Is camber fixed? Discuss it here.

[CSLACR]

No, you said "the grip is closer to realistic" Closer than what?
It can't be closer than real life. Real life is real life, what is it closer to real life than?
AC? GT5? Your own lap time? What if I drive it and run a 1:07.2 on CH, and 1:04.9 on CM? Is it then less realistic?

 

[killerjimbag]

Than real life, I have built so many replica that aimed to replicate real life lap, including cornering speed, braking point, line and pacing, the YB built was aimed at Tsukuba 1:06.12 lap record ( S tires ). Another YB did 1:08s at Tsukuba back in the early 90's ( I have the video - a race against F40 on street tires ) and CM tire with camber still has too much grip compared to the lap, I had to drop to CH for 1:08.35 lap ( still with camber ) CM is capable of 1:05.8xx at Tsukuba.

For the YB in GT6, CM is close to 80's S tire ( semi slick ), and similar to Assetto Corsa YB 90's tire or lowest grip one ( I think that's what Lewis used on the video )

Your kidding. So your saying to much camber doesn't work,or the tire model doesn't work? AC and GT6 have complete different tuning parameters

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

No, you said "the grip is closer to realistic" Closer than what?
It can't be closer than real life. Real life is real life, what is it closer to real life than?
AC? GT5? Your own lap time? What if I drive it and run a 1:07.2 on CH, and 1:04.9 on CM? Is it then less realistic?

Sorry, my bad, I misunderstood your question, getting old I meant closer than when camber is less PD dun it good backward

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Your kidding. So your saying to much camber doesn't work,or the tire model doesn't work? AC and GT6 have complete different tuning parameters

I should have edited the post, it was meant to be than less camber I know what parameters AC uses, as I actually helped build a mod by inputting real life setup.

What I have found is that the camber in GT6 helped the car closer to real life grip when I built replicas.
The Yellow Bird GT6 replica was never built to be similar to the AC, it was solely built to replicate the real life lap record at Tsukuba ( both 1:06s and 1:08s ), and I used real life data ( research ) based on Sport Auto 1988 review as well literature ( RUF, Porsche ). I also consulted with Porsche owners ( forum )

 

[killerjimbag]

I should have edited the post, it was meant to be than less camber I know what parameters AC uses, as I actually helped build a mod by inputting real life setup.

AC and GT6 are video games,they are 2 complete different games. GT6 replicates nothing that transfers to "real world". Terrible tire model,terrible suspension geomitry and transmissions that are a joke.Why would you bring AC into the GT6 camber debacle? So are you saying AC's tuning is also broke, or are you making your " mod" to justify your wants and needs to fit you.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

AC and GT6 are video games,they are 2 complete different games. GT6 replicates nothing that transfers to "real world". Terrible tire model,terrible suspension geomitry and transmissions that are a joke.Why would you bring AC into the GT6 camber debacle?

Why are you so serious ? Did I do something wrong ? The video was not made by me, I'm not even driving the car on both lap. My replica was reviewed by a friend, and I learned some new things ( between AC and GT6 ) as I helped him refined a car mod in AC.

My original intention was to show that GT6 camber brings grip limit closer to realistic level ( within set parameter - car setup aimed at replicating real life performance ) Less camber makes it even further away than realistic level of grip.

It just happen that my friend has AC with YB and he can compare the replica I made as he doesn't have the real car nor other game with better rendition of YB. I will post his full review here ( it was posted in conversation )

Here it is :

"
Ok, so I've ran some laps of the 38/62 weight distribution set up in GT6, and then hopped on to AC (both games running at the same time). Tried some laps at default LSD (40%), and at 80%. There's also the option for 60% which I haven't tried.

Initial impressions are that GT6 is both too slippery and grippy at the same time, if that makes any sense whatsoever, and I'm wondering how much of this comes down to GT6's track grip settings, broken camber physics and pandering to the casual players. Between the two games, I matched the same time of day, ambient temps and weather conditions (50% GT6 / mid-heavy cloud cover AC), and in AC I set the track to optimum conditions - which is the equivalent of a whole field of cars that have rubbered in the track for many laps. The reason why I've picked this rather than a none rubbered in track that's slick and slippery is because the YB in AC would be even slower. Interestingly, the look of the lighting/atmosphere in both is very similar.

