How in the Frank Bruno did Forza III do it?

[Akira AC]

You don't even have a post on Page 5, so what am I supposed to be reading?

I haven't come up with anything. I've merely been debunking your argument every time you try to think of a point to argue on. Unfortunately, you make it easy to do so, because I can either show that your argument can be re-arranged in Forza's favor or you're just posting nonsense like developers having to develop real cars to gain someone's respect.

I also have never said I didn't want GT5 or that FM3 is better, so the "Put words in my mouth" game doesn't sit with me; I have GT5 on reserve & have had it that way for months. You're the one, though, who is constantly making up reasons why GT is better & then follow it with, "But we shouldn't compare the 2". In short terms, I'm reading, "Here's my opinion of why GT is better & now that I'm done, we should wait until GT's release so I remain with the final say".

They're not valid.

You can't say GT is better because the 'Ring is more detailed. I'm not saying it isn't, but clearly Turn10 have a more detailed Laguna Seca, so unless you're applying double standards, all I see is a moot point.


I never said it wasn't.

I'm not the one claiming either game is better. As of now, I don't know what to think of GT5, but I certainly know 1 track's detail isn't why it may/may not be better than anyone else.

If you want to prove GT is better, I would expect a debate on the game's physics or features, not that GT has helped developed real cars. That has nothing to do with the game.

well then you just want to prove points by arguing without having any basis or any side to take?if you don't have any basis or opinions then what the hell are you doing here,question everybody that disagrees with you?what will be the point of that?

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Never gotten a game out in less than four years? How about the two years between GT1 and GT2? Or less than two years from GT2 to GT3? And from GT2 to GT3 was a fairly major step forward. They were going to a whole new console. Why couldn't they expand upon a very solid base with GT5 in less than four years?

Because if you will notice, the process gets longer and longer, not shorter and shorter.

As I said, anything is possible, just not likely.

 

[Tornado]

well then you just want to prove points by arguing without having any basis or any side to take?if you don't have any basis or opinions then what the hell are you doing here,question everybody that disagrees with you?what will be the point of that?

As far as I can tell, the only thing McLaren has been disagreeing with is people who post nonsense. And it doesn't particularly matter to him what side of the nonsense fence they are on.

 

[SONY_55]

 

[aurelio_911]

^^ Oh my God! That's true emotion!

 

[Tenacious D]

Ok. Fair point. And, see, that's what's keeping me on debating with you. You're pissed at T10 for rushing things. Fine with me. To a certain extend, I am myself. Now, for whatever reasons there may be, PD is the exact opposite: Delays upon delays upon delays and they still can't offer a finished product. Yet, it doesn't seem like you actually mind PD screwing things up while you're at T10's throat.

I'll get to this in a moment, as this really is the crux of your, McLaren's and other Forza fans problem with my "murderous" posts. But I want to touch on a couple of details.

Both Microsoft and Sony are companies. Just that. Both have only one single goal, to maximise their profits. MS is after every dollar the can get ahold of, and so is Sony. Sony isn't a bunch of generous people who'll bring you an exciting game without thinking about their profits. They just happen to go about it in a different way.

Do you honestly think that has something, anything, to do with respect towards the developers? It's just a different way from, say, EA to harvest as much cash as possible.

The bold part is what I prefer about SONY's way. Now you probably aren't a member of PS Universe, or you would have read some scathing remarks I made about SONY the megacorp in the past. I do spot SONY a few points for not being a criminal monopoly, but that's not putting them all that much ahead of MS on the consumer friendliness scale. I have to fork over quite a bit to get a SONY studio multi-effects unit repaired, and it's probly cheaper to just nab one on ebay.

Anyway, you do know that SONY could force all their developers to stamp out Madden-like clones every year. Profits would be much higher for everyone. So, obviously the almighty Money isn't at the top of everyone's agenda in the Playstation universe. And I equate Forza much more to Madden than Gran Turismo. You may not, but that's fine.

I don't quite get what your problem is. Take a picture, upload it to your storefront... (etc etc)

Well, you don't know how photographers work. And it goes beyond just taking piccies.

