Introducing the GTPlanet League: Team Racing in Gran Turismo Sport

[GTR365]

I just learned about this series this week. I'm so disappointed that I didn't know about it earlier so that I could have viewed more content. I watched only one round's match today, tremendous stuff.

I like the comments here from @redhed17 & @Snaeper. These seemed objectively fair. I would give what I have seen of this effort an A with respect to my perception of planning, format, production, driver performance & community enthusiasm. The team format introduces fresh strategies that are uncommon in most racing series.

I would address two points concerning format. @redhed17 mentioned track choice. I appreciate the singular choice of the (unannounced) track. Since the R1 starting order is determined by Q, the track should be common to appropriately reward & reflect the Q performance. R2's starting order, presumably to create a measure of parity, is the reverse finishing order of R1. Again track commonality best assures this parity, especially running 5 lap events.

My second topic is the value of points rewarded to finishing positions. I question the linear scale for point assignment. My opinion is that upper finishing positions should be given progressively greater points. I would be interested in comparing match results based on an adjusted schedule, e.g., 10 - 8 - 6 - 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1. However, I enjoyed how close the current system kept team total points throughout the races I watched & i would not recommend any change without examination of past results & without consulting participants.

Thanks so much to the presenters, planners, drivers & promoters. I plan to view the rest when I am not streaming on my mobile cellular network.

 

[Snaeper]

@GTR365 Looking at that point scheme, I cant imagine it going over well. A team could lock out the front two spots and rear two and outscore their opponents significantly, then be set up to repeat in the following race.

Might be interesting with a varying pool of talent, but at elite level driving, the event would be over with qualifying if a team locks out the front row.

 

[redhed17]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the points system, as has been mentioned, with the points scored, plus qualifying and fastest lap points in each race, there can't be a draw, because it all adds up to an odd total, 75. And has the benefit of the points difference normally being close, and changeable right up to the last car across the line.

I think it could be clearer though with regards to the points the players have whilst racing, and some way to highlight which team had the fastest lap point(s) in each race. Like I said earlier, it could be as simple as adding a column or two to the current points on screen box.

I know things like quickly updating the points is easier for PD to do, as they could integrate the car positions via software to auto update on screen, so a slight delay in the streams is understandable.

 

[GTPNewsWire]

This is the discussion thread for a recent post on GTPlanet:

Watch Live: The GTPlanet League Semi-Finals

This article was published by Andrew Evans (@Famine) on October 12th, 2019 in the Gran Turismo Sport category.

 

[Jordan]

I'm excited to announce that @F4H Super GT will be joining us as a guest commentator on the stream tomorrow!



Here's the official tournament bracket:

 

[Riptide]

Lazarus had a great night on Forza Invitational tonight to go tops, so holding thumbs for their team mates to do same here tomorrow night.

 

[davidt33]

Looking forward to the semis later.

 

[davidt33]

Amazing driving Lightning. You are a true master.
I think it would be safe to say it was flawless. Cheers.

 

[GTR365]

@GTR365 Looking at that point scheme, I cant imagine it going over well. A team could lock out the front two spots and rear two and outscore their opponents significantly, then be set up to repeat in the following race.

Might be interesting with a varying pool of talent, but at elite level driving, the event would be over with qualifying if a team locks out the front row.

Agreed here, since I have viewed more races, I have recognized the value of the linear scale so that no positions have super-importance. I have realized the distinct impact of team racing on this dynamic.

[W]ith the points scored, plus qualifying and fastest lap points in each race, there can't be a draw, because it all adds up to an odd total, 74. And has the benefit of the points difference normally being close, and changeable right up to the last car across the line.

So right this. I now doubtlessly agree with the points as assigned.

I enjoy how each place matters equally. These drivers are brilliant; I like how they all must bring a great performance regardless of their position throughout the grid.

Thx for the discussion

 

[Snaeper]

@Jordan The Lazarus/Williams race did Expose the points system a bit as the second race was basically moot before they even started.

