Immigration

[Scaff]

By that argument I guess this article shows that Sweden's immigration policy is a success story?

http://thefederalist.com/2017/03/01/yes-violent-crime-spiked-sweden-since-open-immigration/

A source that once again fails to mention the utterly different manner in which Sweden records rape offences and claims to correct for socio-economic factors, but doesn't explain how and provides a broken link as a source.

Not to mention the author is annonamous.

Not really shining out as an unbiased, well cited source.

 

[killerjimbag]

Here,maybe this can enlighten us all a bit.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Changed the subject? Does he have any conclusive facts or articles to say it's a "success"

You disagree that it's a success when a perpetrator of repulsive crimes is locked up? I think we'd all agree that it would be for the best if such crimes were never perpetrated... unfortunately we know they are. For a crime to be perpetrated there generally has to be a victim.

Clearly it's not a success that anyone gets raped,assaulted,houses broken into,theft,etc,etc,etc.

Agreed.

Regardless of what country they came from and the unfortunate people that incured it in their country.

Absolutely. What you should remember, however, is that the majority of people who rape Austrians are Austrian themselves.

Why do you think their closing borders?

There is no grammatical sense in that sentence. Interpreting what I think you mean... it's because Austria feels that genuine asylum seekers should be processed in the first "safe" country of passage. Does that help... or are you going to say it's for some other reason?

Clearly, some of the worst people on the planet are trying to migrate to foreign countries. Terrorists,rapists,thieves et all.

Any section of society will include those people. Once again I'd caution you that the the majority of such people in Europe are indigenous and not immigrants. That needs to be remembered unless you're advocating a system whereby the locals get to be as rapey as they like and we only look at them brown'uns.

We now have people trudging across the boarder into Canada in the dead of winter illegally!

I'm not bloody surprised.

 

[killerjimbag]

You disagree that it's a success when a perpetrator of repulsive crimes is locked up? I think we'd all agree that it would be for the best if such crimes were never perpetrated... unfortunately we know they are. For a crime to be perpetrated there generally has to be a victim.



Agreed.



Absolutely. What you should remember, however, is that the majority of people who rape Austrians are Austrian themselves.



There is no grammatical sense in that sentence. Interpreting what I think you mean... it's because Austria feels that genuine asylum seekers should be processed in the first "safe" country of passage. Does that help... or are you going to say it's for some other reason?



Any section of society will include those people. Once again I'd caution you that the the majority of such people in Europe are indigenous and not immigrants. That needs to be remembered unless you're advocating a system whereby the locals get to be as rapey as they like and we only look at them brown'uns.



I'm not bloody surprised.

Here read for yourself. I'll include a little snippet for you.I'm not saying this the US Department of State is.

Austria experienced an influx of refugees and asylum seekers in 2015 and continues to handle greater than usual numbers of displaced persons than in previous years. This influx has led to an increase in anecdotal reports of some criminal activity where these groups congregate, with some violent and non-violent incidents reported in the press.

https://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=19138

 

[LeMansAid]

What? A success story? You seem to think someone getting brutally raped is a success story,for whom. The girl? The jurors,the first responders,the court system,all probably traumatized from the brutal assault committed by a bunch of 🤬 animals! It could be expected that it caused less suffering of Iraqi lives? Are you serious? Chances are that the probably did it in Iraq already and never got caught,because of that little problem going on over there.Who actually cares if their from Iraq or Canada or Poland. They "Iraqi" "immigrants" immigrated to Austria, the vetting process or lack of it allowed these animals to commit unthinkable crimes in Austria.I'm sure the lives of the women in Iraq have been traumatized also. By the way, she was German,not Austrian. But to even think of writing an argument that it was an "immigration success story" boggles my mind.

It's not like people magically manifested. The rapists existed. Beyond that fact, it was a matter of where they existed. Thankfully they ended up in a place not of relative lawlessness, and were stopped in their tracks. I think that in cold, hard numbers, the damage was probably minimised.

Unless I have a chance to truly know who someone is, I need to at least try to view all lives as having equal value. I'll ask the question - to you, sight unseen, how many Iraqi lives is a German life worth?

