driver had no care about you, your car or your race, but if you look at car placement there you can see you cut too much into that corner.

On a clear track, say you missed the braking point and turn in point at that exact spot you just did. Take that same corner with no traffic. If you cut into that turn and positioned your car where you were going for the exit of the turn, you actually would have lost at minimum a tenth of a second if not more there.
 
I am not fully aware of all the rules etc etc and do not have the experience of some here. But I hope I can summarise my interpretation quickly.

The initial line taken by the Ferrari to allow Beetle/Viper through was good but it then turned in very sharply and quite late(understandably
given he was letting others through). However, the McLaren was carrying too much speed and regardless of the angle taken by the Ferrari (unless he literally hugged the opposite curb) I think contact was likely.

all i would suggest is be a little less aggressive on turn in next time and hope the McLaren slows in time.

I struggle a lot with this corner as I can never get the power down early enough mid corner and have been tagged on exit before.
 
Earlier you said you had read the FIA rules, now you wish for me to post links for you... Rather lazy on your part and you're taking part in this conversation without accurate information, which also makes your assessment incorrect. Anyway, in the interests of helping people improve their knowledge, I'll post these yet again :

It would be useful to follow your own advice instead of cherry picking.

Earlier you said you had read the FIA rules, now you wish for me to post links for you... Rather lazy on your part and you're taking part in this conversation without accurate information, which also makes your assessment incorrect. Anyway, in the interests of helping people improve their knowledge, I'll post these yet again :

Read all of the information you post... this is information that has been posted by others in the past including me, your application of said rules as far as I can tell is as long as a car is alongside at the apex, regardless of how it got there it is a legal manoeuvre, this is ridiculous.

If you wish to present this a rebuttal you'll need to post the rules to which you are referring because I find no ruling which supports your opinion. GTS is associated with the FIA rules - those are the rules I'm referring to, and that is why GTS was right. My right or wrongness in this isn't the point

Your right or wrongness is the point, it is your interpretation of said rules that is questionable. So I'll play ball here is my rebuttal supported by the rules that you are craving.

if the car is blocking the "racing line", then there is another part of the track not being "blocked" which is legal for other cars to use

Correct, doesn't change the fact that the Mclarens route to the apex was always going to be blocked by the Ferrari. Irrelevant, What you are proving here is that the McLaren should have chosen the outside.

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/

"Who owns the racing line?

The most complicated cases naturally arise once we leave the straight and get into a corner. Both drivers would ideally like to the follow the quickest possible line — the racing line — but there may not be physical space for both drivers to do this. At the same time, drivers would like to obstruct one another as much as possible.


Some of you might be surprised to learn that once a corner begins, the FIA sporting regulations have almost nothing to say, besides ruling that drivers must remain within the track limits! Here, the sporting regulations defer to long-established norms for racing, which may not be known by all fans, and which contain significant grey areas."

The FIA rules do not provide any special protection for cars on the "racing line".

This is because Incidents are reviewed individually. Common sense. Whilst the FIA rules don't provide any special protection, it is understood that there are certain boxes to tick to decide who has the right to the racing line.

You use the term "block" - again this isn't defined in the FIA rules - they only refer to a car "defending" a line. So I'll assume we are talking about a car "defending" the outside line as the OP did

The outside line does not include running as close to the apex as the Ferrari does. The OP may have admitted this but this quite clearly not an outside line.

The overtaking car was far enough alongside at that moment to be entitled to space

Yes but how did that car get there?

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/

"5. Disputes over the apex
2303.jpg


Consider the textbook method for overtaking in a corner: the attacker takes an inside line, gets alongside the defender in the braking zone, and beats the defender to the apex. If the attacker is ahead at the apex, there is no dispute over ownership of the racing line. The defender must yield. But what if the attacker is only partially alongside? Who owns the apex then?

Different racing series have their own criteria for how far alongside an attacker must be to have a claim to the apex. In Formula 1, the norms have been explored and refined over the years as a result of drivers like Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher pushing the boundaries and exploiting any grey areas. Today, it is generally accepted that the attacker must be at least halfway alongside the defender when they reach the apex to have a reasonable claim to this piece of track. Moreover, the attacker should not have achieved this position by carrying too much speed to make the corner — this method is called dive-bombing.

Let’s consider three illustrative examples."

In this example the Ferrari did not get alongside during the breaking zone. Yes the Ferrari did get alongside at the apex, but as is written above, he got there in an illegal manner, one by not correctly braking for the corner that has been shown therefore carrying too much speed to successfully take the corner and race alongside the Ferrari who only has to leave a cars width, which he does. Also after watching the video it is clear that the Mclaren opens the steering just before collision, aiming directly for the Ferrari, this is will shorten the distance the Mclaren has to travel and therefore make it quicker to get alongside and also that is without even considering the half hearted braking attempt.

racing line.png



So above is an example of how the following corner could have legally played out, could the Mclaren manage this? No.