See, photogs take lots of pictures. Sometimes hundreds. I do take a few dozen. They have to be saved. Now, this is where F3 breaks down. After a little over 120 file elements or so, of any type, the 360 begins to crap out. Suddenly the thing bogs when you scroll through the list. Before an update, it would be as much as 10 seconds or more just to load the next pic, but it's still slow. So you have to slog through your images to pick out the handful you like. Then you have to upload them to the Forza server, which is surprisingly slow itself. Then you have to go to the Forzamotorsports site and refresh your album and save these pics. Which unfortunately are now compressed and the color is frooked up and washed out. So you have to open them in Photoshop and play with each one, and hope you get it within the ballpark of where it was originally, which I just can't. Then upload the result to Photobucket or whatever.

Now, even if it was just one pic, this wouldn't take a minute. More like a half hour. And it's not just pics, it's decals, liveries, replays, anything. So maybe you say, "Just have a few items in each file folder." Well, if the stupid 360 had a USB port, maybe I freaking could! But there's no way to save anything.

What I am saying is that you're ranting about Forza's every mistake. Which is, by itself, fine with me. Yet, you seem to cut PD incredible amounts of slack.

See below.

If you want to, you might read some of my own posts, my very first one, for example. You'll find that I'm not actually thinking of the standard cars issue as a big issue. See, right now, I love GT5 for what it's shaping up to be, but I hate PD for how they went about promoting it, about leading us on with a load of ambiguous statements and very selective showings of GT's progress and features. As I mentioned above, I just get the feeling that PD can do whatever they damn well please, that it's going to be shrugged of and that people are acting like nothing ever happened.

So, you do want everyone to be upset. Equally upset. Just because? Why?

To keep this short:
Reacting to all of the flaws of one series, but to not react to the others at all, even if they're less glaring in comparison to you, seems like a very biased stance towards the whole subject. It seems like a huge "Leave Polyphony alone!"-scream while still butchering Turn10 for Forza's flaws.

It's not just me. Heck, it's even you, you essentially admitted as much in your own posts. I notice you didn't quote something I posted, so let me refresh your memory:

Look, suppose when we get GT5 and do a race with both Premium and Standard cars - yes, I want to - it causes the game to crash. Suppose laying down three layers of skidmarks causes the install to corrupt when you take a pic of it, frying your game. Suppose inadvertently entering a Premium car in an Online Standard Car Event causes the server to lock up and your account to get banned for no apparent reason.

If things like this happen, then yes, both games will equally suck. And you can darn well bet that I'm going to be joining the chorus of malcontents here demanding that Polyphony give us a patch within a week.

Maybe Forza 4 will finally be a quality game through and through, in which case, woo, now we can get down to actual nitpicking and fanboy bragging, and maybe even enjoy both on a true level playing field. But... you know, T10 doesn't have that kind of track record, so we'll have to see.

Hitting a little too close to home, perhaps?

And this is the problem I have with you and Mac. GT5 (most likely) and Forza as an entire series aren't equally flawed if you take off the fan-colored glasses. Missing reverse lights, skidmarks, lackluster and incorrect engine sounds, and now the Standard Car fiasco in GT5 is one thing. But look, I sincerely doubt that those issues will cause GT5 to crash or get you banned from the PSN. As far as I know, loading in 16 Premium Cars on the Nurburgring won't take 30 minutes.

The things I criticize about Forza? Those can mess up your day. Not al of them, but a good deal.

Maybe Polyphony could make you happy by farming out work to Viet Nam, but I don't see that happening.

And really, it's not my job to make you happy. I don't have to criticise GT and Forza equally. I don't have to like them equally. They aren't equal. They're roughly similar, but that's about as far as you can take it. I do like some aspects of Forza a lot; the livery editor and mod shop. Well, when they work right anyhow.

But saying "you have to love both the same" or "you have to badmouth both equally" just doesn't even make sense. I'm sorry, but I think this is one of the most ludicrous abuses of logic that afflicts 21st Century thinking.

I don't consider both games the same but different, nor their flaws, and I never will. If this upsets you, oh well. Agree to disagree or something, because those that will in either camp can probably be counted on two hands.

I've been thinking about this, and it makes less and less sense the more thought I put into it. I really doubt that Sony would force PD to do much of anything in the middle of making GT5, much less make a PSP game of all things. What I find more likely is that Sony probably planned on farming development out to some third party for GTPSP, and Kaz stepped in and said that they would rather work on it themselves than have someone else do so. That simply makes more sense, as it is much more consistent with how Sony has handled all of the other first party PSP games of PS2/PS3 franchises.