I think the first round should remove the scores for the two lowest finishing drivers on each team.

They still serve a role (they can deny a higher score for the opposition) but it ensures that the second race won't be over before it's even begun.

In the event of a tie breaker, whoever scores the most bonus points wins.

Huge props to the announcers for using the PSN tags as it made it much easier to follow along. Loved what @F4H Super GT brought to the "booth" as it felt less like a replica of TV broadcast and much more like a fun eSport program with references to the Shadow Realm.

 

[FUNanywhere]

Lightning schooled everyone

 

[Riptide]

I think the current point system is just fine. Tracks not prone to overtaking [like Autopolis] should be avoided though.

 

[Snaeper]

I think the current point system is just fine. Tracks not prone to overtaking [like Autopolis] should be avoided though.

Before this latest round of races I would've agreed with you, but if the round is over before the second race begins then clearly the points system opens the door for dominant speed to make these really boring.

If both races dont serve to decide the winner, then dont waste everyone's time running the second one when its already over.

It shuts down all aspects of a defensive strategy potentially winning and purely favors outright speed above all else. I'd just need to find four guys who are blisteringly fast to lock up the front four spots and run away from qualifying. Does it matter that they're incapable of passing? Nope.

The other alternative I swe would be to qualify and reverse the grid from qualifying. You get your clearly valuable bonus point from pole, but now have to make it through the field if you want to negate the second race.

 

[Riptide]

Before this latest round of races I would've agreed with you, but if the round is over before the second race begins then clearly the points system opens the door for dominant speed to make these really boring.

If both races dont serve to decide the winner, then dont waste everyone's time running the second one when its already over.

It shuts down all aspects of a defensive strategy potentially winning and purely favors outright speed above all else. I'd just need to find four guys who are blisteringly fast to lock up the front four spots and run away from qualifying. Does it matter that they're incapable of passing? Nope.

The other alternative I swe would be to qualify and reverse the grid from qualifying. You get your clearly valuable bonus point from pole, but now have to make it through the field if you want to negate the second race.

I agree with you on the "boring" note. I've stopped halfway and watched a few bike videos. BUT I think it will improve with time as the series expands and more teams are added [3 or 4 teams per race] which will make the pitfalls of the current point system less influential.

 

[Snaeper]

I agree with you on the "boring" note. I've stopped halfway and watched a few bike videos. BUT I think it will improve with time as the series expands and more teams are added [3 or 4 teams per race] which will make the pitfalls of the current point system less influential.

I'd definitely like to see three teams a race. I think four is impossible as you still have to leave a few spots open for broadcasting and general stability, though. Not to mention it reduces the complexity if scheduling (getting that many people together).

 

[Jordan]

Lightning schooled everyone

Indeed, that was an amazing drive by @TRL LIGHTNING in the first match. Congratulations to Team Redline and Williams for making it through to the championship match. It's going to be a good one, especially if Williams returns with that incredibly strong line-up.

Thanks to all of you who tuned in to the semi-finals, and thanks to Howard Mitchell and @F4H Super GT for hosting the show. My apologies to everyone for the live points issue in the first match. After the show I was able to figure out what caused the problem and will make adjustments to ensure it doesn't happen again.

We've got another little surprise in store for the finale next week, so keep an eye out for that.

 

[Famine]

After the show I was able to figure out what caused the problem

My money's on water from Red Bull Ring getting into the server.

Before this latest round of races I would've agreed with you, but if the round is over before the second race begins then clearly the points system opens the door for dominant speed to make these really boring.

This was an extreme - and unpredictable - edge case.

We've not seen this in any of the races or any of the testing in the previous months, where one squad locks out the front four positions on the grid and then makes no mistakes while pulling 0.5s a lap. Even the Lazarus team was baffled.

It's not an indication that there's anything wrong with the points system, but even so, care must be taken to ensure that adjusting it doesn't run the risk of destroying the point of the series. Take this one for example:

I think the first round should remove the scores for the two lowest finishing drivers on each team.