 

[killerjimbag]

It's not like people magically manifested. The rapists existed. Beyond that fact, it was a matter of where they existed. Thankfully they ended up in a place not of relative lawlessness, and were stopped in their tracks. I think that in cold, hard numbers, the damage was probably minimised.

Unless I have a chance to truly know who someone is, I need to at least try to view all lives as having equal value. I'll ask the question - to you, sight unseen, how many Iraqi lives is a German life worth?

OK so they existed in Iraq,correct! So we treat them as equal, as every other law abiding human on the face of the planet.
They then immigrated to a country that accepted them,to give them a better life!
Then 8 actually 9 men 1 not indicted, decided they would "GANG RAPE" a woman and video it taking selfies!
2 were a father and son,so what, is this passed on to your child?
In cold hard numbers 8 men gang raped a woman!
They were from Iraq!They never should have been allowed into the country!
This is not how humans,regardless of were they come from, assimilate into society.
Clearly they have no morals or form of humanity.
So how many more of these immigrants, have the same thoughts,objectives, as the ones that came from relative lawlessness? 1,8,10,000?

Unless I have a chance to truly know who someone is, I need to at least try to view all lives as having equal value.
Well I guess unless people at the border sit down and have a coffee and a chat,this isn't happening
How many Iraqi lives is a German life worth?
I have no idea,I don't kill people? They kill each other.Everyone deserves to live,regardless of origin.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

A source that once again fails to mention the utterly different manner in which Sweden records rape offences and claims to correct for socio-economic factors, but doesn't explain how and provides a broken link as a source.

Not to mention the author is annonamous.

Not really shining out as an unbiased, well cited source.

The cited parts that go to a broken link are from this original article

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape

 

[Scaff]

The cited parts that go to a broken link are from this original article

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape

For which exactly the same issues remain.

 

[mister dog]

Hasn't the Swedish method for registering rapes been the same since more than 10 years now? Which means the rise in rape crimes is still an actual rise?

 

[Scaff]

Hasn't the Swedish method for registering rapes been the same since more than 10 years now? Which means the rise in rape crimes is still an actual rise?

No it's continued to be widened and redefined, also you omit the possibility that the level has not increased but willingness to report has.

http://www.government.se/articles/2017/02/facts-about-migration-and-crime-in-sweden/

It's also a good idea to understand the author of a piece before blindly citing it, in this case even Gatestone have attempted to distance themselves from the neo-nazi Ingrid Carlqvist.

Not that it stopped Fox using her.

http://expo.se/2017/notorious-swedi...st-touted-as-expert-by-fox-business_7268.html

 

[TenEightyOne]

Hasn't the Swedish method for registering rapes been the same since more than 10 years now? Which means the rise in rape crimes is still an actual rise?

No. The last major change was in 2013, there have been other changes since then. Those changes cover categorisation and public willingness to report crimes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39056786

 

[mister dog]

The example is given that if a woman says that she was raped every day of the year by her husband that would count as 365 different rape cases. But honestly how many times would that actually happen? I suppose that the majority of cases will still be women stepping to the police and reporting that they were raped once?

 

[Encyclopedia]

The example is given that if a woman says that she was raped every day of the year by her husband that would count as 365 different rape cases. But honestly how many times would that actually happen? I suppose that the majority of cases will still be women stepping to the police and reporting that they were raped once?

It's just an example to illustrate reporting methods.

Another thing to note that the statistics deal with reported rapes. Not only cases where there has been a conviction. It also does not get adjusted retroactively. So if a rape claim turns out to be false or not have any evidence for it it's still in the statistics.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Another thing to note that the statistics deal with reported rapes.

And sometimes an increase in the number of reported rapes and sexual assaults can be a good thing because it means that victims are coming forward.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

No it's continued to be widened and redefined, also you omit the possibility that the level has not increased but willingness to report has.

http://www.government.se/articles/2017/02/facts-about-migration-and-crime-in-sweden/

It's also a good idea to understand the author of a piece before blindly citing it, in this case even Gatestone have attempted to distance themselves from the neo-nazi Ingrid Carlqvist.

