Is GT6's engine sounds a dealbreaker?

[Imari]

if the sound is your main issue with the game, then you're not getting the point of the game

Why don't you feel free to tell everyone else what the point of the game they'll be looking at paying $60 for is then?

 

[humpus]

Yes the sound is a dealbreaker even though it's not the core of the game.

GT's engine sound is like a beautiful girl with a terrible voice. She's still beautiful, but everytime she talks it's really, really annoying

 

[Griffith500]

Why don't you feel free to tell everyone else what the point of the game they'll be looking at paying $60 for is then?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2zlPNGuPbw

Wouldn't it be strange to buy a game you actually don't like? Sure, we can blame marketing, but we should be wise to that crap by now. It's always a gamble; what you do with your $60, you do at your own risk, surely.

I agree, though, you can do with the game as you please. If the sounds are the same as GT5, I'll be disappointed, because there were simple things they could have done even without the new sounds. Hopefully they have some kind of contingency plan, even if it's automated rendering of their new sound method to samples to fit the current method (if that's aesthetically viable - it's not with some of my methods without serious, manual attention.)

 

[Tornado]

So that's as complex as it gets for you: "them and us"?

Why don't you tell me? You're the one who brought it up in the first place. Appeal to your own authority on the matter a bit more. Regale us with a wonderful tale why the people opposed to you are circle jerking, but the people who fall in line to agree with you aren't.



Who knows. Maybe this time it will take.

 

[Griffith500]

Why don't you tell me? You're the one who brought it up in the first place. Appeal to your own authority on the matter a bit more. Regale us with a wonderful tale why the people opposed to you are circle jerking, but the people who fall in line to agree with you aren't.



Who knows. Maybe this time it will take.

What? Who are these supposed people that are "opposed to me"? Is this you jumping in on a discussion without actually knowing what it's about, going off half-cocked again? Check your comprehension skills.

I made a comment about the typical YouTube commenter, and how they don't actually represent the wider gaming community (especially for a game with such broad appeal as GT); I don't consider society to form a dichotomy between "kids who post on YouTube" and "everyone else".

You brought that polarity into the equation ("other side"), presumably because everything is Team A vs. Team B to you, what with your debatory bent. I can only assume, of course, that, to you, I'm firmly in Team B. But I'm not actually participating in your competition.

 

[GranTurismo916]

I'm getting GT6 one way or another. The reason: It's a Gran Turismo game.

 

[SuperVeloce]

No. To be honest, I know they're not brilliant in GT5, but it doesn't actually bug me that much. I find it cool when a game does have awesome engine sounds, but it's not a dealbreaker for me. I'm happy with new cars/tracks/features really.

 

[Tornado]

What? Who are these supposed people that are "opposed to me"? Is this you jumping in on a discussion without actually knowing what it's about, going off half-cocked again? Check your comprehension skills.

I so love that wit.

I made a comment about the typical YouTube commenter, and how they don't actually represent the wider gaming community (especially for a game with such broad appeal as GT); I don't consider society to form a dichotomy between "kids who post on YouTube" and "everyone else".

His post wasn't about "the typical YouTube commenter." His post was about "the racing games/sims community," of which YouTube (the entire thing, if I had to guess, including the various comparison videos and reviews and showcases) was only one of the examples he gave of where it is represented. Now, if you want to argue that he can't comment on what "the racing games/sims community" feels in general, that's different.

You brought that polarity into the equation ("other side"), presumably because everything is Team A vs. Team B to you, what with your debatory bent. I can only assume, of course, that, to you, I'm firmly in Team B. But I'm not actually participating in your competition.

I'm pretty sure stating that there is an opposite extreme opinion to the one you disparaged where similar behavior occurs, that I further implied that you would probably have less of a problem with, does not boil everyone down to having one of only two opinions; nor does it put you firmly in either camp.

 

[avens]

I'd accept GT6 having some flaws because they are under a handicap, against the current and the next gen of consoles, but I won't for the first PS4 game, when it's fair to compare it against the rest on consoles and against what's on the PC without excuses.

