How in the Frank Bruno did Forza III do it?

[blackjack]

Without Kaz's 'non compromising' standards to meet, I'm not surprised that other company's have managed to "get more out" in less time. For me though, it only gets me more keen for Gt5!

 

[Super T]

What can I say? Must be the indigo.

That or Kaz is scared of you too.

 

[Luminis]

If it wasn't for the fact that every Forza has pretty major issues, I'd give them a pass. In fact, in a previous post which might have gone the way of the delete bin, I was being generous and postulating that it could well be MS's fault for not letting T10 do their job. But after three tries, it's clear to me that they have this endemic problem of rushing just to get a product out the door, make a trunkload of cash, and hit the beach, just like everything associated with Microsoft.

Ok. Fair point. And, see, that's what's keeping me on debating with you. You're pissed at T10 for rushing things. Fine with me. To a certain extend, I am myself. Now, for whatever reasons there may be, PD is the exact opposite: Delays upon delays upon delays and they still can't offer a finished product. Yet, it doesn't seem like you actually mind PD screwing things up while you're at T10's throat.

On the bold part, I'm not quite sure what you're saying. I'll just give my reaction.

Both Microsoft and Sony are companies. Just that. Both have only one single goal, to maximise their profits. MS is after every dollar the can get ahold of, and so is Sony. Sony isn't a bunch of generous people who'll bring you an exciting game without thinking about their profits. They just happen to go about it in a different way.

I'm sure there are those in SONY who admire EA's approach to chucking out half-assed sequels every year, with marginal changes and, dare I say it, often questionable QA. But we can thank God that those in command have some respect for A Class developers like Guerilla and Polyphony, and grant them a certain amount of schedule leeway.

Do you honestly think that has something, anything, to do with respect towards the developers? It's just a different way from, say, EA to harvest as much cash as possible.

On the Standars Car issue, I hope you understand that by now so I don't have to revisit it.

On the first bold, no. Really, four hours of my life wasted. Plus. Unnecessarily. On top of that, for images which Microsoft screwed up. Amd I stull wasn't done. Just trying to get three or four images transferred through that idiotic MS gauntlet to a file sharing site. And yes, I know how to do it. I also have enough sense to see my life slipping away grain by grain while I watch the 360 bogg through a file folder.

I don't quite get what your problem is. Take a picture, upload it to your storefront. Get on your PC, head over to FM.net, download the photo. Done. In less than 10 minutes. Sorry, but I refuse to believe that someone can't get that done. A ten year old could. But since you're talking about file folder (wth?) I'm under the impression you didn't know how to do it. Which leads me to think that you are either inflating this whole issue to have something to rant about, or that you're just pinning your own mistakes on T10/MS. In any case, raging about not getting something that easy done does make it look like you're just out to find something to complain about, which, in turn, makes you appear biased.
If you really couldn't figure out how to do it (and didn't get heelp at the FM.net forums), I apologise. It just seems so very unlikely.
On the second bold, that's kind of a stretch. "You really should appreciate what you've got, because right now, that's all there is"? Really?? I find that to be a pretty thin argument.

So, it should be okay for Turn 10 to put out a game in which even racing is gimped to the point you can't treat it seriously, just because GT5 has two classes of cars in it.

I mean, this is what you're saying.

What I am saying is that you're ranting about Forza's every mistake. Which is, by itself, fine with me. Yet, you seem to cut PD incredible amounts of slack.

It seems like some of you are like Devedander, miffed that we aren't as upset by this 800 Standard Car issue as he is. That after a while, we shrugged and said, "Well, you know, those cars really do look pretty darn good." That no, we're supposed to be as cranky as he is, and about to tear Jordan's board down and threaten boycotts until some sort of restitution is made.

If you want to, you might read some of my own posts, my very first one, for example. You'll find that I'm not actually thinking of the standard cars issue as a big issue. See, right now, I love GT5 for what it's shaping up to be, but I hate PD for how they went about promoting it, about leading us on with a load of ambiguous statements and very selective showings of GT's progress and features. As I mentioned above, I just get the feeling that PD can do whatever they damn well please, that it's going to be shrugged of and that people are acting like nothing ever happened.

