Immigration

[TenEightyOne]

Looks like the Jews are bailing out of France in dramatically increasing fashion:

It certainly does look like that, especially coloured in red. Up to nearly 8,000 from the last peak of 3,000 is quite a rise... but a very small percentage of the Jewish population of France. In many cases it's secularism they leaving, we're told. That figure is limited to those making aliyah, it fails to count the incoming Jewish population, particularly from North Africa.

 

[BobK]

It certainly does look like that, especially coloured in red. Up to nearly 8,000 from the last peak of 3,000 is quite a rise... but a very small percentage of the Jewish population of France. In many cases it's secularism they leaving, we're told. That figure is limited to those making aliyah, it fails to count the incoming Jewish population, particularly from North Africa.

Have you numbers on that incoming Jewish population? I'd assume it's significant, else you wouldn't have mentioned it.

From the article, I note that "only" 15% are leaving primarily because of violence against Jews. That still amounts to 1,200 people.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Have you numbers on that incoming Jewish population? I'd assume it's significant, else you wouldn't have mentioned it.

From the article, I note that "only" 15% are leaving primarily because of violence against Jews. That still amounts to 1,200 people.

I have to stand corrected, I'd read that the Jewish movement from North Africa exceeded that total. I can't find good, quotable numbers... so I have to retract that.

While the figures we're discussing do show a staistically significant rise in the number of Jews leaving France for Israel (which is still a part of Europe in many ways) I don't think the number itself is significant. France has the third largest Jewish population in the world at nearly 600,000 and people travel in all directions. Many Europeans are used to moving from country-to-country to work and France has over 2,000,000 nationals living abroad at any one time.

Here's an interesting article on the figures - looks like they'd heard the same anecdotal evidence I had and that they equally struggled to match hard numbers to it.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Only time will tell if this mini-diaspora is the beginning of a trend or just a statistical anomaly.

 

[PR1VATEJ0KER]

When will we admit there is an issue ?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...turbating-historic-German-swimming-baths.html

 

[prisonermonkeys]

When will we admit there is an issue ?

I can see an issue with your source. The Daily Mail isn't fit to wipe your arse with.

 

[FoRiZon]

When can we learn that said harrasment can be done by anyone, not just so called "immigrants"?

 

[ExigeEvan]

When will we admit there is an issue ?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...turbating-historic-German-swimming-baths.html

If you Google "man arrested swimming pool" you get plenty of results for sexual assault, murder, indecent exposure and voyeurism. And yet they only seem to include this incident in reference to immigrants.

 

[mister dog]

I can see an issue with your source. The Daily Mail isn't fit to wipe your arse with.

If you Google "man arrested swimming pool" you get plenty of results for sexual assault, murder, indecent exposure and voyeurism. And yet they only seem to include this incident in reference to immigrants.

Here's another one for you, from Belgium this time:

http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/regio/westvlaanderen/1.2554452

But i'm sure it's just a coincidence no? Or native white men grab 10 year old girls all the time in swimming pools too?

Oh and look, 22 year old female worker stabbed to death at refugee center in Sweden:

http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=6353027

But hey, deadly stabbings happen all the time right?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

But hey, deadly stabbings happen all the time right?

Yes, they do.

The only difference is that the one you linked to happened in a refugee centre.

And yet they only seem to include this incident in reference to immigrants.

That's because they're giving the readers what they want. And readers of The Daily Mail want reassurance that the outside world is violent and dangerous because that means their own quiet and peaceful existences must be the pinnacle of civilisation. To the readers, this is simply proof that they are "right".

You would never find The Daily Mail running stories on immigration like this.

 

[novcze]

... that means their own quiet and peaceful existences must be the pinnacle of civilisation.

and it is, everyone pay taxes so state can fund scientific research which is crucial to human progress ...

 

[PR1VATEJ0KER]

If you Google "man arrested swimming pool" you get plenty of results for sexual assault, murder, indecent exposure and voyeurism. And yet they only seem to include this incident in reference to immigrants.

In the extreme case of a plane coming to Europe with 160 occupants, 159 of which are murderous deviants & 1 good person.
I am pretty sure you would say "Yes !, let that plane land here. We cannot pin the actions of others on the one good person aboard."

Ever time you make that decision, you pay a price.

 

[Joel]

Ever time you make that decision, you pay a price.

In the extreme case of a plane boat coming to Europe America with 160 Irish occupants, 159 of which are murderous Catholic deviants & 1 good person. I am pretty sure you would say "Yes !, let that plane land boat dock here". We cannot pin the actions of others on the one good person aboard.

Just sayin'

 

[Dennisch]

Euro Commissioner Frans Timmermans states that 50-60% of the refugees are economical refugees and not those in true need of asylum. He bases his statement on numbers released by Frontex. And if that issue isn't resolved, by kicking out the leaches, the whole refugee crisis could run into the ground.

