Immigration

[mister dog]

Odd then that you need to throw the term bigot around at anyone who disagreed with you, its almost like it did mind.

Perfect example of pulling a quote out of context, i didn't "throw the term bigot around at anyone who disagreed with me", i said they want to label me like one and in the process they are acting like bigots themselves...

 

[Scaff]

Perfect example of pulling a quote out of context, i didn't "throw the term bigot around at anyone who disagreed with me", i said they want to label me like one and in the process they are acting like bigots themselves...

No they are not acting like bigots by accusing you of being a bigot.

To be acting like bigots they would have to be calling for your rights to be curtailed based upon an a factor that they don't apply to any other groups, which they are not doing. As such by saying anyone who calls you a bigot (rightly or wrongly) does not in the process become a bigot or is even acting like one.

So yes you are throwing the term bigot around (as they may well being doing too).

Oh and what you said was....

"I can't stop people making far fetched assumptions when that suits their agendas. They will pull things out of context whatever you post trying to label you as a bigot, whilst they don't realize they are acting like bigots themselves in the process."

...which seems to cast the net very, very wide.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I can't stop people making far fetched assumptions when that suits their agendas.

You can stop being vague and obstructionist in your comments. You accuse people of taking quote out of context, but you provide no context for your comments to begin with. To hear you tell it, everyone who has disagreed with you has fundamentally misinterpreted and deliberately misrepresented your comments, so the above quote amounts to "any flaws in my post are not important because you can't guess what I was thinking when I wrote them".

 

[squadops]

Mister dog's posts are not hard to understand, easy to twist maybe but not hard to understand. He says what he means and means what he says.

The fact he's been somewhat left open to the piranhas is entertaining to me as he exposes stumbling blocks.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Yes, his meaning is crystal clear - he gives no context to the story, does not bother to explain its significance, and as has been pointed out, misrepresents it by implying that there is a plot to withhold the report when in reality it took two months for the publication to pick up.

10 year old boy raped by refugee in public pool Vienna, refugee states it was a 'sexual emergency':

http://www.news.com.au/world/europe...a/news-story/69abed188e157e2f425d8c204fa50f17

Only took them 2 months to break the news, as the incident dates from December 2nd...

If he's "exposing stumbling blocks", he's exposing the stumbling blocks of the political right. Or haven't you been reading @Scaff's posts?

 

[tarnheld]

"Yes, theoretical we have freedom of speech in Germany."
"But guess what happens when you really speak out?"
"Instantly you have a bunch of people disagreeing with you!"

 

[niky]

Welcome to the free world?

The white races of Europe must perpetually bear the guilt and shame of colonialization and empire. Due to great wealth, liberalism, materialism, individualism and probably a certain amount of narcissism, Europeans have inchoately decided to stop breeding children. But according to the tenets of capitalism, perpetual growth of debt and economic output are absolutely essential; accordingly immigration is an essential feature of modern Europe. Whinging over crime, foreign religions, sexual identity and cultural changes must taper off and come to a halt. The crucial choices were made long ago and there's no going back.

Europe and North America, having become rich and liberal, have stopped having children. This is the necessity for importing labor. No?

There comes a point where the cost of maintaining a middle class lifestyle becomes so high that both spouses need to work, lessening the desire and/or ability to have children. This affects Japan, as well, so it's not a uniquely Western thing. Perhaps individualism comes into it, but the main problem is simply that raising more than one or two children while working your arse off in the city is not possible.

Immigrants also typically stop having excessive amounts of children as they start to make more money.

 

[FoRiZon]

"Yes, theoretical we have freedom of speech in Germany."
"But guess what happens when you really speak out?"
"Instantly you have a bunch of people disagreeing with you!"

Well its technically a free speech, no? You had a free speech. Other people also have free speech, with or against you.

 

[tarnheld]

Well its technically a free speech, no? You had a free speech. Other people also have free speech, with or against you.