At that time, lets say 2015, if the title isn't the very best then I won't buy it and stop caring about this franchise. That's when the fanboy-ism ends.

 

[TheGTGuy]

People are forgetting that Kaz said PD have a new way of recording sounds although it might not be in time for GT6 release but it can come as an update. I personally don't mind the sounds, sure an improvement would be nice but it's not something that would turn me off GT6.

 

[Griffith500]

I so love that wit.

His post wasn't about "the typical YouTube commenter." His post was about "the racing games/sims community," of which YouTube (the entire thing, if I had to guess, including the various comparison videos and reviews and showcases) was only one of the examples he gave of where it is represented. Now, if you want to argue that he can't comment on what "the racing games/sims community" feels in general, that's different.

I'm pretty sure stating that there is an opposite extreme opinion to the one you disparaged where similar behavior occurs, that I further implied that you would probably have less of a problem with, does not boil everyone down to having one of only two opinions; nor does it put you firmly in either camp.

Either way you're wrong. I don't tolerate imbecilism no matter whether I agree with their underlying opinion or not, not that I'd expect you to look beyond your prejudice on such matters (I know, irony). You have to remember (or actually first be aware) that I am as vocal about GT's sound needing improvement as anyone else.

CarBastard was specifically talking about the "laughable" aspect (or, rather, I was specifically replying to that aspect), and the particular "damaging" comments, which are by no means representative of "the entire sim racing community" as you put it, which is what I said in a later, clarifying post. I don't mean that anyone who openly criticises GT's sound is part of some back-rubbing cool-club, only those who do it in certain terms (i.e. those which would constitute mutual-congratulation and self-justification, typical of groups of "macho" adolescent males). I guess maybe I failed to properly convey the precise context I had in my mind through my post; but no-one else noticed.

You have somewhat-typically reinterpreted the posts to change the argument, though (to put it more in your preferred context of A vs. B, I mean), which is as fun as always. To think I actually once respected you! I shan't stoop to bearing a grudge just yet, though.

If it makes you feel better, I'll spell out that I wasn't referring to you in that "circle jerk" comment at all. Your camp can rest easy.

(Quite ironically, this aside has only really constituted self-gratification itself. Which was not my intent with my original post - I didn't want to start an argument.)

 

[-Cheezman-]

No one has, some might have the closest to the real car sound sample, but the reproduction while in game, none of them gets it right, most of them are dramatized/loud and lack proper sound simulation - in the cockpit should sound like as if you are in the cockpit, on most street cars, this means muffled sound to a degree, and only loud on certain cars.

I am not even touching the sonic simulation part - where sound is heard differently from different position, a car pass by in replay, a rear view sound, hood cam sound and little bits of sound details - ambient, interior noise, brake noise, tire noise, etc.

The sound sample needs to be right, or at least identifiable before you can get anything else right.

You can get the volumes right, the tire noise right, the wind noise right, but, if your McLaren F1 sounds like a Dyson... it all falls apart.

That's exactly GT's problem.

Sound is very much apart of the visceral experience of automobiles, and it should be too when you are emulating it virtually.

 

[BURIAL]

Still missing those little details, the dominant sound in track cam is engine, exhaust and drive train effects on downshift, I can't describe the technical terms for it, but the sound field/sonic simulation and effect is still lacking ( wind noise and how the car interact with air that affects how sound is produced for example )

yet still sounds 10000000x better than anything ever produced by PD.

 

[Griffith500]

yet still sounds 10000000x better than anything ever produced by PD.

You might well be right (to some degree of arbitrary accuracy), but I don't think that's the point.

For me, the fact that GT's sound has fallen so far behind (in terms of sample quality) means that it's the perfect candidate to take that daunting step into the new realms of sound generation.
Let's get away from this '80s mindset of sampling everything and "interpolating" (no matter how implausible) between sampled states, and do something new and exciting. (It'll still have its place, mind you).

For RaceRoom and games of its ilk, the imperative is smaller since the extra flexibility in such a new system isn't of that much benefit to the casual listener. But for GT, where there is supposed to be a broad range of tuning states for every car, as well as "personal expression", it really starts to make sense.


