Isla Vista Killing Rampage. May 23rd 2014

[soundtiger95]

I certainly handled a lot of my early twenties with heavy drinking and so on. When I got divorced and my father died, oh boy was that a show.

I do understand where you are coming from, but having been there, the awkward socially inept person, I have very little sympathy for the "woe is me" attitude. Especially about girls. All too often I see awkward young men bitching about how girls are stupid to go after "thugs" and effectively scheming to court some girl. The reality is the sooner you stop worrying about it all the sooner it just works.

I do agree with you on this.

I never stated all socially awkward people are, did I? Please don't read into things in this manner.

As for your use of a double negative... I don't feel superior. I do, however, know I'm happier with who I am and don't lament on about how I can't get a girl friend, etc.



Well thank goodness I never said anything to those lines.

Well when you wrote "I see this mindset far too often in the socially awkward groups...", that is a form of generalizing and assuming. You're grouping together all socially awkward people when that is impossible to do since there are so many different factors.

You can still dislike people who are like you. I've known people who do certain things but when other people do them they hate them for it. I don't know if it's because they want it all for themselves or if it's something else but it is certainty a odd conundrum.

People can dig themselves in and out of anything, that is what I've seen in my near 30 years of living. The attitude of "well, what if someone can't" pretty much justifies them never even trying.

This is where I disagree. There are so many differences, so many variations in how people think and function. A person can try all they want but if enough force is being pushed back, it may be to hard to overcome. I agree that for many people it should be easy to get back up when you're knocked down but for some it is an impossible battle to win.

Well, that is your opinion. The reality is suicide is a process built from a person's internal struggle. While other people may not help with the cause, they also do not force a person to put a gun to their head and pull the trigger.

The attitude you have is what I refer to as differed accountability, which is this idea that you aren't entirely responsible for your own actions. Why? Various reasons ranging from the government to feels, but the idea gets brought up to excuse the poor choices of a person as if they were forced into making some terrible choice by others. This attitude has been on the raise over the past years, and while I use to agree with it to some extent when I was younger and filled with feels, I've come to realize it is just a means to find an excuse for one's actions.

Also, the moment you give strangers the power to "drive" you to action, the moment you've lost touch in what matters, at least in my opinion.

While someone may not physically force another person to commit suicide, the psychological effects someone or a group of people have on an individual can be large. Also many people who commit suicide don't want to die, but instead end the life they are currently living. There is a difference between the two.

You're second thought is a bit insulting to me but I'll let it pass a bit since I also made some assumptions about you earlier. I do not have an idea in my head that people aren't responsible for their own actions. I don't let other people make decisions for me no matter who they are and I don't fall into the trap of doing something because everyone else does it. I think for myself and with an open mind. I'm not your typical kid when it comes to that. And I hate when people try to tell me what I think.

I do agree that people make excuses for themselves but I wouldn't say this applies to the topic we are discussing.

The bolded part is exactly what I am talking about. People can drive someone to lose touch with what matters and change their attitude about life and themselves. It is completely possible.

Well, you've gone and assumed a whole bunch of things here. Like, I'm not even sure where to start, honestly. If you think I'm talking in absolutes, or assumed anything about you besides your age, I'm sorry but you're mistaken.

Well my assumptions are based on the type of things you post and how you act. Your assumptions are made up and made blindly.

And you did say I was blaming society when I clearly wasn't then went on to say "....when a teenager blames society and pulls excuses for their social failings. Especially when it heavily stems from wanting to be accepted into society but constantly blame society on being against them" obviously referring to me. I'd say those are assumptions but we'll let those slide.

 

[Imari]

Limited. But I do have experience dealing with people who have Asperger's, which the gunman did. And I would not tell him that he is a pussy or a coward or a loser or any combination thereof at any point from when I first met him to when he pulled his gun out. So at the very least, I'm more likely to be alive than Imari, whose approach amounts to "stop bitching and do something productive".

I like how you think that I'm stupid enough to actually tell a psychopath my opinion of his mental state.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I like how you think that I'm stupid enough to actually tell a psychopath my opinion of his mental state.

And I like the way you assume he would be wearing a badge that says "I'M A SOCIOPATH - ASK ME HOW!"

Sociopaths generally have no empathy, but the learn how to express what they should be feeling in a given situation, and show it accordingly, even when they feel something else entirely. That's what makes them so dangerous.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I think there's a number of people here that don't properly comprehend how the internal inward spiral of despair/loathing/hatred/paranoia/fear/anxiety that can come with mental illness works, and how (as @prisonermonkeys points out above) it can be so well hidden from the outside world.

