Isla Vista Killing Rampage. May 23rd 2014

[mirial]

Even though he had a disorder, it would have helped no end to have broken his duck with a good looking older woman. He would have been swaggering like John Wayne for weeks and become instantly more attractive.

 

[Azuremen]

I don't know why you're attacking me, but you seem content to tell me that everything I say is wrong.

What would you say to the kid?

Don't worry about it too much, just imagine him as a version of me that only plays the pedant on select topics to the point of absurdity.

Spoken like someone with zero experience dealing with mental health.

Oh hey, I have. The guy is dead, playing to his feelings isn't going to change the situation. It is pretty clear he had problems, but it doesn't change the fact he took a cowardly course of action of making victims out of those he projected his issues on. Trying to explain it through his perspective, that of a pseudo-intellectual sociopath, doesn't change this at all.

It is like you're stuck on the overly political correct bus and don't realize there are times to get off it.

He was basically Mr. Nice guy, educated, good-looking, slightly different, living in a provincial but probably culturally incestuous area, in the wrong era, aiming for top-bracket women who like pigs, and was deeply, deeply frustrated with it all. Yep, I know what he means as I've been there, as have a couple of friends who have been strangers to the place where we live, but a stronger man takes to the challenge of addressing the problem, rather than complaining and shooting people up. I can't help thinking that somehow he's turned down lots of less attractive women along the way.....maybe someone could confirm?

Yes, slobs and losers with beautiful girls....it's common place, but that's the very attraction for women that have their choice. He should have moved to Asia (where they like nice men), or just aimed at his target market locally, ie. a bit lower with girls who don't flaunt it whilst trying to improve his technique to make up for a lesser personality.

Odds are he chased off lots of girls that may have been interested at first. Though I wouldn't call top-bracket like pigs and would really, really evaluate what the hell you're saying, because it screams inexperience and ignorance.

And the Asian comment just has me rolling my eyes. The frequency I hear this comment from so called "nice" guys that have trouble getting girls in Western countries is just baffling.

 

[Tornado]

Spoken like someone with zero experience dealing with mental health.

So what's your practical experience with people who go on sociopathic shooting rampages?

 

[Azuremen]

So what's your practical experience with people who go on sociopathic shooting rampages?

He is an educator in Australia, so obviously an expert. Because teacher is always right.

 

[Dotini]

There are many, many threads posted here on GTP that are based on stories of violence, mayhem and murder by young, disturbed men. The genre is true crime, and is not exactly the most elevating subject to discuss. Also it's not at all easy to discuss in the initial revelation, since many important facts are still unknown.

It does seem to be established he was diagnosed and under treatment for a mental disorder, and it seems he comes from an affluent family, had access to guns and cars, but was very poorly socialized. Was he on meds? Sounds fairly typical of a lot prominent cases in recent years. Predictably, jackasses are coming out on TV to blame everything from guns to incipient homosexuality.

I can state my opinion based on cases I am intimately acquainted with; (1) that this sort of crime did not commonly occur decades ago like it does today, and (2) the most likely underlying cause of many of these sorts of crimes is autism spectrum disorders, compounded by poorly tested drugs, parental neglect and inadequate socialization.

 

[Azuremen]

I can state my opinion based on cases I am intimately acquainted with; (1) that this sort of crime did not commonly occur decades ago like it does today.

The rates have gone up but it has been more of a slow and steady climb starting in the 60's than suddenly rampages. Quite curious how you are intimately familiar with this all.

(2) the most likely underlying cause of many of these sorts of crimes is autism spectrum disorders, compounded by poorly tested drugs, parental neglect and inadequate socialization.

Autism diagnosis has climbed hilariously in the past two decades, but the existence of it certainly isn't a new thing. So that moves onto the next bits, the drugs (SSRIs are fairly well understood at this point) and the parental neglect. And by that, I can only assume you mean this generation of entitled "everyone is a winner" kids that have been doted on for ages and told they're a special snow flake? Which generally is compounded by having an autism diagnosis, only helping them to excuse why they can't play nice with others. The inadequate socialization then follows because of poor parenting.

 

[Dotini]

Quite curious how you are intimately familiar with this all.

My brother's first son, and the sons of a number of my closest friends unfortunately fit the general scheme of autism, drug treatment, parental neglect, incomplete socialization, and lives of alienation and crime.