The ambient stuff is important, though, and is independent (ish) of the "generation" method. It applies to all games that are trying to do "realistic" sound. Ambience is where things are beginning to progress, but it will still largely be tackled in that same '80s mindset of brute force and ignorance. The fun part is that, in the arena of research, these problems are actively being tackled, but "nobody" has the balls to try something new, because of the heavy, top-down capitalist imperative to make lots of money (thus minimise risk and uneasiness by minimising unknowns).

PD / Sony must surely be overflowing with money from GT sales on PS3 (assuming it isn't all siphoned off to cover haemorrhaging elsewhere) that this risk is slightly more tolerable? Combine that with their apparent "attention to detail", the way they're recently "system focused" and not afraid to try something different - isn't that, in light of Kaz's comments, exciting (for PS4 at least)?

 

[Chippy569]

No one has, some might have the closest to the real car sound sample, but the reproduction while in game, none of them gets it right, most of them are dramatized/loud and lack proper sound simulation - in the cockpit should sound like as if you are in the cockpit, on most street cars, this means muffled sound to a degree, and only loud on certain cars.

I am not even touching the sonic simulation part - where sound is heard differently from different position, a car pass by in replay, a rear view sound, hood cam sound and little bits of sound details - ambient, interior noise, brake noise, tire noise, etc.

I really want to know what you think after playing a round or two of forza 5.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I really want to know what you think after playing a round or two of forza 5.

I'll look forward to videos of inboard cam on say, Ford Focus in stock condition in Forza 5, I hope I'll hear something realistic - like a stock street car should sound inside the cabin, where only some sound are loud when at speed ( wind noise, road ambient noise, tire noise ) and some are muffled ( exhaust, engine to a degree and maybe a little intake noise ). I often drive small hatch at over 60 mph on highways - Yaris for example, the road and wind noise are quite dominant, no game ever made that kind of sound

 

[Tornado]

Either way you're wrong. I don't tolerate imbecilism no matter whether I agree with their underlying opinion or not, not that I'd expect you to look beyond your prejudice on such matters (I know, irony). You have to remember (or actually first be aware) that I am as vocal about GT's sound needing improvement as anyone else.

Oh, I'm quite aware of your own stances on the various matters. I've even reconsidered quite a few things based on the detailed explanations you used to put into your posts.

The quality of GT5's doppler effect, for example, which I originally had written off as being an accidental result of the same noise glitch that used to (and maybe even still does) plague quieter cars when they are close to much louder ones. Even the quality of Forza 4's audio is something I've changed my mind on after hearing your reasoning why that isn't something for PD to work towards; since the only one who was particularly vocal about that issue before then was Tenacious D with the "everything sounds like a V8" statements.

CarBastard was specifically talking about the "laughable" aspect (or, rather, I was specifically replying to that aspect), and the particular "damaging" comments, which are by no means representative of "the entire sim racing community" as you put it, which is what I said in a later, clarifying post.

Your later, clarifying post changed CarBastard's original "general opinion" statement to "Those little boys on YouTube." Now, perhaps you did not intend to conflate the two at the time, but you've explained yourself quite a bit better since, so no matter.

You have somewhat-typically reinterpreted the posts to change the argument, though (to put it more in your preferred context of A vs. B, I mean), which is as fun as always.

So what did I reinterpret? You took the ultra extreme subset of his original statement rather than debate the admittedly-tenuous validity that it had in the first place, and I wondered aloud if the sentiment would be the same if the shoe was on the other foot. My initial post wasn't even a specifically-targeted response; and it would apply far more to other members than it would to you anyway.

To think I actually once respected you! I shan't stoop to bearing a grudge just yet, though.

I feel I can stand to lose the respect of someone who uses his own position as a justification for why things are true. The drop in effort is the a real shame, though. Your posts were a lot more informative and enjoyable, even when arguing from the "other side" (as you would say), before you started referring to your own expertise for why something is the case in lieu of giving the actual reasoning behind it.

I really want to know what you think after playing a round or two of forza 5.

