Is GT7's overall understeering tendency just "wrong"?

[Greycap]

When I bought Project Cars 2, I was horrible, I think I had the AI turned down to almost 50% difficulty and I was having some fun races. I eventually worked that up to somewhere like 80-90% and continued to have fun races. Only a few times I found I had the difficulty too hard or too easy, but it was still a fun race and quite the battle.

In Project Cars 2, if I lost a race it was because I was in first, probably many times but just couldn’t hold onto it. Or the AI made a good pass or I felt the pressure and flubbed up.

In GT7 or any gran Turismo for that matter, if I lose a race it’s because I simply couldn’t catch the leader before the race was over. I don’t think I’ve ever been in first place and then lost first place during the race. And that’s the difference between GT7 and other racing sims.

Does PC2 give you rewards from doing well, or is the good race itself the reward? That makes a huge difference to the average gamer. Just about nobody wants to play a game that works on a credit winning system if they can't win the credits, they're two entirely different genres that happen to have car racing in common. And GT is obviously the wrong one for you, do everyone a favour and move to PC2, ACC or whatever without ever looking back unless you get some twisted kicks about keeping playing a game you know you hate and then telling everyone about it.

Look, they’ve been bragging up their physics since day one, yet keep tweaking it, if it was so good, why do you constantly fix and change it?

You keep bringing this up and I'll answer the same thing as before: there are three options. One, keep everything as it was at release, and have people complain because it's not being improved. Two, keep working on it and only release the game when it's fully finished, and have people complain because the release keeps getting postponed. Three, improve it by updates, and have people complain because things change.

You sure like to complain. No update is going to change that.

 

[Sir Crashalot]

The AI is bizarre

This describes it very well! I got absolutely frustrated over the last weeks trying to get at least somewhat realistic and enthralling custom races but it's just not possible, so I gave up.

 

[Alfa Romeo GT]

The big problem with having a field full of competitive AI cars is the average GT player, unfortunately. In the games where the AI races hard and fast the racing itself is the reward, but put that in a GT game and nobody's going to believe the amount of crying about it being too hard.

People want to win everything, they want it now, and preferably with as little effort as possible. Give them races where every overtake has to be earned by being smarter and faster than the AI and it's not going to end well, the overwhelming majority of players don't have the patience to hone their skills so that they can actually finish third instead of eighth, let alone win. They'll drop the series like it's hot and that's a problem because PD has to sell it to an audience as large as possible. They're in the business to make money, not an excellent simulation for a small niche of diehard sim racers.

I agree, but the problem is that even with customized racing and rubberbanding (boost) removed, the AI always boosts or slows down depending on your position.

And we even have this problem for Sophy in hard difficulty, especially in Le Mans, where she'll be restricted on the long straights.

I agree that the game should be designed for occasional / average players.
The problem is, what's the point of difficulty if you feel that the AI is playing with you rather than racing you.

There's nothing more enjoyable than being humiliated in acceleration because a Shelby G.T.350 controlled by a Sophy has much more torque than my s2000 on laguna seca, this is normal.

This meant I had to be much faster in the corners, which made the race very enjoyable with sophy since we regularly overtake each other...
Except on the last lap, when the ford lost magically all its horsepower ...

They have a gem in their hands and they don't do much with it.

 

[hawkeyez]

Does PC2 give you rewards from doing well, or is the good race itself the reward? That makes a huge difference to the average gamer. Just about nobody wants to play a game that works on a credit winning system if they can't win the credits, they're two entirely different genres that happen to have car racing in common. And GT is obviously the wrong one for you, do everyone a favour and move to PC2, ACC or whatever without ever looking back unless you get some twisted kicks about keeping playing a game you know you hate and then telling everyone about it.

You keep bringing this up and I'll answer the same thing as before: there are three options. One, keep everything as it was at release, and have people complain because it's not being improved. Two, keep working on it and only release the game when it's fully finished, and have people complain because the release keeps getting postponed. Three, improve it by updates, and have people complain because things change.

You sure like to complain. No update is going to change that.