 

[TRGTspecialist]

In the extreme case of a plane coming to Europe with 160 occupants, 159 of which are murderous deviants & 1 good person.
I am pretty sure you would say "Yes !, let that plane land here. We cannot pin the actions of others on the one good person aboard."

Ever time you make that decision, you pay a price.

Well, are 99.375% of immigrants/refugees coming into Europe murderous deviants? Clearly not - an "extreme case" like that is as irrelevant as trying to argue all 160 could be the next coming of Ghandi.

If you want to tell us "this is what's really happening, this is the reality", you'll need actual figures in reality to back that up - you can't do that with made up hypotheticals, or cherry-picked stories.

 

[PR1VATEJ0KER]

In the extreme case of a plane boat coming to Europe America with 160 Irish occupants, 159 of which are murderous Catholic deviants & 1 good person. I am pretty sure you would say "Yes !, let that plane land boat dock here". We cannot pin the actions of others on the one good person aboard.

Just sayin'

Mind = blown

I completely forgot how the Irish people basically condoned the genocide of native Americans by emmigrating and reaping the benefits of their land.

Thank you for that insight.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I completely forgot how the Irish people basically condoned the genocide of native Americans by emmigrating and reaping the benefits of their land.

Fair enough. You seem aware now, so that's all good. Don't forget their alliance to the slave states either, although that's by-the-by.

 

[Joel]

Mind = blown

I completely forgot how the Irish people basically condoned the genocide of native Americans by emmigrating and reaping the benefits of their land.

Thank you for that insight.

You're almost there.

The point was that the way you talk about planefuls of migrants is almost exactly the way Americans viewed Irish (and Italian) immigrants, and there was even a religious angle where the Catholic Irish and Italian immigrants were coming into a Protestant country.

 

[mister dog]

You're almost there.

The point was that the way you talk about planefuls of migrants is almost exactly the way Americans viewed Irish (and Italian) immigrants, and there was even a religious angle where the Catholic Irish and Italian immigrants were coming into a Protestant country.

Difference is that the Irish and Italians were able to integrate themselves, working for their money and being of 'European' culture which had many things in common with the settlers that went to America before. Not only do you have the culture clash now as these immigrants are Muslim, don't speak the language and have other values, but that most of them expect to be pampered and provided for.

For a proper comparison, you should take the viewpoint of the native Americans, as they saw their land 'invaded' by people stemming from a totally different culture with totally different values as that is a better comparison. And we all know what happened to them after the clash of civilizations ended...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

And if that issue isn't resolved, by kicking out the leaches, the whole refugee crisis could run into the ground.

Welcome to the conundrum Australia has been struggling with for twenty-five years: there are legitimate refugees fleeing war and persecution, and economic refugees trying to find a better life. It's unlikely that legitimate refugees will have their documents with them, and economic refugees throw their documents away. It becomes very difficult to determine identity and therefore assess their claims.

and it is, everyone pay taxes so state can fund scientific research which is crucial to human progress ...

So because you come from a failed state, which failed due to circumstances beyond your control, you are not at the pinnacle of civilisation, even if for all intents and purposes you are a good person?

 

[novcze]

Welcome to the conundrum Australia has been struggling with for twenty-five years:

First of all, I quite envy the Australians, you have islands and vast deserts, low population density, thus lot of space for all the refugees ... well done, but we in Europe don't have this luxury, so maybe that's why we have different views on the matter. (this is sort of joke if there is any doubt)

there are legitimate refugees fleeing war and persecution, and economic refugees trying to find a better life. It's unlikely that legitimate refugees will have their documents with them, and economic refugees throw their documents away. It becomes very difficult to determine identity and therefore assess their claims.

I think they know what is ID card in the Syria and even without it, we have Syrians or other nationalities in EU which can discern who is who based on the language.

So because you come from a failed state, which failed due to circumstances beyond your control, you are not at the pinnacle of civilisation, even if for all intents and purposes you are a good person?

I reacted on your condescending attitude towards Daily Mail readers, don't put a spin on it.

 

[Barra333]

First of all, I quite envy the Australians, you have islands and vast deserts, low population density, thus lot of space for all the refugees ... well done, but we in Europe don't have this luxury, so maybe that's why we have different views on the matter.

Australia has a low population density when averaged across the whole country because most of is basically uninhabitable. There is a reason that a huge majority of the population is found in a tiny fraction of the country. It is like saying that Russia is big, so we can put all of the refugees there - plenty of space, right?

I suspect @prisonermonkey's views on immigration have very little to do with the size of Australia, he is just a little more open minded and less xenophobic than some in this thread.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I reacted on your condescending attitude towards Daily Mail readers, don't put a spin on it.

It's hard not to put a spin on the Daily Mail, it has quite an eccentric pre-existing orbit to begin with.