The news released about Forza 5's sound recording/mixing process hasn't sounded particularly hopeful so far. It's not "dub engine sounds onto electric cars in marketing materials" level, but the "roar of a lion" bit certainly doesn't instill confidence that they are targeting accuracy over "cool" or "loud".

 

[Tenacious D]

If you take it to extremes, would you drive the car if it squealed in your ear like a 14 year old girl going on a date with Justin Beiber? Probably not. It'd just be unpleasant.

This is a great point. Let me bring up my experience with GTR 1.

I HATED the engine sounds. I'm sure they were realistic, but oh... my.... LORD were they annoying. I had to use headphones, because I hadn't gone to the trouble of getting some good - i.e. rather pricey - PC speakers to replace my pricey speakers which died, or getting a stereo for the computer. Those sounds, literally, gave me a headache. I had to turn the game down, and this pretty much killed the game because then I couldn't hear the tires. So I couldn't take turns right, constantly going off track and getting constant annoying "Stay on the track, please" warnings. Then the Starforce copy protection scheme bit me, and the PC made my Logitech wheel controller die, which I unfairly blamed on the game - I think - so at that point I was livid. I can't remember whatever happened to the game.

When I got a proper PC wheel, a G25, I decided to give GTR Evo and 2 a whirl, and was delighted. The engine sounds were the pasteurized, homogenized variety of most racing games, and the annoying life of the GTR 1 samples was gone. And I could adjust the levels of the various sound samples so I could boost the tire sounds to a useful - i.e. unrealistic - level, though I can't remember now if GTR gave me that option.

I will tell you that when I first played Forza 4, I reused to upgrade the mufflers because the exhaust sounds were already so annoyingly race car-like - even BEETLES! Good grief. I finally did exhaust upgrades when I picked it back up again this spring, but only here and there, and ONLY to make "race modified" cars.

I will also tell you that some of that real life racing footage really bugs my ears too. So did one replay example of Asseto Corsa. I've seen plenty of live footage of racing of all kinds, and attended some races and SCCA track days, so I know it's not loud roaring cars that vex me, but the tastes of the sound team processing those samples.

Your vexation may vary.

 

[Chippy569]

@ridox and tornado - from Gamescom, Gamersyde has two direct-audio clips, one of the P1 and and one of the Focus. http://www.gamersyde.com/news_gc_more_forza_5-14500_en.html You'll particularly like the Focus one as it changes views.

sorry to get off topic.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Let's not forget real racing car driver wore ear plugs and helmet with comm system in their race cars, they surely won't hear as loud as we hear in games, otherwise they'll get tortured while racing

 

[humpus]

@ridox and tornado - from Gamescom, Gamersyde has two direct-audio clips, one of the P1 and and one of the Focus. http://www.gamersyde.com/news_gc_more_forza_5-14500_en.html

sorry to get off topic.

Auwch. And I'm saying that as a GT fan.

 

[frason]

No.

 

[Griffith500]

Oh, I'm quite aware of your own stances on the various matters. I've even reconsidered quite a few things based on the detailed explanations you used to put into your posts.

The quality of GT5's doppler effect, for example, which I originally had written off as being an accidental result of the same noise glitch that used to (and maybe even still does) plague quieter cars when they are close to much louder ones. Even the quality of Forza 4's audio is something I've changed my mind on after hearing your reasoning why that isn't something for PD to work towards; since the only one who was particularly vocal about that issue before then was Tenacious D with the "everything sounds like a V8" statements.

Your later, clarifying post changed CarBastard's original "general opinion" statement to "Those little boys on YouTube." Now, perhaps you did not intend to conflate the two at the time, but you've explained yourself quite a bit better since, so no matter.

So what did I reinterpret? You took the ultra extreme subset of his original statement rather than debate the admittedly-tenuous validity that it had in the first place, and I wondered aloud if the sentiment would be the same if the shoe was on the other foot. My initial post wasn't even a specifically-targeted response; and it would apply far more to other members than it would to you anyway.