They still serve a role (they can deny a higher score for the opposition) but it ensures that the second race won't be over before it's even begun.

Now we've got four drivers who won't score in race one, making it pointless for them to scrap for position. What do you think they'll be doing instead? If you think "trying real hard to finish in the last two to get the front grid slots in race 2", you would be right - and that would be not only boring but actually laughable. Race 2 might be okay, but asking people to tune in to watch half the field sandbag in the first race is not going to fly.


It was just an incredible performance from Williams that shouldn't have been possible, but they brought their A+++ game.

 

[GTPNewsWire]

This is the discussion thread for a recent post on GTPlanet:

GTPlanet League: Redline and Williams Dominate to Book Their Finals Places

This article was published by Andrew Evans (@Famine) on October 14th, 2019 in the Gran Turismo Sport category.

 

[Snaeper]

My money's on water from Red Bull Ring getting into the server.

This was an extreme - and unpredictable - edge case.

We've not seen this in any of the races or any of the testing in the previous months, where one squad locks out the front four positions on the grid and then makes no mistakes while pulling 0.5s a lap. Even the Lazarus team was baffled.

It's not an indication that there's anything wrong with the points system, but even so, care must be taken to ensure that adjusting it doesn't run the risk of destroying the point of the series. Take this one for example:

Now we've got four drivers who won't score in race one, making it pointless for them to scrap for position. What do you think they'll be doing instead? If you think "trying real hard to finish in the last two to get the front grid slots in race 2", you would be right - and that would be not only boring but actually laughable. Race 2 might be okay, but asking people to tune in to watch half the field sandbag in the first race is not going to fly.


It was just an incredible performance from Williams that shouldn't have been possible, but they brought their A+++ game.

I knew I phrased that wrong.

The lowest finishing driver from each team*. One from each. Two total

Each driver can tank to the back if they want, it just means a closer gap between each team for the second round, and thus less of a defecit to make up.

Sorry for my error. But now that Williams' performance is out of the bag, I'd like to hear your solution to prevent repeats in the future, because if the solution is to keep things the same, then I see no reason to even hold the second race in a playoff setting. "Round over, I'm tuning out" is my mentality as a spectator.

During a regular season, if points were tallied complete over the course of a season or tournament (like Football/Soccer) then I see the sense in holding the second race regardless at least.

I know you guys have been working in this for 8 months, not saying you got it wrong, but both races should affect the results 100%.

 

[GTR365]

@Jordan The Lazarus/Williams race did Expose the points system a bit as the second race was basically moot before they even started.

I think the first round should remove the scores for the two lowest finishing drivers on each team.

Huge props to the announcers for using the PSN tags as it made it much easier to follow along. Loved what @F4H Super GT brought to the "booth" as it felt less like a replica of TV broadcast and much more like a fun eSport program with references to the Shadow Realm.

I agree with @Famine, the situation from that semifinal was a statistical outlier. I also want to see each position scored. This outcome's improbable possibility shows the importance of Q session results. I really enjoy the qualifying aspect of racing, particularly single car sessions, while acknowledging that time & scheduling restraints likely prohibit this for GTPleague format.

I really enjoy the presenters' performance as well as the producers' effort. This is tougher than it seems. Creating content on the fly requires public speaking skill, content knowledge competency & a genuine appreciation of the event.
Planning the events, forming the teams, arranging the production, creating graphical content, social media promotion, viewership evaluation, updating event status dynamically in seconds (& 89 other tasks I don't even know about) is as thankless as it is difficult. From me, still grade A.

Tracks not prone to overtaking [like Autopolis] should be avoided though.