PC2 was rewarding in the racing itself. They could have done single player a bit better. GT Legends is still the best for me, felt like I was working my way up to better and better car classes. You had to win championships to unlock the next class if I remember correctly. Gran Turismo has always been a grind. I do keep coming back to it with each release thinking it’ll be different for some reason.

GT7 has a lot of good things going for it. If I didn’t like the game, I wouldn’t be playing it. There are simply aspects of it that are frustrating. IF the AI was better or at least closer to how PC2 was with its difficulty and aggression sliders, you would have a hard time pulling me away from the game. And also credit earning wouldn’t be a grind because it would be an enjoyable race with the bonus of credits, rather than I better do some single player garbage to get my credits back up. Bleh, chase the rabbit.

We can discuss the physics all we want, we will butt heads on it every time. The update before this latest one, I felt ripped off on my wheel, everything was so feather light compared to how it was before. Why do I have an 11nm direct drive wheel and with everything cranked up it feels like I’m steering a boat? But only on some cars? Now the weight is back but they’ve added that goofy tire scrubbing effect. It just never ends.

My issue is, please just settle on something already and leave it because every time they change it, it feels like somebody went into your kitchen and completely reorganized your cupboards for you. I just got used of it or accepted it for what it was and it’s changed yet again. I’d rather them stick with something even if it wasn’t the best (it still isn’t) than have them chase their tail on it. Most games are like that though, gamers these days like their drastic updates and complain if the game hadn’t had an update change recently. I’m all for content updates, but when it comes to physics and how the game feels, just leave it alone, I’ll either like it or I won’t.

 

[Voodoovaj]

This describes it very well! I got absolutely frustrated over the last weeks trying to get at least somewhat realistic and enthralling custom races but it's just not possible, so I gave up.

What irks me is that setting the AI to "professional" still has them using partial throttle in the straights.

The custom race is completely optional and for pure entertainment purposes (payout notwithstanding). So, why is the difficulty setting so anemic? Why not, at a minimum, allow the AI to use full throttle? Why must they fall inline with one another?

Like, this is a choice, not a limitation. It doesn't matter what car they use, they use partial throttle. They drive slow. Is it a matter of keeping the accidents to a minimum?

 

[hawkeyez]

What irks me is that setting the AI to "professional" still has them using partial throttle in the straights.

The custom race is completely optional and for pure entertainment purposes (payout notwithstanding). So, why is the difficulty setting so anemic? Why not, at a minimum, allow the AI to use full throttle? Why must they fall inline with one another?

Like, this is a choice, not a limitation. It doesn't matter what car they use, they use partial throttle. They drive slow. Is it a matter of keeping the accidents to a minimum?

I suggested an idea awhile ago, they can obviously dial sophy difficulty up and down, so if they allowed you to qualify, analyze your lap time and have their AI run similar lap times that could possibly work.

Same as the PC2 difficulty slider only it’s done behind the scenes. Run the race at 88% but just can’t take first place, knock it down to 87% and it’s a battle but you win. Yeah it maybe feels a bit like cheating but it created some incredible races with AI.

Having AI match your qualifying times or an average of five laps would make for close racing no matter what your skill level.

Yes people could botch their qualify times, but that’s up to them. The rest of us can run our best and enjoy it.

 

[LSFDRX]

What irks me is that setting the AI to "professional" still has them using partial throttle in the straights.

The custom race is completely optional and for pure entertainment purposes (payout notwithstanding). So, why is the difficulty setting so anemic? Why not, at a minimum, allow the AI to use full throttle? Why must they fall inline with one another?

Like, this is a choice, not a limitation. It doesn't matter what car they use, they use partial throttle. They drive slow. Is it a matter of keeping the accidents to a minimum?

There's all sorts of things wrong with custom races.

I set up one on the Nurburgring a while back. I was in a lightly tuned AE86 against a field of similar class stuff. I sat and waited for a bit at the start line, was able to pass all of them trodding along with no pace, fully stopped at the Ausfahrt exit path and waited for all of them to pass, and then passed them all again before the carousel.

When I was sitting there they were probably going 20-30mph... just putzing along. This is on the hardest difficulty. I don't even know what the boost settings change because nothing seems to up the pace of the AI at all.