You seem stunned that we don't treat this just exactly like the broken online racing situation in Forza 3 in which you find yourself in last place because you didn't give your car an AWD upgrade.

I'll give you that. It's the one big flaw that's bothering me with Forza as well.

If you prefer a game that's more full of cars of similar quality - and a lot buggier - well, that's your decision. If GT5's 800 Standard cars give you gas, I'm sure you'll deal with it in some form or fashion. You might wish that Kazunori had farmed out work to shops in third world countries too, but I'm glad he didn't. We both play these series, and we both deal with the issues in our own way. But the issues aren't the same at all. We react to then differently, and we deal with them differently too.

To keep this short:
Reacting to all of the flaws of one series, but to not react to the others at all, even if they're less glaring in comparison to you, seems like a very biased stance towards the whole subject. It seems like a huge "Leave Polyphony alone!"-scream while still butchering Turn10 for Forza's flaws.

Maybe Forza 4 will finally be a quality game through and through, in which case, woo, now we can get down to actual nitpicking and fanboy bragging, and maybe even enjoy both on a true level playing field. But... you know, T10 doesn't have that kind of track record, so we'll have to see.

I'll better don't get into PD's track records and what it forebodes for GT6. Or even some of the features in GT5 that have been announced but are still unseen as of now.

 

[SomeStrangeSin]

I think that gran turismo has more pixels in there cars then does forza there fore it takes longer to develope a car in gran turismo then forza.

 

[Spagetti69]

I'm thinking that even after 5 or 6 years dev time. This game is still being rushed at the end with various polishing, cars to be released as DLC upon release of the game and Kaz not sure if certain elements are to be added yet.

I'm almost certain, in my opinion atleast. That this game will ship with bugs, glitches.
I'm not swiping at PD.
The impression I get from sone members of the forum is that PD has been taking their time to perfect the game.
The impression I get from PD/Sony is that their still rushing to get the game out!!!?

 

[Luminis]

Ok, this is completely off topic, but...
I think that "How in the Frank Zappa" has even more potential to become a classic than "How in the Frank Drebin".
"How in the Frank" seems to be a great line, whatever last name you add to is 👍

 

[Spagetti69]

Enstein......

 

[James2097]

Speaking frankly, brilliant thread title. Every single GT has had some bugs. I'm expecting very few highly visible ones though. In a game-breaking sense.

Apart from the work experience boy at PD accidentally deleting all their car model data so they had to start work from scratch just before prologue...

But only somewhat joking, I actually have a sneaking suspicion that when prologue came out - what was included in it was literally all PD had done, apart from the Tokyo track.

That is the only acceptable excuse for the shoe-horned in GT4 standard models (if the standard cars really are that basic)!!

 

[Feschka]

forza just 👎

please leave Frank out of it

 

[HLRJigsaw]

Words can't describe how much I'm looking forward to GT5 to come out. I don't think PD is the hold up for GT5 coming out. I think Sony is.. GT5P sold alot, so much that they put a "Greatest Hits" tag on it. Why put out a new game if the old one is still selling. Personally I don't do Prologues, I only buy full games. Thats just me...If you bought GT5P and had fun then I say "Cheers".

FM3 on the whole is a good game. Any of its problems by themselves are not big. The real trouble is there is so many of them. That and they really **** on there core players.

Turn Ten may rush things out but PD takes too long. Which is worse is up to you. I own both consoles and I can play the best from either.

Wow am I looking forward to GT5!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Akira AC]

So, because PD did a more detailed-to-life Nurburgring in GT4, it's better than Forza?

Ok. Now, here's the part where your whole argument falls apart.
This is a screen clip from the PSP GT that uses GT4's Laguna Seca.

Anybody who spends 2 minutes on this photo will suddenly see where PD made a big mistake on the accuracy of this track.