So, it is the OP's poor judgement in this case in continuing to turn when another car was on the apex that caused the incident.

You are wrong, it is the Mcalrens poor breaking, poor choice of track to occupy, yes the op could have avoided it, but did he legally have to? no absolutely not, the Ferrari has every right to be where he is, the Mclarens speed steering and angle of attack make navigating this corner impossible, and collision inevitable.

Your assessment is encouraging attempts at poor overtaking judgement the ferrar broke no racing rules as you quote them and I would challenge to prove how he did.

The only reason for the ferrari to avoid contact here is to protect SR racing, which is not in any FIA regulation as you keep quoting. Enough space was left, the Mclaren speed and angle of attack meant it was never going to work.
 
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IMO, one of the most effective ways through that first section is to brake as late as possible but to actually take an earlier turn in and to finish the trail braking close to the middle phase of the corner with the aim of having the car completely settled by then so you can take a late apex and use the inside edge of the kerb to pull the car in so that you can exit tight to line the car up for the right hander. Exit speed is far less important by getting on the power late coming out of the left hander because you have to come off the power again momentarily for the right hander anyway and lifting off helps get rid of the power on understeer......certainly in a Gr.3 car at least. The same method can be applied for the first corner, the first hairpin and to a lesser degree, the second one at Interlagos.
 
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Earlier you said you had read the FIA rules, now you wish for me to post links for you... Rather lazy on your part and you're taking part in this conversation without accurate information, which also makes your assessment incorrect. Anyway, in the interests of helping people improve their knowledge, I'll post these yet again :

Read Appendix L
https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/123

And (F1 specific)
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/

Oh, and F1 analysis - it's old but makes somer interesting points
http://atlasf1.autosport.com/99/san/tytler.html

F1 isn't the best comparison, but there is not so much written about other series.

Unfortunately everything else you wrote is based on bad information, so once you've read those, you may reply with specific rules information.

I asked for the FIA rules not because I haven't read them but because it looked like you were refering to specific rules without any quote or source. Also you said you had posted them in the forum somewhere. It would be nice to post a link to your source / post for everyone else, not for me.

Appendix L mentions nothing on overtakes or braking.

Your second link, as @rono_thomas pointed out, just supports my position that the McLaren reached that position by letting off the brakes mid braking to then apply them again when he was close to hitting the Ferrari. It's clear in the video and the gif posted before.

Today, it is generally accepted that the attacker must be at least halfway alongside the defender when they reach the apex to have a reasonable claim to this piece of track. Moreover, the attacker should not have achieved this position by carrying too much speed to make the corner — this method is called dive-bombing.

The McLaren was clearly carrying to much speed.

Then on your third link, this is also written:


Chapter IV: Code of Driving Conduct on Circuits

1 - Overtaking

a) "during a race, a car alone on the track may use the full width of the said track. However, as soon as it is caught up on a straight by a car which is either temporarily or constantly faster, the driver shall give the other vehicle the right of way by pulling over to one side in order to allow for passing on the other side."
The first rule has many implications. This states that a slower driver should yield to a faster driver. There is not distinction between overtaking for position and lapping a backmarker. Inclusion of the word "temporary" to this rule also allows teams to order one of their drivers to move aside to allow the team leader to pass. It also allows a driver to unlap himself if the leading driver slows down.

b) "if the driver who has been caught does not seem to make full use of his rear-view mirror the flag marshal(s) will give a warning by waving the blue flag to indicate that another competitor wants to overtake."
This rule is designed to warn a driver who appears to be oblivious to a faster driver behind him.

"Any driver who does not take notice of the blue flag may be penalised by a fine imposed by the Sporting Stewards."
Though shalt not ignore a blue flag. If you do, you will pay for it.

"Systematic or repeated offences may result in the exclusion of the offender from the race."
He who make a habit of ignoring the blue flag will be given a black flag.

c) "curves, as well as the approach and exit zones thereof, may be negotiated by the drivers in any way they wish, within the limits of the track. Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be done either on the right or on the left."

Part one of this rule is both comprehensive and vague. At first sight, it seems as though you are allowed to choose any racing line you want and can overtake in any way you please. However...

"However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers such as premature direction changes, deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited and shall be penalised, according to the importance and repetition of the offences, by penalties ranging from a fine to the exclusion from the race."

Part two of this rule appears to be the FIA's definition of dangerous driving, which is not defined anywhere else in the rules. In effect it bans suddenly changing your driving line for any reason (including stopping someone passing). This part is also both comprehensive and vague, probably so that the Stewards of the Meeting have a bit of discretion.