Not that it stopped Fox using her.

http://expo.se/2017/notorious-swedi...st-touted-as-expert-by-fox-business_7268.html

Uh huh....

If there was nothing to hide....why do the authorities in Sweden not register who are the offenders by ethnicity any more? We've even seen police officers come out and say the truth that is so blindingly obvious to most people and get castigated for it. In your other thread you mention that Muslims are most likely to be killed by other Muslims but fail to come to the logical conclusion that this just might be because of the background of the religion/culture. And which part of the original article are you disputing, other than calling out one of the authors.

And as for the article I posted, what about the other facts within it? How about the rise in Germany, Austria, and Britain (the British one is a dead link but this is the story: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15287...g-of-offences-including-rape-and-child-abuse/ )

 

[Scaff]

Uh huh....

If there was nothing to hide....why do the authorities in Sweden not register who are the offenders by ethnicity any more?

You would have to ask the Swedish authorities that, however to assume it means anything more is just that, an assumption.

We've even seen police officers come out and say the truth that is so blindingly obvious to most people and get castigated for it.

We have also seen police officers quoted wildly out of context by Fox news, however if the 'proof' is so blindingly obvious you would not need to depend on miss-used data and anecdotal comments.

In your other thread you mention that Muslims are most likely to be killed by other Muslims but fail to come to the logical conclusion that this just might be because of the background of the religion/culture.

Muslim extremists are most likely to kill other Muslims, was the point, as such the reason why you see it as so logical is because you remove the idea of extermism and simply paint 1.6 billion people as the same (and then attempt to deny what you repeatedly do).

And which part of the original article are you disputing, other than calling out one of the authors.

I've repeatedly disputed the article and pointed out the inaccuracies, the miss-use of data and the lack of sources, you simply want to ignore them.

However you don't get to simply ignore the issues with one of the authors that easily, so answer this, do you agree with her that the real reason why Muslim Immigrants are running riot in Sweden is because its a plot by the Jews?

And as for the article I posted, what about the other facts within it? How about the rise in Germany, Austria, and Britain (the British one is a dead link but this is the story: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15287...g-of-offences-including-rape-and-child-abuse/ )

A Sun article! Seriously.

Oh well I suppose it is less clearly biased that you norm. It contains no comparative data (which would be required to indicate its above normal levels, its on the rise or that it is caused by the religion of those involved. Oh and lets not forget that the source in question (the Sun) has a track record of utter fabrication and miss-representation.

 

[novcze]

You would have to ask the Swedish authorities that, however to assume it means anything more is just that, an assumption.

Yes, but not releasing the data only fuels the far-right.

Unless I have a chance to truly know who someone is, I need to at least try to view all lives as having equal value.

Yes (I understand the point you are making), but then again from the perspective of citizen, other native citizens have greater value, because nation invested in them and they are contributing back. Which you can't say about immigrants who just arrived, contributed nothing and only causing problems.
I'm aware how does it sound, criminals are criminals, but people will be always harsh on immigrant criminals because of aforementioned reason.

 

[Scaff]

Yes, but not releasing the data only fuels the far-right.

The far right would either ignore it or distort it no matter if it existed or what it said. They are already doing that with the data that does exist, so why would it be any different.

Yes (I understand the point you are making), but then again from the perspective of citizen, other native citizens have greater value, because nation invested in them and they are contributing back. Which you can't say about immigrants who just arrived, contributed nothing and only causing problems.
I'm aware how does it sound, criminals are criminals, but people will be always harsh on immigrant criminals because of aforementioned reason.

What all people?

I've lived as an immigrant in another country, as has my family, however as we were white Europeans we went by the title of expats (odd that isn't it).

I for one can tell you that I certainly don't think the way you are describing, nor do a hell of a lot of people I know. I work with enough immigrants to not make such stupid, generalist judgements.