Hint: Laguna Seca isn't an oasis.

yeah because is better detailed than Forza the track is better,and remember from which game top gear make its game vs reality test, I also remember the following:


see what turn 10 did the mistake.
hint:bumps
and yeah, now you may thinking that because it has more bumps it means that is more real,well yes because in the real tracks there is deformation of the terrain,surfaces changes and irregularities on the surface of the track,in forza 3 the tracks(even the nurburgring have no bumps of or changes in the road as the real deal has,the same goes for le mans)in the numburgring there is a couple of jumps that is true but the straights are not perfectly flat in forza,while you comparing the landscape(true the grass is quite a mayor fault on the landscape and as we know nature changes and tree can grow in certain condition depending on the station and so on)is to remark that the with of the track is greater than the real deal(probably for more novice players)but it does kill the fun of pro racing.

just have a go on the nurburgring in the GT4,once done that an opinion would be valid(yeah is not GT5 but at least is the closest thing that we have to compare both game,track interaction and gameplay)so have a go and stop deflecting some facts

 

[retrostate]

I wish you guys would stop bashing EA so much. The games industry would be no where near as big without them. They have done so much in terms of next-gen technologies: Animation techniques, online technologies, character rigs, shaders... the list goes on. And not to mention what they do for young fledgeling developers.

If you want a real evil company to bash, go insult ubisoft.

 

[cobraagent90]

If you want a real evil company to bash, go insult ubisoft.

No thats activision

 

[sumbrownkid]

Ok, this is completely off topic, but...
I think that "How in the Frank Zappa" has even more potential to become a classic than "How in the Frank Drebin".
"How in the Frank" seems to be a great line, whatever last name you add to is 👍

How about Frank Lampard?

 

[Luminis]

How about Frank Lampard?

Considering I'm rooting for England during the World Cup, yes please!

 

[gtracedriver]

Dan's just talking about the physics refresh rate at 360Hz. It's rumored GT5 will run at 700Hz, but then again, Polyphony won't even reveal what GT5 is running at.

Regardless, Simbin have already surpassed 360Hz in their games, again, it's just for bragging rights.

No one said they didn't.

Don't know why Forza porting cars over is hierarchy, yet GT5 ports 3/4th of its cars & has some standard models dating back to GT3, but that's just fine?

He talked lots of BS there. But anyways. I mentioned about the upgraded version of Forza2 because some people think they did in 2years which is wrong and it lacks quality as well.

I do not mind them taking time as long as it has got quality. GT5 has taken lots of time than normal but I know GT6 will come in 2years time if they want it

 

[JDMKING13]

He talked lots of BS there. But anyways. I mentioned about the upgraded version of Forza2 because some people think they did in 2years which is wrong and it lacks quality as well.

I do not mind them taking time as long as it has got quality. GT5 has taken lots of time than normal but I know GT6 will come in 2years time if they want it

With the standard cars and the preium cars and all of GT5 features i will not be done with GT5 in 2 years

 

[McLaren]

yeah because is better detailed than Forza the track is better,and remember from which game top gear make its game vs reality test, I also remember the following:

So you admit that because 1 track is better than the other game's, GT is suddenly better.

That's not a valid argument then, when Turn10 did a more detailed & accurate Laguna Seca in FM over GT4.

see what turn 10 did the mistake.
hint:bumps
and yeah, now you may thinking that because it has more bumps it means that is more real,well yes because in the real tracks there is deformation of the terrain,surfaces changes and irregularities on the surface of the track,in forza 3 the tracks(even the nurburgring have no bumps of or changes in the road as the real deal has,the same goes for le mans)in the numburgring there is a couple of jumps that is true but the straights are not perfectly flat in forza,while you comparing the landscape(true the grass is quite a mayor fault on the landscape and as we know nature changes and tree can grow in certain condition depending on the station and so on)is to remark that the with of the track is greater than the real deal(probably for more novice players)but it does kill the fun of pro racing.

Again, not a valid argument because it could just as easily be re-arranged for Forza.

just have a go on the nurburgring in the GT4,once done that an opinion would be valid(yeah is not GT5 but at least is the closest thing that we have to compare both game,track interaction and gameplay)so have a go and stop deflecting some facts

I already have. Back in 2005 when the game came out.

Stop trying to justify your opinion as fact with silly reasons. One detailed track in GT4 does not mean it's a better game than Forza. Once more, by that logic, Forza is a better game because it did a better Laguna Seca.

You have some of the worst "points" for why GT is better I have ever read on this forum. GT has a detailed 'Ring, it's better. GT has helped developed a real car, it's better. And then you tell people to play 1 particular course & that they will see your opinion as fact.

Doesn't work that way, obviously.