Same thing in a "multi-class" custom race. 3 laps of Nurburgring endurance in the Gr4 M4 against 9 other Gr4s and 10 Gr3s. The AI Gr3s dropped like 30sec off their pace in the second lap, and I easily beat them all in the M4. Almost every AI car would also indicate and "move out of the way", even the Gr3s... in what race would a faster class, non-backmarker indicate for you to pas them?! GT7s AI programming model just doesn't allow for any actual competition.

This is the main reason I've hardly ever done any custom races. The AI are so painfully, boringly slow that it is a waste of time for them to be on track at all. If I'm going to do a "custom" race I just do a Sophy race. They have their own bag of issues, but at least the AI put up somewhat of a fight and provide some entertainment.

 

[hawkeyez]

I made a custom muscle car race and it’s pretty good for like four or five laps and then it’s trash. Full field, start at the back, that’s the only way to make it feel like it’s a race and it’s tightly packed. Drive cautious to extend the fun. If I put myself at the front it wouldn’t even be a challenge, it just takes that long to get through the AI driving side by side. It took a bit of tweaking to setup, not going to do that for every type of car when other games don’t require monkeying around with it all. Lol

 

[Sir Crashalot]

What irks me is that setting the AI to "professional" still has them using partial throttle in the straights.

The custom race is completely optional and for pure entertainment purposes (payout notwithstanding). So, why is the difficulty setting so anemic? Why not, at a minimum, allow the AI to use full throttle? Why must they fall inline with one another?

Like, this is a choice, not a limitation. It doesn't matter what car they use, they use partial throttle. They drive slow. Is it a matter of keeping the accidents to a minimum?

If it was just the 96% thing you could at least counter that. But it's much more.

The back of the field drives extremely slow. When starting last you often pass more than half of the field on the first lap without even pushing, and that's even true for one make races!

On every layout of Nürburgring that includes Nordschleife, there's still that bug that cars just put the indicator and let you pass. Recently I even had P1 doing this! Think about it: Nordschleife is, and I think we all agree here, one of the most beloved tracks in the game. This bug exists for ages and PD just doesn't care!

And, last but not least, the AI just acts absolutely unprofessional. I had a custom race on Saint Croix B 2 days ago. I drove the F-150 and passed the Porsche at P1 just before the bridge. On the bridge I was in the right lane and the Porsche, having better acceleration, passed me on the left lane. And then, before the lefthander at the end of the bridge, instead of staying on the left lane, the Porsche pulled in front of me and instantly hit the brakes! I watched the replay and there were maybe 20 centimeters between our cars. Absolutely no chance to react!

 

[Voodoovaj]

I suggested an idea awhile ago, they can obviously dial sophy difficulty up and down, so if they allowed you to qualify, analyze your lap time and have their AI run similar lap times that could possibly work.

Same as the PC2 difficulty slider only it’s done behind the scenes. Run the race at 88% but just can’t take first place, knock it down to 87% and it’s a battle but you win. Yeah it maybe feels a bit like cheating but it created some incredible races with AI.

Having AI match your qualifying times or an average of five laps would make for close racing no matter what your skill level.

Yes people could botch their qualify times, but that’s up to them. The rest of us can run our best and enjoy it.

I get the sense that Sophy will be the default for the next iteration. Also, I'm all for qualifying in single player, like the original

 

[hawkeyez]

I get the sense that Sophy will be the default for the next iteration. Also, I'm all for qualifying in single player, like the original

Depends on what racing game is available when GT8 comes out. Used to play GT5, got GT6 the Chewbacca tire howls were way too comical and having to re-earn everything again, I think we all jumped ship to Project Cars and never looked back. Bought GT7 because it’s been kinda slim pickings for racing games with older vehicles.

I’m sure SOPHY will be the default, I doubt they’ll do the qualify and adapt to your qualify time. It might be promised but could be delivered years later. I think the single player races have just grown old on me finally. I’m frustrated because they could be way better than they are.

Doubt GT8 will be a significant change from GT7. GT7 felt very much like every other Gran Turismo game when first playing it. Aside from the livery editor which is literally the one thing that keeps me interested, paint a car up, get the urge to drive it. Race on the weekend for a couple hours, play any other game all week.