 

[LeMansAid]

Yes (I understand the point you are making), but then again from the perspective of citizen, other native citizens have greater value, because nation invested in them and they are contributing back. Which you can't say about immigrants who just arrived, contributed nothing and only causing problems.
I'm aware how does it sound, criminals are criminals, but people will be always harsh on immigrant criminals because of aforementioned reason.

I was talking about the value of the life of a raped person, and essentially asking if it's worth allowing many Iraqi people to be raped, to save from one Austrian (German) person being raped.

Going back to that Austria rape example - in that situation, Austria will be slightly worse off (as it will now keep several more people jailed), Iraq will be better off, and on a grander scale, the world is better off. All up, I't's a net gain for the world. That said, there is surely a point of unworkable saturation. We can't just identify all of the world's people most likely to rape, and send them to Austria.

There are parts of the world where terrible people will likely never "dissolve". The saturation level is such that there is just not enough solvent to break down those people. "Break down" in essence meaning having them ultimately locked up, or better, changed for the good. It's odd, because most talk is about aiming to get the "good ones", but if successful, all that would do is leave a greater saturation of "bad ones" in the country of origin - consigning it to being even less able to dissolve "impurities".

In a completely pragmatic and world scale thought process...... dare I say..... solution is the solution.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Yes (I understand the point you are making), but then again from the perspective of citizen, other native citizens have greater value, because nation invested in them and they are contributing back. Which you can't say about immigrants who just arrived, contributed nothing and only causing problems.

Breaking that down there are people who are invested in by a government and people who give something back. That's perfectly reasonable. Someone born in the UK has received government funding and is now giving something back... but that funding encompassed their whole health/education regime from birth to adulthood. That was a lot. So now they're giving something back.

The government investment in an asylum seeker after they've been in the country for a year is, almost certainly, far far less. And they're giving nothing back, or at least it seems that that's what you're saying.

So what if that UK-born citizen has never given anything back? In the 30 years of their adulthood they've only received benefits, they've lied about an un-diagnosable back condition to claim DLA, PIP, and they literally give nothing back to the state. It happens, you know.

How do you compare them with an asylum seeker who's set up a small business serving a community, who's paying the full-and-proper tax and is providing two or three local youngsters with paid, taxable work? That happens too, all the time.

It seems that everything you say is logically true but on examination you can ascribe greater value to some native citizens but certainly not all. And, on further logical examination, you can do the same for immigrants in the community.

I'm aware how does it sound, criminals are criminals, but people will be always harsh on immigrant criminals because of aforementioned reason.

Nope, those aforementioned reasons for being harsher on one criminal than another could only constitute an unreasonable and demonstrably unfounded bias.

 

[novcze]

What all people?

oh relax, it's some people all right? ... I really need to get my ass to the UK, steal somebody's work and wife and learn some English before you guys move out of the EU.

The government investment in an asylum seeker after they've been in the country for a year is, almost certainly, far far less. And they're giving nothing back, or at least it seems that that's what you're saying.

It was general thinking about recently arrived immigrants from middle-eastern cultures and crimes some of them commit it was not related to the rape case.

It's just an example to illustrate reporting methods.

Another thing to note that the statistics deal with reported rapes. Not cases where there has been a conviction. It also does not get adjusted retroactively. So if a rape claim turns out to be false or not have any evidence for it it's still in the statistics.

If you include every alleged rape in the statistics what reason Sweden have (other then wanting to be laughing stock of the EU and giving ammunition to the far-right)? Not to mention it screams guilty until proven innocent.

 

[Encyclopedia]

If you include every alleged rape in the statistics what reason Sweden have (other then wanting to be laughing stock of the EU and giving ammunition to the far-right)? Not to mention it screams guilty until proven innocent.

Isn't that what every country does?

Edit: And I suppose the reason for using reported rapes instead of just convictions as the main statistic is because so few rapes lead to conviction. Leading to an inaccurate perception on how common it is.

 

[Scaff]

oh relax, it's some people all right? ... I really need to get my ass to the UK, steal somebody's work and wife and learn some English before you guys move out of the EU.

I'm perfectly relaxed, but thanks for asking.