 

[gtracedriver]

I think GT5 is first real GT game on PS3 so, they can make next one faster. In 2-3years we will get new game which will cover, whatever the shortcomings GT5 will have ? Having said that I think GT5 will be epic and GT6 will better it.

Let us see. Right now they will just want to make GT5 as good as they can. Because many people are going to say it took so long for them to make this so, it better be really good otherwise they will criticize and find lots of faults

 

[Terronium-12]

Let us see. Right now they will just want to make GT5 as good as they can. Because many people are going to say it took so long for them to make this so, it better be really good otherwise they will criticize and find lots of faults

I don't know where you've been, but the game already has faults (from the way things look now, and I doubt they'll change) that people are acknowledging.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

I think GT5 is first real GT game on PS3 so, they can make next one faster. In 2-3years we will get new game which will cover, whatever the shortcomings GT5 will have ? Having said that I think GT5 will be epic and GT6 will better it.

Forgive me, but considering all that has gone before, your time predictions sound a tad on the overly optimistic side.

Let us see. Right now they will just want to make GT5 as good as they can. Because many people are going to say it took so long for them to make this so, it better be really good otherwise they will criticize and find lots of faults

This is just the natural law of psycological dynamics.

For every increase in time, there is an inrease in expectation. Not necessarily equal BTW. Like wind, more exponential on the expectation side.

Just a natural process at work.

 

[Akira AC]

So you admit that because 1 track is better than the other game's, GT is suddenly better.

That's not a valid argument then, when Turn10 did a more detailed & accurate Laguna Seca in FM over GT4.


Again, not a valid argument because it could just as easily be re-arranged for Forza.

I already have. Back in 2005 when the game came out.

Stop trying to justify your opinion as fact with silly reasons. One detailed track in GT4 does not mean it's a better game than Forza. Once more, by that logic, Forza is a better game because it did a better Laguna Seca.

You have some of the worst "points" for why GT is better I have ever read on this forum. GT has a detailed 'Ring, it's better. GT has helped developed a real car, it's better. And then you tell people to play 1 particular course & that they will see your opinion as fact.

Doesn't work that way, obviously.

then why all the discuss about,you want first to have valid opinions about why is GT series better than forza series, I already did a huge post about it explaining why GT is better and why GT5 has taking so long,since we are in the base of reason I take you to read the full post:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=128478&page=5

then you come up with two silly reasons to keep the arguing,without even giving a valid reason of why there is disagreement,to fair you should point out why don't you want GT5,why FM3 is better and why you justify your argument,because you just put a lot of of disagreements in each opinion,is not denial some of them are right but yet again some of them is just to keep the discussion on.

also you claim that those opinions and FACTS are not valid because there are silly and don't come into the gamming racing(about the real car development stuff you are right)but I have to say that we are arguing for a game that haven't come out yet,but it has show some hints of how is going to looks like in example:


even so the quality of GT5 prologue is matching forza 3,imagine what they can do on 2+ years of development

so put it at this way,you obviously will argue to this,is a fact but yet again show a valid arguing or reasonament why FM3 is better,if you dont want to i dont blame you but yet still doesnt justify also some offences to people that trying to put a good reasonament about the two games.

 

[Zathra5_]

I don't know where you've been, but the game already has faults (from the way things look now, and I doubt they'll change) that people are acknowledging.

Luckily for me, I find the so called faults laughable compared to what has already been confirmed to be included in the game and even less significant if any of the rumours about what will be included come true. Don't get me wrong, I'm not happy with how long this game is taking but GT5 is shaping up to be an incredible game. Not perfect but incredible nonetheless.

 

[gtracedriver]

I don't know where you've been, but the game already has faults (from the way things look now, and I doubt they'll change) that people are acknowledging.

lol the game is 5 months from release. Only few people have played the 2 min demo and the game has already got faults

Forgive me, but considering all that has gone before, your time predictions sound a tad on the overly optimistic side.



This is just the natural law of psycological dynamics.

For every increase in time, there is an inrease in expectation. Not necessarily equal BTW. Like wind, more exponential on the expectation side.

Just a natural process at work.