Which, if true, is admirable on Kaz's part, but still pretty short-sighted.

This is possible, and might have been hinted at in a past interview, but I can't be sure. But we should encourage SONY to fund Polyphony to do all that's required of them in the future to keep another GT5 from happening.

 

[gtone339]

lol.

 

[shadynader]

Opinions, assumptions and speculation are all good and well but i like to deal in facts whenever possible. I have started to build a list based on these facts of what we know so far. If anyone can see any faults with my list or want to add to it with facts from both sides of the argument, please do so.

Also i'm looking for clarifacation on a few FM3 things (the boxes are empty atm)

 

[Spagetti69]

Car customisation is that applicable to all GT cars?

Custom soundtrack Forza yes, as with all games on xbox to my knowledge.
Storefronts are missing too.

 

[shadynader]

Car customisation is that applicable to all GT cars?

Custom soundtrack Forza yes, as with all games on xbox to my knowledge.

I dont know about the customisation of all cars, I will add that underneath when the details become available. Thanks for the MP3 confimation. How about a track count?

 

[Spagetti69]

I think 21 and an extra dlc.

You forgot headlights, skidmarks lol.

 

[Strittan]

In my opinion, just the fact that GT5 has 16 cars on track while FM3 only has 8 is more than enough to out class it any day of the week. Weather and day/night doesn't exactly make it worse either.

 

[Spagetti69]

Yep 16 cars is the biggie really. Funny enough I not too bothered about night time racing. I would prefer weather as that changes how you drive and pit stratergys etc.
Day/night is purely cosmetic.

 

[Nattefrost]

Yep 16 cars is the biggie really. Funny enough I not too bothered about night time racing. I would prefer weather as that changes how you drive and pit stratergys etc.
Day/night is purely cosmetic.

It's not purely cosmetic as it affects visibility. It's not as drastic as the impact of weather on the handling, but it does make things more interesting. In theory, the lower temperatures at night should also have an effect on the tyres. It's not clear whether we'll see that in the game though.

 

[shadynader]

I think 21 and an extra dlc.

You forgot headlights, skidmarks lol.

So 21 tracks vs GT5's 20+ which one gets the green treatment? I think I will green both for now.

I will add The other two also.👍

 

[SlipZtrEm]

We don't have any confirmation on how far dynamic time of day is implemented into the game, and yet to see anything involving weather. It could be limited to a track just like the Wet tracks that came before it.

 

[Spagetti69]

It's not purely cosmetic as it effects visability

Hmmm, initially yes I would have to agree.
I'd warrant after extensive play I'd be putting in the same lap times as a daytime lap.
I do understand what your saying but I feel the weather if included would have a more severe impact.

 

[Terronium-12]

Well, you don't know how photographers work. And it goes beyond just taking piccies.

See, photogs take lots of pictures. Sometimes hundreds. I do take a few dozen. They have to be saved. Now, this is where F3 breaks down. After a little over 120 file elements or so, of any type, the 360 begins to crap out. Suddenly the thing bogs when you scroll through the list. Before an update, it would be as much as 10 seconds or more just to load the next pic, but it's still slow. So you have to slog through your images to pick out the handful you like. Then you have to upload them to the Forza server, which is surprisingly slow itself. Then you have to go to the Forzamotorsports site and refresh your album and save these pics. Which unfortunately are now compressed and the color is frooked up and washed out. So you have to open them in Photoshop and play with each one, and hope you get it within the ballpark of where it was originally, which I just can't. Then upload the result to Photobucket or whatever.

Now, even if it was just one pic, this wouldn't take a minute. More like a half hour. And it's not just pics, it's decals, liveries, replays, anything. So maybe you say, "Just have a few items in each file folder." Well, if the stupid 360 had a USB port, maybe I freaking could! But there's no way to save anything.

This might come as a surprise to you, but hardware is only as good and/or capable as the software that's written for it. And I'll save you the effort of your rather ceremonial go at anything Microsoft/Turn-10/Forza and say, yes, obviously someone screwed the filing system up. Oh, and about the USB port...the 360 has them. Three of them, in fact. Five, if you're only counting the newer model considering the previous ones are going to be discontinued after all of the remaining units have been spoken for.

As for the Forza website, well, that's just slow and has all types of problems - always has.