Yeah I’d love to have grid start races with qualifying. It’s a pipedream.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Yeah I’d love to have grid start races with qualifying.

Remember, we do have grid start races. Just, not enough of them.

 

[PirovacBoy]

Hello there
I just wanted to chip in on the Ai Discussion in Custom Race settings.
Although it is completely off topic here but seeing so many comments I thought I might add my 2 cents as well.
So here we go.
And to be clear straight away as these are just mainly my personal observations, but from my experience Racing the Ai under my custom race settings, I have to admit that to me they give me an extremely tough and realistic hence very rewarding challenge.
No matter what car class or track, the racing itself is mostly very immersive and challenging.
It might be down to my approach or settings, as well as the fact that many of you guys most probably are way better and faster drivers than me.
I mean I don't know what exactly it is which makes it differ completely from the experience I get in these custom setup races.
Me personally I always aim for the following kind/type of racing experience.
I want to work my way up the field without having ANY sort of contact / incidents.
I want to creep up and fight for every tenth.
I don't do anything on track which could cause an incident or might lead to dangerous situations.
I treat the Ai the same way I treat Human players.
I give space, I never dive bomb, I don't take unnecessary risks or force my way up the field.
Every overtake is well prepared and executed in a safe and fair way.

So this is basically my mindset when racing in general, no matter if it's an Ai or a human player.
To achieve this sort of racing environment a few things have to be taken into account.
The AI has to be balanced to my skill level which I achieve by doing the following steps.

First of all I always make sure that:
My car has less power.
My car has less grippy tires.
My car has worse brakes.
My car has worse suspension.
My car has slightly less top speed.
My car has no ABS/ESC

The above goes for all non GT group cars.

For GT group cars I make sure that:
My car has less power
My car has less top speed
My car has no ABS/ESC

Now we have to take a look at the global custom race settings.

I always go for an 1hour endurance race.
I always go for a 20 car grid with me starting either last or second to last.
I always set damage to full/non self repair.
I always turn on side contact and short cut penalties to strong.
I always set the boost option to weak, this is a very very important setting.
The tire / fuel consumption setting is a personal preference setting but I personally always set it up the way that every car has to pit at least once.
The Weather settings are always random same goes for the time of day, which actually is also a completely personal thing.

So with these settings as described above I honestly must say that the racing against the Ai is more enjoyable in most cases then racing against human players.
I really have to work super hard to gain positions.
The Ai is very cautious and aware of what is going on around them.
They are extremely fair yet they will try to fight for their position and won't hand it over for free.

If I can finish in the top 5 to top 10 I really have to drive smart and almost faultless.
Winning these races is impossible for me.
But that's how it should be.
Because starting last and gaining sometimes 15 to 20sec gap on the leader till the end of the race is nothing which usually happens in real life too.

Of course occasionally it happens that with some smart tire/fuel saving I can sneak in a win but even then it's mostly a head to head run to the finish line.

So to sum it up, for me personally, it all depends on the settings you put up and the way you approach the race.

And to be very precise, the Ai can be set to challenge any skill level the player has.
But like I said before maybe I'm just not a good driver and on top of that slow.

But man I absolutely enjoy racing the AI and prefer them over 99% of human players.
Because they race me with the same respect I do.
And for me it's always fair play first.
No contacts at all and always clean and fair.
Because, you get what you give.
Win with honor and loose in pride.

 

[Scaff]

Hello there
I just wanted to chip in on the Ai Discussion in Custom Race settings.
Although it is completely off topic here but seeing so many comments I thought I might add my 2 cents as well.
So here we go.
And to be clear straight away as these are just mainly my personal observations, but from my experience Racing the Ai under my custom race settings, I have to admit that to me they give me an extremely tough and realistic hence very rewarding challenge.
No matter what car class or track, the racing itself is mostly very immersive and challenging.
It might be down to my approach or settings, as well as the fact that many of you guys most probably are way better and faster drivers than me.
I mean I don't know what exactly it is which makes it differ completely from the experience I get in these custom setup races.
Me personally I always aim for the following kind/type of racing experience.
I want to work my way up the field without having ANY sort of contact / incidents.
I want to creep up and fight for every tenth.
I don't do anything on track which could cause an incident or might lead to dangerous situations.
I treat the Ai the same way I treat Human players.
I give space, I never dive bomb, I don't take unnecessary risks or force my way up the field.
Every overtake is well prepared and executed in a safe and fair way.