"The repetition of dangerous driving, even involuntary, may result in the exclusion from the race."

The McLaren didn't care about the Ferrari who was in front and tried to get him by diving into the apex despite being too far behind. The only way he could get to the apex (inside of the curve) was to let off the brakes and dive - to then apply the brakes again because the speed was way to high.

So, I'm not basing my opinion on bad information. I'm basing it just on the same information as you are but I don't skip the relevant parts for this specific case.
 
From op point of view, penalty is not fair and i don't think he could have avoid it in that particuliar moment.

But he got the penalty because 1) the mclaren was inside the corner 2) op hit him (not the other way)
Insiders always have priority in gts.
 
Your assessment is encouraging attempts at poor overtaking judgement the ferrar broke no racing rules as you quote them and I would challenge to prove how he did.

.

That's why divebombing will continue. Because giving priority to the inside car regardless of difference in speed or trajectories taken is wrong. People will take advantage of the system and ruin other people's races.

Between this kind of logic and the *"if I'm faster you should move over" thought process which is prevalent, it's no wonder we are having a lot of avoidable crashes.


* Obviously not referring to lapped cars.
 
Insiders always have priority in gts.

I don't believe this to be true. I have defended my line against drivers around the outside of corners, we have made contact, the outside runner goes off track, and I receive a penalty. Which is why I believe that regardless where the cars are or contact is made, if either driver goes off the track, the other driver will receive a penalty.
 
From op point of view, penalty is not fair and i don't think he could have avoid it in that particuliar moment.


How about keeping the outside line as real racing rules state people should do when they defend a corner -pick a line and dont change it-?
 
How about keeping the outside line as real racing rules state people should do when they defend a corner -pick a line and dont change it-?

That applies to fights for position. The Ferrari kept his line against the Bettle. When the VW and the Viper were in front he had all the track to use again since there was no one side by side with him.

The McLaren though, was on the same line as the Ferrari and then decided it was a good idea to stop braking, change line and dive for the inside (just to apply the brakes again 1sec later). He had no right to claim room on the inside since he was not side by side or half way side by side with the Ferrari when they started turning.

Dive bombing is justified under your idea of what is fair racing.
 
That applies to fights for position. The Ferrari kept his line against the Bettle. When the VW and the Viper were in front he had all the track to use again since there was no one side by side with him.

The McLaren though, was on the same line as the Ferrari and then decided it was a good idea to stop braking, change line and dive for the inside (just to apply the brakes again 1sec later). He had no right to claim room on the inside since he was not side by side or half way side by side with the Ferrari when they started turning.

Dive bombing is justified under your idea of what is fair racing.

If this is correct then no car coming from behind has the right to pass the car in front.....
But,hey,you seem to know things better that me (especially how I race apparently).

EDIT: For your information (FIA rules):

Article 20.3 reads: "More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off‐line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner."
 
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If this is correct then no car coming from behind has the right to pass the car in front.....
But,hey,you seem to know things better that me (especially how I race apparently).

What does "coming from behind mean"? Dive bombing is coming from behind.

The Beetle and the Viper came from behind the Ferrari and overtook him. Coming from behind is not enough though. You need to come from behind, put yourself in a safe position and side by side with the car you want to overtake before the corner starts. A safe overtaking maneuver is the responsibility of the car who comes from behind. The car in front can defend his position. Unless we're talking about flue flags, where the car in front has to yield and let you pass regardless.

And what I said applies to corners only ofc. On a straight, the car behind can just fly by if he has space and the car in front can't defend his position.
 
A safe overtaking maneuver is the responsibility of the car who comes from behind. The car in front can defend his position.

I do not disagree with these but...A simple Questions:
Did the Ferrari hit the Mclaren or the Mclaren the Ferrari?If we cannot agree to that there is no point to keep doing this.
 
I do not disagree with these but...A simple Questions:
Did the Ferrari hit the Mclaren or the Mclaren the Ferrari?If we cannot agree to that there is no point to keep doing this.

Thats simple, the Mclaren is steering straight at impact, no attempt to turn left.

Mclaren hit the Ferrari.
 
Thats simple, the Mclaren is steering straight at impact, no attempt to turn left.

Outside the track that is?.

Mclaren hit the Ferrari.

Ok.One car changed its line but the other hit that car.And that other should have
a.Not be there in the first place (I wrote it alredy even though the door was open)
b.Go off track because Ferrari changed his line/mind mid corner about protecting his position.
I think I get what you guys say:
"I am in front,I have the right to change my line mid corner as I please."
Its wrong by FIA rules but whatever.
 
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