I thought the cartoon sums up quite well the feeling we all have when posting in the O&CE forums.

 

[BobK]

The white races of Europe must perpetually bear the guilt and shame of colonialization and empire.

Why?

Even those white Europeans who had nothing to do with colonization and empire must bear this guilt and shame? Because they're white and European?

 

[Johnnypenso]

You typically provides some news sources to support your arguments. Isnt that the exact same thing? More even as its the media that seeks more traffic unlike the research paper.

Dont be hypocritical, please.

Nothing hypocritical about pointing out the obvious.

These two quotes don't say it explicitly, but the sentiment is pretty close.

You should have added, "those two quotes don't say it explicitly, so I'm just going to assume it means what I want it to mean", because that's what you did.

 

[novcze]

You should have added, "those two quotes don't say it explicitly, so I'm just going to assume it means what I want it to mean", because that's what you did.

I suppose my joke directed at crazy "all men are pigs" feminazis didn't land. I didn't use smileys, so probably my bad.

 

[Barra333]

I suppose my joke directed at crazy "all men are pigs" feminazis didn't land. I didn't use smileys, so probably my bad.

If that quote of yours I posted was meant tongue in cheek, I apologise.

In any case, I have had enough of this. It has turned in to the same as half of the threads in this forum - arguments about veracity of sources and misrepresented data.

 

[novcze]

If that quote of yours I posted was meant tongue in cheek, I apologise.

no worries, I don't take these discussions too serious.

 

[Dotini]

Why?

Even those white Europeans who had nothing to do with colonization and empire must bear this guilt and shame? Because they're white and European?

I was wondering who might call me on this mild provocation.

Does anyone think guilt might inherited? Germans, Japanese? Or is it expunged with the death of the evildoers?

I don't know, so it is a question to me, at least.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Does anyone think guilt might inherited? Germans, Japanese? Or is it expunged with the death of the evildoers?

I don't know, so it is a question to me, at least.

I think some certainly has been (or was) but over time it's turned into a resolution to avoid the mistakes of the past.

 

[niky]

I was wondering who might call me on this mild provocation.

Does anyone think guilt might inherited? Germans, Japanese? Or is it expunged with the death of the evildoers?

I don't know, so it is a question to me, at least.

Guilt cannot be inherited, but the descendants of conquerors and war criminals do inherit the economic advantages conferred by previous generations. What is important is whether these crimes are acknowledged and amends are sought. In some cases, the crimes are obvious and the reparations follow, in others, it takes a long time for even the admission of guilt... and there are those who are adamant that their forefathers could think or do no wrong.

-

In the greater picture, more aggressive and warlike cultures are often the ones that spread and survive (American, British, German, French, Japanese, Indian, Chinese (?)), so genetically, we are almost all "sinners" in a way. Except maybe for some indigenous people quietly dying off in some remote corner of the world (or not so remote... Vegas?) while modern civilization passes them by.

 

[Carbonox]

What about countries with a predominantly white population, but which were on the receiving end of oppression for much of history? Just saying, we do exist as well...

 

[Spurgy 777]

What about countries with a predominantly white population, but which were on the receiving end of oppression for much of history? Just saying, we do exist as well...

But if we acknowledged your existence we wouldn't be oppressing you very well

 

[TenEightyOne]

What about countries with a predominantly white population, but which were on the receiving end of oppression for much of history? Just saying, we do exist as well...

That's an interesting idea, which countries did you have in mind?

 

[Rage Racer]

That's an interesting idea, which countries did you have in mind?

Umm... Poland?

 

[Scaff]

Umm... Poland?

Poland did have a very unpleasant time of it from 1795 to 1918 (Russians, Prussians and Germans) and then again from 1939 to 1989 (Germans and Russians again).

Which totals around 173 years, but it does then depend on what "Much of History" is defined as (given the age of European nations). Poland became a country in around 963, so has had 859 years as an independent country (i.e. not controlled by another), so that's about 17% of Polish history that could be considered oppression (by this measure anyway).