So this is basically my mindset when racing in general, no matter if it's an Ai or a human player.
To achieve this sort of racing environment a few things have to be taken into account.
The AI has to be balanced to my skill level which I achieve by doing the following steps.

First of all I always make sure that:
My car has less power.
My car has less grippy tires.
My car has worse brakes.
My car has worse suspension.
My car has slightly less top speed.
My car has no ABS/ESC

The above goes for all non GT group cars.

For GT group cars I make sure that:
My car has less power
My car has less top speed
My car has no ABS/ESC

Now we have to take a look at the global custom race settings.

I always go for an 1hour endurance race.
I always go for a 20 car grid with me starting either last or second to last.
I always set damage to full/non self repair.
I always turn on side contact and short cut penalties to strong.
I always set the boost option to weak, this is a very very important setting.
The tire / fuel consumption setting is a personal preference setting but I personally always set it up the way that every car has to pit at least once.
The Weather settings are always random same goes for the time of day, which actually is also a completely personal thing.

So with these settings as described above I honestly must say that the racing against the Ai is more enjoyable in most cases then racing against human players.
I really have to work super hard to gain positions.
The Ai is very cautious and aware of what is going on around them.
They are extremely fair yet they will try to fight for their position and won't hand it over for free.

If I can finish in the top 5 to top 10 I really have to drive smart and almost faultless.
Winning these races is impossible for me.
But that's how it should be.
Because starting last and gaining sometimes 15 to 20sec gap on the leader till the end of the race is nothing which usually happens in real life too.

Of course occasionally it happens that with some smart tire/fuel saving I can sneak in a win but even then it's mostly a head to head run to the finish line.

So to sum it up, for me personally, it all depends on the settings you put up and the way you approach the race.

And to be very precise, the Ai can be set to challenge any skill level the player has.
But like I said before maybe I'm just not a good driver and on top of that slow.

But man I absolutely enjoy racing the AI and prefer them over 99% of human players.
Because they race me with the same respect I do.
And for me it's always fair play first.
No contacts at all and always clean and fair.
Because, you get what you give.
Win with honor and loose in pride.

If you have to do all of that, then the AI isn't good. Good AI can give you a good race in identical or same class cars.

More than enough titles manage this, GT unfortunately isn't one of them. What you are doing here is simply giving the AI an advantage in almost every way, and i still don't buy that this will remove some of GTs more obvious AI issues (such as brake checking).

 

[PirovacBoy]

If you have to do all of that, then the AI isn't good. Good AI can give you a good race in identical or same class cars.

More than enough titles manage this, GT unfortunately isn't one of them. What you are doing here is simply giving the AI an advantage in almost every way, and i still don't buy that this will remove some of GTs more obvious AI issues (such as brake checking).

Well I wouldn't say that the Ai isn't good per se.
I'd say that it's just not set up or programmed in it's default setting to give the player a challenging experience out ot the box, I agree on that point.
And yes I also agree that an average player has to put oneself on some disadvantages on paper, yet, it's basically just the only way to achieve thrilling close and engaging races against the Ai.
Unfortunately it is what it is.
I would also prefer the way like PC1 or PC2 do it.
That was the perfect and most convenient way to me, and still is besides the GT series the best racing game I have experienced imo and for me personally.

 

[Scaff]

Well I wouldn't say that the Ai isn't good per se.

I would, it isn't.

I'd say that it's just not set up or programmed in it's default setting to give the player a challenging experience out ot the box, I agree on that point.
And yes I also agree that an average player has to put oneself on some disadvantages on paper, yet, it's basically just the only way to achieve thrilling close and engaging races against the Ai.

Your address race pace, but not the lack of racecraft it also displays.

Unfortunately it is what it is.
I would also prefer the way like PC1 or PC2 do it.
That was the perfect and most convenient way to me, and still is besides the GT series the best racing game I have experienced imo and for me personally.

PCs AI is better than GT, that i works agree, and others are better still.