Whatever other issues/syndromes this guy had, or whatever situation he's in/been in, is almost a side issue, or at least only something that accelerated the process. Without something to break in to the thought processes going around and around in this guys head, the feelings and thoughts just begin to distill, to become purer, and more of a poison inside him. Once this spiral starts, and you begin to loose perspective on the outside world, even crazy, stupid or wrong decisions can appear logical, and I believe this is how someone can be left with the feeling that others left them no choice.

The Media flaunts sex and objects of desire at people from virtually every angle these days, not only that but it goes about showing the "Have not's" what the "Have's" have with an amazing efficiency... it drives envy and jealousy, like pouring petrol on a fire. Biologically speaking, guys tend to desire sex (typically with a woman) and to some degree companionship.... I do believe this desire is multiplied by today's media.. so a guy tries to get himself a girlfriend, and expects things to be as he expected, if/when they are not, he rages, from his point of view, he's done what he thinks he needs to (usually I guess being a 'nice guy') to get that reward... and this is where the entitlement comes in. Throw all of that in to the spiral I was talking about above... and this kind of event seems more inevitable than just possible. Especially if access to guns is readily available.

Again, this is just my 2 cents. I'm not trying to make excuses for what the guy did, but to take the attitude, such as @Imari does that you should just man-up and deal with it, really will never correctly address the problem.

 

[Imari]

Again, this is just my 2 cents. I'm not trying to make excuses for what the guy did, but to take the attitude, such as @Imari does that you should just man-up and deal with it, really will never correctly address the problem.

So again I ask the question that I asked of prisonermonkeys, and that was never really answered, what do you do? Obviously you don't lead with "Pull your **** together and act like a man", because that would be unbearably rude and catastrophically stupid, even with someone who wasn't mentally ill. But given that you've already exhausted the list of normal things that any sensible person tries first, kindness, listening, problem solving, coaching, therapy, and so on, what do you do?

One of his therapists called the police. He or she had seemingly run out of options, and probably thought there was enough danger there that he potentially needed to be restrained. Is that the right answer, lock the guy up? Maybe.

I'd love it if someone would actually start talking about what the right things to do with someone like this are, instead of telling me I'm wrong. Yeah, so I'm wrong. No surprises there, I'm wrong all the time. But if it were me, I wouldn't know what else to do with someone like that. Whatever I did though, I'd be trying to help, and I don't see just letting the guy be as helping anyone. He's hardly just going to grow out of this.

If my responses are wrong, teach me what would be right in case I ever do meet someone like this. If I'm in the situation it'd be great if I could actually be of some help to the person. But without any advice from people who at least seem like they know more than me, yeah, I'd still jump in there and give it my best try. If that results in me getting a bullet in the face, so be it.

It'd sure be nice if smarter, more experienced people would actually dispense advice rather than just sniping though.

 

[mirial]

Odds are he chased off lots of girls that may have been interested at first. Though I wouldn't call top-bracket like pigs and would really, really evaluate what the hell you're saying, because it screams inexperience and ignorance. .

That's certainly possible, although he only seems to mention 'beautiful women' in his video, so either they're all beauties where he lived, or he was only interested in having a beautiful girl, whilst passing over many that would have been interested in him, warts and all. A trophy girlfriend would have confirmed his social acceptance perhaps.

As for inexperience and ignorance? I don't think so. This is why I mention the possibility of the area being provincial, where girls are more likely to go with the their intuition and cultural norms, thus their preference for bad boys and clowns. It's well known most pretty girls like jerks because they are fun, confident but manageable enough for them to be changed. But I'm also aware that the more intellectual pretty girls in a vocation out there do go for nice-guy geeks. I keep mentioning pretty girls, because ultimately, they have the most choice, and it decides what sort of life they will have.

And the Asian comment just has me rolling my eyes. The frequency I hear this comment from so called "nice" guys that have trouble getting girls in Western countries is just baffling.

Again, this is with regard to the provincial thing I was on about where we might have a trend for a type of man that is preferred, and from accounts, I believe men regardless of stature, are respected more in Asia (generally). But that would be defeatist to go to that extreme.....and pretty sad. Whether this is genetic or cultural, or both, I don't know. Or just another myth from your average frustrated chump!

