How Shift 2 Really Drives (with videos)

[Imari]

The argument that it's not technically "input lag", while it may be correct, is splitting hairs. There's a delay between controller input and the onscreen response. As you said, it boggles the mind as to why this is the case, but the term is more than accurate enough for me.

The difference is that input lag on console can't be cured, apart from by a patch. If the problem is in the physics system there's the possibility that we can work around it by finding the right settings to mitigate or eliminate the problem.

That's why I'm splitting hairs. One problem potentially has a solution and people should be patient in case a fix is forthcoming. The other should have people returning the game to the store (if they find it to be a major problem).

 

[RomKnight]

Even if its physics is fixable but we need SMS for that...

 

[spapadillion]

Don't hold your breath for a fix from SMS. This problem, whatever you prefer to call it, was present in the original Shift as well and as such is almost surely here to stay. If the PC users are lucky enough to get community-made fixes, more power to them, but for console gamers there will likely be no help coming. Might as well either enjoy it for what it is or sell it on down the line.

 

[MitchZ06]

I played it today and yeah the handling is far far better than what people have been saying. People whinging for the sake of whinging....

 

[Spagetti69]

I played it today and yeah the handling is far far better than what people have been saying. People whinging for the sake of whinging....

You played on PC yeah?

 

[spapadillion]

I played it today and yeah the handling is far far better than what people have been saying. People whinging for the sake of whinging....

Yes, that's exactly what we're doing. Thank you for your extremely constructive contribution.

 

[MitchZ06]

I played on PS3 actually....
@spapadillion too many people splitting hairs over minute stuff, its a game afterall so why not get over it?

 

[pgagoober]

I played on PS3 actually....
@spapadillion too many people splitting hairs over minute stuff, its a game afterall so why not get over it?

Excellent contribution. I'm so relieved to hear we should all just get over it. Phew! Sorry, but apathy doesn't work for me, and neither does a sub-standard experience with anything I do, including something as unimportant as gaming. Settle for mediocre if you want, just don't expect everyone else to do the same.

Back on topic, I think some excellent points have been made about the possibility of reducing the lag through individual vehicle tuning. I'll spend some time working on this over the weekend and post with any improvements or otherwise.

 

[MitchZ06]

@spapadillion AND pgagoober its good to hear you both want something better (which however is all opinion anyway) so off you trot, start up your own studio and make something better. I'll buy it if its as off the hook as you want it to be

 

[Spagetti69]

@spapadillion AND pgagoober its good to hear you both want something better (which however is all opinion anyway) so off you trot, start up your own studio and make something better. I'll buy it if its as off the hook as you want it to be

Goober has constructively shown evidence to show his woes.

Perhaps everyone should be like you and buy crap, promote crap and talk crap.

 

[cypher2004]

I'm still on the fence with this. Sitting and thinking if I should buy it or not. So many conflicting opinions. Speaking about tuning each car for it to drive properly, I think it's just ridiculous. I'm not an engineer. I want to buy a game and play it and not fiddle around with camber or tire pressure.

Gosh, if only I knew what to do...

 

[Spagetti69]

I'm still on the fence with this. Sitting and thinking if I should buy it or not. So many conflicting opinions. Speaking about tuning each car for it to drive properly, I think it's just ridiculous. I'm not an engineer. I want to buy a game and play it and not fiddle around with camber or tire pressure.

Gosh, if only I knew what to do...

Try googling input lag Shift 2 and see what comes up on the web?

PC is supposedly better though.

 

[MitchZ06]

Look I stood there and played the game for about 30 minutes (gonna get hammered for that as it must be too short an amount of time for some of you to take my opinion serious...) and whilst yes it is still an arcadey racer its still above and beyond what Shift 1 was in terms of handling. I didnt notice the 'floatyness' of Shift 1 and the steering lag wasnt something I had to jump on the net and post away about. I know the tracks are wider than they should be, I know that the physics arent all SMS and NFS hyped them up to be but I do know that this game is aimed at all skill levels for arcade racers, not just the ones that nit pick the hell out of games.