Perceived lack of passing probably is as frustrating for drivers as for fans. Competitive action still exists even if passes are few. Tracks with fewer passing opportunities also tend to place an added premium on starting position; qualifying is meaningful.
The reverse grid for the second race provides an additional chance to excel if the first race yielded a lower finishing position than the driver's pace otherwise would have garnered had he/she not been held up. I hate being faster but unable to get around!
I somewhat dislike sprint race length because a driver has fewer chances to overcome mishaps (regardless of who causes these) or poor starting position. I feel that now adding to the length or to the complexity of the events, e.g., longer races possibly including pit stops or tire wear/fuel consumption, is not wise. Let's see how the current format develops.

f the round is over before the second race begins then clearly the points system opens the door for dominant speed to make these really boring.

If both races dont serve to decide the winner, then dont waste everyone's time running the second one when its already over.

The other alternative I swe would be to qualify and reverse the grid from qualifying. You get your clearly valuable bonus point from pole, but now have to make it through the field if you want to negate the second race.

I hope everyone's time was not wasted. I still enjoyed watching. I expect the drivers & teams still enjoyed the exposure & the chance to show that they were worthy of inclusion in the tournament.
This still provides for the commentators the chance to profile drivers/teams & to discuss previous or future rounds. I vote against adopting a mercy rule.

Concerning setting first race starting grid by reversing order, I also vote against this as sandbagging could occur. One or two drivers for a team could attempt a pole run while others would be rolling chicanes. This is counter to the goal of a speed contest. I want no reward for any effort to qualify poorly.

I'd definitely like to see three teams a race. I think four is impossible as you still have to leave a few spots open for broadcasting and general stability, though. Not to mention it reduces the complexity if scheduling (getting that many people together).

Three four driver teams in a race sounds intriguing. I think a scheduling problem exists for the earliest round. I like the round robin session. Can this be preserved? Should it? What would replace it where teams are exposed to each other to a relatively equal extent?
It seems that keeping the one team versus one team per race format would provide fewer scheduling challenges throughout the tournament, yes?
Firstly, we need to have more teams. I assume more willing quality drivers are available to form these & to participate. I would like to see more drivers.

As an aside, has anyone shared these events on GTS so that they might be downloaded & viewed on my PS? I could watch them from any driver's perspective I choose & better be able to see the action from in-car views.

 

[Famine]

The lowest finishing driver from each team*. One from each. Two total

Each driver can tank to the back if they want, it just means a closer gap for the each team.

Two sandbaggers - 25% of the field - instead of four. Doesn't seem much of an improvement.

On this occasion this system would have seen the fourth Williams driver dropping to last, sacrificing three points (21-9 to 21-12) in order to start from pole and gain eight for the win as he, on his own, is 0.5s a lap faster than any car behind him except his own team - robbing us of that 1-2-3 for Lazarus and stellar defensive drive from Calster which generated a lot of appreciative chatter in the YT stream from the people who remained watching it.

I'd like to hear your solution to prevent repeats in the future,

Firstly, why? My solution isn't important. There's only one person whose opinion on this actually matters... because he runs it. That's where my suggestions, if requested, go.

Secondly, I just said it's important to take care when it comes to making changes, lest you harm the whole event and the purpose of the event. I would not propose something at this point without considering all the factors any change could affect. Having the right solution is more important than having a solution right now.

But higher on the list of relevance is if it's even necessary. I don't see an extreme edge case like this as something that's likely to happen often enough to require an overhaul of anything... yet.

It's pretty neat that a team was able to achieve it. Perhaps after the first season has ended, there'll be discussions about it. With more teams there may be an increased chance of a significant skills gap. Next weekend won't be one of those occasions.

GTPlanet League is in a constant state of tinkering. When it becomes necessary to tinker with this, I'm sure it will be tinkered with.

 

[redhed17]

Just watched the latest stream and really enjoyed it. 👍

It was nice to see some things changed from the previous streams.

It was good to see more emphasis on the contestants PSN names rather than their real names, both in the graphics and the commentary, though there isn't a need to mention their real names quite so often in the latter. PSN users now have the option to change their PSN ID's to their real name (if available) if real names are important.

I thought Howard Mitchell and @F4H Super GT did a great job to keep things moving along, even with the situation half way through the second tie.