 

[MatskiMonk]

So again I ask the question that I asked of prisonermonkeys, and that was never really answered, what do you do? Obviously you don't lead with "Pull your **** together and act like a man", because that would be unbearably rude and catastrophically stupid, even with someone who wasn't mentally ill. But given that you've already exhausted the list of normal things that any sensible person tries first, kindness, listening, problem solving, coaching, therapy, and so on, what do you do?

One of his therapists called the police. He or she had seemingly run out of options, and probably thought there was enough danger there that he potentially needed to be restrained. Is that the right answer, lock the guy up? Maybe.

I'd love it if someone would actually start talking about what the right things to do with someone like this are, instead of telling me I'm wrong. Yeah, so I'm wrong. No surprises there, I'm wrong all the time. But if it were me, I wouldn't know what else to do with someone like that. Whatever I did though, I'd be trying to help, and I don't see just letting the guy be as helping anyone. He's hardly just going to grow out of this.

If my responses are wrong, teach me what would be right in case I ever do meet someone like this. If I'm in the situation it'd be great if I could actually be of some help to the person. But without any advice from people who at least seem like they know more than me, yeah, I'd still jump in there and give it my best try. If that results in me getting a bullet in the face, so be it.

It'd sure be nice if smarter, more experienced people would actually dispense advice rather than just sniping though.

If I knew the answers, my late teens, twenties and early thirties would have gone differently, I wouldn't have the scars I do now, and all my internal bits would probably still function properly. It's possible to know what the answer to something isn't, even if you don't know what the answer is.

It's just my opinion, and not an answer as to how to treat the individual, but in general society and the media needs to change, and the healthcare system needs to change somewhat (although experiences with mental dis-order treatment will vary a lot from one country to the next). Gun laws is a can of worms in this situation, but it's a factor in events like this.

 

[Agent_47]

Gun laws is a can of worms in this situation, but it's a factor in events like this.

How?

 

[MatskiMonk]

How?

You mean, how is it a can of worms, or how is it a factor?

 

[Agent_47]

You mean, how is it a can of worms, or how is it a factor?

How is it a factor?

 

[MatskiMonk]

How is it a factor?

The readily available supply and proliferation of tools designed to be efficient at killing made it easier for this guy to shoot and kill people. I've no intention of turning this into an anti-gun debate, because, as I said I know it's a can of worms -but the lesser the gun control the easier it becomes to shoot someone, or put another way, if he'd not had a gun, he wouldn't have shot anybody. If it had not been the easiest option for him (along with running over people), he would not have taken it. That's about as simple as I can put it without inciting the rage of the GTP gun owners. Just in case they do turn up and my point isn't clear, I'm saying it's much harder to shoot someone without a gun.

 

[Agent_47]

The readily available supply and proliferation of tools designed to be efficient at killing made it easier for this guy to shoot and kill people. I've no intention of turning this into an anti-gun debate, because, as I said I know it's a can of worms -but the lesser the gun control the easier it becomes to shoot someone, or put another way, if he'd not had a gun, he wouldn't have shot anybody. If it had not been the easiest option for him (along with running over people), he would not have taken it. That's about as simple as I can put it without inciting the rage of the GTP gun owners. Just in case they do turn up and my point isn't clear, I'm saying it's much harder to shoot someone without a gun.

You know, he did use a knife and a car as a weapon too. Should we start background checking for those too? Guns have a legitimate use in society. I would not say that less gun control would make it easier. Back before 1968, you could just walk into any hardware store and buy a gun no questions asked. Why didn't we have this level of crime back then? That's why I say that I don't think guns or the supposed 'easy' access to them is the real problem here.

 

[MatskiMonk]

That's why I say that I don't think guns or the supposed 'easy' access to them is the real problem here.

I don't think it's the real problem either, I just said it was a factor. If he'd have just used his car or a knife, maybe the body count would have been less, maybe it would have been higher, who knows. But it's an effective tool, and apparently a common choice for those people intent on causing chaos and death, I don't think it's such a leap to suggest it is a common choice because it's accessible and effective.

But as I say, this probably doesn't want to turn into the gun thread.

FWIW, given how drawn out and structured his anguish was I'm surprised he didn't put more thought into actually committing mass murder more effectively.

 

[Agent_47]

I don't think it's the real problem either, I just said it was a factor. If he'd have just used his car or a knife, maybe the body count would have been less, maybe it would have been higher, who knows. But it's an effective tool, and apparently a common choice for those people intent on causing chaos and death, I don't think it's such a leap to suggest it is a common choice because it's accessible and effective.