 

[PirovacBoy]

I would, it isn't.

Like I said I would disagree on that but fair play. Maybe they don't drive to some certain standards or ethics but they are not bad in general.

Your address race pace, but not the lack of racecraft it also displays.

Again as this is directly tied to the above, but judging by GTs' self imposed and chosen by design very unique driving etiquette, my experience is very different in terms of race craft.

PCs AI is better than GT, that i works agree, and others are better still.

There are for sure other games which are doing it even better, no doubt about that.
But I can only judge what I have experienced as a console only player.
ACC is not bad too, but I prefer PC over that all day long.

 

[Sir Crashalot]

Hello there
I just wanted to chip in on the Ai Discussion in Custom Race settings.
Although it is completely off topic here but seeing so many comments I thought I might add my 2 cents as well.
So here we go.
And to be clear straight away as these are just mainly my personal observations, but from my experience Racing the Ai under my custom race settings, I have to admit that to me they give me an extremely tough and realistic hence very rewarding challenge.
No matter what car class or track, the racing itself is mostly very immersive and challenging.
It might be down to my approach or settings, as well as the fact that many of you guys most probably are way better and faster drivers than me.
I mean I don't know what exactly it is which makes it differ completely from the experience I get in these custom setup races.
Me personally I always aim for the following kind/type of racing experience.
I want to work my way up the field without having ANY sort of contact / incidents.
I want to creep up and fight for every tenth.
I don't do anything on track which could cause an incident or might lead to dangerous situations.
I treat the Ai the same way I treat Human players.
I give space, I never dive bomb, I don't take unnecessary risks or force my way up the field.
Every overtake is well prepared and executed in a safe and fair way.

So this is basically my mindset when racing in general, no matter if it's an Ai or a human player.
To achieve this sort of racing environment a few things have to be taken into account.
The AI has to be balanced to my skill level which I achieve by doing the following steps.

First of all I always make sure that:
My car has less power.
My car has less grippy tires.
My car has worse brakes.
My car has worse suspension.
My car has slightly less top speed.
My car has no ABS/ESC

The above goes for all non GT group cars.

For GT group cars I make sure that:
My car has less power
My car has less top speed
My car has no ABS/ESC

Now we have to take a look at the global custom race settings.

I always go for an 1hour endurance race.
I always go for a 20 car grid with me starting either last or second to last.
I always set damage to full/non self repair.
I always turn on side contact and short cut penalties to strong.
I always set the boost option to weak, this is a very very important setting.
The tire / fuel consumption setting is a personal preference setting but I personally always set it up the way that every car has to pit at least once.
The Weather settings are always random same goes for the time of day, which actually is also a completely personal thing.

So with these settings as described above I honestly must say that the racing against the Ai is more enjoyable in most cases then racing against human players.
I really have to work super hard to gain positions.
The Ai is very cautious and aware of what is going on around them.
They are extremely fair yet they will try to fight for their position and won't hand it over for free.

If I can finish in the top 5 to top 10 I really have to drive smart and almost faultless.
Winning these races is impossible for me.
But that's how it should be.
Because starting last and gaining sometimes 15 to 20sec gap on the leader till the end of the race is nothing which usually happens in real life too.

Of course occasionally it happens that with some smart tire/fuel saving I can sneak in a win but even then it's mostly a head to head run to the finish line.

So to sum it up, for me personally, it all depends on the settings you put up and the way you approach the race.

And to be very precise, the Ai can be set to challenge any skill level the player has.
But like I said before maybe I'm just not a good driver and on top of that slow.

But man I absolutely enjoy racing the AI and prefer them over 99% of human players.
Because they race me with the same respect I do.
And for me it's always fair play first.
No contacts at all and always clean and fair.
Because, you get what you give.
Win with honor and loose in pride.

I'm sure you can get better races this way, although some things just can't be changed, like the indicator thingy on Nürburgring or the fact that the AI is always slow as f through the COD on Dragon Trail.

But with all respect, how long does it take you to find all the right settings whenever you choose a new car? I guess it's a lot of trial and error before you find the settings that give you a close race. I won't say I don't have the time for this but I definitely don't have the patience.