Autism diagnosis has climbed hilariously in the past two decades, but the existence of it certainly isn't a new thing. So that moves onto the next bits, the drugs (SSRIs are fairly well understood at this point) and the parental neglect. And by that, I can only assume you mean this generation of entitled "everyone is a winner" kids that have been doted on for ages and told they're a special snow flake? Which generally is compounded by having an autism diagnosis, only helping them to excuse why they can't play nice with others. The inadequate socialization then follows because of poor parenting.

That in bold is not exactly what I had in mind. But in general, I think we are in agreement.

 

[Azuremen]

My brother's first son, and the sons of a number of my closest friends unfortunately fit the general scheme of autism, drug treatment, parental neglect, incomplete socialization, and lives of alienation and crime.

Ah, so things I have plenty of first and second hand experience with Well, minus a life of crime - there was only that one run in with the SoCal cops. Unless you count my media acquisitions on my computer, then maybe I'm a mastermind.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I think the question of total social disconnection enabling the complete apathy towards the lives, or deaths of those that surround us is an issue that has nothing to do specifically with Autism, drug treatment, or parental neglect.

Just my 1 cent.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I think the question of total social disconnection enabling the complete apathy towards the lives, or deaths of those that surround us is an issue that has nothing to do specifically with Autism, drug treatment, or parental neglect.

Just my 1 cent.

Absolutely. If sociopathic/pyschopathic acts of human destruction only occured in such a narrow band then it would be much easier to predict them. Sadly they don't, and it isn't.

I stand by my earlier opinion; the kid seems, to all intents and purposes, a pretty normally sulky whingy spoilt kid. The sad thing is that within him, unlike the huge majority of people, those feelings of badness expressed themselves through unthinkable violence.

 

[Zenith]

He was basically Mr. Nice guy, educated, good-looking, slightly different, living in a provincial but probably culturally incestuous area, in the wrong era, aiming for top-bracket women who like pigs, and was deeply, deeply frustrated with it all. Yep, I know what he means as I've been there, as have a couple of friends who have been strangers to the place where we live, but a stronger man takes to the challenge of addressing the problem, rather than complaining and shooting people up. I can't help thinking that somehow he's turned down lots of less attractive women along the way.....maybe someone could confirm?

Yes, slobs and losers with beautiful girls....it's common place, but that's the very attraction for women that have their choice. He should have moved to Asia (where they like nice men), or just aimed at his target market locally, ie. a bit lower with girls who don't flaunt it whilst trying to improve his technique to make up for a lesser personality.

The full manifesto :

http://www.scribd.com/doc/225960813...s-shooting-suspect-My-Twisted-World-manifesto

More like his biography from his birth to death, interesting read from start to about halfway. I feel really sorry for him now

Oh gee, you mean the killer's own manifesto makes him look like the victim?

Give me a break. This guy was beyond privileged. Girls don't owe him a "chance", they don't owe him anything. His intense superiority complex is why he murdered and he deserves no sympathy. Giving validation to his insane sense of entitlement is so pathetic.

 

[Brend]

I think that in situations like this, it makes sense to try and see the killings from both sides. However, life is totally unfair and how you handle it is what decides who and what you are as a person. Killing people is an unforgivable sin in my eyes, even for those who are not right in the head mentally.

 

[Blitz24]

I'd have felt bad if he committed suicide. I do not feel bad if he chooses to kill innocent people who were basically random strangers because he felt "wronged" by being single.

 

[soundtiger95]

I'd have felt bad if he committed suicide. I do not feel bad if he chooses to kill innocent people who were basically random strangers because he felt "wronged" by being single.

This is how I feel as well, to an extent.

I skimmed through his manifesto and after reading that, it seems that many people are making this out to be something much simpler than it really is. He didn't become this way just because he was shot down by a couple of girls. That was just one of the many things that contributed to his behavior. Throughout his life he felt jealous and inferior to others and thought he was being looked down upon. Once he got into school it got worse and people would make fun of him and call him names and were just generally mean to him. If you combined that with his views of society and his mental state you have a recipe for disaster. He was treated like garbage by his peers and no matter how good your life is and how great of a family you have it doesn't make you feel any better.

If he had committed suicide then this would have been another bullying story. But since he killed innocent people everyone will ignore that fact. The real issue here is that people do look down on others that are different which then drives them to do terrible things.

I have (probably) an unpopular opinion when it comes to things like this: When you drive someone to feel terrible about their life, what do you expect to happen?

They're going to take it out on either themselves or other people. I'm not saying that it is the right thing to do or that I agree with what he did but this is what happens. I guess my view on this whole thing is that I feel bad for him and feel bad for the people he killed and their families. Just a terrible situation all around. However, in a weird way, I can understand why he did this.