But as I say, this probably doesn't want to turn into the gun thread.

FWIW, given how drawn out and structured his anguish was I'm surprised he didn't put more thought into actually committing mass murder more effectively.

I see your point. I am not willing to take peoples' rights away, however, simply because a few abuse them. And yeah, let's not get too off topic here.

I'm curious, did the cops ever visit him?

 

[photonrider]

I'm curious, did the cops ever visit him?

Yes. He accused his roomates of stealing three candles.

_____________________

He has also been in therapy since he was eight.

 

[Sanji Himura]

I just know that I am about to open another can of worms here, but it is medically necessary. I also intentionally backed off from replying in this thread before I got all of my ducks in a row. I know that the left is pushing for stricter gun control laws, even though the fact that half of his victims were killed by other means seems to have escaped the mainstream media's notice. If the media wishes to play the agenda game, let's play:

Round 1: Reproductive Rights

"If women continue to have rights, they will only hinder the advancement of the human race by breeding with degenerate men and creating
stupid, degenerate offspring"

“The mass of ignorant Negroes still breed carelessly and disastrously, so that the increase among Negroes, even more than the increase among whites, is from that portion of the population least intelligent and fit, and least able to rear their children properly.” – Margaret Sanger

Round 2: Contributions to Society

“All women must be quarantined like the plague they are, so that they can be used in a manner that actually benefits a civilized society.”

If you can’t justify your existence, if you’re not pulling your weight in the social boat, if you’re not producing as much as you consume or perhaps a little more, then, clearly, we cannot use the organizations of our society for the purpose of keeping you alive, because your life does not benefit us and it can’t be of very much use to yourself.” – George Bernard Shaw

One note, Shaw can be seen on film supporting dictators such as Hitler and Stalin during World War 2. Do your own research.

Round 3: What to do with all those people you don't deem worthy?

“I would have an enormous tower built just for myself, where I can oversee the entire concentration camp and gleefully watch them all die”

“A great many people would have to be put out of existence simply because it wastes other people’s time to look after them.” - George Bernard Shaw

Shaw again.

Round 4: More on Reproductive Rights...

“Women should not have the right to choose who to mate and breed with. That decision should be made for them by rational men of intelligence.”

“Every feeble-minded girl or woman of the hereditary type, especially of the moron class, should be segregated during the reproductive period. Otherwise, she is almost certain to bear imbecile children, who in turn are just as certain to breed other defectives.”- Margaret Sanger

More from Sanger.

Here is the real motivation from the shooter:

The upside of moving to the apartment was that my mother acquired high speed internet. I was able to play World of Warcraft on her computer, along with Halo 2 on Xbox Live. This was the point when my social life ended completely. I would never have a satisfying social life ever again. It was the beginning of a very lonely period of my life, in which my only social interactions would be online through video games, with the sole exception being my friendship with James. The ability to play video games with people online temporarily filled in the social void. I got caught up in it, and I was too young and naïve to realize the severity of how far I had fallen. I was too scared to accept it. This loss of a social life, coupled with the advent of puberty, caused me to die a little inside. It was too much for me to handle, and I stopped caring about my life and my future. I even stopped caring about what people thought of me. I hid myself away in the online World of Warcraft, a place where I felt comfortable and secure.

If you don't think that there is a direct link between video games and this senseless act of violence...

 

[TenEightyOne]

@Sanji Himura , is that your genuine conclusion?

And what's your point about Shaw "supporting dictators like Hitler and Stalin". Is that the same Hitler who wasn't such an isolated European leader up until 1939 and who invested heavily in US industry (the US, like many countries, forgot the post Great War limits on German industry and supplied them very happily, IBM being a notable giant)

And are we talking about the same Stalin who the US worked with during and after the War in Europe?

I'm not here to defend the man-ifesto but I'm not sure how your points inform debate on it, or how the ghosts you've raised are relevant?

 

[Azuremen]

If you don't think that there is a direct link between video games and this senseless act of violence...

So you're blaming video games for the actions of a psychopath?

Really?

On a related note, I read this article, titled How We All Miss the Point on School Shootings and it provides good commentary on the issue. And makes a point of how nothing makes someone into a mass killer even though society seems fixated on it.