As for the car:
In GT6 with 38/62 WD, the back end steps out both more frequently, easily and by much greater angles, but at the same time, it is still holding higher cornering speeds and is easy to recover, not once did I spin or go flying off the track. In AC, both with 40% and 80% LSD, the car feels more stable/planted but has lower cornering speed ability. 80% feels too safe to me however. The biggest difference is that in AC, you only need about half of the momentum of the weight shifting around at the rear in order to put the car in a situation where it is impossible to save and you end up facing the wrong way, no matter how quickly you react, what you do with the pedals or steering wheel. If you try and shift the weight around quickly, it's going to spin every time, where in GT6 it turns into an angled drift which you can save.

Another thing I noticed is that there is more wheel spin in AC - coming out of any corner in 2nd gear - despite GT6 being on the 2nd least grippy set of tyres. To match AC in this regard and cornering speeds, I think you would have to go down to CH tyres. In my opinion the problem is when you do that on GT6, it starts to feel like you're driving in the wet, you just don't have that feeling of connection with the road. Trying to match what I was doing in GT6 either resulted in going wide or the rear coming around despite initially being at much lower slip angles than GT6, but I have always complained about this issue for lord knows how many years, GT6 is just too forgiving and allows you to be far too aggressive, that's just how the physics are. Over all, lap times in GT6 were 4-5 seconds quicker around Spa. I'd test around Tsukuba but I don't think the Tsukuba that's been modded by whoever in AC is of high enough quality, at least Spa is fully modeled and laser scanned by Kunos.

I'm going to give the 40/60 WD set up a go now, I reckon that will help match the two games closer together, so that there's less weight on the rear causing more wheel spin in 2nd, and so that the rear isn't swinging around so wildly and easily. Braking without ABS on both is pretty similar, you can feel the bite and lock up much better in AC (a result of the game physics and not the cars), but importantly the actual braking distances and point of lock up is closely matched.

So after the first test, I think CH tyres in GT6 will get the games to perform similar laps times and cornering speeds, but I don't think they'd be anything you could do to match the feeling you have in AC of driving a real car simply because it is much more advanced and has a lot more grunt to pull it off (hardware wise).

Please don't think I am criticizing your replica, by GT6 standards it feels great and you've done a great job, it's GT's physics that are letting it down rather than the car itself. If I drive in GT6 the same way I have to in AC then both feel more similar, it's when you come to pushing lap times that GT exposes it's flaws. I'll give you some more feedback on the other 40/60 WD and will probably try "stock" 43/57 as well.



Good news! It's a new Dacia Sandero!

Ok so I've tried out the 40/60 distribution and also bumped up the rear BB to 6. Did about 15 laps on GT6 and then jumped into AC, increased the tyre pressure but dropped it down to "Green" track settings (about medium grip out of all the options, takes a while for the track to come in). Within 5 laps I was just 5 hundredths off my lap time in GT6.

The 40/60 WD helps to match the AC versions corner entry understeer, tyre slip in 2nd gear and cornering speeds. There were differences here and there, and I also find it harder to get the line right in AC (need to fiddle with controller settings), but over all, the lap times are nearly identical. In GT6 I also had a couple of rear end snapping and off track moments like I did in AC when trying to drive both the same way. GT6's version still has a looser rear end, and it's still easier to regain control, but the behaviour of the car is much closer. Now if only GT had a tyre model, I bet you could get them to react very similar indeed, with the main differences being how the cars feel to drive due to the different physics engines.

I've saved a replay on each game. Driving style and lines will probably look quite different, but the particular lap replays I saved had a mere 0.03 difference.


I tested with the 4.000 final drive, the gearing was pretty much spot on so I didn't fiddle with it. I stuck with CM tyres, increasing the tyre pressure and ambient temp by 2 celsius in AC helped to make the car faster in AC. I tried to drive both the same, I fell behind in GT6 after Eau Rouge because the rear was sliding, but managed to catch up the gap at Bruxelles with a more aggressive exit that only GT6 would allow, from there on, both laps are almost identical, even the gear changes. I tried to keep the upshift time equal in GT6, as the YB in GT6 can upshift instantly, whereas in AC the game simulates this better. Basically I let go of the throttle for the same amount of time that I would in my real life car when "giving it the beans".

Though I agree that adding more camber would have helped adjust the lap time, I think it would have made the car too slippery, GT6 already feels like it's on ice when you've just come from AC, there is so much difference in the feeling even if both cars are doing the same thing. Anyway here's the video, split screen 1080p/60. '

 

[killerjimbag]

Why are you so serious ? Did I do something wrong ? The video was not made by me, I'm not even driving the car on both lap. My replica was reviewed by a friend, and I learned some new things ( between AC and GT6 ) as I helped him refined a car mod in AC.