There were audio problems again for a commentator, but at least it was acknowledged.

It was good to see the points box include the fastest laps points for each race and the qualifying point. Even if it wasn't always up to date and didn't add up. It would be nice to see that graphic when showing the totals at the end of races, as the finishing position points, and the total scores, do not tally up, especially after the second race.

The second tie finishing the way it did was unfortunate, but if on the day the four players in one team are so much better than their opponents for whatever reason, would any points system work to change that! We would have missed the great blocking display of Calster if it were any different any way.

Loved Calster going into the pits at the end.

Would a three team race make a difference! As long as the quality levels are maintained, and the numbers add up so as to always have a winning team I don't know. I think as a start to hopefully a long term thing, get everyone used to working behind the scenes with two teams is the way to go, it may even be the best way full stop.

What drives by TRL_Lighning! He brought his A game to this round.

There are a lot of tracks to choose from, and maybe choosing tracks that have more options overtake, if you are close enough of course, would be better than tracks that are perceived to be harder to overtake at.

Keep up the good work.

 

[davidt33]

My money's on water from Red Bull Ring getting into the server.

This was an extreme - and unpredictable - edge case.

We've not seen this in any of the races or any of the testing in the previous months, where one squad locks out the front four positions on the grid and then makes no mistakes while pulling 0.5s a lap. Even the Lazarus team was baffled.

It's not an indication that there's anything wrong with the points system, but even so, care must be taken to ensure that adjusting it doesn't run the risk of destroying the point of the series.

Ditto. Before I saw your response I was going to ask Snaeper and others out of the 12-16 races in the series thus far how many teams pulled off what that team did there "locking out" for the win after the 1st race? None before. Long and short of it, it was an incredible performance more the exception than the rule. Leave well enough alone IMO.

 

[Snaeper]

Two sandbaggers - 25% of the field - instead of four. Doesn't seem much of an improvement.

On this occasion this system would have seen the fourth Williams driver dropping to last, sacrificing three points (21-9 to 21-12) in order to start from pole and gain eight for the win as he, on his own, is 0.5s a lap faster than any car behind him except his own team - robbing us of that 1-2-3 for Lazarus and stellar defensive drive from Calster which generated a lot of appreciative chatter in the YT stream from the people who remained watching it.

The general idea was to find a way to ensure the competition lasts two races, that was at the heart of the suggestion and I apologize if that sentiment was lost.

It was Calster's spirited defense that incited the thought at all. I thought, "Man, Calster's an absolute legend right now if his team can pull this off thanks to his defe---- oh, they've already lost anyways."

Firstly, why? My solution isn't important. There's only one person whose opinion on this actually matters... because he runs it. That's where my suggestions, if requested, go.

Because, as you might have figured from reading my posts but might not have realized from reading your own, it's easy to be a critic. I'm not going to come in here and say, "It's broken." That's the easy part. I only offered a suggestion because I like this event. I love this idea. I think @Jordan is absolutely the man who should be running this, and I'm excited that he's broken from the norm of loosely replicating real events to use the creativity of eSports to make a new type of racing. I'm not asking anyone to take my suggestion and run with it (though they very well can!) my only desired reaction is "Well, I'm not fond of that idea. However, here's how I'd go about getting that end result." The end result being both races matter even in the face of a dominant performance.

I'm not here because I hate anything about what's been done, I want it to work. I've been coordinating with 8+ members who are forming their own team to hopefully compete in this series and they've been gracious enough to try out my hair brained ideas so I can see whether or not they have merit. I have no intention of sitting idly in a chair, and if I appear ignorant about the amount of work that Jordan and the GTP team have put in to make this series happen, it's because I am, but not by choice. Precious little has been said or shown about the efforts to make this series happen (I'm not asking that anything be shown, just trying to give perspective of my viewpoint).

And on a side note, you and him have a far deeper and better working relationship than he and I do, so you at least have that option. I do not.