Its not a simulator like GT5 but what it lacks in that area it makes up for in the amount of fun it produces as that was the funnest 30mins of gaming so far for me and I'm definately going to spend my hard earned on it.

 

[RomKnight]

hmm... i'm not sure "input lag" is an accurate description. Looking at the telemetry it reacts instantly so its not an input lag "per se".

But what the hell, there are so many misconceptions why not one more

 

[Spagetti69]

hmm... i'm not sure "input lag" is an accurate description. Looking at the telemetry it reacts instantly so its not an input lag "per se".

But what the hell, there are so many misconceptions why not one more

So the telemetry turns left but the car goes straight.

Fantastic.

 

[RomKnight]

It mean the problem is not with the inputs. Its AFTER the input. Somehow it seems the game engine receives the data correctly (no input lag) but its does not translate that input fast enough to the handling part or something.

Based on how i understand the words "input lag". Maybe its my english or maybe i'm being picky. Anyway, I can't explain better than this so sorry if I'm misreading.

 

[conath]

Well, when I turn on telemetry (PS3) I can clearly see input lag, when I turn the wheel the steering idicator does not move in the same moment but needs something like 0,2 sec to move too. On PC this effect is a lot less noticable (same 50% sensitivity setting, 0% speed sensitivity )

 

[Spagetti69]

RomKnight, what version are you playing?

 

[Imari]

It mean the problem is not with the inputs. Its AFTER the input. Somehow it seems the game engine receives the data correctly (no input lag) but its does not translate that input fast enough to the handling part or something.

Based on how i understand the words "input lag". Maybe its my english or maybe i'm being picky. Anyway, I can't explain better than this so sorry if I'm misreading.

I've had another thought.

We've seen that telemetry reacts instantly. We've seen that the game world (the car, mostly) does not.

The telemetry is graphically simple. It's part of the HUD that gets switched on and off. It makes sense to me that the HUD is separate from the "world" as it were, the car and the rest of it.

What if there was a delay on the display of the world? The telemetry correctly shows that the input signals are being received and processed immediately. But the world that you're seeing on screen is half a second behind what the telemetry is showing, and what you're inputting to. I'm sure there could be any number of reasons for this, the need to run the display output through filters and post-processing being the obvious one.

Basically, it's not that the control is slow. It's that the game is running it's display half a second behind what is actually going on in the physics processing threads. It's not input lag. It's display lag on the part of the console.

I'm sure someone can come up with a reason for this to be false, but it's holding together for me at the moment.

This problem is annoying me more and more as I move towards faster cars. You have to plan ahead so far to drive with it. It's easy in a Miata, but in a GT3 car if you forget about the lag for a second and drive it like it was GT5 you're in the wall. I'm tossing up whether I go for the GT1 championship now or if I just save it for later. This problem is all over the official EA boards too. They're going to have to make some statement about it before the week is out.

 

[pgagoober]

and whilst yes it is still an arcadey racer its still above and beyond what Shift 1 was in terms of handling.

Exactly - which is very contrary to what we were led to believe this game was going to be, hence this discussion. Try to keep up.

If EA had properly billed this as an arcade racer I would have gone nowhere near it.

 

[DareDevyl]

I started this thread over on the NFS boards here and I encourage anyone annoyed with the input lag on a console version of Shift 2 to post there to let them know this should be fixed.

This isn't a handling/physics model/tuning issue. This isn't a whining/complaining forum issue. It is about controller latency (specifically on consoles) and is a technical problem relating to, but not limited to, frame rate. Read about it here:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-lag-factor-article

The lag can be tested using the device mentioned on page 2 and I hope someone applies it to Shift 2 and publishes the results.

-DD

 

[Imari]

We can do it cheaper than that. Assuming that the telemetry has the minimum possible lag, you can do it easily.

Pull up the telemetry screen. Red bar on the side is the brake. Pull out to chase cam. Slam on brake.

Film that, and count frames. Even just visually, there's a lag. A big lag. It's unbelievable. Simplest possible test, and the telemetry and visuals disagree. I am shocked.