BTW, please head on over you are statically going to be a positive impact on tax revenue, wages and the economy as a whole, while being a lower burden on the welfare state than a UK national.

Unfortunately you are more likely to be the target of violence and bigotry from those you ironically identify with over immigration.

 

[TenEightyOne]

If you include every alleged rape in the statistics what reason Sweden have (other then wanting to be laughing stock of the EU and giving ammunition to the far-right)? Not to mention it screams guilty until proven innocent.

Nooo... it's down to one's understanding of a title. If the statistics are headed "Reported Crimes in District X" and you automatically think "Guilty til proven innocent!" then that's down to your own interpretation and not any facts that you're being provided with. Nor does it give ammunition of any kind, in this particular case there's only anecdotal reporting of race statistics, no official reporting whatsoever. An interesting comparison might be the successful-number-of-charges against number-of-crime-reports, that's where you gain the knowledge required to improve any system. If all any party wants to do is use reported crimes to fuel a completely separate, anecdotal agenda then that's not the fault of reporting officials.

 

[novcze]

Isn't that what every country does?

Edit: And I suppose the reason for using reported rapes instead of just convictions as the main statistic is because so few rapes lead to conviction. Leading to an inaccurate perception on how common it is.

It depends on what statistics you are looking, convictions don't belong to the police statistics. In the police statistics should be included reported rapes and clear-up rate (at least). I did not see any Swedish Police statistics so I don't know if clear-up rate is included, that should be more telling than just number of reports.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It depends on what statistics you are looking, convictions don't belong to the police statistics. In the police statistics should be included reported rapes and clear-up rate (at least).

Convictions are the clear-up rate. Unless of course you want habeus corpus removed from law. Police officers shouldn't be judge and jury too, imo.

 

[novcze]

Convictions are the clear-up rate.

yes, wrong translation ... so does Sweden have clear-up rate in the statistics, or not?

 

[TenEightyOne]

yes, wrong translation ... so does Sweden have clear-up rate in the statistics, or not?

They have statistics for that, of course. I haven't looked back to see if they're in the Bra stats or not.

Here's an interesting report from Amnesty. Published in 2010 it was an important driver in changing the way Sweden (and other countries) handled their reporting, a change that is very often discussed in the "rapey cus immigrunt" discussion. You'll see comments about how the rape rate has risen hugely in the previous 20 years and some interesting facts about the "clear-up rate", as you put it. It's not good. This thread isn't the place to discuss that much further, of course, but the facts about the "explosion of rape in Sweden since immigration" can be pretty soundly debunked on the basis of the figures within.

 

[novcze]

They have statistics for that, of course. I haven't looked back to see if they're in the Bra stats or not.

I'm sure they have statistics, question is who is they. I didn't see one on https://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/crime-statistics.html


btw. I'm not sure about your

Convictions are the clear-up rate.

because

"A crime or offence is regarded as cleared up where there exists a sufficiency of evidence under Scots law, to justify consideration of criminal proceedings "

or

"The accepted definition of a cleared criminal incident is one: which, in the view of police, has been satisfactorily cleared by the commencement of legal proceedings"

And even though I'm not native English I would guess that conviction is end result of criminal/legal proceeding which is not done by the police.

Sorry for offtopic.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I'm sure they have statistics, question is who is they.

Did AI give a source in the linked report?

"A crime or offence is regarded as cleared up where there exists a sufficiency of evidence under Scots law, to justify consideration of criminal proceedings "

or

"The accepted definition of a cleared criminal incident is one: which, in the view of police, has been satisfactorily cleared by the commencement of legal proceedings"

And even though I'm not native English I would guess that conviction is end result result of criminal/legal proceeding which is not done by the police.

Sorry for offtopic.

That's an interesting (and important) distinction. I guess "cleared up" clearly has a couple of usable meanings. I'd think of the situations you describe there as "detections", i.e. when the police feel they have enough evidence to pursue prosecution. I was using "cleared up" to mean completely clear, as in a case has been heard and a judgement handed down. We all need to be more clear in the future