I want to show that there's enthusiasm for this idea so it can grow, because I see the potential in it.

Secondly, I just said it's important to take care when it comes to making changes, lest you harm the whole event and the purpose of the event. I would not propose something at this point without considering all the factors any change could affect. Having the right solution is more important than having a solution right now.

But higher on the list of relevance is if it's even necessary. I don't see an extreme edge case like this as something that's likely to happen often enough to require an overhaul of anything... yet.

I'm fully aware that it takes time, even if I may have missed showing it. Nothing I've said here, contrary to how it might've sounded, was meant to be a ham-fisted rush job of implementation. I'm aware of how long things take and I was just trying to ensure there was a bug in the ear to look at things moving forward. That way when "...yet" arrives, there's solutions in place. I love the two race format and I think both races should matter. I think that a team like Williams should have a risk of losing despite being faster, because the slower team put up a stellar defense in the face of lack of outright pace. It may seem absurd, but this is a different style of racing and there should be different ways to win a race aside from just being the fastest. Imagine if Calster had held up Williams all race and Lazarus snatched victory from defeat for the ultimate underdog win? That was what I was imagining and I wish they had had that chance.

It's pretty neat that a team was able to achieve it. Perhaps after the first season has ended, there'll be discussions about it. With more teams there may be an increased chance of a significant skills gap. Next weekend won't be one of those occasions.

GTPlanet League is in a constant state of tinkering. When it becomes necessary to tinker with this, I'm sure it will be tinkered with.

And there lies the crux of our disagreement. I think things still need to be tinkered with, obviously not until the season is over and probably not until the next season is over as well, and just because a solution is developed doesn't mean it needs to be rushed out. Props to Williams for the dominant performance, indeed.

 

[Jordan]

I agree that it's important the last race always counts. After the season ends I'll take a closer look at what we can do to ensure it does.

I have received a lot of feedback about the GTP League from a wide range of sources (including some very surprising ones!), and it is all appreciated. I was almost embarrassed to tell my own family and friends about this crazy idea when I first came up with it. To see this many people take such interest in it now is really exciting.

 

[davidt33]

I agree that it's important the last race always counts. After the season ends I'll take a closer look at what we can do to ensure it does.

I have received a lot of feedback about the GTP League from a wide range of sources (including some very surprising ones!), and it is all appreciated. I was almost embarrassed to tell my own family and friends about this crazy idea when I first came up with it. To see this many people take such interest in it now is really exciting.

Y'all have really done an amazing job. Quite an outstanding production and racing. Thoroughly enjoying and keep looking forward to see every event. Thanks again.

 

[JoeyLeonine]

For what it's worth - I think this is good. The format works.

Tinker if you will, 3rd team per race? Maybe? But I don't think it's needed. Just need to expand it to more teams for next 'season' is all. But call it a Beta test right?

Williams' white wash was unprecedented. But, you know what, fair play to them. They smashed it out of the park and frankly deserved to have won it after 1 race. Seems a bit anti-success/anti-performance to nerf it to an extent where that's not possible. If they play that well together then you've surely just gotta put your hands up and applaud, right?!

Granted - will become tricky when you have a whole mixed bag of talent (or lack thereof!) on show. But we'll leave matchmaking up to you guys!!!

If you need something to make dead rubbers or lost causes more 'valuable' then there's all sorts of personal/team honours that you could dish out per round/over the course of the championship that means guys like Calster can still get rewarded for effort and ability even if they've no hope of progressing further through the tourny.

Final will be a corker!

 

[O604]

What the hell???
At 7:18 in the video, it shows Team Lazarus. The graphic says the guy on the right is 8 years old, and has been playing for 3 weeks!!!
That's what I'd call a child prodigy.

One of the best screencaps ever.

 

[davidt33]

Is Calster really only 8 in true or y'all just pulling our legs?

 

[O604]

Is Calster really only 8 in true or y'all just pulling our legs?

It's a joke.

The other 3 are 12.