And this is the problem I have with you and Mac. GT5 (most likely) and Forza as an entire series aren't equally flawed if you take off the fan-colored glasses. Missing reverse lights, skidmarks, lackluster and incorrect engine sounds, and now the Standard Car fiasco in GT5 is one thing. But look, I sincerely doubt that those issues will cause GT5 to crash or get you banned from the PSN. As far as I know, loading in 16 Premium Cars on the Nurburgring won't take 30 minutes.

Over-exaggeration does nothing to prove a point, in fact it kind of makes you look like a hypocrite. And last I checked, you weren't banned from XBL if you were caught doing something unruly in FM3, you were only banned from online interaction within FM3 itself. What does any of that have to do with people being banned from FM3 online anyway? You make it sound like they just went around with the idea of wanting to ban whomever, whenever. Oh, and might I add...the only way someone could ever be banned from XBL as a whole is if, again, they were violating one of the terms of service frequently. You know, just like those who are banned from here for violating the AUP?

The things I criticize about Forza? Those can mess up your day. Not al of them, but a good deal.

No, it seems that they ruin your day. Because I'm still enjoying the game a lot, most of the problems I keep hearing about are online-based, which to be honest means absolutely nothing to me, considering I don't race online.

And really, it's not my job to make you happy. I don't have to criticise GT and Forza equally. I don't have to like them equally. They aren't equal. They're roughly similar, but that's about as far as you can take it. I do like some aspects of Forza a lot; the livery editor and mod shop. Well, when they work right anyhow.

No one said you had to, and no one said they were - at least I didn't. Sometimes I can't even begin to understand why people constantly rag on something, no one is forcing you to play it - just put it back in it's case and go on about your day. That's simple, right? I mean, I can't stand GT PSP, so you know where it is now? In it's case in a cabinet somewhere, same goes for the PSP itself. Although I'll mostly likely open the latter again come November.

But saying "you have to love both the same" or "you have to badmouth both equally" just doesn't even make sense. I'm sorry, but I think this is one of the most ludicrous abuses of logic that afflicts 21st Century thinking.

Maybe to you, but to sit there and criticize one game for a fault and yet excuse another for that very same fault (or any fault for that matter) just doesn't seem very...sociable to me. Earlier someone mentioned it being difficult to oversteer/drift in GT4 as opposed to FM3 - of course it was difficult to oversteer/drift because oversteer was practically non-existent...unless you tuned for it. You shouldn't have to tune a car for it to respond to mishaps the way it should.

 

[Akira AC]

by the way guys do you know why FM3 ask to install 5 gigs of info to the HD to unlock some online races and cars?

 

[Sivers]

by the way guys do you know why FM3 ask to install 5 gigs of info to the HD to unlock some online races and cars?

Including the Nurburgring but, hopefully, most people have the space so it's a moot point.

 

[Terronium-12]

by the way guys do you know why FM3 ask to install 5 gigs of info to the HD to unlock some online races and cars?

Online races are unlocked from the get-go, hell, they were never limited in the first place...so that doesn't even make sense. And, yeah, you're asked to install Disc 2 because all of the data couldn't fit on one disk - what are you trying to prove? Yeah, the 360 still uses DVDs.....

 

[Akira AC]

Including the Nurburgring but, hopefully, most people have the space so it's a moot point.

no just asking because the thing comes with two disc but,when you play with 1 disc you still can win and drive in the same cars without installing anything?

 

[Luminis]

by the way guys do you know why FM3 ask to install 5 gigs of info to the HD to unlock some online races and cars?

Some of the content is on the second DVD, as, appearently, not all of the game would fit onto a single disk.
Thus, you can only access all of the games features once you installed it to the HDD.

As far as I know, it's mostly cars, though. I installed it day one, so I'm not sure what you're missing out on if you don't install it.

 

[Akira AC]

Some of the content is on the second DVD, as, appearently, not all of the game would fit onto a single disk.
Thus, you can only access all of the games features once you installed it to the HDD.

no listen to this:

I bought the game last December,the box contains 2 discs and you can play with 1,the other one was to install data, I did the installation,then well I played,but last march I did an experiment so see if you can play with a disc and you can, I unlock all cars(to R3 class)and then I play with the cars that I had,with the cars that unlock and everything was the same,so I don't see the point of the second this(not being critic or pedantic just saying),if they supply 2 disc they could supply the thing with something else than cars(again just saying)if you still have forza make that experiment.

PS:I did delete the data from my HD,so i still dunno what was that for?