My original intention was to show that GT6 camber brings grip limit closer to realistic level ( within set parameter - car setup aimed at replicating real life performance ) Less camber makes it even further away than realistic level of grip.

It just happen that my friend has AC with YB and he can compare the replica I made as he doesn't have the real car nor other game with better rendition of YB. I will post his full review here ( it was posted in conversation )

Really? Go tune a NASCAR on DAYTONA, put in real life numbers and real grip etc. Have fun replicating that my friend. I want to see your replica tune when your done.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Really? Go tune a NASCAR on DAYTONA, put in real life numbers and real grip etc. Have fun replicating that my friend. I want to see your replica tune when your done.

You want me to work for you ? I don't even have much play time to post my completed work, and you want me to do a lot of research, finding real life data, videos, lap times, just to satisfy your ego ? Nope, I know why you pick NASCAR, GT6 is not perfect, I never tried to make it otherwise. I only wanted to show what I found so far, and I never have to use zero camber just to get the level of grip needed after I found the closest tire.

The main reason why I have replica garage is because GT6 is not perfect, I play to make them more realistic, not the other way around. I tried the best to my ability within the confines of GT6 physics engine, not many appreciate my work ( a few regulars on my garage ), many dislike me, but that's another topic

 

[killerjimbag]

You want me to work for you ? I don't even have much play time to post my completed work, and you want me to do a lot of research, finding real life data, videos, lap times, just to satisfy your ego ? Nope, I know why you pick NASCAR, GT6 is not perfect, I never tried to make it otherwise. I only wanted to show what I found so far, and I never have to use zero camber just to get the level of grip needed after I found the closest tire.

Ha,ha has funny,no I'm quite alright in the fake tuning department.
Hear is some real world stuff that would probably help you on some future quests.
http://www.bevenyoung.com.au/config.html

Now this is even better,read the part about caster,seeing we cannot adjust this or know it's value,camber is broke,pretty hard to steer a car.
http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/nascar/icons/news/story?id=3377931

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Ha,ha has funny,no I'm quite alright in the fake tuning department.
Hear is some real world stuff that would probably help you on some future quests.
http://www.bevenyoung.com.au/config.html

I can already imagine what kind of person you are in real life with that post and from what I have seen in the past Still I got to thank you for the link, just a little more data for my collection, I'm a very patient man

 

[killerjimbag]

I can already imagine what kind of person you are in real life with that post and from what I have seen in the past Still I got to thank you for the link, just a little more data for my collection, I'm a very patient man

It's a video game bro,it's not real. Actually I'm a really cool person in "REAL" life,look at the car I drive.

 

[killerjimbag]

Well wife broke the keyboard again,your welcome for the link,going to work on my 71 Chevelle now,next project.
I actually tune real world stuff,GT6,s Chevelle model is a joke,just saying,I know real world on that.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

It's a video game bro,it's not real. Actually I'm a really cool person in "REAL" life,look at the car I drive.

It is video game, and I'm enjoying it with a different way The challenge when I have to tune within strict limitation of real life ( distribution, weight, camber and LSD ) is and lots of laps. I already have over more than 50k miles and 10k at Tsukuba alone I'm not a cool person in real life, I drive ordinary car now, much cooler 15 years ago when I actually live fast ( that's how I got into replica in GT6 - to quench my younger days thirst of fast cars )

Well wife broke the keyboard again,your welcome for the link,going to work on my 71 Chevelle now,next project.
I actually tune real world stuff,GT6,s Chevelle model is a joke,just saying,I know real world on that.

I doubt I can make GT6 Chevelle good enough for you then Maybe it it's a premium, it may just look good enough

One of my current project is RUF BTR built to become 993 GT2 EVO II, how crazy is that ? Someone requested it, and can't say no ... Camber used in real life will be used as well, along with toe and weight distribution, it will be a riot

 

[killerjimbag]

It is video game, and I'm enjoying it with a different way The challenge when I have to tune within strict limitation of real life ( distribution, weight, camber and LSD ) is and lots of laps. I already have over more than 50k miles and 10k at Tsukuba alone I'm not a cool person in real life, I drive ordinary car now, much cooler 15 years ago when I actually live fast ( that's how I got into replica in GT6 - to quench my younger days thirst of fast cars )



I doubt I can make GT6 Chevelle good enough for you then Maybe it it's a premium, it may just look good enough

One of my current project is RUF BTR built to become 993 GT2 EVO II, how crazy is that ? Someone requested it, and can't say no ... Camber used in real life will be used as well, along with toe and weight distribution, it will be a riot

View attachment 335239

No I mean real life,finished the 65 Impala last year,now I'm doing a 71 Chevelle,that's what I meant about real life.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

No I mean real life,finished the 65 Impala last year,now I'm doing a 71 Chevelle,that's what I meant about real life.