 

[Azuremen]

Give me a break. This guy was beyond privileged. Girls don't owe him a "chance", they don't owe him anything.

I see this mindset far too often in the socially awkward groups, such as nerds and geeks and members of GTPlanet posting in the relationship thread. This weird sense of entitlement built from some self perception of being a nice guy. It needs to stop, along with this mindset that society owes them in general.

If he had committed suicide then this would have been another bullying story. But since he killed innocent people everyone will ignore that fact. The real issue here is that people do look down on others that are different which then drives them to do terrible things.

Oh look, blame society. From someone who I can only guess was born in 90's.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The real issue here is that people do look down on others that are different...

True, which is the same thing as us looking up at others that are different.

which then drives them to do terrible things.

No, that seems to be an erroneous extrapolation. Which drives a very very tiny percentage to do terrible things. Of course, some of the people doing terrible things aren't driven by social reasoning at all.

You can apply your reasoning pretty well to this case in hindsight but not much further.

 

[LeMansAid]

I don't believe a single word spoken in the videos. The whole thing seems like a badly acted overlay to the truth.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the truth is that he acted out due to things that happened, rather than things that didn't happen, and concocted a story that smothered shame.

Just my initial thoughts, and suggests no increased/decreased empathy or condemnation in respect to the known details.

 

[soundtiger95]

I see this mindset far too often in the socially awkward groups, such as nerds and geeks and members of GTPlanet posting in the relationship thread. This weird sense of entitlement built from some self perception of being a nice guy. It needs to stop, along with this mindset that society owes them in general.




Oh look, blame society. From someone who I can only guess was born in 90's.

Your entire post just makes me believe that you're the type of person who was given everything in life and has had no problems dealing with anyone or anything. You probably had it easy when dealing with people. Not everyone has had the same privileges. By grouping people like nerds, geeks and the people who post in that thread together the way you did just makes you look like someone who looks down on them and sees yourself as above them. That is just as bad as the mindset of the person who committed these acts.

How am I blaming society? Please explain.

True, which is the same thing as us looking up at others that are different.



No, that seems to be an erroneous extrapolation. Which drives a very very tiny percentage to do terrible things. Of course, some of the people doing terrible things aren't driven by social reasoning at all.

You can apply your reasoning pretty well to this case in hindsight but not much further.

Agree with the first part. However, I believe looking up to others is (in most cases) not as destructive.

I can't agree with the second part. There are many, many people who commit violent acts because people were terrible to them. Not necessarily against others. Most of the time the harm is self inflicted.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I can't agree with the second part. There are many, many people who commit violent acts because people were terrible to them. Not necessarily against others. Most of the time the harm is self inflicted.

I was being picky; the original poster implied that one might automatically follow from the other. I was pointing out that such a statement is true.

Your point about when the destruction is direct inwards is thought provoking, and obvious now you point it out Definitely a much more common way of dealing with the turmoil, sadly.

 

[soundtiger95]

I was being picky; the original poster implied that one might automatically follow from the other. I was pointing out that such a statement is true.

Your point about when the destruction is direct inwards is thought provoking, and obvious now you point it out Definitely a much more common way of dealing with the turmoil, sadly.

Sorry about that. Should have made it clearer. And yes it is sad, but it unfortunately happens often.

 

[Azuremen]

Your entire post just makes me believe that you're the type of person who was given everything in life and has had no problems dealing with anyone or anything. You probably had it easy when dealing with people. Not everyone has had the same privileges.

Right, being the geeky kid with no friends and a dead mom in grade school certainly made me fit in. Along with being bullied for goofy hair cuts and liking science. And the color purple. Then no girl for all of high school, very few friends, and being laughed at for having the techno mobile. Hell, I'm certain I've more than a few emotional rants about how I'm the good guy and girls are dumb.

Man, my social life has been so easy.

By grouping people like nerds, geeks and the people who post in that thread together the way you did just makes you look like someone who looks down on them and sees yourself as above them. That is just as bad as the mindset of the person who committed these acts.

Well, considering I use to play Magic The Gathering and have a DCI Card from the 90's, 3 Warhammer 40k armies, was a Master level StarCraft 2 player, studied engineering and physics, like anime, and listen to electronic music (like, starting in the 90's) I certainly get called a nerd and geek. I just don't consider it negative at this point.