Its an interesting topic, but I'm not however considered that its one for this thread, and for it to be meaningful we would need to define a few terms (such as oppression and timescales) up front.

 

[Joel]

Its an interesting topic, but I'm not however considered that its one for this thread, and for it to be meaningful we would need to define a few terms (such as oppression and timescales) up front.

And we also need to preface it (and the inevitable discussions about Ireland) with the fact that at the time (or even 70 years ago) the idea that Polish or Irish people were "white" in the same sense British or German people were would be laughed at. Subjugating Polish and Irish people was done with the same justification as in Africa, India, or the Americas.

 

[Johnnypenso]

And we also need to preface it (and the inevitable discussions about Ireland) with the fact that at the time (or even 70 years ago) the idea that Polish or Irish people were "white" in the same sense British or German people were would be laughed at. Subjugating Polish and Irish people was done with the same justification as in Africa, India, or the Americas.

Why is that a preface? The fact that they actually are white but are maltreated as if they aren't part of the privileged skin colour of the day, is in itself part of the problem not a preface.

 

[Liquid]

Why is that a preface? The fact that they actually are white but are maltreated as if they aren't part of the privileged skin colour of the day, is in itself part of the problem not a preface.

But it's interesting to point out that while we would now consider these peoples to be white or caucasian or whatever the word is, in times gone by they really were not considered as such and were demonised simply for being different as many people now are regardless of what their race or skin colour is.

As we all know, Italian people are famous for being "brown". Direct from the slums of Europe, daily:

 

[Joel]

Why is that a preface? The fact that they actually are white but are maltreated as if they aren't part of the privileged skin colour of the day, is in itself part of the problem not a preface.

That's more or less what I meant, often I find Ireland and Poland are brought up in this context as a way to deflect the racial element of colonialism, by showing that white nations/peoples were oppressed by other white empires. In reality it was justified by the same reasoning as colonialism in other parts of the world was, and they were considered to be inferior races at the time. There's some really horrifying stuff from the early 1800's where pictures of Irish people are held up next to equally racist portrayals of Africans as monkeys, and essentially claiming that Irish people are a similarly inferior race.

By a preface I meant that "Poland and Ireland were/are oppressed" doesn't disprove the idea that colonialism led to white people subjugating people of other races and that the effects of it lingered long after the colonies became independent.

 

[Johnnypenso]

That's more or less what I meant, often I find Ireland and Poland are brought up in this context as a way to deflect the racial element of colonialism, by showing that white nations/peoples were oppressed by other white empires. In reality it was justified by the same reasoning as colonialism in other parts of the world was, and they were considered to be inferior races at the time. There's some really horrifying stuff from the early 1800's where pictures of Irish people are held up next to equally racist portrayals of Africans as monkeys, and essentially claiming that Irish people are a similarly inferior race.

By a preface I meant that "Poland and Ireland were/are oppressed" doesn't disprove the idea that colonialism led to white people subjugating people of other races and that the effects of it lingered long after the colonies became independent.

No one said it disproves that other races were subjugated. But it does raise the possibility that the subjugation had less to do with race as it's commonly portrayed, and everything to do with one being far more powerful than the other and simply mistreating the smaller group because they could.

 

[huskeR32]

But it does raise the possibility that the subjugation had less to do with race as it's commonly portrayed

Sure, if you ignore all of the examples he's just provided that it was about race.

 

[novcze]

Sure, if you ignore all of the examples he's just provided that it was about race.

racist assumptions were used as moral justification for colonialism, which always was about resources and territorial domination ... but what do I know, I'm just white Slavic man who have zero historical experience with colonization of other countries.

 

[Scaff]

racist assumptions were used as moral justification for colonialism, which always was about resources and territorial domination ... but what do I know, I'm just white Slavic man who have zero historical experience with colonization of other countries.

You seem to forget that one of the resources was a race!