I feel I can stand to lose the respect of someone who uses his own position as a justification for why things are true. The drop in effort is the a real shame, though. Your posts were a lot more informative and enjoyable, even when arguing from the "other side" (as you would say), before you started referring to your own expertise for why something is the case in lieu of giving the actual reasoning behind it.

...

The drop in "effort" is a combination of things. Life, for one (as I'm sure you'll understand), and in that I cannot find a reliable alternative to having to constantly reiterate previous reasoning without shamelessly self-quoting (and becoming too introspective and static with it). It's also a tremendous waste of my time, to some extent, especially when I'd been without my PC for several months (massive efficiency drop). I don't appeal to my own "expertise" so much as to previous "reasonings", which are always open to further scrutiny. I'd say I focus more on education, of which everyone is capable - I'm not a very good teacher, though.

But the main problem is that nobody really puts any effort in themselves; nobody seems to want to educate themselves in the way that I had to to be able to produce the "reasoning" of the distant past (right or wrong). Should they have to? Who knows; but the problem is pervasive in society in general, so it's likely a lost cause anyway.

Nice that you were railing against your perception of my personal circumstances and not the point I was making - slightly extrapolated though it was from CarBastard's post. I really don't care what supposedly damaging comments might be being posted by / for the small sliver of the "sim community" that reads such things. Of all the people I personally know who play GT games, I'm the only one who reads others' opinions of it on the internet, let alone contribute their own in that same forum. And, it has to be said, the most superficially "damaging" comments are those coming from the "little boys". Proper critique ("laughing stock" implies something else), as you know, is only ever constructive, in that it produces something better as a result, and that's not something I would have stopped at all.

I still think people believe I post for different reasons than what I actually do ("other shoe"), and I'm fed up with being dragged into other people's wars, or debates for debating's sake.



I'd like to hear a direct-feed replay of FM5; so far it seems less distorted, which is promising.

 

[gtracedriver1]

Pre-ordeing GT6. I think it will be the best racing game of the current gen. Sounds should be fine. Not too bothered about it at all

 

[TomBrady]

Pre-ordeing GT6. I think it will be the best racing game of the current gen. Sounds should be fine. Not too bothered about it at all

Completely agreed.

Plus I really believe they will fix the sounds too. Whether it's by release, or whether it's for the Spec 2 update, I'm sure they will be fixed.

Even if they're not fixed, it'll still be the best GT ever.

Honestly, anyone that won't buy a game over one aspect has themselves to blame. If you're gonna be nitpicky you deserve to be disappointed.

 

[IceMan PJN]

I don't like the two poll choices. I picked the "no" option but don't agree with the wording that says the game will be awesome. It will be alright, it will be playable, but I wouldn't go so far as predicting "awesome." There's too many things PD needs to improve over GT5 in areas PD seems to care little about. It doesn't bother them if they release products that are a mixed bag of diamonds and turds.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I also didn't vote because I don't like the poll options. A simple yes or no would have sufficed. Sounds alone are not a deal breaker for me yet, but could be in the future combined with other things. I have a huge PS platform inertia, so until something better comes along on PS4, I'm stuck with the GT series for now.

 

[Conza]

Why don't you feel free to tell everyone else what the point of the game they'll be looking at paying $60 for is then?

If you read the post again, I did make a sweeping generalisation as to the point of the game, and I do feel free to state my opinion, which I did...

 

[machschnel]

If you read the post again, I did make a sweeping generalisation as to the point of the game, and I do feel free to state my opinion, which I did...

So you can state your opinion freely (ie. sounds aren't the point of GT) but if someone else states their opinion (ie sounds are a very important part of GT) they're "not getting the point of the game"?

 

[Imari]

If you read the post again, I did make a sweeping generalisation as to the point of the game, and I do feel free to state my opinion, which I did...

You certainly did. And your post is yet another example of the "if you don't like GT, you can bugger off" style of argument that seems so popular at the moment.

You're free to have an opinion for yourself. For you, sound is not a dealbreaker. You're not alone in that, and that's fine.

You're not free to tell other people how they should be playing the game. Other people have their own opinions on what is most important, and they're probably not the same as yours.