 

[PR1VATEJ0KER]

For a proper comparison, you should take the viewpoint of the native Americans, as they saw their land 'invaded' by people stemming from a totally different culture with totally different values as that is a better comparison. And we all know what happened to them after the clash of civilizations ended...

I'm glad someone saw what I was getting at

I suspect @prisonermonkey's views on immigration have very little to do with the size of Australia, he is just a little more open minded and less xenophobic than some in this thread.

It's not about xenophobia,

We've taken a million people and doomed them to live like rats.
We should be honest & say we can take 20,000 max.

When will we say no, with all the die hard libertarians ?
If china suddenly became uninhabitable, will we be accused of xenophobia & bigotry in the face of having 1.5 billion Europeans overnight ?

 

[novcze]

Australia has a low population density when averaged across the whole country because most of is basically uninhabitable.

... umm yes, that was the point of the joke.

In former eastern bloc we make similar jokes which include Siberia because that is where Soviets put "undesirables".

 

[Liquid]

Euro Commissioner Frans Timmermans states that 50-60% of the refugees are economical refugees and not those in true need of asylum. He bases his statement on numbers released by Frontex. And if that issue isn't resolved, by kicking out the leaches, the whole refugee crisis could run into the ground.

But I am an economic refugee. I moved from outside the Schengen Zone to Slovakia, inside the Zone, because I earn more money and have a better life here. Should I fear being repatriated?

 

[novcze]

Difference is that the Irish and Italians were able to integrate themselves, working for their money and being of 'European' culture which had many things in common with the settlers that went to America before. Not only do you have the culture clash now as these immigrants are Muslim, don't speak the language and have other values, but that most of them expect to be pampered and provided for.

For a proper comparison, you should take the viewpoint of the native Americans, as they saw their land 'invaded' by people stemming from a totally different culture with totally different values as that is a better comparison. And we all know what happened to them after the clash of civilizations ended...

You can really think about this crisis as test of our culture. Do we defend our values and culture or do we bend over and let our children feel like this

 

[Liquid]

our values and culture

Could you please explicitly explain exactly what these are please? Be as specific as you like. I'd be very interested to read what you have to say.

 

[Barra333]

It's not about xenophobia,

We've taken a million people and doomed them to live like rats.
We should be honest & say we can take 20,000 max.

Yes and no.
European countries fit into two pretty broad categories at the moment based on their attitude -
1. We (EU) need to do something, but our country cant accept more than this many people - everyone needs to pitch in.
2. Go away

I will let you guess which one is tinged with xenophobia. Unfortunately, it seems that the countries who fit in category 2 are mostly the newer members who are happy for the benefits of membership without wanting to take responsibility for collective problems.

 

[niky]

Difference is that the Irish and Italians were able to integrate themselves, working for their money and being of 'European' culture which had many things in common with the settlers that went to America before. Not only do you have the culture clash now as these immigrants are Muslim, don't speak the language and have other values, but that most of them expect to be pampered and provided for.

For a proper comparison, you should take the viewpoint of the native Americans, as they saw their land 'invaded' by people stemming from a totally different culture with totally different values as that is a better comparison. And we all know what happened to them after the clash of civilizations ended...

Are you saying there were no problems at all with Irish and Italian immigrants?

There was a point in time where most of the inmates in New York prisons (where most of the Irish were) were Irish, and they were seen as a real problem in terms of peace and order. Then there were the Italians... hmm... I wonder where English acquired the term "Mafia"...

"European" culture isn't homogenous across countries, across classes or across denominations/religions (especially if you're Jewish or Catholic coming to a Protestant country).

All immigrant waves will have their share of problematic members. They will have problems acclimatizing. There will be friction. And there will be hardship.

Does that mean immigration should not be done? Immigrant waves in the past have boosted the US economy. Immigrants starting from nothing are willing to do jobs for less, and are willing to work hard, and these immigrants in turn need more businesses and services to cater to them. This has happened with each successive wave of (voluntary) immigrants in the US...

Beyond that, American culture is the result of decades of assimilation and absorption of many different cultures and peoples. This thriving dynamic is what made places like New York global centers. And that cultural absorption went both ways...

As for pampering, I don't doubt that there are some coming to these rich countries hoping for the welfare treatment, food and shelter for free... but by and large... economic migrants sacrifice a lot to move countries, both in terms of physical effort and hardship and in cold, hard cash paid off to smugglers and recruiters.

Travelling cross-continent is no joke if you don't have a credit card and access to discount plane fares... or even proper social services, health care, education or jobs. I've seen how much people sacrifice just for the tiniest sliver of a chance to "make it there," and frankly, I would never, ever want to be in that position.

I'm not saying "you can't make an omelette"... for sure, if you have criminality, you have to stamp it out, hard. I'm simply pointing out that dealing with a massive influx of immigrants is never easy in the short term (and sometimes not in the medium-term), but in the long term, if you play your cards right, you can reap big benefits.