Well when you wrote "I see this mindset far too often in the socially awkward groups...", that is a form of generalizing and assuming. You're grouping together all socially awkward people when that is impossible to do since there are so many different factors.

Actually, I was making an observation on what I see, based on my experience. You've gone and twisted it about in your head.

You can still dislike people who are like you. I've known people who do certain things but when other people do them they hate them for it. I don't know if it's because they want it all for themselves or if it's something else but it is certainty a odd conundrum.

I absolutely can dislike people I can relate to, but that isn't what I said nor was discussing. And you just described hypocrisy, which isn't exactly uncommon in society.

This is where I disagree. There are so many differences, so many variations in how people think and function. A person can try all they want but if enough force is being pushed back, it may be to hard to overcome. I agree that for many people it should be easy to get back up when you're knocked down but for some it is an impossible battle to win.

We will have to agree to disagree.

While someone may not physically force another person to commit suicide, the psychological effects someone or a group of people have on an individual can be large. Also many people who commit suicide don't want to die, but instead end the life they are currently living. There is a difference between the two.

You're second thought is a bit insulting to me but I'll let it pass a bit since I also made some assumptions about you earlier. I do not have an idea in my head that people aren't responsible for their own actions. I don't let other people make decisions for me no matter who they are and I don't fall into the trap of doing something because everyone else does it. I think for myself and with an open mind. I'm not your typical kid when it comes to that. And I hate when people try to tell me what I think.

I've at no point told you what you think (which is amusing given how often you've told me what I apparently think, then condemned hypocrisy) and the "I'm not a typical kid" line is beyond cliche.

Ending the life you are currently living and dying are the same thing, you are playing with semantics.

I do agree that people make excuses for themselves but I wouldn't say this applies to the topic we are discussing.

Except you did excuse, to some extent, his behavior when you said this

I have (probably) an unpopular opinion when it comes to things like this: When you drive someone to feel terrible about their life, what do you expect to happen?

Fairly hard to interpret this any other way.

The bolded part is exactly what I am talking about. People can drive someone to lose touch with what matters and change their attitude about life and themselves. It is completely possible.

Psychopathic killers are already out of touch with matters, they are not driven to that state. Please see the article I linked above.

Well my assumptions are based on the type of things you post and how you act. Your assumptions are made up and made blindly.

Your assumptions, so far, have been woefully poor. My assumptions have consisted of your age, and the rest of my commentary has been on the words and posts you've made.

And you did say I was blaming society when I clearly wasn't then went on to say "....when a teenager blames society and pulls excuses for their social failings. Especially when it heavily stems from wanting to be accepted into society but constantly blame society on being against them" obviously referring to me. I'd say those are assumptions but we'll let those slide.

Your narcissism, along with forgetfulness, are rather astounding. And the blaming society bit again goes back to this quote...

I have (probably) an unpopular opinion when it comes to things like this: When you drive someone to feel terrible about their life, what do you expect to happen?

 

[MatskiMonk]

On a related note, I read this article, titled How We All Miss the Point on School Shootings and it provides good commentary on the issue. And makes a point of how nothing makes someone into a mass killer even though society seems fixated on it.

I think that article is a little to keen to dissipate the focus from not just any single thing, but anything at all. Whilst it's probably true that computer games etc. don't make killers, I think such influences can break down the barriers that stop someone who probably is a fruitloop on the inside letting those feelings, ideas and desire get to the surface.

 

[Grayfox]

If you don't think that there is a direct link between video games and this senseless act of violence...

There is no link, nor will there ever be a real link.

There were no video games during World War 1, World War 2, any other war or the religious crusades.

Violence is human nature.

 

[Azuremen]

I think that article is a little to keen to dissipate the focus from not just any single thing, but anything at all. Whilst it's probably true that computer games etc. don't make killers, I think such influences can break down the barriers that stop someone who probably is a fruitloop on the inside letting those feelings, ideas and desire get to the surface.

But I feel the interest in those is just a symptom of the deeper issues, rather than a trigger to manifesting them. It is a huge leap to go from killing people in video games or shooting targets at a range to murdering people.

 

[tankuroded]

Did anyone knew that, allegedly, this attack was fuelled by "men's rights" stuff? 💡

 

[TenEightyOne]

Sorry, posted here in error. Post removed, mods please delete... sorry!

 

[GTboyz]

Idk why but this reminds me of Port Arthur Massacre. Not because of the reasons of the killings but it kinda leave a similar athmosphere to the time when i read about Port Arthur Massacre.