If anyone has a 60fps camera, please do this simple test. 30fps will do it too, but 60 will be more accurate. If you do the test, please include your make and model of TV so that we can document that too.

 

[pgagoober]

interesting, I thought about that too. So i've gone some extra mile and show you the telemetry.

apparent there is lag from the steering to the car responding, but if you look at the steering slider (lower left) and the tire load graph, the input is fact transmitted to the game almost instantly, however it does take some time for the car to react.

Awesome - that eliminates my wheel as the problem. The input is clearly getting to the game very very quickly.

So, temporary solution, add toe out. That's the same solution you'd prescribe for a real car which had sluggish handling, which is promising.

Good thought Imari - must give this a try.

Also - I came across a comment (I believe on the NFS board) from someone who said you can park the car, view it from the side and then measure the lag from input to reaction. They claim that it was still 0.5 seconds. They didn't provide any proof however so I'll have to try to come up with that myself. If that is true then it eliminates vehicle setup as a possible solution and would clearly point to some processing overhead before the game is ready to display any vehicle reaction. I hope that's not the case as it would mean the only solution is a patch from EA/SMS. I'll get back when I have the chance to make that video.

 

[Imari]

Awesome - that eliminates my wheel as the problem. The input is clearly getting to the game very very quickly.



Good thought Imari - must give this a try.

Also - I came across a comment (I believe on the NFS board) from someone who said you can park the car, view it from the side and then measure the lag from input to reaction. They claim that it was still 0.5 seconds. They didn't provide any proof however so I'll have to try to come up with that myself. If that is true then it eliminates vehicle setup as a possible solution and would clearly point to some processing overhead before the game is ready to display any vehicle reaction. I hope that's not the case as it would mean the only solution is a patch from EA/SMS. I'll get back when I have the chance to make that video.

Do it with the brake lights. Much more accurate. I've done it visually but I have to wait until tomorrow for batteries for my camera (it's 1.30am here).

I'm fairly convinced at this point that it's not tunable, it affects far more than just steering. The good thing is that this is gaining traction on the web. If a fix is possible, we should be able to pressure SMS into it fairly quick smart.

 

[pgagoober]

Do it with the brake lights. Much more accurate. I've done it visually but I have to wait until tomorrow for batteries for my camera (it's 1.30am here).

I'm fairly convinced at this point that it's not tunable, it affects far more than just steering. The good thing is that this is gaining traction on the web. If a fix is possible, we should be able to pressure SMS into it fairly quick smart.

I'll try to make some more videos later today. I also just made my videos public on youtube as they are getting some hits and by now I'm confident they are representative of a generic problem and not just one with my setup.

 

[DareDevyl]

The game is taking a beating on Amazon - see here.

Mostly PS3 users with the same issues as us. I am glad word is getting around - maybe if people are hesitant to purchase EA will actually look into fixing this.

-DD

 

[RomKnight]

Wireless controllers add lag inherent to the communication (why I never played FPS games with a cordless mouse)

The test should ALSO be made like already posted here by jj72 and imari (with a wheel) or a non wireless controller

my 2¢

 

[Imari]

Wireless controllers add lag inherent to the communication (why I never played FPS games with a cordless mouse)

The test should ALSO be made like already posted here by jj72 and imari (with a wheel) or a non wireless controller

my 2¢

Can you plug in the DS3 and remove the lag? I only ask because it's going to be a pain to get a decent shot of the screen and the buttons on the wheel.

 

[spapadillion]

I played on PS3 actually....
@spapadillion too many people splitting hairs over minute stuff

Sounds familiar.

The argument that it's not technically "input lag", while it may be correct, is splitting hairs.

Oh.

its a game afterall so why not get over it?

That too.

Might as well either enjoy it for what it is or sell it on down the line.

Glad we agree.

 

[RomKnight]

@imari
I don't think so. That USB is just for charging the DS3. I know this because i remember playing with it connected to my laptop (not to be on top of the TV)