I think they have already got a good base now. So the next game will not take much time. They also said that next GT game won't take so much time. They would have some plan and Sony would have told them they want 2-3 games for PS3 this gen

 

[SuperCobraJet]

I think they have already got a good base now. So the next game will not take much time. They also said that next GT game won't take so much time. They would have some plan and Sony would have told them they want 2-3 games for PS3 this gen

Considering they have never gotten a game out in less than four years, I'm confident taking these "They said" promises to the bank would be a wasted trip.

Although anything is possible.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I think they have already got a good base now. So the next game will not take much time. They also said that next GT game won't take so much time. They would have some plan and Sony would have told them they want 2-3 games for PS3 this gen

For all our sakes: I hope. But reasonably... I doubt it. Why? GT4. They "had a good base" after moving to PS2 and the primary goal with the console-sequel was just to add more cars and tracks. It took 3.5 years. This despite the fact that GT3 was created in less than half that time, and provided said foundation. With how little has been done in regards to car models and completely new tracks for GT5, one has to wonder how much more they could really add in 2-3 years. And of course we might run into a storage issue...

My completely shot-in-the-dark guess? We might see GT6 in the tail-end of 2013. Or at least that will be the first delay

 

[retrostate]

No thats activision

I stand corrected, I always get those two mixed up. Poor ubisoft, i feel bad now all they've done is done some franchises to death

 

[Akira AC]

I stand corrected, I always get those two mixed up. Poor ubisoft, i feel bad now all they've done is done some franchises to death

you absolutely right driver SF had the potential to be awesome and then they ruin it the coma-change car s**t.its a shame for the driver series

 

[Tompie913]

Considering they have never gotten a game out in less than four years, I'm confident taking these "They said" promises to the bank would be a wasted trip.

Although anything is possible.

Never gotten a game out in less than four years? How about the two years between GT1 and GT2? Or less than two years from GT2 to GT3? And from GT2 to GT3 was a fairly major step forward. They were going to a whole new console. Why couldn't they expand upon a very solid base with GT5 in less than four years?

 

[McLaren]

then why all the discuss about,you want first to have valid opinions about why is GT series better than forza series, I already did a huge post about it explaining why GT is better and why GT5 has taking so long,since we are in the base of reason I take you to read the full post:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=128478&page=5

You don't even have a post on Page 5, so what am I supposed to be reading?

then you come up with two silly reasons to keep the arguing,without even giving a valid reason of why there is disagreement,to fair you should point out why don't you want GT5,why FM3 is better and why you justify your argument,because you just put a lot of of disagreements in each opinion,is not denial some of them are right but yet again some of them is just to keep the discussion on.

I haven't come up with anything. I've merely been debunking your argument every time you try to think of a point to argue on. Unfortunately, you make it easy to do so, because I can either show that your argument can be re-arranged in Forza's favor or you're just posting nonsense like developers having to develop real cars to gain someone's respect.

I also have never said I didn't want GT5 or that FM3 is better, so the "Put words in my mouth" game doesn't sit with me; I have GT5 on reserve & have had it that way for months. You're the one, though, who is constantly making up reasons why GT is better & then follow it with, "But we shouldn't compare the 2". In short terms, I'm reading, "Here's my opinion of why GT is better & now that I'm done, we should wait until GT's release so I remain with the final say".

also you claim that those opinions and FACTS are not valid because there are silly and don't come into the gamming racing(about the real car development stuff you are right)but I have to say that we are arguing for a game that haven't come out yet,but it has show some hints of how is going to looks like in example:

They're not valid.

You can't say GT is better because the 'Ring is more detailed. I'm not saying it isn't, but clearly Turn10 have a more detailed Laguna Seca, so unless you're applying double standards, all I see is a moot point.

even so the quality of GT5 prologue is matching forza 3,imagine what they can do on 2+ years of development

I never said it wasn't.

so put it at this way,you obviously will argue to this,is a fact but yet again show a valid arguing or reasonament why FM3 is better,if you dont want to i dont blame you but yet still doesnt justify also some offences to people that trying to put a good reasonament about the two games.

I'm not the one claiming either game is better. As of now, I don't know what to think of GT5, but I certainly know 1 track's detail isn't why it may/may not be better than anyone else.

If you want to prove GT is better, I would expect a debate on the game's physics or features, not that GT has helped developed real cars. That has nothing to do with the game.