But please, continue to assume how I must have been the socialite growing up and everything came easy. All while knowing literally nothing about me.

My guess at your age, by the way, was because of the number in your user name and PSN.

How am I blaming society? Please explain.

By stating other people drive/force the "victim" to action. No one forces a person to mass murder, nor suicide. The actions are ultimately the choice of the person acting them. By stating the real issue is how society reacts to other people being different as the drive to such violent, you are blaming society for this.

 

[IneedSchool]

According to the news, this dude suffers from Asperger's syndrome, which is what I have. I'm getting suspicious because I've also heard Adam Lamza has Aspergers (or another type of autism). Well, now my day is complete.

 

[LeMansAid]

@Azuremen Might be the whole relative thing at play. If your life can be portrayed as easy, another can believe more readily that there's was comparatively difficult, and that they are therefore less culpable for failings.

But in the end. If you've had to overcome, be pleased if it's been done so well that the scars are not readily visable.

 

[Azuremen]

@Azuremen Might be the whole relative thing at play. If your life can be portrayed as easy, another can believe more readily that there's was comparatively difficult, and that they are therefore less culpable for failings.

But in the end. If you've had to overcome, be pleased if it's been done so well that the scars are not readily visable.

Likely so on the relative bit. My life wasn't super fun times but it most certainly could have been worse. But in terms of social aptitude, I was quite the failure. The last decade has been spent sorting that all out and I'm fairly content with where I've arrived, with fairly well healed "scars."

Which is probably why I get a bit bent out of shape when a teenager blames society and pulls excuses for their social failings. Especially when it heavily stems from wanting to be accepted into society but constantly blame society on being against them - if it is against a person, they shouldn't worry about their approval (outside of blatant discrimination) and just move on to more understanding social circles.

Or simply become so comfortable in who they are that people find them interesting and enjoyable to have as company.

 

[phillgt2002]

I see this mindset far too often in the socially awkward groups, such as nerds and geeks and members of GTPlanet posting in the relationship thread. This weird sense of entitlement built from some self perception of being a nice guy. It needs to stop, along with this mindset that society owes them in general.

lol

I post there regularly but I'm usually not the one complaining. I hate the 'nice guy' stuff because the guys complaining think that everyone is against them and write off their own flaws/problems.

 

[soundtiger95]

Right, being the geeky kid with no friends and a dead mom in grade school certainly made me fit in. Along with being bullied for goofy hair cuts and liking science. And the color purple. Then no girl for all of high school, very few friends, and being laughed at for having the techno mobile. Hell, I'm certain I've more than a few emotional rants about how I'm the good guy and girls are dumb.

Man, my social life has been so easy.

Well I am sorry to hear all that. But after going through all that, I would assume you would know where I'm coming from. Not everyone can handle situations as well as you did.

Well, considering I use to play Magic The Gathering and have a DCI Card from the 90's, 3 Warhammer 40k armies, was a Master level StarCraft 2 player, studied engineering and physics, like anime, and listen to electronic music (like, starting in the 90's) I certainly get called a nerd and geek. I just don't consider it negative at this point.

But please, continue to assume how I must have been the socialite growing up and everything came easy. All while knowing literally nothing about me.

My guess at your age, by the way, was because of the number in your user name and PSN.

To be fair you did assume that all socially awkward people are like the way you described in your previous post. Do you know all of them or are you just guessing? Also, just because you do those things doesn't mean you can't feel superior to others who do the same thing.

By stating other people drive/force the "victim" to action. No one forces a person to mass murder, nor suicide. The actions are ultimately the choice of the person acting them. By stating the real issue is how society reacts to other people being different as the drive to such violent, you are blaming society for this.

If you don't think that people can effect how people think of themselves then you must be oblivious. If you're told that you aren't good enough many times and by many people from a young age you're most likely going to believe it. Not everyone can dig themselves out of that situation, especially if their home life isn't great.

I may agree with you if you said that something like a mass murder isn't totally driven by how society treats a person. But suicide is a different story in my opinion.

 

[soundtiger95]

Likely so on the relative bit. My life wasn't super fun times but it most certainly could have been worse. But in terms of social aptitude, I was quite the failure. The last decade has been spent sorting that all out and I'm fairly content with where I've arrived, with fairly well healed "scars."

Which is probably why I get a bit bent out of shape when a teenager blames society and pulls excuses for their social failings. Especially when it heavily stems from wanting to be accepted into society but constantly blame society on being against them - if it is against a person, they shouldn't worry about their approval (outside of blatant discrimination) and just move on to more understanding social circles.