 

[Luminis]

PS:I did delete the data from my HD,so i still dunno what was that for?

Considering the way DLC works, you won't even get to see the missing cars at the car dealer if the data is not installed. Hence, you probably just didn't notice the difference.

 

[mykem]

Yep 16 cars is the biggie really. Funny enough I not too bothered about night time racing. I would prefer weather as that changes how you drive and pit stratergys etc.
Day/night is purely cosmetic.

Not when it comes to endurance racing. When it comes to 12 hour, 24 hour even 8 hour races, having dynamic lighting where the light source changes directions and intensity and going completely dark affect not only your driving style but your mindset. It changes the approach to a race entirely when you can't just jump onto a track unfamiliar. In short, it's far from being just cosmetic.

Just a quick visual comparison. The ones from GT5 are captured from the E3 2010 trailer HD video while FM3 are from Turn 10's own screenshot release. Obviously the compressed video would deliver less quality but you can see the difference in image quality is minimal. On the other hand you can see a slight but noticeable difference in the rendering of the cars and especially the lighting.

Of course these images tell half the story. Forza 3 is still based largely on FM2 especially when it comes to animation. While both games run at 30 fps for the replay, the animation and car movement in GT5 are more fluid and dynamic. There's a palpable sense of weight to each car where you see that a heavier car like the R35 GTR moves differently from a slightly less heavy Ferrari F430. In Forza 3, the sense of weight and body-roll aren't as well conveyed and you never get the sense that the tires, suspension and mass of the vehicle are in contact with the road. Little thing like these that add up to make GT5 a much more accomplished and compelling game than Forza 3.

 

[Spagetti69]

Are you saying you've bought everycar upto R3 class.

" scratches chin "

 

[Akira AC]

Not when it comes to endurance racing. When it comes to 12 hour, 24 hour even 8 hour races, having dynamic lighting where the light source changes directions and intensity and going completely dark affect not only your driving style but your mindset. It changes the approach to a race entirely when you can't just jump onto a track unfamiliar. In short, it's far from being just cosmetic.

Just a quick visual comparison. The ones from GT5 are captured from the E3 2010 trailer HD video while FM3 are from Turn 10's own screenshot release. Obviously the compressed video would deliver less quality but you can see the difference in image quality is minimal. On the other hand you can see a slight but noticeable difference in the rendering of the cars and especially the lighting.

Of course these images tell half the story. Forza 3 is still based largely on FM2 especially when it comes to animation. While both games run at 30 fps for the replay, the animation and car movement in GT5 are more fluid and dynamic. There's a palpable sense of weight to each car where you see that a heavier car like the R35 GTR moves differently from a slightly less heavy Ferrari F430. In Forza 3, the sense of weight and body-roll aren't as well conveyed and you never get the sense that the tires, suspension and mass of the vehicle are in contact with the road. Little thing like these that add up to make GT5 a much more accomplished and compelling game than Forza 3.

its has to be said that textures in FM3 are pretty poor compared to GT5,(when I get the pictures I will upload the)but you have seen the interiors of the GTR race car in the TGS,you can see the good quality texture of the carbon fibre and the cockpit view is pretty accurate,but if you have forza you should know already about the quality of the textures in the cockpit view in the GTR race car,the cockpit is not that similar and the textures are preety poor,you should see for yourselves.

 

[Davide93]

It can be a less important point, but even if FM3 has only 400 cars, this game has ALL of the major sport cars as porsche, koenigsegg and a lot of race car...
In my opinion GT5 has more useless cars, however it overcome in all other points FM3, for example in graphic, tracks and more.
I really hope GT5 will have DLC for cars and tracks.

 

[Scaff]

It can be a less important point, but even if FM3 has only 400 cars, this game has ALL of the major sport cars as porsche, koenigsegg and a lot of race car...
In my opinion GT5 has more useless cars, however it overcome in all other points FM3, for example in graphic, tracks and more.
I really hope GT5 will have DLC for cars and tracks.

Useless to you doesn't make them useless to all.

A lot of people (myself included) love the fact that the GT series has always featured cars from the most lowly to the fastest and mightiest.

Given that a complete car list for GT5 is yet to be released its also inaccurate to compare manufacturers, while the GT series has never had Porsche, it has had RUF and I for one would not swap a trip round the 'ring in the Yellowbird for any Porsche.


Regards

Scaff