I see, sorry I misunderstood.

 

[killerjimbag]

I see, sorry I misunderstood.

No problem,been wrenching with my late father since I was a little boy.
My son and daughter get dirty to.
My daughter wants the Chevelle for graduation,oh boy,the Impala is my summer driver,will be getting it out in April.

 

[Tongates]

There's no need for a vote as there is no opinion involved; either it works properly or it doesn't.

That there's 21 pages of discussion says enough already. If camber is working properly, you should be able to produce similar results using similar values as real life or other games. The fact that you can't also says enough. The fact that you can in other games also says enough.

Just wanted to see the results from a poll. Certainly not in the debate. I've drawn my conclusions and am happy with them. Thanks for the reply. Have a good one.

 

[Tongates]

If you think you have to vote, to figure out whether camber works or not, it doesn't.

I've already figured it out. It didn't take a vote either. Just curious in the results of a poll. thx.

 

[CSLACR]

Just wanted to see the results from a poll. Certainly not in the debate. I've drawn my conclusions and am happy with them. Thanks for the reply. Have a good one.

So the delay between posts, does that mean you went and tried it for yourself?

 

[Tongates]

So the delay between posts, does that mean you went and tried it for yourself?

Nope. Prolly grinding on a seasonal event.

 

[Juim1j]

So uh is camber totally fixed?

 

[Motor City Hami]

So uh is camber totally fixed?

Wasn't that all fixed back in game update 1.09 and 1.10 and 1.11 and 1.12 and 1.13 and....

What does your testing tell you?

And we may need to define fixed. Camber works like real world = fixed? Or camber does something = fixed?

 

[Raven_WET01]

For our purposes, we'll have to say that camber affecting performance is fixed. Tuning parameters work with each other to create results, and since we have such a basic tire model there's no way we can ever make a claim about how realistic camber tuning is.

 

[Juim1j]

Wasn't that all fixed back in game update 1.09 and 1.10 and 1.11 and 1.12 and 1.13 and....

What does your testing tell you?

And we may need to define fixed. Camber works like real world = fixed? Or camber does something = fixed?

does camber work like it should, like up to a sensible amout it grips more than 0.0

 

[DolHaus]

does camber work like it should, like up to a sensible amout it grips more than 0.0

Not reliably

 

[Juim1j]

Not reliably

So what is a the average maximum amount of camber, effectivly that I should use?

 

[DolHaus]

So what is a the average maximum amount of camber, effectivly that I should use?

0.0 is generally best, occasional and track/car specific gains can be found up to about 1.5 but its very rare that you'll find something that gives consistent gain. Often its more of a secondary effect than a direct one ie. a small amount of camber on the front can make a car less twitchy or a small amount on the rear can improve rotation. These improvements are achieved by removing a tiny bit of peak grip rather than actually gaining anything and therefore should be attainable by other more positive methods such as spring or damper adjustments

 

[Voodoovaj]

Well, in the physics poll, I had to eat crow and concede that apparently the tires are quite accurate. Even the racing tires.

Are people 100% positive, supported by proof, that the camber is behaving differently than real life?

 

[Motor City Hami]

Well, in the physics poll, I had to eat crow and concede that apparently the tires are quite accurate. Even the racing tires.

Are people 100% positive, supported by proof, that the camber is behaving differently than real life?

I posted both my theory and my test. So do I believe my own theory, yes. Does the community agree on one camber theory, no. And that alone tells me that camber is still broken. If camber actually worked and in a consistent pattern to real life, there would be no debate. But PD has not given us a logical camber program, so many have found ways to use camber in different ways. Thus the debate.

 

[Rotorist]

It works for sure to change tendency to oversteer or understeer. It surely helps turn-in. it surely affects balance. So, it works for sure but not as we all think it should. I hope it sums up well the topic about camber and GT6.