Or simply become so comfortable in who they are that people find them interesting and enjoyable to have as company.

And you're talking about assuming things?

So let me get this straight. I'm making excuses for my social fallings because I have a different opinion than you? That's an absolute joke. I have no desire to be accepted by society and I feel perfectly comfortable where I am (I really don't care how people view me socially). My problem is with people like you speaking in absolutes and thinking that everyone is just like them and can deal with things the same way. You say it could have been worse. Well guess what? Other people have it worse and handle it much differently than you.

Also, age doesn't bring wisdom if one isn't willing to open their mind, listen and learn.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

So what's your practical experience with people who go on sociopathic shooting rampages?

Limited. But I do have experience dealing with people who have Asperger's, which the gunman did. And I would not tell him that he is a pussy or a coward or a loser or any combination thereof at any point from when I first met him to when he pulled his gun out. So at the very least, I'm more likely to be alive than Imari, whose approach amounts to "stop bitching and do something productive".

 

[TenEightyOne]

As I find out how many of my co-users on this forum also have Asperger's or similar HFAs I suddenly realise (a) Why I feel so at home and (b) Why you're all so bloody annoying

 

[Azuremen]

Well I am sorry to hear all that. But after going through all that, I would assume you would know where I'm coming from. Not everyone can handle situations as well as you did.

I certainly handled a lot of my early twenties with heavy drinking and so on. When I got divorced and my father died, oh boy was that a show.

I do understand where you are coming from, but having been there, the awkward socially inept person, I have very little sympathy for the "woe is me" attitude. Especially about girls. All too often I see awkward young men bitching about how girls are stupid to go after "thugs" and effectively scheming to court some girl. The reality is the sooner you stop worrying about it all the sooner it just works.

To be fair you did assume that all socially awkward people are like the way you described in your previous post. Do you know all of them or are you just guessing? Also, just because you do those things doesn't mean you can't feel superior to others who do the same thing.

I never stated all socially awkward people are, did I? Please don't read into things in this manner.

As for your use of a double negative... I don't feel superior. I do, however, know I'm happier with who I am and don't lament on about how I can't get a girl friend, etc.

If you don't think that people can effect how people think of themselves then you must be oblivious.

Well thank goodness I never said anything to those lines.

If you're told that you aren't good enough many times and by many people from a young age you're most likely going to believe it. Not everyone can dig themselves out of that situation, especially if their home life isn't great.

People can dig themselves in and out of anything, that is what I've seen in my near 30 years of living. The attitude of "well, what if someone can't" pretty much justifies them never even trying.

I may agree with you if you said that something like a mass murder isn't totally driven by how society treats a person. But suicide is a different story in my opinion.

Well, that is your opinion. The reality is suicide is a process built from a person's internal struggle. While other people may not help with the cause, they also do not force a person to put a gun to their head and pull the trigger.

The attitude you have is what I refer to as differed accountability, which is this idea that you aren't entirely responsible for your own actions. Why? Various reasons ranging from the government to feels, but the idea gets brought up to excuse the poor choices of a person as if they were forced into making some terrible choice by others. This attitude has been on the raise over the past years, and while I use to agree with it to some extent when I was younger and filled with feels, I've come to realize it is just a means to find an excuse for one's actions.

Also, the moment you give strangers the power to "drive" you to action, the moment you've lost touch in what matters, at least in my opinion.

And you're talking about assuming things?

So let me guess this straight. I'm making excuses for my social fallings because I have a different opinion than you? That's an absolute joke. I have no desire to be accepted by society and I feel perfectly comfortable where I am (I really don't care how people view me socially). My problem is with people like you speaking in absolutes and thinking that everyone is just like them and can deal with things the same way. You say it could have been worse. Well guess what? Other people have it worse and handle it much differently than you.

Also, age doesn't bring wisdom if one isn't willing to open their mind, listen and learn.

Well, you've gone and assumed a whole bunch of things here. Like, I'm not even sure where to start, honestly. If you think I'm talking in absolutes, or assumed anything about you besides your age, I'm sorry but you're mistaken.

As I find out how many of my co-users on this forum also have Asperger's or similar HFAs I suddenly realise (a) Why I feel so at home and (b) Why you're all so bloody annoying

The huge increase in Autism/Asperger's diagnosis in the 90's likely have something to do with it, along with the tendency for Internet communities, which remove the general awkwardness of non-verbal communication, being a haven for those who suffer.